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| 13:04 |
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| 13:09 |
sapier |
is there something like a preprocessor in LUA? I know there might be a JIT but I'm not sure minetest uses it? |
| 13:10 |
VanessaE |
dunno; minetest doesn't use a JIT as far as I know though |
| 13:10 |
VanessaE |
btw, nice work on the 3d mobs (haven't tried them myself yet) |
| 13:10 |
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Calinou joined #minetest-delta |
| 13:11 |
sapier |
thanks :-) |
| 13:12 |
sapier |
I'm about to track down the lag issues some people reported related to animals mod ... not quite sure if they're still there as noone seems to can remember which version they tested :-( |
| 13:13 |
sapier |
during my investigations I discovered some really bad things about lua :-( |
| 13:13 |
VanessaE |
like? |
| 13:15 |
sapier |
I've a lot of debug trace functions in animals to track down problems ... of course these shouldn't be enabled in release mode. I've used following mechanism to do that: |
| 13:15 |
sapier |
debugtrace = print(text) --debug |
| 13:15 |
sapier |
debugtrace = function() end --release |
| 13:16 |
sapier |
BUT ... function () end doesn't seem a lightweight operation at all (not as heavy than print either) |
| 13:16 |
VanessaE |
hm |
| 13:16 |
sapier |
and even worse if you do something like |
| 13:16 |
sapier |
debugtrace("traceinfo: " .. call_some_func() .. " END") |
| 13:16 |
sapier |
lua does evaluate all parameters for the empty function too |
| 13:17 |
sapier |
ok I know last think has to be done ... I didn't think about this when switching from |
| 13:17 |
sapier |
#define DEBUGFCT(x) |
| 13:17 |
sapier |
style :-/ |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
hi sapier |
| 13:19 |
VanessaE |
I've not used functions like those yet; I still code in an old style: run everything through a function that checks a debug flag and executes print() :-) |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
long time no see! |
| 13:19 |
sapier |
hello :-) sorry have been busy at rl |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
lol @ #minetest-dev |
| 13:19 |
thexyz |
lolmicrooptimizations |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
<celeron55> altough i should release 0.4.2 as stable before doing that... ehm... well, let's just hope there aren't bugs |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
that's what the debian unstable dev said |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
YEAH, UPDATE TO GREP. GONNA MERGE IT ITS AWESOME |
| 13:21 |
sapier |
one function hmmm :-) nope not an option animalsmod is far to complex :-) I've even created a doxygen docu to keep trac of all its components and features |
| 13:22 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: personally I wish he'd fix some of the worst bugs first before going to 0.4.2-release. |
| 13:23 |
Calinou |
he fixed the duplication bug |
| 13:23 |
Calinou |
and unknown nodes not being diggable |
| 13:23 |
saschaheylik |
is he the only C++ coder here except for me? |
| 13:23 |
VanessaE |
he did? |
| 13:23 |
VanessaE |
since when? |
| 13:24 |
saschaheylik |
any other "worst bugs" ? |
| 13:24 |
VanessaE |
oop, there is it |
| 13:24 |
VanessaE |
it is. |
| 13:24 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: yeah, make chests/furnaces stop eating items. |
| 13:24 |
Calinou |
^ very annoying |
| 13:24 |
Calinou |
anyone fixing this gets 99 steel blocks on redcrab's servers and a chest full of mese |
| 13:25 |
Calinou |
lol |
| 13:25 |
saschaheylik |
u got paypal? |
| 13:25 |
VanessaE |
or how about the segfault when opening the F10 console (he blames irrlicht) |
| 13:26 |
saschaheylik |
ill take a look at that first |
| 13:26 |
saschaheylik |
works fine? |
| 13:26 |
saschaheylik |
what are the exact steps to segfault? |
| 13:27 |
VanessaE |
do it a few times, and only in multiplayer mode |
| 13:27 |
saschaheylik |
1. launch singleplayer |
| 13:27 |
saschaheylik |
2. press f10 |
| 13:27 |
saschaheylik |
oh |
| 13:27 |
VanessaE |
1. launch multiplayer |
| 13:27 |
VanessaE |
2. join any server |
| 13:27 |
VanessaE |
3. hit F10 a few times :-) |
| 13:27 |
Calinou |
it only has a chance to happen the first time you press it |
| 13:27 |
VanessaE |
75% of the time, it'll crash the game outright |
| 13:27 |
Calinou |
that segfault is much rarer on windows but can occur |
| 13:27 |
Calinou |
(like 10%) |
| 13:28 |
darkrose |
it also only happens if you don't have a debug build of irrlicht running in gdb |
| 13:28 |
VanessaE |
ha! |
| 13:28 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: those two are the ones that bug me the most; there are many others in the issues list |
| 13:29 |
Calinou |
yeah... good luck fixing all of them :P |
| 13:29 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 13:29 |
Calinou |
remember: bug fixing is the most boring task ever |
| 13:29 |
VanessaE |
don't I know it. |
| 13:29 |
Calinou |
I'd like to have my new textures included into minetest_game though |
| 13:29 |
saschaheylik |
thats a lot of issues |
| 13:29 |
Calinou |
finally steel ingots that actually shine :3 |
| 13:29 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: file them against minetest_game, after you ignore the message over there that specifically says NOT to because they'll be deleted :-) |
| 13:30 |
Calinou |
I did file the issue to minetest_game, c55 told me to do so |
| 13:30 |
VanessaE |
yep I saw |
| 13:30 |
saschaheylik |
got a 4.2 server? |
| 13:31 |
saschaheylik |
*0.4.2 |
| 13:31 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/issues/1 |
| 13:31 |
Calinou |
minetest.freedns.in port 30000 |
| 13:31 |
Calinou |
INFINITE BLOCKS |
| 13:31 |
Calinou |
VanessaE, ik |
| 13:34 |
saschaheylik |
keeps connecting to server |
| 13:35 |
saschaheylik |
well i can just start one locally i guess |
| 13:39 |
saschaheylik |
no segfault |
| 13:39 |
VanessaE |
guess it only happens with a remote server then |
| 13:39 |
saschaheylik |
hm |
| 13:39 |
VanessaE |
try redcrab.suret.net:30401 with 0.4.1 |
| 13:40 |
saschaheylik |
i could seperately run the standalone server |
| 13:40 |
saschaheylik |
trying an old version would miss the point |
| 13:40 |
VanessaE |
I suppose; I don't use 0.4.2 at all because nothing works with it yet |
| 13:40 |
VanessaE |
s/nothing/no servers I use/ |
| 13:41 |
saschaheylik |
17:41:27: ERROR[ServerThread]: Server: peer_id=2: failed to emerge player |
| 13:41 |
saschaheylik |
17:41:39: ACTION[ServerThread]: sascha times out. List of players: |
| 13:41 |
saschaheylik |
well thats great |
| 13:42 |
VanessaE |
lots of people have ran into that bug |
| 13:42 |
saschaheylik |
by.. starting the game? |
| 13:42 |
VanessaE |
I have not seen a solution |
| 13:43 |
sapier |
does anyone know when 4.2 shall be released? |
| 13:44 |
VanessaE |
dunno |
| 13:45 |
Calinou |
2013-04-01 |
| 13:45 |
Calinou |
2012-12-21 is a good estimate too |
| 13:45 |
VanessaE |
ha! |
| 13:46 |
VanessaE |
if my mom were still alive, she'd answer "Juvember 41st". |
| 13:46 |
VanessaE |
:-) |
| 13:46 |
saschaheylik |
our main bigtracker is github issues on https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/ right? |
| 13:46 |
saschaheylik |
*bugtracker |
| 13:46 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: yep |
| 13:46 |
saschaheylik |
k |
| 13:48 |
sapier |
I was frightened it'll be released soon ;-) |
| 13:49 |
* Calinou |
seen this mod: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1298016-131125-better-blocks-items-fancy-fences-and-more-vanilla-with-sprinkles-last-updated-89/ |
| 13:49 |
VanessaE |
I hope not. there are still too many issues that really should be worked on |
| 13:49 |
Calinou |
"fancy fences" |
| 13:49 |
Calinou |
gotta sue the devs for software patent: wall slabs and panels from stairsplus |
| 13:49 |
Calinou |
lol |
| 13:50 |
VanessaE |
nodeboxes! :-) |
| 13:50 |
Calinou |
no smooth lighting support :( |
| 13:50 |
VanessaE |
needed. badly. |
| 13:50 |
VanessaE |
nodeboxes can look ugly if the texture on them isn't noisy enough |
| 13:52 |
sapier |
I'd prefere the entity client<->server sync bugs fixed if someone think's he/she's capable of doing that :) |
| 13:53 |
Calinou |
she |
| 13:53 |
Calinou |
SHE |
| 13:53 |
Calinou |
c55 isn't a girl, sorry, try again |
| 13:53 |
saschaheylik |
oh 127.0.0.1 works, localhost doesn't |
| 13:53 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: I think sapier means any coder, not just c55 :-) |
| 13:53 |
sapier |
I know but it's not only c55 that can fix bugs ;-) |
| 13:53 |
saschaheylik |
im not a girl either |
| 13:53 |
VanessaE |
such as darkrose, who IS a she. :-) |
| 13:54 |
saschaheylik |
but CANT fix bugs |
| 13:54 |
saschaheylik |
afaik |
| 13:54 |
Calinou |
localhost can be borked on some computers |
| 13:54 |
Calinou |
lol, saschaheylik, I read like this: " who IS a she. :-) but CANT fix bugs" |
| 13:55 |
saschaheylik |
so? |
| 13:55 |
saschaheylik |
how else would you read it |
| 13:55 |
Calinou |
saschaheylik gold medal "getting jokes" |
| 14:01 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: actually darkrose can fix bug but she can't push to git master |
| 14:02 |
saschaheylik |
but she could upload the code anywhere else and post a link here? |
| 14:03 |
saschaheylik |
i just jumped off a 300 block tower. |
| 14:03 |
saschaheylik |
proves minetest is superior to minecraft |
| 14:03 |
sapier |
so you like rats with long tails or short? ;-) |
| 14:04 |
saschaheylik |
those are relative terms |
| 14:04 |
VanessaE |
just use the default rats texture so I don't have to redo them :-) |
| 14:05 |
VanessaE |
(I haven't added support to my tex pack for the Animals mod because I don't think I can find good enough imagery) |
| 14:05 |
sapier |
I'm creating a 3d model so the textures ain't really usefull anymore |
| 14:05 |
sapier |
textures for 3d models look really really strange :-) |
| 14:07 |
VanessaE |
I know :-) |
| 14:07 |
VanessaE |
I've done plenty of them for nodebox-based stuff |
| 14:07 |
sapier |
btw long -> more than body length short -> less than half body length ;) |
| 14:08 |
VanessaE |
I guess it depends. can the tail move? :-) |
| 14:08 |
sapier |
no it's just a "stick" |
| 14:08 |
VanessaE |
I meant to ask before, do these abuses-of-wielded-objects animate at all? :-) |
| 14:09 |
sapier |
animation of wielded items? that is possible? |
| 14:09 |
VanessaE |
dunno |
| 14:09 |
VanessaE |
I suppose not |
| 14:09 |
VanessaE |
hell I'm still not entirely clear on how you did it :-) |
| 14:09 |
saschaheylik |
you could make 3d objects in advance for when i add the ability to use them "properly" |
| 14:10 |
sapier |
how I did what? |
| 14:10 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: that's one thing c55 is dead-set against, proper 3D mobs, unless such an engine is incredibly clean, fast, and flexible. |
| 14:10 |
sapier |
for propper usage there's only missing a rename and collision boxes that rotate according to its yaw :-) |
| 14:11 |
VanessaE |
sapier: how you were able to turn these things into actual in-world objects |
| 14:11 |
saschaheylik |
VanessaE: because they are so hard on hardware in 2012? |
| 14:11 |
sapier |
that's been pilzadams idea he just created entities with drawtype wiedlitem |
| 14:11 |
saschaheylik |
VanessaE: rather because of the trouble of adding them properly |
| 14:12 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: no, because he doesn't want hard-coded stuff and because he doesn't want it to look like boxy minecraft mobs |
| 14:12 |
sapier |
we already have a "boxy" minecraft world ;-) |
| 14:12 |
saschaheylik |
no way 2d mobs are better than "boxy" mobs |
| 14:13 |
saschaheylik |
anyways, useless discussion |
| 14:13 |
saschaheylik |
issue filed |
| 14:13 |
sapier |
I'm thinking about making it a setting if you wanna use 2d or 3d mobs what do you think about? |
| 14:13 |
saschaheylik |
if we had 3d support who would make 2d animals |
| 14:13 |
sapier |
those with slow hardware ;-) |
| 14:14 |
saschaheylik |
oh come on |
| 14:14 |
sapier |
:-) the only difference between 2d and 3d animals is it's model ... not much to do to make a 2d mob |
| 14:15 |
saschaheylik |
depends on your conception of 2d mob |
| 14:15 |
saschaheylik |
ultra low resolution pixelmobs, yes |
| 14:15 |
sapier |
ok this is only true as long as you don't consider animation |
| 14:16 |
saschaheylik |
maybe those with slow hardware can turn off animations |
| 14:16 |
sapier |
true |
| 14:16 |
saschaheylik |
that was a joke |
| 14:17 |
saschaheylik |
and technically, no games exist without animations |
| 14:17 |
saschaheylik |
meaning: moving parts |
| 14:17 |
sapier |
I know :-) but It's an obvious point that ppl switching to 2d because of performance won't enable animation to loose it again |
| 14:18 |
saschaheylik |
how much performance does it take to render a gif animation? |
| 14:18 |
sapier |
ok I've meant in model animation when talking about "animation" |
| 14:18 |
saschaheylik |
how much performance does that take? |
| 14:19 |
saschaheylik |
in a minecraft world, pretty much anything is low to mid polycount |
| 14:19 |
sapier |
depends on how many animations are on your screen at different 3d positions clipping etc that's not that simple as a 2d animation in plain 2d browser |
| 14:19 |
saschaheylik |
i really dont see performance issues from 3d mobs happening |
| 14:19 |
saschaheylik |
not in 2012 |
| 14:20 |
sapier |
I've had complains about animals mod introducing lag for some time ... some easy tasks can be implemented really bad :-) |
| 14:20 |
saschaheylik |
maybe after when the earth is all fucked up and people have to re-invent computers |
| 14:20 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: the sad part about the "in 2012" is that c55 wants to target low-end systems (to me, that means 10 or so years old) yet there's no way the game will run acceptibly on old hardware anymore |
| 14:21 |
saschaheylik |
he wants to target primarily bad computers? |
| 14:21 |
saschaheylik |
he should be targeting people |
| 14:21 |
saschaheylik |
who dont liek shit computers |
| 14:21 |
saschaheylik |
so they wont have problems with 3d mobs |
| 14:21 |
VanessaE |
not "bad", just "old". |
| 14:21 |
saschaheylik |
slow is bad |
| 14:21 |
VanessaE |
low end as in 1-2 cores, integrated gfx, etc |
| 14:21 |
saschaheylik |
old is slow |
| 14:22 |
VanessaE |
which is why I have a high-end system and even IT suffers under minetest at times |
| 14:22 |
sapier |
if you target integrated graphics intel it's as targeting 20year old machines ;-) |
| 14:22 |
saschaheylik |
VanessaE: if you are worrying about simple animated 3d models it sounds more like youre living in a time of cpu-rendered graphics |
| 14:23 |
VanessaE |
Phenom II X6 1055T, 4GB RAM, Radeon HD6870 gfx with 1GB, 60GB SSD. And it can't always sustain even 60 fps either because the drivers suck or because minetest is slow :-) |
| 14:23 |
saschaheylik |
the polygon count sure as hell is not the bottleneck |
| 14:23 |
VanessaE |
(nevermind what happens when I hit it with my 512px textures. it crawls then) |
| 14:23 |
sapier |
minetests fps aren't primary limited by graphics :) |
| 14:23 |
saschaheylik |
its rather memory or maybe cpu |
| 14:24 |
saschaheylik |
VanessaE: go slow on the HD textures :P |
| 14:24 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: no. :-) |
| 14:24 |
VanessaE |
I bought a high-end card because I was tired of low-end gfx capability :-) |
| 14:24 |
saschaheylik |
the main memory eater is the voxel data |
| 14:25 |
VanessaE |
oh that reminds me, |
| 14:25 |
saschaheylik |
and cpu probably too |
| 14:25 |
sapier |
4GB RAM ... that's not enough ;-) ... ok I haven't got more but as soon as I start eclipse firefox and minetest I'm hitting the memory barrier :-) |
| 14:25 |
VanessaE |
here's one you can attempt if you want: |
| 14:25 |
saschaheylik |
depends on how many voxels you are trying to cache |
| 14:25 |
sapier |
plasma is eating lots of memory too :-/ |
| 14:25 |
saschaheylik |
im using default settings so |
| 14:25 |
saschaheylik |
plasma? |
| 14:25 |
sapier |
kde's desktop |
| 14:26 |
saschaheylik |
oh right |
| 14:26 |
saschaheylik |
out of context |
| 14:26 |
VanessaE |
rip out, shread, destroy, and then really REALLY do away with that G*d damn extrude routine at startup that makes the game take forever to start, and either render everything flat or extrude on demand only those things the player actually has handy |
| 14:26 |
sapier |
yeah i couldn't get that shit of unity working on 3 displays :-/ |
| 14:26 |
saschaheylik |
VanessaE: extrude what? |
| 14:26 |
saschaheylik |
the tools? |
| 14:27 |
saschaheylik |
of the player |
| 14:27 |
VanessaE |
tools, items, etc. |
| 14:27 |
VanessaE |
the more textures you have defined (by way of more mods), regardless of whether they should need to be extruded, the longer the game takes to startup |
| 14:27 |
saschaheylik |
guess they'll be replaced with 3d models too |
| 14:28 |
VanessaE |
in my case I have a few thousand nodes defined among all my mods, and the game takes well over one full minute to start |
| 14:28 |
VanessaE |
they *are* 3d models |
| 14:28 |
sapier |
does minetest use LOD for textures? |
| 14:28 |
saschaheylik |
then what is being extruded |
| 14:28 |
VanessaE |
he extrudes them into 3d space by doing pixel -> 3d cube over and over for each pixel in each texture file |
| 14:28 |
saschaheylik |
2d pictures could be extruded into 3d models |
| 14:28 |
VanessaE |
or something like that anyway |
| 14:28 |
saschaheylik |
a texture is not a 3d model |
| 14:28 |
VanessaE |
I know. |
| 14:29 |
VanessaE |
he converts it into one. |
| 14:29 |
saschaheylik |
yes. would be a hell of a lot faster to simply load a simple 3d model instead |
| 14:29 |
VanessaE |
why he doesn't just cache the extrusions to disk I have no idea,. |
| 14:29 |
saschaheylik |
simplicity of drawing the tools |
| 14:29 |
VanessaE |
(maybe it would take longer to load, who knows) |
| 14:30 |
saschaheylik |
no, it's definitely because this way you can draw the tools quickly in paint or whatever |
| 14:30 |
sapier |
are the tools realy a that huge impact on performace? |
| 14:30 |
saschaheylik |
no but the 2d- 3d conversion |
| 14:30 |
VanessaE |
saschaheylik: nnononono |
| 14:30 |
VanessaE |
I mean he caches the images, why doesn't he cache the extruded image->model conversions also |
| 14:30 |
saschaheylik |
or an insane obsession about disk space |
| 14:31 |
VanessaE |
so that they don't have to be re-extruded every damn time the game starts |
| 14:31 |
VanessaE |
disk space. BAH |
| 14:31 |
VanessaE |
disk space is cheap |
| 14:31 |
saschaheylik |
hm yeah right the sewrver could just do it on startup and then serve the extruded one |
| 14:31 |
VanessaE |
exactly. |
| 14:31 |
saschaheylik |
guess he didnt add that |
| 14:31 |
saschaheylik |
i think i'll do that real quick |
| 14:32 |
VanessaE |
c55 sais he was thinking of just rendering everything flat (no extrusion). I suggested only applying the extrusion to craftitems, tools, etc. I think he applies it to *everything* |
| 14:32 |
VanessaE |
(even cubes) |
| 14:32 |
VanessaE |
says* |
| 14:32 |
saschaheylik |
id suggest not messing with pictures as extrudable 3d model fiormat replacement anyways |
| 14:33 |
VanessaE |
well being able to create those objects first as a simple image file has its advantages |
| 14:33 |
saschaheylik |
that is what i named as the main reason |
| 14:33 |
VanessaE |
just agreeing with you |
| 14:34 |
saschaheylik |
good |
| 14:34 |
VanessaE |
at any rate, people notice this stuff. |
| 14:34 |
VanessaE |
if a game takes forever, garbles the window while it's apparently "hung", and then suddenly appears as if nothing was wrong, that does NOT reflect well on the author or the community |
| 14:35 |
VanessaE |
(try that sometime: load my 512px tex pack, then start the game, maximize the window while it's still rendering. move something else around on top of it. watch it turn to garbage) |
| 14:36 |
|
SpeedProg joined #minetest-delta |
| 14:40 |
VanessaE |
(the above may only be true on linux) |
| 15:15 |
Calinou |
saschaheylik> no but the 2d- 3d conversion |
| 15:15 |
Calinou |
[citation needed] |
| 15:15 |
Calinou |
today's GPUs can draw a lot of polys |
| 15:15 |
Calinou |
<saschaheylik> id suggest not messing with pictures as extrudable 3d model fiormat replacement anyways |
| 15:15 |
saschaheylik |
my 3d animals wouldnt have to be converted |
| 15:16 |
Calinou |
separate 3D models will make texture pack creation a PITA for no benefit |
| 15:16 |
saschaheylik |
thats not true |
| 15:16 |
Calinou |
it will |
| 15:16 |
Calinou |
I don't have the motivation to remodel EVERY SINGLE FUCKING BLOCK OR ITEM USING BLENDER |
| 15:16 |
Calinou |
for my packs |
| 15:17 |
saschaheylik |
you dont have to |
| 15:17 |
saschaheylik |
you can simply change the textures like youre supposed to |
| 15:17 |
saschaheylik |
not the models |
| 15:17 |
saschaheylik |
its a TEXTURE pack |
| 15:17 |
Calinou |
you were talking about making models for 3D extruded tools and stuff. |
| 15:18 |
Calinou |
for player models and mobs it is OK |
| 15:18 |
saschaheylik |
instead of, not for |
| 15:18 |
Calinou |
it is NOT ok for items |
| 15:18 |
Calinou |
because you will have to remodel so that it suits your pack |
| 15:18 |
Calinou |
and it has close to no performance benefit |
| 15:18 |
Calinou |
get a REAL FUCKING GPU THAT IS NOT 10 YEARS OLD, and your problems will be gone |
| 15:18 |
Calinou |
or write a C++ mod that doesn't draw the 1500tris (OMG SO MUCH) of the wielded tool |
| 15:18 |
saschaheylik |
you cant use the old tool textures on new tool models |
| 15:19 |
Calinou |
^ looks ugly |
| 15:19 |
saschaheylik |
that much is true |
| 15:19 |
Calinou |
plus, don't forget, UV mapping |
| 15:19 |
saschaheylik |
yeah whatever i shouldnt get unnecessarily distracted |
| 15:38 |
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LunaVorax |
hi |
| 15:49 |
Calinou |
hi |
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