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noob |
whats this for? |
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| 18:01 |
Taoki |
Hi |
| 18:02 |
Taoki |
Although I asked on #minetest, I thought to ask here too: Does anyone have any news as to when support for 3D players / mobs will be up? Especially using 3D skeletal meshes, but even the new nodeboxes system for blocky ones |
| 18:02 |
Taoki |
I'm really interested in this, and I'm seeing a lot of other people are... but so far no news |
| 18:04 |
darkrose |
celeron keeps saying it won't happen |
| 18:04 |
Anchakor |
I guess nobody C++ competent is |
| 18:04 |
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| 18:04 |
Taoki |
:( |
| 18:04 |
Taoki |
Everyone wants it to happen I think |
| 18:04 |
Anchakor |
not me |
| 18:05 |
darkrose |
Anchakor: it's not that, celeron just doesn't want it |
| 18:05 |
Taoki |
I must admit celeron is hard to understand sometimes. Even if he's doing everything well and all |
| 18:05 |
Anchakor |
don't make me grep my logs for him saying he wouldn't mind if someone implemented that |
| 18:05 |
Taoki |
Maybe someone will make a branch or fork with support for this in the meantime then |
| 18:06 |
Taoki |
ah |
| 18:06 |
Taoki |
If he said that then it is ok |
| 18:06 |
Anchakor |
he might not include it in his version of the game, but that is fine |
| 18:06 |
Taoki |
I do remember he saying that he wants sprites and not 3D models... but that was long ago (about 2 years, when MineTest was in its first months of existence) |
| 18:06 |
Taoki |
yeah |
| 18:06 |
Anchakor |
he just doesn't want to work on it and work on maintaining it |
| 18:07 |
Taoki |
I'm also not saying it must happen for MineTest game. Just adding the ability to the engine for custom games |
| 18:07 |
* Taoki |
nods |
| 18:07 |
darkrose |
the problem with it is that with models coming from different people it'd be near impossible to maintain a consistant art style |
| 18:07 |
Taoki |
I really wish I could do it, but I'm barely learning C++ and understanding the code :( |
| 18:08 |
darkrose |
especially if you then end up with a mix of 3d and 2d, it'll just make the game look messy |
| 18:08 |
Taoki |
darkrose: Well the same could be said about textures and sounds. Support in the engine is needed for them... otherwise people choose what they do |
| 18:08 |
Taoki |
I do agree with that |
| 18:09 |
Taoki |
But that's the game creator's job to take care of |
| 18:09 |
Taoki |
minetest_game might not have 3D at all or for a long time. But I'm quite eager to use it in custom games, once MT is more complete so I can try to put some of my plans in existence |
| 18:09 |
darkrose |
it's a lot easier to make consistant texture packs than models |
| 18:11 |
Taoki |
Yeah. But still, without some 3D model support things won't get too far. I tried the sprite-based players and mobs (such as the animals mod) but no matter how good the sprite is, it looks horrible and very fake for me. I could never play a MC clone like that permanently (in most ways at least) |
| 18:12 |
Taoki |
Well Infiniminer was like that too... but I never played that either. Doubt I would have liked it that much |
| 18:14 |
darkrose |
I experimented with some 3d mobs the other day, so it's doable, but not that big of a thing next to other stuff that needs doing |
| 18:16 |
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| 18:21 |
Taoki |
darkrose: Oh? I'm curous how you managed to do them. Nodeboxes? |
| 18:22 |
darkrose |
http://stuff.ltmnet.com/images/mt/3d-mobs.png |
| 18:22 |
darkrose |
yeah, kinda basic, but they work |
| 18:22 |
Taoki |
I like. Not the best model but still |
| 18:23 |
Taoki |
Can I ask more details? Like, first off are they animated? And have you posted the script anywhere so others can try it? |
| 18:24 |
darkrose |
https://github.com/darkrose/minetest_mods/tree/master/mobs |
| 18:24 |
darkrose |
they're not really animated, but they move around a bit, run away if you hit them, etc |
| 18:24 |
Taoki |
Nice. Thanks |
| 18:25 |
Taoki |
Yeah, i mean if the 3D model gets animated. Mobs can already move around, like the Oteki or Rat, but is still rendered with sprites |
| 18:26 |
NakedFury |
we need that in the game |
| 18:26 |
Anchakor |
still all that would look like shit with no shadows and lightning model |
| 18:27 |
Taoki |
Still better than nothing |
| 18:28 |
NakedFury |
exactly |
| 18:29 |
NakedFury |
we can play around with mobs but not with shadows or lightning model |
| 18:29 |
ironzorg |
oerrki |
| 18:30 |
NakedFury |
3d models that can be animated |
| 18:30 |
NakedFury |
and blocks that can be animated too |
| 18:31 |
Taoki |
I think 3D mobs are more important. Not even MC has 3D shadows, but for MT I do support such a feature |
| 18:31 |
Taoki |
Until then however, I think having 3D mosbs is the next step forward |
| 18:34 |
VanessaE |
one thing c55 did say as I recall is he doesn't want 3d mobs to look minecraftish i.e. boxy |
| 18:34 |
Taoki |
That would be hard not to do. Since you'd need high-poly models in a blocky environment with 8-bit textures |
| 18:35 |
Taoki |
Might not fit very well |
| 18:35 |
Taoki |
Still, if they look good, sure |
| 18:35 |
VanessaE |
not everyone uses the grainy pixely textures ;-) |
| 18:35 |
NakedFury |
no but they still need to fit |
| 18:35 |
NakedFury |
it would look weird to have Gears of Wars models in minetest enviroment |
| 18:35 |
NakedFury |
extremely |
| 18:36 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 18:36 |
VanessaE |
so make 'em so they can be adapted with some kind of custom skin or whatever |
| 18:36 |
Taoki |
I support the use of high-res textures in custom games otherwise |
| 18:37 |
Taoki |
One of my plans is actually making a game of high quality, like with high-poly models and high-res textures. But that would also require a terrain block smoothing feature, which i discussed in the past |
| 18:37 |
Taoki |
i doubt that will ever get done |
| 18:37 |
* VanessaE |
used her 512px photorealistic textures. :-) |
| 18:37 |
VanessaE |
uses |
| 18:37 |
NakedFury |
adding ramps? |
| 18:37 |
Taoki |
so that placed dirt blocks won't stay blocks, but create a smooth surface |
| 18:37 |
Taoki |
Yes, hold on |
| 18:38 |
Taoki |
http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=28827 This |
| 18:38 |
VanessaE |
so the high-res textures are a done deal |
| 18:38 |
Taoki |
VanessaE: There's anoother problem (and feature request) with high-res textures I believe |
| 18:39 |
Taoki |
Textures are mapped 1 x 1 on the surface of each block. That can be too repetitive in some cases |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
high-poly models doesn't have to mean thousands of. 12 polys makes a cuboid, add just 8 more and you get something with an octagon cross-section, which looks a heck of a lot better than a cuboid for e.g. amn arm or leg |
| 18:39 |
Taoki |
What would also be needed, is a block setting to map the texture at a fixed amount over the blocks, not 1 x 1 onn each block |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
that would require very large texture files to support though |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
like 4096 px or higher |
| 18:39 |
Taoki |
VanessaE: By high-poly I meant the same quality a model in Unreal Tournament or Quake has (even the older ones from the early 00's) |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
I assumed |
| 18:40 |
Taoki |
1024 x 1024 is usually more than enough |
| 18:40 |
Taoki |
I think |
| 18:40 |
VanessaE |
but minetest doesn't need that much detail |
| 18:40 |
VanessaE |
in a 3d mob I mean |
| 18:40 |
VanessaE |
lesse... |
| 18:41 |
Taoki |
yeah. Not necessarily minetest_game, but I'd like to make custom games with that much detail |
| 18:41 |
Taoki |
And smooth terrain, but doubt anyone eill ever add that :( |
| 18:41 |
VanessaE |
20 polys per arm/leg is 80, plus about 40ish for the body makes 120, another 50-odd for the head and neck makes 170 polys. |
| 18:41 |
VanessaE |
considering the game renders, what, tens of thousands of polys for an average world and view distance? |
| 18:41 |
Anchakor |
Taoki: I contemplated the terrain smoothing stuff (something like marching cubes algorithm), but it is not really good |
| 18:42 |
VanessaE |
and considering you probably won't see more than a few dozen mobs at once (think animals, lots of players), you're talking about *maybe* a 10% performance hit. |
| 18:42 |
Taoki |
Anchakor: Did you get any code working? |
| 18:42 |
VanessaE |
that's 3fps. whoopdeedo. |
| 18:42 |
Taoki |
yes, performance would likely not be a problem |
| 18:42 |
Taoki |
I mean engines and computers those days handle dozens of models of thousands of polygons |
| 18:43 |
Taoki |
And irrlicht is a pretty good engine IIRC |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
yup |
| 18:43 |
Taoki |
Though I still wonder how MT wuld liik like on OGRE |
| 18:43 |
Taoki |
Since I think I tend to prefer OGRE |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
OGRE? |
| 18:43 |
Taoki |
generally |
| 18:43 |
Taoki |
It's another rendering engine like Irrlicht |
| 18:43 |
Taoki |
Very popular |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
oh ok |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
well either way |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
we're not talking about a huge number of extra polys, and there are plenty of us who do decent textures to wrap the mobs in, |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
and obviously someone has done the code ;-) |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
so what's the hold-up now, save for c55 being stubborn? |
| 18:44 |
Anchakor |
Taoki: nope |
| 18:45 |
Anchakor |
Taoki: I was just looking through the algorithms and what would be possible |
| 18:45 |
Taoki |
VanessaE: Yeah, Irrlicht already supports many model formats. MineTest probably just needs to agdd the hooks to render them in-game |
| 18:45 |
Taoki |
Anchakor: Ah, ok |
| 18:45 |
Taoki |
Shame since that feature would have been amazing |
| 18:45 |
VanessaE |
so I've heard |
| 18:46 |
Taoki |
Anchakor: Still, one might be able to at least cause some blocks to become diagonal, like water does. When placed between two blocks of thee same type |
| 18:46 |
Taoki |
VanessaE: Yeah, that's why I find it weird too. t's probably just a few hooks that need being put in place |
| 18:46 |
Taoki |
If I knew C++ and the MT code better I would have looked, but sadly I can't help much |
| 18:47 |
Taoki |
What I IMAGINE is the case, is that MineTest needs to know how to address the model render function in Irrlicht (including animations), and simply position a 3D model at the location of the mob / player and the size of its bounding box |
| 18:50 |
Taoki |
If someone with a little knowledge of the code could look into it, tha might be easy to figure out. Like I said I would if I had the skills already :/ Still, if anoyone here wants, I can at least help with testing or anything else |
| 18:54 |
Anchakor |
Taoki: btw http://www.volumesoffun.com/polyvox-about/ |
| 18:54 |
Taoki |
Anchakor: Yes, that's the smooth terrain im thinking of (I think |
| 18:55 |
Taoki |
I wish MineTest could have that as an optional setting for some blocks |
| 18:55 |
Anchakor |
http://www.volumesoffun.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=90&sid=6452d9930e0df1d13b5645c1c932640f |
| 18:56 |
Taoki |
Yes, that |
| 18:56 |
Anchakor |
this is how VanessaE's textures would look :) http://www.volumesoffun.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=97&sid=6452d9930e0df1d13b5645c1c932640f |
| 18:56 |
Taoki |
Even that would be nice |
| 18:56 |
Taoki |
But, smoother (more subdivisions) |
| 18:56 |
Taoki |
I wonder if it will ever happen here, this would be awesome |
| 18:57 |
Taoki |
Not for minetest_game again, but custom games. I want one like this too |
| 18:57 |
VanessaE |
Anchakor: ew. |
| 18:57 |
VanessaE |
my textures look far better in practice :-) |
| 18:58 |
Anchakor |
Taoki: problem is some nodes shouldn't be smoothed, like walls |
| 18:59 |
Taoki |
In my case its for smooth terrain |
| 18:59 |
Taoki |
even stone caves |
| 19:04 |
Taoki |
If not, I might want to at least turn dirt / sand / stone into slabs in my game. So all stone and dirt blocks would be slabs, even when naturally generated |
| 19:04 |
Taoki |
Not sure how that would look and work like. It would make hills you could walk up on without jjumping hwoever, and allow other stuff |
| 19:04 |
Taoki |
But so far dirt / stone and biomes are still hard coded. I'm also waiting for biomes to be put into LUA so they can be customized |
| 19:05 |
VanessaE |
actually it would look okay, as long as you can create simulated nodes for dirt <-> stone transitions and simiklar |
| 19:05 |
VanessaE |
similar |
| 19:06 |
VanessaE |
use 1/8 node sized blocks and I think it would look good, but it'll need a fair number of new nodes |
| 19:07 |
VanessaE |
only problem is, you can't drop fractional items, so the user gets a whole dirt block even if they dig a block that takes only a quarter of the node :-) |
| 19:08 |
Taoki |
You can set the dirt block to drop 2 dirt slabs instead. Or not merge slabs into blocks |
| 19:08 |
Taoki |
Not sure if the second one is possible |
| 19:09 |
VanessaE |
actually that's good, |
| 19:10 |
VanessaE |
make anything less than 100% of a node drop an item that is equivalent to 1/8 of a block, as long as you can craft several together to get larger pieces, assuming you need to. |
| 19:10 |
Taoki |
yeah |
| 19:10 |
VanessaE |
(have it drop as many such 1/8 blocks as would be needed to build back up the piece that was digged) |
| 19:11 |
Taoki |
But yah... I need to get back to the 3D mobs because I don't plan to start a custom game mode until I'm sure that's in :P |
| 19:11 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 19:12 |
Taoki |
I might make some fun stuff when I do though, if I'll understand the LUA app well |
| 19:15 |
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