Time Nick Message 13:09 sapier is there something like a preprocessor in LUA? I know there might be a JIT but I'm not sure minetest uses it? 13:10 VanessaE dunno; minetest doesn't use a JIT as far as I know though 13:10 VanessaE btw, nice work on the 3d mobs (haven't tried them myself yet) 13:11 sapier thanks :-) 13:12 sapier I'm about to track down the lag issues some people reported related to animals mod ... not quite sure if they're still there as noone seems to can remember which version they tested :-( 13:13 sapier during my investigations I discovered some really bad things about lua :-( 13:13 VanessaE like? 13:15 sapier I've a lot of debug trace functions in animals to track down problems ... of course these shouldn't be enabled in release mode. I've used following mechanism to do that: 13:15 sapier debugtrace = print(text) --debug 13:15 sapier debugtrace = function() end --release 13:16 sapier BUT ... function () end doesn't seem a lightweight operation at all (not as heavy than print either) 13:16 VanessaE hm 13:16 sapier and even worse if you do something like 13:16 sapier debugtrace("traceinfo: " .. call_some_func() .. " END") 13:16 sapier lua does evaluate all parameters for the empty function too 13:17 sapier ok I know last think has to be done ... I didn't think about this when switching from 13:17 sapier #define DEBUGFCT(x) 13:17 sapier style :-/ 13:19 Calinou hi sapier 13:19 VanessaE I've not used functions like those yet; I still code in an old style: run everything through a function that checks a debug flag and executes print() :-) 13:19 Calinou long time no see! 13:19 sapier hello :-) sorry have been busy at rl 13:19 Calinou lol @ #minetest-dev 13:19 thexyz lolmicrooptimizations 13:19 Calinou altough i should release 0.4.2 as stable before doing that... ehm... well, let's just hope there aren't bugs 13:19 Calinou that's what the debian unstable dev said 13:19 Calinou YEAH, UPDATE TO GREP. GONNA MERGE IT ITS AWESOME 13:21 sapier one function hmmm :-) nope not an option animalsmod is far to complex :-) I've even created a doxygen docu to keep trac of all its components and features 13:22 VanessaE Calinou: personally I wish he'd fix some of the worst bugs first before going to 0.4.2-release. 13:23 Calinou he fixed the duplication bug 13:23 Calinou and unknown nodes not being diggable 13:23 saschaheylik is he the only C++ coder here except for me? 13:23 VanessaE he did? 13:23 VanessaE since when? 13:24 saschaheylik any other "worst bugs" ? 13:24 VanessaE oop, there is it 13:24 VanessaE it is. 13:24 VanessaE saschaheylik: yeah, make chests/furnaces stop eating items. 13:24 Calinou ^ very annoying 13:24 Calinou anyone fixing this gets 99 steel blocks on redcrab's servers and a chest full of mese 13:25 Calinou lol 13:25 saschaheylik u got paypal? 13:25 VanessaE or how about the segfault when opening the F10 console (he blames irrlicht) 13:26 saschaheylik ill take a look at that first 13:26 saschaheylik works fine? 13:26 saschaheylik what are the exact steps to segfault? 13:27 VanessaE do it a few times, and only in multiplayer mode 13:27 saschaheylik 1. launch singleplayer 13:27 saschaheylik 2. press f10 13:27 saschaheylik oh 13:27 VanessaE 1. launch multiplayer 13:27 VanessaE 2. join any server 13:27 VanessaE 3. hit F10 a few times :-) 13:27 Calinou it only has a chance to happen the first time you press it 13:27 VanessaE 75% of the time, it'll crash the game outright 13:27 Calinou that segfault is much rarer on windows but can occur 13:27 Calinou (like 10%) 13:28 darkrose it also only happens if you don't have a debug build of irrlicht running in gdb 13:28 VanessaE ha! 13:28 VanessaE saschaheylik: those two are the ones that bug me the most; there are many others in the issues list 13:29 Calinou yeah... good luck fixing all of them :P 13:29 VanessaE heh 13:29 Calinou remember: bug fixing is the most boring task ever 13:29 VanessaE don't I know it. 13:29 Calinou I'd like to have my new textures included into minetest_game though 13:29 saschaheylik thats a lot of issues 13:29 Calinou finally steel ingots that actually shine :3 13:29 VanessaE Calinou: file them against minetest_game, after you ignore the message over there that specifically says NOT to because they'll be deleted :-) 13:30 Calinou I did file the issue to minetest_game, c55 told me to do so 13:30 VanessaE yep I saw 13:30 saschaheylik got a 4.2 server? 13:31 saschaheylik *0.4.2 13:31 VanessaE Calinou: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/issues/1 13:31 Calinou minetest.freedns.in port 30000 13:31 Calinou INFINITE BLOCKS 13:31 Calinou VanessaE, ik 13:34 saschaheylik keeps connecting to server 13:35 saschaheylik well i can just start one locally i guess 13:39 saschaheylik no segfault 13:39 VanessaE guess it only happens with a remote server then 13:39 saschaheylik hm 13:39 VanessaE try redcrab.suret.net:30401 with 0.4.1 13:40 saschaheylik i could seperately run the standalone server 13:40 saschaheylik trying an old version would miss the point 13:40 VanessaE I suppose; I don't use 0.4.2 at all because nothing works with it yet 13:40 VanessaE s/nothing/no servers I use/ 13:41 saschaheylik 17:41:27: ERROR[ServerThread]: Server: peer_id=2: failed to emerge player 13:41 saschaheylik 17:41:39: ACTION[ServerThread]: sascha times out. List of players: 13:41 saschaheylik well thats great 13:42 VanessaE lots of people have ran into that bug 13:42 saschaheylik by.. starting the game? 13:42 VanessaE I have not seen a solution 13:43 sapier does anyone know when 4.2 shall be released? 13:44 VanessaE dunno 13:45 Calinou 2013-04-01 13:45 Calinou 2012-12-21 is a good estimate too 13:45 VanessaE ha! 13:46 VanessaE if my mom were still alive, she'd answer "Juvember 41st". 13:46 VanessaE :-) 13:46 saschaheylik our main bigtracker is github issues on https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/ right? 13:46 saschaheylik *bugtracker 13:46 VanessaE saschaheylik: yep 13:46 saschaheylik k 13:48 sapier I was frightened it'll be released soon ;-) 13:49 * Calinou seen this mod: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1298016-131125-better-blocks-items-fancy-fences-and-more-vanilla-with-sprinkles-last-updated-89/ 13:49 VanessaE I hope not. there are still too many issues that really should be worked on 13:49 Calinou "fancy fences" 13:49 Calinou gotta sue the devs for software patent: wall slabs and panels from stairsplus 13:49 Calinou lol 13:50 VanessaE nodeboxes! :-) 13:50 Calinou no smooth lighting support :( 13:50 VanessaE needed. badly. 13:50 VanessaE nodeboxes can look ugly if the texture on them isn't noisy enough 13:52 sapier I'd prefere the entity client<->server sync bugs fixed if someone think's he/she's capable of doing that :) 13:53 Calinou she 13:53 Calinou SHE 13:53 Calinou c55 isn't a girl, sorry, try again 13:53 saschaheylik oh 127.0.0.1 works, localhost doesn't 13:53 VanessaE Calinou: I think sapier means any coder, not just c55 :-) 13:53 sapier I know but it's not only c55 that can fix bugs ;-) 13:53 saschaheylik im not a girl either 13:53 VanessaE such as darkrose, who IS a she. :-) 13:54 saschaheylik but CANT fix bugs 13:54 saschaheylik afaik 13:54 Calinou localhost can be borked on some computers 13:54 Calinou lol, saschaheylik, I read like this: " who IS a she. :-) but CANT fix bugs" 13:55 saschaheylik so? 13:55 saschaheylik how else would you read it 13:55 Calinou saschaheylik gold medal "getting jokes" 14:01 VanessaE saschaheylik: actually darkrose can fix bug but she can't push to git master 14:02 saschaheylik but she could upload the code anywhere else and post a link here? 14:03 saschaheylik i just jumped off a 300 block tower. 14:03 saschaheylik proves minetest is superior to minecraft 14:03 sapier so you like rats with long tails or short? ;-) 14:04 saschaheylik those are relative terms 14:04 VanessaE just use the default rats texture so I don't have to redo them :-) 14:05 VanessaE (I haven't added support to my tex pack for the Animals mod because I don't think I can find good enough imagery) 14:05 sapier I'm creating a 3d model so the textures ain't really usefull anymore 14:05 sapier textures for 3d models look really really strange :-) 14:07 VanessaE I know :-) 14:07 VanessaE I've done plenty of them for nodebox-based stuff 14:07 sapier btw long -> more than body length short -> less than half body length ;) 14:08 VanessaE I guess it depends. can the tail move? :-) 14:08 sapier no it's just a "stick" 14:08 VanessaE I meant to ask before, do these abuses-of-wielded-objects animate at all? :-) 14:09 sapier animation of wielded items? that is possible? 14:09 VanessaE dunno 14:09 VanessaE I suppose not 14:09 VanessaE hell I'm still not entirely clear on how you did it :-) 14:09 saschaheylik you could make 3d objects in advance for when i add the ability to use them "properly" 14:10 sapier how I did what? 14:10 VanessaE saschaheylik: that's one thing c55 is dead-set against, proper 3D mobs, unless such an engine is incredibly clean, fast, and flexible. 14:10 sapier for propper usage there's only missing a rename and collision boxes that rotate according to its yaw :-) 14:11 VanessaE sapier: how you were able to turn these things into actual in-world objects 14:11 saschaheylik VanessaE: because they are so hard on hardware in 2012? 14:11 sapier that's been pilzadams idea he just created entities with drawtype wiedlitem 14:11 saschaheylik VanessaE: rather because of the trouble of adding them properly 14:12 VanessaE saschaheylik: no, because he doesn't want hard-coded stuff and because he doesn't want it to look like boxy minecraft mobs 14:12 sapier we already have a "boxy" minecraft world ;-) 14:12 saschaheylik no way 2d mobs are better than "boxy" mobs 14:13 saschaheylik anyways, useless discussion 14:13 saschaheylik issue filed 14:13 sapier I'm thinking about making it a setting if you wanna use 2d or 3d mobs what do you think about? 14:13 saschaheylik if we had 3d support who would make 2d animals 14:13 sapier those with slow hardware ;-) 14:14 saschaheylik oh come on 14:14 sapier :-) the only difference between 2d and 3d animals is it's model ... not much to do to make a 2d mob 14:15 saschaheylik depends on your conception of 2d mob 14:15 saschaheylik ultra low resolution pixelmobs, yes 14:15 sapier ok this is only true as long as you don't consider animation 14:16 saschaheylik maybe those with slow hardware can turn off animations 14:16 sapier true 14:16 saschaheylik that was a joke 14:17 saschaheylik and technically, no games exist without animations 14:17 saschaheylik meaning: moving parts 14:17 sapier I know :-) but It's an obvious point that ppl switching to 2d because of performance won't enable animation to loose it again 14:18 saschaheylik how much performance does it take to render a gif animation? 14:18 sapier ok I've meant in model animation when talking about "animation" 14:18 saschaheylik how much performance does that take? 14:19 saschaheylik in a minecraft world, pretty much anything is low to mid polycount 14:19 sapier depends on how many animations are on your screen at different 3d positions clipping etc that's not that simple as a 2d animation in plain 2d browser 14:19 saschaheylik i really dont see performance issues from 3d mobs happening 14:19 saschaheylik not in 2012 14:20 sapier I've had complains about animals mod introducing lag for some time ... some easy tasks can be implemented really bad :-) 14:20 saschaheylik maybe after when the earth is all fucked up and people have to re-invent computers 14:20 VanessaE saschaheylik: the sad part about the "in 2012" is that c55 wants to target low-end systems (to me, that means 10 or so years old) yet there's no way the game will run acceptibly on old hardware anymore 14:21 saschaheylik he wants to target primarily bad computers? 14:21 saschaheylik he should be targeting people 14:21 saschaheylik who dont liek shit computers 14:21 saschaheylik so they wont have problems with 3d mobs 14:21 VanessaE not "bad", just "old". 14:21 saschaheylik slow is bad 14:21 VanessaE low end as in 1-2 cores, integrated gfx, etc 14:21 saschaheylik old is slow 14:22 VanessaE which is why I have a high-end system and even IT suffers under minetest at times 14:22 sapier if you target integrated graphics intel it's as targeting 20year old machines ;-) 14:22 saschaheylik VanessaE: if you are worrying about simple animated 3d models it sounds more like youre living in a time of cpu-rendered graphics 14:23 VanessaE Phenom II X6 1055T, 4GB RAM, Radeon HD6870 gfx with 1GB, 60GB SSD. And it can't always sustain even 60 fps either because the drivers suck or because minetest is slow :-) 14:23 saschaheylik the polygon count sure as hell is not the bottleneck 14:23 VanessaE (nevermind what happens when I hit it with my 512px textures. it crawls then) 14:23 sapier minetests fps aren't primary limited by graphics :) 14:23 saschaheylik its rather memory or maybe cpu 14:24 saschaheylik VanessaE: go slow on the HD textures :P 14:24 VanessaE saschaheylik: no. :-) 14:24 VanessaE I bought a high-end card because I was tired of low-end gfx capability :-) 14:24 saschaheylik the main memory eater is the voxel data 14:25 VanessaE oh that reminds me, 14:25 saschaheylik and cpu probably too 14:25 sapier 4GB RAM ... that's not enough ;-) ... ok I haven't got more but as soon as I start eclipse firefox and minetest I'm hitting the memory barrier :-) 14:25 VanessaE here's one you can attempt if you want: 14:25 saschaheylik depends on how many voxels you are trying to cache 14:25 sapier plasma is eating lots of memory too :-/ 14:25 saschaheylik im using default settings so 14:25 saschaheylik plasma? 14:25 sapier kde's desktop 14:26 saschaheylik oh right 14:26 saschaheylik out of context 14:26 VanessaE rip out, shread, destroy, and then really REALLY do away with that G*d damn extrude routine at startup that makes the game take forever to start, and either render everything flat or extrude on demand only those things the player actually has handy 14:26 sapier yeah i couldn't get that shit of unity working on 3 displays :-/ 14:26 saschaheylik VanessaE: extrude what? 14:26 saschaheylik the tools? 14:27 saschaheylik of the player 14:27 VanessaE tools, items, etc. 14:27 VanessaE the more textures you have defined (by way of more mods), regardless of whether they should need to be extruded, the longer the game takes to startup 14:27 saschaheylik guess they'll be replaced with 3d models too 14:28 VanessaE in my case I have a few thousand nodes defined among all my mods, and the game takes well over one full minute to start 14:28 VanessaE they *are* 3d models 14:28 sapier does minetest use LOD for textures? 14:28 saschaheylik then what is being extruded 14:28 VanessaE he extrudes them into 3d space by doing pixel -> 3d cube over and over for each pixel in each texture file 14:28 saschaheylik 2d pictures could be extruded into 3d models 14:28 VanessaE or something like that anyway 14:28 saschaheylik a texture is not a 3d model 14:28 VanessaE I know. 14:29 VanessaE he converts it into one. 14:29 saschaheylik yes. would be a hell of a lot faster to simply load a simple 3d model instead 14:29 VanessaE why he doesn't just cache the extrusions to disk I have no idea,. 14:29 saschaheylik simplicity of drawing the tools 14:29 VanessaE (maybe it would take longer to load, who knows) 14:30 saschaheylik no, it's definitely because this way you can draw the tools quickly in paint or whatever 14:30 sapier are the tools realy a that huge impact on performace? 14:30 saschaheylik no but the 2d- 3d conversion 14:30 VanessaE saschaheylik: nnononono 14:30 VanessaE I mean he caches the images, why doesn't he cache the extruded image->model conversions also 14:30 saschaheylik or an insane obsession about disk space 14:31 VanessaE so that they don't have to be re-extruded every damn time the game starts 14:31 VanessaE disk space. BAH 14:31 VanessaE disk space is cheap 14:31 saschaheylik hm yeah right the sewrver could just do it on startup and then serve the extruded one 14:31 VanessaE exactly. 14:31 saschaheylik guess he didnt add that 14:31 saschaheylik i think i'll do that real quick 14:32 VanessaE c55 sais he was thinking of just rendering everything flat (no extrusion). I suggested only applying the extrusion to craftitems, tools, etc. I think he applies it to *everything* 14:32 VanessaE (even cubes) 14:32 VanessaE says* 14:32 saschaheylik id suggest not messing with pictures as extrudable 3d model fiormat replacement anyways 14:33 VanessaE well being able to create those objects first as a simple image file has its advantages 14:33 saschaheylik that is what i named as the main reason 14:33 VanessaE just agreeing with you 14:34 saschaheylik good 14:34 VanessaE at any rate, people notice this stuff. 14:34 VanessaE if a game takes forever, garbles the window while it's apparently "hung", and then suddenly appears as if nothing was wrong, that does NOT reflect well on the author or the community 14:35 VanessaE (try that sometime: load my 512px tex pack, then start the game, maximize the window while it's still rendering. move something else around on top of it. watch it turn to garbage) 14:40 VanessaE (the above may only be true on linux) 15:15 Calinou saschaheylik> no but the 2d- 3d conversion 15:15 Calinou [citation needed] 15:15 Calinou today's GPUs can draw a lot of polys 15:15 Calinou id suggest not messing with pictures as extrudable 3d model fiormat replacement anyways 15:15 saschaheylik my 3d animals wouldnt have to be converted 15:16 Calinou separate 3D models will make texture pack creation a PITA for no benefit 15:16 saschaheylik thats not true 15:16 Calinou it will 15:16 Calinou I don't have the motivation to remodel EVERY SINGLE FUCKING BLOCK OR ITEM USING BLENDER 15:16 Calinou for my packs 15:17 saschaheylik you dont have to 15:17 saschaheylik you can simply change the textures like youre supposed to 15:17 saschaheylik not the models 15:17 saschaheylik its a TEXTURE pack 15:17 Calinou you were talking about making models for 3D extruded tools and stuff. 15:18 Calinou for player models and mobs it is OK 15:18 saschaheylik instead of, not for 15:18 Calinou it is NOT ok for items 15:18 Calinou because you will have to remodel so that it suits your pack 15:18 Calinou and it has close to no performance benefit 15:18 Calinou get a REAL FUCKING GPU THAT IS NOT 10 YEARS OLD, and your problems will be gone 15:18 Calinou or write a C++ mod that doesn't draw the 1500tris (OMG SO MUCH) of the wielded tool 15:18 saschaheylik you cant use the old tool textures on new tool models 15:19 Calinou ^ looks ugly 15:19 saschaheylik that much is true 15:19 Calinou plus, don't forget, UV mapping 15:19 saschaheylik yeah whatever i shouldnt get unnecessarily distracted 15:46 LunaVorax hi 15:49 Calinou hi