| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm, kahrl, PilzAdam: Volunteers? |
| 00:27 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: about weather. the values in the engine are not compatible with any worlds that used plants_lib. Can we please change this to something that won't leave e.g. palms buried in snow and ice? |
| 00:31 |
proller |
hmmmm, make np_heat np_humidity adjustable via params like other noises |
| 00:32 |
VanessaE |
I don't care if they can be configured, I just care if a user ends up with an existing world (read: their favorite server) that's been switched to use the new system and suddenly everything is growing in the wrong places. |
| 00:32 |
VanessaE |
(or appears to have grown) |
| 00:40 |
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| 02:52 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/9d556c70782d983b9534ac425386aa0501790118 |
| 03:10 |
VanessaE |
seems okay |
| 03:10 |
VanessaE |
(at least on a quick look at the code) |
| 03:11 |
VanessaE |
seasonv += (f32)p.X / 3000; // you can walk to area with other season |
| 03:11 |
VanessaE |
why no check against .Z also? |
| 03:14 |
VanessaE |
oh wait |
| 03:15 |
VanessaE |
hrm, no that's for humidity down there. |
| 03:21 |
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| 03:25 |
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| 03:26 |
hmmmm |
man... mapgen v7 produces terrain that looks like it's from the original FarCry |
| 03:27 |
hmmmm |
not sure if that's a good thing all the time |
| 03:27 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: see my commentary above? |
| 03:27 |
hmmmm |
i totally get what celeron means by "way too vast" though |
| 03:27 |
hmmmm |
yes, i did, that's proller's stuff though. |
| 03:27 |
VanessaE |
(re: temperature/humidity maps being compatible with plants_lib) |
| 03:27 |
hmmmm |
not mine |
| 03:28 |
VanessaE |
actually he's pretty certain you won't allow any changes to the settings |
| 03:29 |
hmmmm |
well I'm gonna have to change the default settings for heat and humidity eventually |
| 03:29 |
hmmmm |
the challenge is finding an appropriate distribution of values |
| 03:29 |
VanessaE |
you mean numerical distribution or geographical? |
| 03:29 |
hmmmm |
numerical |
| 03:29 |
VanessaE |
oh ok |
| 03:30 |
hmmmm |
i just never really got around to doing that because a). it'd screw up everybody's biomes they have defined for their games, and b). that part is boring, i just wanna code |
| 03:33 |
hmmmm |
grr :/ |
| 03:33 |
VanessaE |
http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/screenshot_692120453.png |
| 03:33 |
VanessaE |
here, this'll cheer you up slightly :D |
| 03:34 |
hmmmm |
what is it? |
| 03:34 |
VanessaE |
those are moretrees palms....buried under half a meter of snow :D |
| 03:35 |
hmmmm |
the snow ends at a block |
| 03:35 |
hmmmm |
i suppose that's mod-made or something? |
| 03:35 |
VanessaE |
don't mind that |
| 03:35 |
VanessaE |
that's just new terrain after the weather mod was installed. |
| 03:37 |
VanessaE |
figured the dichotomy would amuse you :) |
| 04:30 |
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| 05:10 |
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| 06:01 |
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| 06:55 |
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| 06:57 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/9a7bd417cb7278021290dd5bd0da43db8ed77056 |
| 07:27 |
kahrl_ |
hmmmm: is it possible that murmur_hash_64_ua accesses invalid memory? |
| 07:27 |
kahrl_ |
(if the input string to read_seed is not a multiple of 8 chars long and crosses a page boundary) |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
nope |
| 07:28 |
hmmmm |
as you can see, i take care of unaligned access.... i even say so |
| 07:29 |
kahrl_ |
oh that's what the switch is for :) |
| 07:30 |
kahrl_ |
yeah I shouldn't try to read code when tired |
| 07:31 |
hmmmm |
alright i have a better idea |
| 07:31 |
hmmmm |
i'll add an optional parameter onto engine.create_world which will be the seed, passed along to initializeWorld |
| 07:31 |
hmmmm |
which will write the initial map_meta.txt |
| 07:32 |
kahrl |
sounds good |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
but that still doesn't fix the face that there's not enough space to do anything with the formspec window |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
s/face/problem/ |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
why did i say face |
| 07:32 |
kahrl |
maybe pass mapgen parameters as well? (only the selected mapgen currently) |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
hey don't get cocky |
| 07:33 |
hmmmm |
next thing you're going to want is for me to pass the flags, and then the noise parameters, and then the... |
| 07:33 |
kahrl |
and everything in json please |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
oh i know why i said face |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
i meant to say fact but i made a typo and i'm too tired to notice it |
| 07:35 |
kahrl |
#876 does it by reducing the height of the games textlist |
| 07:37 |
hmmmm |
that's retarded |
| 07:37 |
hmmmm |
i mean the fact that you need to shorten another element to fit like..... 4 fields |
| 07:37 |
hmmmm |
i know what needs to be fixed next |
| 07:38 |
kahrl |
well you would have to change the size[] field |
| 07:38 |
kahrl |
which is hardcoded in mainmenu.lua:151 |
| 07:38 |
hmmmm |
oh |
| 07:38 |
hmmmm |
i thought it was a deeper problem than that |
| 07:39 |
kahrl |
I guess just check if tabbuilder.current_tab == "dialog_create_world" there |
| 07:40 |
hmmmm |
i'd rather spend 15 more minutes making a more elegant solution so that i don't need to hardcode a hack |
| 07:40 |
hmmmm |
i'll have each dialog specify a size as well |
| 08:27 |
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| 09:10 |
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| 09:19 |
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| 09:42 |
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| 10:07 |
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| 10:07 |
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| 10:15 |
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| 11:04 |
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| 13:47 |
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| 13:54 |
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| 13:54 |
proller |
hmmmm, weather moving look ok (iw works ;), commit it and i must update other my pulls |
| 14:15 |
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| 15:28 |
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| 16:14 |
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| 16:39 |
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| 16:40 |
hmmmm |
well I already did commit it last night |
| 16:41 |
proller |
ok |
| 16:42 |
proller |
i still want to commit weather and liquid branches |
| 16:43 |
proller |
it make weather 80% complete |
| 16:43 |
proller |
and liquid 95% |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
i need to take a look at those |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
about the waterfall thing..... not sure about that |
| 16:47 |
hmmmm |
a lot of people don't like it, and that'd totally screw up the way liquids work |
| 16:52 |
proller |
waterfall not ready |
| 16:52 |
proller |
its only after fast nodeupdate |
| 16:52 |
hmmmm |
then why make a pull request for it? |
| 16:52 |
proller |
do not enable liquids by default |
| 16:53 |
proller |
it was working, pull for discussion |
| 16:53 |
proller |
and math pull now in progress, but works |
| 16:54 |
proller |
last 4 pulls is ready and tested |
| 16:54 |
hmmmm |
oh, you should specify that in the pull request description, that it's not ready yet and you'd just like feedback |
| 16:55 |
proller |
[WIP] ok ? |
| 16:55 |
hmmmm |
yea |
| 16:57 |
proller |
edited |
| 16:58 |
proller |
hmmmm, also lot people dont like default liquids, because it does not seem as liquid |
| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
zz |
| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
a lot more people don't like finite liquids |
| 16:59 |
hmmmm |
we should have a poll and see exactly what percentage of people prefer finite liquids over old liquids |
| 17:00 |
proller |
don't like finite liquids because it not as in minecraft |
| 17:00 |
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| 17:00 |
proller |
yes, pool can show real likes |
| 17:00 |
proller |
poll 8) |
| 17:15 |
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| 17:15 |
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| 17:24 |
celeron55 |
has someone modified the layout of the forum? |
| 17:24 |
celeron55 |
the visual layout, that is |
| 17:25 |
thexyz |
where's screenshot? |
| 17:25 |
celeron55 |
it's not strictly broken, but for some reason i noticed that it uses the screen space on this laptop quite badly due to padding and margin |
| 17:26 |
thexyz |
that's punbb, what else would you expect |
| 17:26 |
celeron55 |
hmm, actually now i see why i noticed that |
| 17:27 |
celeron55 |
for some reason my browser had chosen a different page scaling factor than it usually uses |
| 17:27 |
celeron55 |
umm actually no |
| 17:30 |
celeron55 |
http://i.imgur.com/goFKra6.png |
| 17:31 |
celeron55 |
it looks like that, with my usual 90% scaling on this 1024px wide screen with tree style tabs like that; it roughly corresponds to an only slightly narrower view than 1024px which really should be expected to work reasonably well |
| 17:33 |
thexyz |
yes, I remember VanessaE complaining about something like that |
| 17:33 |
thexyz |
it's punbb |
| 17:33 |
celeron55 |
but nothing has changed, right? |
| 17:34 |
celeron55 |
anyway, this is a really crappy website layout by today's "responsive layout" standards; if you make the window narrower, it keeps the unnecessary information widely wisible and squeezes the titles to completely unreadable mess 8) |
| 17:35 |
thexyz |
yeah, the code won't change itself |
| 17:36 |
celeron55 |
i'm too tired to really think or code at the moment |
| 17:36 |
celeron55 |
i'd guess it would work out better if it used simply percentages for column sizes |
| 17:37 |
thexyz |
lol |
| 17:37 |
thexyz |
so naive |
| 17:37 |
thexyz |
mind me asking what colums are you talking about? |
| 17:37 |
celeron55 |
the topics/forum/replies/last post ones |
| 17:38 |
thexyz |
did you check the layout? |
| 17:38 |
thexyz |
it's a mess of <div>s and <li>s |
| 17:39 |
celeron55 |
i guess i'll have to... |
| 17:40 |
celeron55 |
okay so while it's clearly table data, some clever person thought it shouldn't use tables |
| 17:40 |
celeron55 |
well this is still probably doable *attempts something* |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
okay so what the fuck |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
left:952em |
| 17:47 |
celeron55 |
i wonder what kind of drugs the someone creating this layout was using |
| 17:48 |
celeron55 |
"text-indent:-999em;" |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
speaking of interface layouts |
| 17:48 |
celeron55 |
i'm not touching this crap; let's forget trying to fix it |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
do you think it's a bad idea to have each tabbuilder function report the formspec size |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
what i really want is to be able to modify it to be whatever for dialogs, but be the same size for all tabs, otherwise that'd go against the idea of a tab |
| 17:51 |
ShadowNinja |
thexyz: What forum software would you prefer? |
| 17:51 |
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| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
nevermind, i decided on an elegant way to do what i'd like |
| 18:00 |
thexyz |
ShadowNinja: something popular with nice code and clean interface (hint: it doesn't exist) |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
man, where is sapier |
| 18:06 |
ShadowNinja |
thexyz: vBulletin. :-D phpBB is popular and themable, but I don't know about the code, other than that it is more bloated than PunBB. |
| 18:06 |
Calinou |
vbulletin sucks |
| 18:06 |
Calinou |
the end |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
we're kind of waiting for at least the one django-based thing to mature |
| 18:07 |
celeron55 |
i don't remember the name though |
| 18:07 |
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| 18:10 |
thexyz |
ShadowNinja: vb 3 was good |
| 18:11 |
thexyz |
then it went shit and xenforo was created |
| 18:12 |
ShadowNinja |
vBulletin == Proprietary == I don't care how good it is. Was the Django forum DjangoBB? |
| 18:13 |
thexyz |
lol |
| 18:13 |
thexyz |
no |
| 18:13 |
thexyz |
there are no good enough forums written in python, period |
| 18:14 |
celeron55 |
it was some fancily named and nothing you can find by googling "django" and "forum" |
| 18:14 |
celeron55 |
if it even was django |
| 18:14 |
celeron55 |
also it could turn out shit as well, can't know |
| 18:15 |
thexyz |
c55 has got a bad memory but he's talking about http://misago-project.org/ |
| 18:16 |
proller |
hmmmm, one timer weather_update_time but 2 separate calls heat and humidity - sometimes calculations of one can lost, but it not big problem |
| 18:17 |
proller |
best way to update heat and humidity together |
| 18:17 |
thexyz |
it looks modern, it feels modern, unlike whateverBB's |
| 18:17 |
ShadowNinja |
That one looks nice. |
| 18:22 |
celeron55 |
maybe someone of us should give them a heads-up so they know there will be use for it if they get it right |
| 18:23 |
celeron55 |
altough they could like being unnoticed |
| 18:23 |
celeron55 |
it really depends on what kind of person the main dev is... |
| 18:24 |
thexyz |
I don't think the guy who's making it will care |
| 18:35 |
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| 18:39 |
hmmmm |
Oh |
| 18:39 |
hmmmm |
you're right, I didn't consider the case of the individual lua api calls |
| 18:40 |
hmmmm |
how do you want to proceed, would you rather call both updateBlockHeat and updateBlockHumidity, and throw away the result of whichever one isn't needed? |
| 18:42 |
proller |
its only way if one timer used |
| 18:43 |
proller |
liquid63 and weather updated |
| 19:18 |
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| 19:33 |
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| 19:39 |
proller |
#0 0x0000000000642e50 in ServerMap::updateBlockHeat () |
| 19:39 |
proller |
#1 0x00000000004500af in ModApiEnvMod::l_get_heat () |
| 19:41 |
* VanessaE |
peeks in |
| 19:41 |
proller |
block = getBlockNoCreateNoEx(getNodeBlockPos(p)); |
| 19:41 |
proller |
block->heat = heat; |
| 19:41 |
proller |
BOOM |
| 19:41 |
proller |
in my version was if(block != NULL) { block->heat = heat; |
| 19:41 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: it's worse than that - it cuts off topic subject if the zoom level is high enough |
| 19:48 |
hmmmm |
oooooooooh |
| 19:48 |
hmmmm |
here I was, under the presumption that it would never be null |
| 19:49 |
hmmmm |
right, need to take into account misbehaving mods |
| 19:49 |
hmmmm |
I'll fix that back |
| 20:02 |
ShadowNinja |
Back to 73 pulls. I have a sumple new one: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/929 sfan5 already agreed to it but never actually commited it. |
| 20:02 |
ShadowNinja |
simple* |
| 20:03 |
celeron55 |
that has already been discussed many times; also we don't use 2^x values without valid reason to use them |
| 20:04 |
thexyz |
ShadowNinja: what's the point? |
| 20:04 |
proller |
pi^x more reasonable |
| 20:04 |
lanxu |
so, what is the maximum value of the variable which stores 'max_users'? ;) |
| 20:04 |
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| 20:04 |
ShadowNinja |
thexyz: Minetest is very vulnerable to DoS attacks. |
| 20:04 |
celeron55 |
the result of those discussions is that the right way to fix stuff is to make the server able to handle a lot of players... but i guess 100 is still too much; it would be really useful to get some feedback from server admins about what is a usable number with the modifications in recent versions |
| 20:05 |
thexyz |
I doubt it can handle 32 tbh |
| 20:05 |
ShadowNinja |
>8 == lots of lag, at least on my server. |
| 20:05 |
thexyz |
yeah |
| 20:07 |
celeron55 |
well, how about defaulting to a limit of 10? |
| 20:07 |
ShadowNinja |
IMO it should be able to handle at least 10 without much lag. |
| 20:07 |
ShadowNinja |
Some servers go above that. |
| 20:07 |
celeron55 |
that lag is probably caused by the crappy network stack (that handles congestion control and stuff) |
| 20:08 |
celeron55 |
umm... or well, it's probably equally likely to be caused by CPU maxing out |
| 20:08 |
thexyz |
yeah |
| 20:08 |
thexyz |
it eats ~100% of cpu |
| 20:08 |
ShadowNinja |
I use 16 on my server, I haven't reached it yet, but I have gotten 12 or so. |
| 20:08 |
thexyz |
(well, it did last time we tested it) |
| 20:09 |
ShadowNinja |
Does lowering it to 10-20 seem better? Perhaps 16 or 15? |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
it should be lowered to a value that doesn't generally cause problems |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
it sounds like 20 is bad |
| 20:10 |
ShadowNinja |
Hmmm, by problems do you mean lots of lag? 8 will be exceded by a number of servers. |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
this is the default, not something that anyone has to stick to |
| 20:11 |
ShadowNinja |
And more powerfull servers like Vanessa's can probably deal with more players(If it weren't for all the mods) |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
the purpose of default settings is to minimize the need for most users to change settings |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
(and the "common server" is probably quite small) |
| 20:13 |
thexyz |
which is impossible since we don't have "average" servers |
| 20:13 |
ShadowNinja |
thexyz: How so? |
| 20:14 |
thexyz |
yeah |
| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
on my server, the most I've seen at one time was about 8 or 9 players. Given its specs and history, I'd say double that at the very most. |
| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
when it gets to around that many players, people start getting *some* lag, but most of that comes from new terrain I think. |
| 20:15 |
ShadowNinja |
Pull changed to 8. |
| 20:15 |
VanessaE |
(I have my server capped to 20) |
| 20:16 |
proller |
8 too small |
| 20:17 |
celeron55 |
10 or 15 |
| 20:17 |
proller |
13 |
| 20:17 |
ShadowNinja |
Most servers have 10-32. |
| 20:17 |
proller |
8) |
| 20:17 |
celeron55 |
12.5 |
| 20:18 |
ShadowNinja |
Changed to 15... |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
in fact I'd say the worst lag other than mapgen actually happens when people are signing on/off |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
(well, on) |
| 20:19 |
celeron55 |
by the way, is there any real-life occasion where having a different default setting for this would have had any effect? |
| 20:20 |
celeron55 |
people mention about DoS so i guess some server has been flooded with users |
| 20:21 |
celeron55 |
it would be useful to have written-down documentation about such somewhere so that people know what to expect and what to possibly fix |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: several servers got DoS'd a few months ago |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
that's the only thing I've seen personally |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
(and it was hardly a DoS, more like a slow flood) |
| 20:23 |
celeron55 |
so would this have had any effect on those? i guess they had set their user limits to lower already anyway? |
| 20:23 |
VanessaE |
only to the extent of making the server flood out sooner I guess |
| 20:24 |
VanessaE |
but if there are already legit users online, it would keep the server from just plain dying |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
i think i did some DoS-preventing work after that, but didn't touch the user limit |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
previously the server jammed and stuck completely, now it will recover at the exact moment the DoS stops |
| 20:25 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
so it's really less an issue |
| 20:26 |
VanessaE |
s/dying/becoming lagged beyond usability due to routine CPU load/ |
| 20:26 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 20:27 |
celeron55 |
anyway that latest pull could be merged |
| 20:35 |
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| 21:23 |
hmmmm |
minetest's server should've been designed from the ground up to scale |
| 21:24 |
hmmmm |
I feel as if things were slapped together in an ad-hoc way and now that it can't scale for shit is a result of the "oh well we'll optimize it later" sort of cavalier attitude |
| 21:24 |
hmmmm |
it'd also help if there were more things were event driven rather all handled in one huge step |
| 21:25 |
hmmmm |
s/there were // |
| 21:26 |
hmmmm |
basically what i'm saying is that making the minetest server offer better scalability is an entirely new project and you'd have to start over from square 1 |
| 21:27 |
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proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:34 |
proller |
https://github.com/proller/minetest/commit/a92c880da913949f065a62f83b69db3bb950becb - fix segfault |
| 21:34 |
proller |
hmmmm, you or me? |
| 21:34 |
hmmmm |
you do it |
| 21:34 |
PilzAdam |
"Fix segfault" is not a good commit message |
| 21:35 |
proller |
Segfault fix - better? |
| 21:35 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 21:35 |
VanessaE |
I think he means to explain why it fixes it :) |
| 21:36 |
hmmmm |
how about, "Fix null dereference in weather update functions" |
| 21:36 |
PilzAdam |
"Fix segfault in updating heat/humidity" |
| 21:38 |
proller |
done |
| 21:39 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/927 MSVC needs this for M_PI |
| 21:39 |
PilzAdam |
this is the 3rd or 4th time someone breaks it like this |
| 21:40 |
hmmmm |
I don't get it |
| 21:40 |
hmmmm |
why don't you just include that in util/numeric.h |
| 21:40 |
hmmmm |
by far, that's the more appropriate place |
| 21:41 |
hmmmm |
anywhere you use mathconstants.h, you used numeric.h as well, no doubt |
| 21:41 |
hmmmm |
like only a handful of us use windows so we can't keep checking to see if it works or not |
| 21:47 |
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| 21:59 |
Sokomine |
why does the server have problems with many players? 10 players is not really much, even though many servers have less |
| 22:00 |
Sokomine |
what happens there that eats up so much cpu time? abms? chunks sent out to players? |
| 22:00 |
Sokomine |
i've saved a lot of redcrabs map and was amazed at the slow speed the map chunks arrived at my client |
| 22:01 |
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johnDC joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:02 |
Sokomine |
please understand that i don't want to complain. just wonder what is going on and hoping that a solution can be found |
| 22:02 |
Sokomine |
to me, all that graphics calculation of actually showing the world sounds way more complicated than players running around withhin the world on the server |
| 22:02 |
ShadowNinja |
Sokomine: See logs within the few hours. |
| 22:03 |
ShadowNinja |
Basically there are lots of reasons, and just bad design. |
| 22:18 |
Sokomine |
thank you. i'll read it |
| 22:21 |
johnDC |
hello everybody, I'm newbie here, I'm trying to compile minetest, but I've found web-documentation as not complete. would you please point me, where to find info about levelDB, cURL, GetText and freetype? |
| 22:23 |
ShadowNinja |
johnDC: #minetest would be a better channel for that question. |
| 22:23 |
johnDC |
thnx |
| 22:45 |
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