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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-12-25

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Time Nick Message
00:01 Jordach ayy lmao
00:01 Jordach it's the 25th
00:04 kaadmy 24th for me ;)
00:07 Pulec joined #minetest
00:13 lemon same here
00:32 lemon OldCoder, this is what I made so far https://neboard.me/media/images/145099634124.png
00:33 OldCoder Reviewing
00:33 lemon I think I also should add formatting options. For instance, there could be a function to arrange data in the table or a graph.
00:33 OldCoder Advice: One step at a time
00:34 OldCoder It is satisfying
00:34 OldCoder to see things work
00:34 OldCoder Helps you to continue
00:34 OldCoder Parameterize what the other guy did
00:34 OldCoder So the text can be moved about
00:34 OldCoder Then worry about formatting
00:34 OldCoder Good first steps
00:34 OldCoder Merry xmas to u 2
00:34 lemon :D
00:36 lemon So you think there should be a way to move each widget around the screen freely?
00:36 lemon I thought I would just make one bar where everything will be added.
00:36 lemon So developers wouldn't need to worry about placing text.
00:38 OldCoder Reviewing
00:38 OldCoder Explain
00:38 OldCoder lemon
00:38 OldCoder Do you mean move programmatically?
00:39 lemon Well, there are no other way to move it except programmatically.
00:40 OldCoder Explain widget
00:40 OldCoder Do you mean question is
00:40 OldCoder Multiple widgets or single fixed location one?
00:40 OldCoder People will want choice
00:40 OldCoder Of where text goes
00:40 OldCoder And may want multiple blocks
00:40 OldCoder Each for a different purpose
00:40 OldCoder But you can start
00:41 Emperor_Genshin Merry Chrismas OldCoder
00:41 OldCoder With just one block at a caller-specified location
00:41 OldCoder Emperor_Genshin, hello t y and u 2
00:43 lemon https://github.com/slemonide/hu​d_monitor/blob/master/init.lua
00:45 OldCoder R
00:45 OldCoder Rename unless connected to HUD ?
00:45 OldCoder Add comments please
00:45 OldCoder Comments are what completes code
00:46 OldCoder And yes this is useful
00:46 OldCoder Add comments, test, release, profit
00:46 OldCoder 1-2-3-4
00:47 lemon OldCoder, it is related to HUD because information is displayed on HUD
00:47 OldCoder So this is an extension of sorts to the HUD mod?
00:48 OldCoder Not independent?
00:48 lemon HUD is hardcoded into minetest.
00:48 OldCoder Ah
00:48 OldCoder All right
00:48 OldCoder Add comments, test, release, profit
00:48 OldCoder 1-2-3-4
00:48 OldCoder 5 = fame
00:49 lemon :3
00:55 Blekpug I get hurt when I access my bones. I do not understand.
00:56 kaadmy hmm, that would sound weird had you said it in real life ;)
00:58 kaadmy does it say anything in chat when you take bones?
01:02 nanovad joined #minetest
01:28 lemon OldCoder, https://github.com/slemonide/hud_monitor
01:28 OldCoder R
01:29 OldCoder HUD monotor api: spell that monitor
01:29 OldCoder Reviewing further
01:29 OldCoder Change widged to widget
01:30 OldCoder Needs more comments. But if it works it is ready for release.
01:30 OldCoder Next step, make a thinner screenshot (less than 900 pixels wide)
01:30 OldCoder and announce your creation in the forums
01:30 OldCoder Then wait for the movie offers to come in
01:30 OldCoder
01:31 OldCoder lemon, ^
01:31 lemon What kind of comments?
01:32 OldCoder This is general and for the future. To explain:
01:32 OldCoder At the highest level, you have package comments or documentation
01:32 OldCoder That explain what a package does
01:32 OldCoder Then you have module comments
01:32 OldCoder At the top of a file
01:32 OldCoder Which explain the purpose and structure (sometimes) of a file
01:33 OldCoder Then you have procedure comments. These go before each function or subroutine
01:33 OldCoder To explain what the function or subroutine does
01:33 OldCoder Then you have block comments
01:33 OldCoder These go before blocks or sections of code
01:33 OldCoder Then sometimes you have inline comments about individual lines
01:34 OldCoder Lazy coders skip ALL of this
01:34 OldCoder Sensible coders do at least some of this
01:34 OldCoder In my view, masters do all of it. Aim for the middle if you like.
01:34 OldCoder Done.
01:34 OldCoder
01:35 Hirato I'm bad at commenting >_>
01:35 OldCoder Practice makes perfect
01:35 OldCoder You just did after all
01:35 Hirato the only comments I make are when I feel that I've written something that may not be intuitively obvious to the next person reading it
01:35 OldCoder /* I'm bad at commenting */
01:35 OldCoder Right
01:35 OldCoder And coders say
01:35 Blekpug kaadmy: I didn't notice anything in chat when I tried to take the bones. I destroyed the world. have not died since then.
01:36 OldCoder <coders> But I use good variable names!
01:36 OldCoder Honestly, good variable names are not enough
01:36 OldCoder But I am simply offering my view
01:36 OldCoder It is not a church pew
01:36 Hirato if I'm writing complex bitshift operators, the ratio of lines of code to lines of comments is about 1:3
01:36 OldCoder Between me and you
01:36 OldCoder Hi
01:36 OldCoder Yes good
01:36 OldCoder The fact is
01:36 OldCoder The code and the comments should be viewed as one
01:36 OldCoder If you comment as you go
01:36 Hirato but when I'm writing super obvious routines and structures, which is most of the time, it's about 100 : 1
01:37 OldCoder There are fewer bugs
01:37 OldCoder Right
01:37 OldCoder and your code
01:37 OldCoder is dead, in a sense
01:37 OldCoder Note the layers
01:37 OldCoder of comments that I referred to
01:37 OldCoder Only code that is truly structured is alive
01:37 OldCoder And only code that is truly commented
01:37 OldCoder is structured
01:37 OldCoder
01:37 OldCoder Comments are not castor oil
01:38 OldCoder Some sort of unpleasant medicine
01:38 OldCoder That coders are forced to take
01:38 OldCoder For code to truly live
01:38 OldCoder Comments are part of the process
01:38 OldCoder And they eliminate bugs
01:38 OldCoder
01:38 Hirato as far as I'm concerned, if my code ins't intent and purpose isn't intuitively readable and obvious, then I failed at my job
01:38 OldCoder Hm
01:39 OldCoder But...
01:39 Hirato the only things I really comment are weird quirks that might trip up the next person looking at it
01:39 OldCoder Hirato, pleased to meet you. This might be so on a line by line basis
01:39 OldCoder But how the heck
01:39 OldCoder Do you expect anybody to guess at the module level?
01:39 OldCoder Or even in many cases at the procedure level
01:39 OldCoder Answer that?
01:39 OldCoder ~bacon:@$($) goop();
01:40 OldCoder ^ typical line of C++ code
01:40 Hirato I am kind of lacking context :P
01:40 OldCoder Worthless rubbish
01:40 OldCoder Context is right above
01:40 OldCoder What you said
01:40 OldCoder may hold true
01:40 OldCoder at the line by line level
01:40 OldCoder But without comments at all the other levels
01:40 OldCoder Once you are gone
01:40 OldCoder Your code is legacy that must be reverse engineered
01:40 * OldCoder has spent much of a 40 year career doing this
01:40 OldCoder
01:40 Hirato what it does should be obvius by its name, parameters and return type
01:41 OldCoder For Pythonic tiny fragments yes
01:41 OldCoder How many real world legacy procedures are like that?
01:41 OldCoder Typical example:
01:41 OldCoder
01:41 OldCoder init()
01:41 OldCoder Oh boy
01:41 OldCoder It initializes
01:41 OldCoder Initializes WHAT ?
01:41 OldCoder And where are the APIs
01:41 OldCoder for entry points into the system
01:41 Hirato which gets a lot harder with any dynamically typed language
01:41 OldCoder to be guessed at?
01:41 OldCoder Same principles have always been there
01:42 * OldCoder started with C and FORTRAN
01:42 OldCoder Legacy code is dead code
01:42 OldCoder Variable names, feh
01:42 OldCoder Makes no difference
01:42 OldCoder Without comments
01:42 OldCoder A codebase is a cemetery
01:42 OldCoder
01:43 * OldCoder has heard the "good variable names" thing for years and laughs
01:43 OldCoder No offense intended
01:43 nanovad OldCoder: Good variable names! :)
01:43 OldCoder Yes
01:43 OldCoder int initialized = FALSE;
01:43 nanovad Honestly, if the code is written well enough, you shouldn't have to explain it.
01:43 OldCoder Ooh yes
01:43 OldCoder All set now!
01:43 nanovad I mean, does the author annotate everything he writes?
01:43 OldCoder Wrong. See above. It applies to line by line...
01:43 OldCoder Ideally, the language should require this.
01:43 OldCoder Without this...
01:43 OldCoder Where do you get
01:44 OldCoder the other levels? Tell me, how many...
01:44 OldCoder legacy systems have you worked on? State the number.
01:44 nanovad Legacy? Honestly, I'm too young to work on anything professionally.
01:44 Hirato https://github.com/Hirato/la​miae/tree/master/src/rpggame this code is about 3% comments, and 19% blank lines, this is the kind of stuff I write
01:44 OldCoder Ah. I mean no patronize nanovad but you will learn. Hirato Hi let me review.
01:45 nanovad I'm sure I will. I don't assume everything I say is right, after all, it's all opinion. :P
01:45 OldCoder Can I get a top-level link Hirato ?
01:45 OldCoder This is showing me diffs
01:46 Hirato I linked you there becuase most of the rest is standard engine stuff I inherited
01:46 OldCoder I see your repos
01:46 Hirato and why are you seeing diffs
01:46 OldCoder You linked to a commit
01:46 OldCoder Do you have a full source module?
01:46 Hirato no, I linked you to a specific subfolder
01:46 OldCoder It went to a diff
01:46 OldCoder Sorry
01:46 Hirato if it went to a diff, you clicked something
01:46 OldCoder -    conoutf(CON_ERROR, "failed to load sample: media/sound/%s%s", dir, name);
01:46 OldCoder +    conoutf(CON_ERROR, "failed to load sample: media/sounds/%s%s", dir, name);
01:47 OldCoder Not much to say about that
01:47 OldCoder Can you provide a favorite full source module?
01:47 Hirato :|
01:47 OldCoder Pick one you like
01:47 OldCoder No need for :|
01:47 OldCoder Share a particular source file
01:47 Hirato the :| is because I linked you to a folder of about 20 files
01:47 Hirato not to a specific commit
01:47 OldCoder Share a particular source file
01:48 OldCoder While you are thinking
01:48 OldCoder Here is one of mine
01:48 OldCoder http://oldcoder.org/general/​beworld/browse-beworld.html
01:48 OldCoder It's about 100 pages of code not counting data
01:48 OldCoder In a language I'd never really done before
01:48 OldCoder It is bug-free as far as I know
01:48 OldCoder Match that
01:48 OldCoder
01:48 OldCoder The comments make the difference
01:49 OldCoder Again... the comments are not castor oil. They are for *you* as well as for others.
01:49 OldCoder They are part of the process.
01:49 OldCoder Tell you what, Google for recursive math parser
01:49 OldCoder Those three words
01:50 OldCoder Do you see perlcoder.net in the top 5 hits or so?
01:50 OldCoder I suppose you can guess who perlcoder.net is
01:50 OldCoder Browse that code
01:50 OldCoder And you'll understand why it's in the top 5 hits above Wikipedia
01:50 OldCoder Tired and no intent to be condescending
01:51 OldCoder Simply telling you the way it is
01:51 OldCoder Uncommented code is incomplete code and, in the end, it is dead code
01:51 OldCoder R.I.P.
01:51 OldCoder Especially C++ BTW.
01:52 OldCoder http://www.perlcoder.net/general/​parsemath/parsemath-listing.html
01:53 OldCoder ^ Top 5 hits. Commented. Not a coincidence.
01:53 OldCoder
01:56 Hirato I don't really understand it
01:57 OldCoder One of the two programs? If not, this underscores the point.
01:57 OldCoder Code is art. A personal expression.
01:58 Hirato i'm just going to assume it's because I don't know shit about perl
01:58 OldCoder In a context where understanding and reproducibility matter.
01:58 OldCoder No...
01:58 OldCoder You can do all languages Hirato
01:58 OldCoder But I'll hold off on that tangent
01:58 OldCoder You may not understand the code
01:58 OldCoder But the comments spell out the purpose
01:59 OldCoder Without one, the expression that you don't follow, you still have the other
01:59 OldCoder The purpose and the meaning
01:59 OldCoder You could, therefore, make decisions
01:59 OldCoder Related to this code despite "don't really understand it"
01:59 OldCoder This is the way it's supposed to be
01:59 OldCoder Code is not supposed to be a Van Gogh painting
01:59 OldCoder
02:00 OldCoder The Tcl program I linked above that
02:00 OldCoder You'd have zero chance of understanding parts without the comments
02:00 OldCoder Despite the purity of the concept
02:00 OldCoder And the high quality of the code
02:00 OldCoder The comments are the bridge, the way in
02:00 OldCoder The mapping of the concepts
02:00 OldCoder They are not disposable
02:00 OldCoder
02:01 OldCoder That code writes itself, Hirato. Zero chance of following without comments.
02:01 * OldCoder hums the song "A Song That Sings Itself".
02:01 OldCoder
02:02 Hirato still, it's a lot harder to read unfamiliar languages than familiar ones
02:02 OldCoder This  is a  CLI calculator program that takes a single  arithmetic ex-
02:02 OldCoder pression as an argument, evaluates it, and prints the result to stand-
02:02 OldCoder ard output.
02:02 OldCoder Yes, this is true
02:02 Hirato I can tell that much
02:02 OldCoder But you could do Perl in a day
02:02 Hirato I can also see it has some concept of precedence, a few named operators, and uses less
02:02 OldCoder Right. The particular program was not really the point.
02:02 OldCoder The point was that the comments are your way in.
02:02 OldCoder They can't teach you Perl directly
02:03 Hirato and I understand how to call it, but only because there was an example in a comment
02:03 OldCoder Yes. The most rudimentary knowledge of the language and with the comments you'd be good to go.
02:03 OldCoder Look, let's admit it
02:03 OldCoder Unless coders are engaged in a startup
02:03 OldCoder Something personal
02:03 OldCoder They often don't give a sh*t about what happens after they leave
02:04 OldCoder And they consider comments to be a ridiculous burden
02:04 OldCoder Not based on any principles or logic
02:04 DI3HARD139 joined #minetest
02:04 OldCoder But because they can get away with leaving sh*t behind
02:04 OldCoder Nobody is really going to hunt them down for it
02:04 OldCoder So you get stuff like this
02:04 OldCoder At one firm
02:04 OldCoder The CEO had a vague recollection
02:05 OldCoder That somebody had added some Saleforce functionality to the main system
02:05 OldCoder Surely somebody could extend that
02:05 OldCoder And he could claim that the system was Salesforce * compatible
02:05 OldCoder
02:05 OldCoder There were rumors
02:05 OldCoder that the Salesforce functionality had actually existed
02:05 OldCoder Names floated about
02:06 OldCoder Nobody actually knew for sure where it was
02:06 OldCoder Or what language had been used
02:06 OldCoder Or even what the functionality had been
02:06 OldCoder In the end it turned out
02:06 OldCoder That one coder whose job was safe
02:06 OldCoder Because only she knew the codebase
02:07 JohnnyComeL8ly joined #minetest
02:07 OldCoder Had, years before, done some sort of online widget in JS on some hosted site
02:07 OldCoder Never written anything down
02:07 OldCoder Forgotten the name of the site
02:07 OldCoder And had saved not a scrap of the code
02:07 OldCoder This is actually...
02:07 OldCoder typical
02:07 OldCoder The usual way
02:07 OldCoder
02:07 Hirato I fail to see how "commenting" would avert any of this
02:07 OldCoder Did not finish
02:08 OldCoder The point is that it hardly makes sense to complain about comments. The arguments against them are largely bullsh*t put forth by lazy coders...
02:08 OldCoder who left to their own devices
02:08 OldCoder document nothing, save nothing, and move on
02:08 OldCoder Leaving legacy ruins in their wake
02:08 OldCoder
02:09 OldCoder Comments are the bridge into the code for those who come after
02:09 OldCoder And the means to prevent bugs
02:09 OldCoder For those who create
02:09 OldCoder And as I've suggested just above
02:09 OldCoder They're only one part of the picture
02:09 OldCoder
02:09 OldCoder At any rate
02:09 OldCoder You have two sample modules of mine
02:09 OldCoder The Tcl one makes one of the points better
02:09 OldCoder The code is perfect, in its way
02:09 OldCoder So what? Without comments
02:10 Hirato what you've told me speaks of poor discipline and policies
02:10 OldCoder You'd have no way in. You'd be lost.
02:10 OldCoder Indeed. And comments are part of this.
02:10 OldCoder Poor or not, Hirato, it is usual
02:10 OldCoder
02:10 OldCoder Small and large firms. Typical, not abnormal.
02:11 Hirato and you got a whole project of mine
02:11 OldCoder I should refrain from telling more stories. I've got a good one though...
02:11 OldCoder I still have not seen Hirato
02:11 OldCoder a specific module
02:11 Hirato you have, you jsut someone opened up the last commit
02:11 OldCoder That you'd like to suggest I look at
02:11 Hirato **somehow
02:11 OldCoder Will you pick one module
02:11 OldCoder for review?
02:11 OldCoder Not a folder, but one module to start?
02:11 Hirato that folder is all interconnected
02:12 OldCoder Hirato, I am physically tired and have talked about this when I ought not to. Will you share a favorite module that illustrates your style?
02:12 OldCoder Or approach; whatever you wish to call it.
02:12 nolsen joined #minetest
02:19 Hirato I can't really think of a favourite file
02:20 OldCoder Any typical file that is representative?
02:20 OldCoder And entirely your own code?
02:20 Hirato https://github.com/Hirato/lamiae/​blob/master/src/rpggame/rpggame.h may as well go with the main header file I guess
02:21 OldCoder R
02:21 Hirato that rpggame folder is 100% my code :p
02:21 Hirato hence I linked to it
02:21 OldCoder O.K. thanks. You realize there's essentially zero comments in this module. You feel that's fine. Not much to discuss.
02:21 kaadmy OldCoder: seems kinda like a one-sided conversation :)
02:21 Hirato yeah, I know
02:22 OldCoder kaadmy, in what sense? I've made points and waited for responses.
02:22 OldCoder Hirato, the people who get to judge that code
02:22 OldCoder are not you
02:22 Hirato there's 400 lines or so lines shared between all those files
02:22 OldCoder You understand that as well, right?
02:22 OldCoder What matters, where it counts, is what happens when others try to come in later
02:22 kaadmy chat logs from ~20 min ago ;-)
02:23 OldCoder kaadmy, again, your point? I made comments, ironically enough, and waited for responses.
02:23 OldCoder The phrase "one-sided" would seem to be deprecation without concrete meaning.
02:24 Hirato I do think it's the file with the most comments...
02:26 OldCoder Hirato, that is a relative statement. Not relevant to what I said a minute ago, gently.
02:26 OldCoder You'll note I've tried to speak gently
02:26 OldCoder kaadmy, FYI ^
02:26 OldCoder <OldCoder> Hirato, the people who get to judge that code
02:26 OldCoder <OldCoder> are not you
02:27 OldCoder <OldCoder> You understand that as well, right?
02:27 OldCoder <OldCoder> What matters, where it counts, is what happens when others try to come in later
02:27 OldCoder ^ The points
02:27 OldCoder
02:27 OldCoder This is a creation. A work of art though as I said Van Gogh is not the point.
02:28 OldCoder What matters
02:28 OldCoder is that part of it is still inside a head
02:28 OldCoder Your head
02:28 OldCoder It needs to come out
02:28 OldCoder
02:28 OldCoder Create code for the ages, though that is difficult with C++
02:28 Hirato you'll notice I basically treat it like C with some bells and whistles
02:28 * OldCoder has noticed that C++ code tends to break with the turning of the seasons
02:29 OldCoder Right, that does help
02:29 * OldCoder usual reaction to C++ is
02:29 OldCoder O_O
02:29 * OldCoder loves all languages dearly
02:29 OldCoder Except this one
02:29 Hirato you should see what the compilers do, geez
02:29 OldCoder And maybe WhiteSpace <- google that
02:29 OldCoder Oh yes
02:29 Hirato 80+ character monstrosity, optimised to 1 instruction
02:30 OldCoder Oh lord yes
02:30 OldCoder and the standard changes
02:30 OldCoder and it is all lost
02:30 * OldCoder has just finished trying to recompile his entire distro
02:30 Hirato you'll also notice I almost completely avoided a lot of C++ features, like templates
02:31 OldCoder Yes to this as well
02:31 OldCoder Heh
02:31 OldCoder Close to straight C
02:31 OldCoder Which is good
02:31 OldCoder Have not said anything negative about the code at all
02:31 OldCoder Please note
02:31 OldCoder Only that those who will judge it are those who come after
02:32 OldCoder And need to work on it
02:32 OldCoder It is pretty simple
02:32 OldCoder Add a few comments and it will be clear as glass
02:32 Hirato and we in the cube world don't care for the standard template library as well, we wrote our own before C++ really shipped them and just kept using them
02:32 OldCoder In fact
02:32 OldCoder This code is interesting
02:32 Hirato I'm glad you're intrigued
02:32 OldCoder Couldn't you write your own system to generate it?
02:32 OldCoder Everything in this file
02:33 OldCoder Could have come from a standard mechanism
02:33 OldCoder A base library and some config files
02:33 OldCoder Right?
02:33 Hirato I guess
02:33 OldCoder Sorry, just thinking
02:34 OldCoder Anyway the code is fine for what it is. I have said what I should.
02:34 OldCoder if you wish the code to live on
02:34 OldCoder If this is a labor of love
02:34 JohnnyComeL8ly joined #minetest
02:34 OldCoder Add what is needed; the comments.
02:34 OldCoder
02:34 Taoki joined #minetest
02:34 Hirato I did start this when i knew almost nothing :P
02:36 OldCoder Then you are coming along. You know nothing I've said has been intended to be discouraging.
02:36 OldCoder To the contrary
02:36 OldCoder You mentioned not knowing Perl
02:36 OldCoder Get into the habit of thinking comments and you'll find that different languages start to feel like
02:36 OldCoder Different expressions of the same thing
02:37 Hirato I know, it's understanding the expressions
02:37 OldCoder This is a positive point, not a straightjacket
02:37 OldCoder Yes
02:37 OldCoder You can focus on one language if you wish, but no real need to do so
02:37 OldCoder Except for the language or framework that pays the rent
02:37 OldCoder These days, everybody is supposed to have a specialty
02:37 Hirato at the moment that's VB.NET *shudder*
02:37 OldCoder ogod :P
02:38 * OldCoder does Windows only under duress
02:38 Hirato you define an array of size 8, guess what the bounds are in VB
02:38 * OldCoder does not know
02:38 OldCoder ?
02:38 Hirato I'll give you 2 guesses :3
02:39 OldCoder But but
02:39 OldCoder This requires logic
02:39 OldCoder and O_O
02:39 OldCoder MS logic?
02:39 OldCoder Hm
02:39 Hirato 4,4It's 0-8 inclusive
02:39 OldCoder Define bounds for me
02:39 OldCoder If that is OK to ask
02:40 Hirato lower bound, the index for the first element, upper bound, index of the final element
02:40 OldCoder Right
02:40 * OldCoder counts on fingers and toes
02:40 OldCoder So it isn't 0..7 or 1..8 ?
02:41 Hirato indeed
02:41 Hirato it's 0 to 8, inclusive
02:41 OldCoder Um
02:41 OldCoder What do they map to?
02:41 Hirato so 9 elements for a size 8 array
02:41 OldCoder What...
02:41 OldCoder You know the question
02:41 OldCoder What is the extra element?
02:42 Hirato if you define an array as Dim myArray as Integer(8), the bounds are 0 to 8, inclusive
02:42 OldCoder Right
02:42 OldCoder But if you use all the indices
02:42 OldCoder indexes
02:42 OldCoder What do you get?
02:42 OldCoder Are they all usable?
02:42 Hirato yup, all usable
02:42 OldCoder Um
02:42 OldCoder Oooo.... kay
02:42 Hirato I think they get set to 'Nothing' which gets converted to 0 for numbers
02:43 OldCoder You really ought to see if there is UNIX-Linux work
02:43 Hirato (that's their word for Null)
02:43 OldCoder But I suppose MS will pay the bills
02:43 Hirato in Australia? bloody likely, haha
02:43 OldCoder You are down-under? Cornernote is there
02:43 OldCoder He does PHP webdev
02:43 OldCoder Why are you doing MS if it is not popular and high paid?
02:44 Hirato if I learned anything at uni, I'd pick VB over PHP every day
02:44 OldCoder Go on
02:44 OldCoder So you find positives in the language?
02:45 Hirato It's more than PHP was really bad
02:45 Hirato then people link me to bugs like this https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=61095
02:46 OldCoder R
02:47 Hirato it was a long time ago, I don't really remember it
02:47 OldCoder Every language is worthwhile except C++
02:47 OldCoder PHP has its place
02:47 OldCoder That place is not
02:47 OldCoder really in the construction of large mission criticial systems
02:47 OldCoder :-)
02:47 Hirato it was a crappy web dev unit
02:47 OldCoder Go on
02:48 OldCoder The cours
02:48 OldCoder The course *
02:48 OldCoder was PHP and not well done?
02:48 Hirato nah, they covered both ASP.NET (with VB) and PHP
02:48 OldCoder Oi
02:48 OldCoder That is quite a combination
02:48 OldCoder "Two great tastes that taste great together" ?
02:48 Hirato you chad to use both for the first assignment, the second one you could pick your favourite
02:49 OldCoder Which did you do
02:49 Hirato for the second? Asp.NET with C#
02:49 OldCoder Sealing your destiny :P
02:49 OldCoder O.K. so you can make .NET sing
02:49 OldCoder It does have a future
02:49 OldCoder It is not really best for your own projects
02:49 OldCoder C++ is a horror
02:50 OldCoder But this leaves dozens of languages
02:50 OldCoder to choose from
02:50 Hirato yeah
02:50 Hirato I was thinking of playing with D, but dmd is pretty bad
02:50 OldCoder Probably omit Malbolge :-)
02:50 Hirato which is a shame, because the language has some really nice features
02:50 OldCoder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge
02:51 OldCoder There's Perl, Node, Go, Python
02:51 OldCoder A number of other contenders
02:51 OldCoder Most seem to lean Python these days
02:51 OldCoder But Python3 was a pretty bad wrong turn
02:51 Hirato i'd pick python too :P
02:51 OldCoder There you go then
02:52 Hirato I have no interest in web development though
02:52 OldCoder This is refreshing
02:52 OldCoder Gamedev?
02:52 OldCoder Hirato, ^
02:52 OldCoder That means C/C++ for most things
02:52 Hirato what I know of the industry, I'd prefer to keep that a hobby
02:53 OldCoder Well yes
02:53 OldCoder There is professional
02:53 OldCoder There are your startups
02:53 OldCoder or ventures or FOSS projects
02:53 OldCoder If gamedev is a hobby that is fine
02:53 Hirato the project I linked you too is zlib licensed
02:53 OldCoder Don't you get weary
02:53 OldCoder Good
02:53 OldCoder Pretty generous license
02:54 OldCoder Don't you get weary of MS changes just trying to maintain lockin?
02:54 OldCoder Of course this means job security
02:54 Hirato they don't bother us too much with .NET
02:54 OldCoder All right
02:55 OldCoder Hirato, nice chatting. Called away for an hour or so. Feel free to ping.
02:55 OldCoder o/
02:55 Hirato so far this year, there was one security update that broke our product's web service component if the .NET we built against had the patch but the local machine didn't
02:56 Hirato as for next year, we just moved everything to .NET 4.6 from 4.0
02:56 Hirato only problem so far, absolutely retarded CompareTo functions people wrote decades back
02:57 Hirato to elaborate, since .NET 4.5, MS throws a 'BadArgumentException' if the sorting algorithm says both a > b and b > a is true
02:57 kaadmy malboge.. isn't that the one that took some years for someone to write something with it? and the first program was generated via computer?
02:58 Hirato and whoever wrote the damn thing thought it was a good idea to just return -1 for every comparison
02:58 kaadmy and the creator has never written anything with it?
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03:05 LazyJ Why does Minetest use the png format for textures as opposed to jpg, even on the non-transparent textures?
03:09 Emperor_Genshin LazyJ, Isn't png format lightweight compared to jpg formatting?
03:10 LazyJ jpg produces a smaller file in most cases. png keeps the alpha-channel, where as the jpg does not, so in those cases the pngs are larger.
03:11 LazyJ Minetest will accept jpg format and so far my test have shown that non-transparent textures (like stone) can be made slightly smaller if jpg is used instead of png.
03:12 LazyJ For overlays, the png is required because of the alpha-channel transparency... I'm guessing.
03:13 JohnnyComeL8ly LazyJ, I just looked it up... you don't have to have an alpha channel.
03:13 LazyJ Even after using a program like pngquant or jpegoptim, the jpg's are still smaller.
03:13 JohnnyComeL8ly In png, that is.
03:13 LazyJ Even without the alpha-channel, the jpgs are still smaller.
03:15 LazyJ Last summer a lot of default images were "crushed" and VanessaE went through her mods and texture packs to optimize the size of the texture files.
03:15 LazyJ With the push to have smaller files, I wondered why jpg wasn't used.
03:16 Hirato optipng is the thing to use
03:16 LazyJ Is there something about jpgs that the MT engine doesn't like?
03:16 Hirato do keep in mind that minetest's textures are pretty low res, so JPEG compression would stand out like a sore thumb
03:16 Emperor_Genshin ^this
03:16 Hirato and it still uses the same amount of VRMA in the end
03:17 LazyJ optipng works but is much slower, particularly on larger images (65mb+). pngquant is faster but reduces the colors to a 256-color pallet.
03:17 kaadmy VRAM*
03:17 LazyJ Or palette?
03:17 Hirato optipng is slower because it does tests, also it can do reduction to palettes and stuff too if the texture has only 255 colours
03:17 kaadmy doesn't minetest use indexed color for images already?
03:18 VanessaE LazyJ: jpg isn't used much because it doesn't work so great on low-resolution images or pixel art
03:18 Emperor_Genshin ^this
03:18 VanessaE with stuff like HDX< it works quite well most of the time
03:18 LazyJ When I used jpgs, I set the compression to "100%"... best quality, less compression, and the jpgs were still smaller than the png textures.
03:18 VanessaE plus a fair number of minetest's images need transparency, which needs png
03:19 VanessaE even "100%" is lossy
03:19 kaadmy basically all tools and items
03:19 Hirato am I imagining things, or does JPG2K support alpha?
03:19 VanessaE kaadmy: right.
03:19 VanessaE Hirato: it might, but nothing supports jpeg2k :P
03:19 DI3HARD139 Is there a way to have mods stored on the server and client sided so the server doesnt have to send all the files to the client?
03:19 Hirato alas
03:19 VanessaE DI3HARD139: once the media has been sent, it's cached.  the code is never sent.
03:20 kaadmy aren't mod assets checked for existing ones?
03:20 VanessaE tep
03:20 VanessaE yep*
03:20 Hirato them md5's mang
03:20 DI3HARD139 Is there a way to permanently store the media so it doesn't have to be resent?
03:20 kaadmy present*?
03:20 VanessaE DI3HARD139: sure - don't clear your cache :P
03:21 Hirato and don't change it, I think it matches by md5 sum
03:21 VanessaE minetest keeps a persistent cache that, as far as I know, never gets emptied.
03:21 VanessaE Hirato: sha1 I think.
03:21 Hirato even better
03:21 DI3HARD139 I usually don't. Just trying to figure out ways to speed up media fetch times.
03:21 kaadmy unless you clear it ;-)
03:21 VanessaE DI3HARD139: make sure both ends are using cURL and remote media.
03:21 Hirato there's an option somewhere to only load the media as you need it, maybe try that?
03:22 kaadmy afaik just downloading the mod locally will work?
03:22 VanessaE and always make sure to copy your cache dir over when you update minetest, if you're using run-in-place builds.
03:22 LazyJ But is the cache changed when logging into a different server?
03:22 VanessaE kaadmy: download it and using it once.
03:22 VanessaE LazyJ: no.  the files are cached and named by their hash
03:22 LazyJ Particularly if one server uses a newer or older version of the same mod?
03:22 VanessaE so you could have a dozen default_cobble.png if they were all different.
03:23 kaadmy yep
03:23 Hirato if the file's the same, it won't resend it
03:23 VanessaE if the file differs, it'll have a different SHA1 hash and thus, it'll be saved as a unique file.
03:23 DI3HARD139 I connect to the server at the local level on a 1Gbps uplink and it still takes forever XD
03:23 kaadmy the server might have bad bandwith
03:24 VanessaE a lot of the time spent on media now is acquiring average colors for the minimap.
03:24 VanessaE and that process is not cached.
03:24 kaadmy ahh
03:24 DI3HARD139 that explains alot lol
03:24 DI3HARD139 a lot*
03:24 kaadmy is it only done if the minimap's enabled?
03:24 VanessaE so when you have a shitton of media files, minetest spends a while tearing through them for data to be used to render the minimap
03:24 VanessaE it's done every startup.
03:24 VanessaE kahrl and I were chatting about this the other day.
03:25 kaadmy could it work to get the pixel nearest the image center for the minimap color?
03:26 DI3HARD139 I'm partially blaming the HDD for the issues. It's been slowing down quite a bit. Good ole sh***y toshiba 2.5" HDDs
03:26 VanessaE DI3HARD139: yes, that matters too.  an SSD will greatly speed up initial media loading
03:26 VanessaE (like 3x faster compared to modern spinning rust, I guess)
03:27 DI3HARD139 likely more than that aslong as the data bus can handle it
03:27 DI3HARD139 but sadly its sata rev. 2 so there wont be much of a benefit other than seek times
03:28 VanessaE well
03:28 VanessaE my drive and board are SATA2
03:28 VanessaE and even then SSD is a great enhancement over spinning rust
03:29 VanessaE that's where I got the 3x figure from; an SSD-on-PCIe card would be close to 10x faster
03:29 DI3HARD139 thats what I thought about doing. I have a ton of PCIe lanes going to waste
03:30 * DI3HARD139 wonders how large the mods folder is now
03:31 kaadmy DI3HARD139: if you're using linux, go to the mods folder and type 'du -sh .'
03:31 VanessaE my whole mods tree, including stuff I don't use anywhere, attic, and old versions of stuff, is 547 MB
03:32 kaadmy if you have the technic subgame, it's ~140 mb
03:32 VanessaE though my servers all maybe total 50MB of unique media between them
03:32 VanessaE my whole games tree is 687 megs
03:32 VanessaE but that's including things like git history too
03:32 VanessaE to rather bloated compared to what a client gets.
03:33 DI3HARD139 I'm using 100.1MB w/ 13,842 items (all updated to latest stable)
03:33 VanessaE so*
03:33 DI3HARD139 The directory is shared by all but 1 server
03:50 DI3HARD139 enabled the mapfix mod.....  good bye sunlight XD
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04:09 kaeza asdf
04:09 kaeza merry birthday
04:10 kaeza or whatever it was
04:10 kaeza :P
04:10 everamzah how about that weather tho?
04:11 Emperor_Genshin merry birthday lol
04:13 DI3HARD139 merry birthday?
04:14 DI3HARD139 whos birthday is tomorrow?
04:16 kaeza fsm's? idk, & idrc. ttgd
04:16 Emperor_Genshin ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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04:18 Emperor_Genshin Whoever has a birthday at 12/25 Merry Birthday I guess lol
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04:18 kaeza now, in all seriousness, merry christmas/winter solstice/whatever, all
04:18 Emperor_Genshin Merry Chrismas kaeza
04:22 LazyJ Here's a Christmas wish for Minetest - alphabetized texture pack list in the main menu's "Texturepacks" tab.
04:22 DI3HARD139 I want a central mod list built into the game
04:23 LazyJ ... and the return of the old, simpler, "Settings" tab. Keep the current one, rename it "Advanced Settings" and bring back the old one as "Settings".
04:23 DI3HARD139 ^
04:24 everamzah a search bar would be nice, while we're wishing.  i spent so much time looking for a setting to turn off particles and just gave up
04:28 sofar file a github issue for those
04:29 sofar they're reasonable requests, so might as well make them official requests
04:29 * everamzah backs away slowly
04:29 sofar if you can't bother to open a ticket, why would anyone bother to fix it?
04:30 everamzah ok okaaay i'm going gahhh
04:30 LazyJ I think the settings tab addition has been posted... either on GitHub or the MT forums... can't remember which atm.
04:33 everamzah the addition for making the current (new) one an "advanced" settings menu, and restoring the original settings menu for the main menu tab
04:33 everamzah yes
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04:42 kaeza lel Atomic sux
04:43 kaeza bad
04:44 kaeza suggest a reasonable IRC client for Android
04:47 DI3HARD139 AndroIRC
04:49 VanessaE AndChat
04:51 rom1504 glowing bear
04:52 DI3HARD139 rollback is nice and all until someone rejoins 2 months later and u have to check 9999999999999s ago because they didnt protect a portion....
04:59 Emperor_Genshin lel, happens
05:01 kaeza AndroIRX sucks as bad, if not more (without even complaining about nonfred SW)
05:01 DI3HARD139 why? I havn't had any probs with it
05:04 kaeza crashes often, interface is horrendous (pkay, my opinion, but still...)
05:04 kaeza or maybe my device sucks? idk
05:05 kaeza it's christmas complaining hour
05:06 kaeza aka, stopping #minetest being so silent
05:07 kaeza :P
05:08 DI3HARD139 I agree. Its way to silent
05:08 DI3HARD139 Is there a reason why the sun in Minetest would turn white and there isnt any sunlight?
05:11 exio4 kaeza: yaaic
05:12 exio4 kaeza: \o
05:12 exio4 oh wait, Atomic is a "mantained" yaaic :/
05:13 DI3HARD139 could always use kiwi via chrome (not sure if works in firefox on android)
05:16 kaadmy atomic does suck, im using irccloud now
05:16 kaadmy handles caching, which is a big prob for me.
05:17 VanessaE kaeza: don't care for AndChat?
05:19 exio4 my go-to irc client on android is a ssh (ideally mosh) client to my server =)
05:19 VanessaE heh
05:19 exio4 happy xmas if you happen to celebrate it
05:19 DI3HARD139 u aswell exio3
05:19 DI3HARD139 exio4*
05:19 exio4 it's mostly an excuse to drink some alcohol, with family and have some fun :)
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05:22 lemon everamzah, just use minetest.conf
05:25 DI3HARD139 I wonder if anyone built a raspberry pi into a keyboard.....
05:26 kaadmy =faster TRS-80
05:26 kaadmy waay faster :P
05:26 DI3HARD139 indeed
05:32 Emperor_Genshin For those who likes cats lel, http://jokideo.com/wp-content/uploads​/meme/2014/12/Christmas-cat-meme.jpg
05:35 everamzah lemon: indeed. on principle, however, in old settings menu "enable particles" was a one-click jobbie. i'm ok with editing a config file, but thought maybe this was a bit of a regression
05:35 everamzah also glowing bear
05:36 Emperor_Genshin kaeza, this is what I had in mind to share. I still need to work on a timer for it's sequences https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=9&amp;t=13775
05:37 DI3HARD139 I hope this goes well. I've been looking for something like that forever
05:37 DI3HARD139 !
05:38 DI3HARD139 Would it be possible to increase the activation level though?
05:38 Emperor_Genshin It's quite possible in a way
05:38 DI3HARD139 Ok. *adds to bookmarks since theres no follow button*
05:42 lemon I think what minetest lacks is proper units of measurements.
05:43 lemon There should be an universal unit system for minetest.
05:44 DI3HARD139 Is there a way to reduce the player position check of the server? Im having issues with the vehicle mods on my servers suddenly halting movement. anti-cheat is disabled
05:46 everamzah /set dedicated_server_step perhaps?
05:46 Emperor_Genshin ^that could help a bit
05:47 DI3HARD139 I have it set to 0.1 atm
05:47 DI3HARD139 any suggestions of what to increase it to?
05:47 Emperor_Genshin perhaps 0.3
05:48 Emperor_Genshin ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
05:48 DI3HARD139 I just set it to 1
05:48 Emperor_Genshin 1 or more makes movement terrible
05:48 DI3HARD139 oh... ok
05:48 DI3HARD139 hmmm
05:48 Emperor_Genshin trust me, I've tried it
05:55 DI3HARD139 0.3 didnt make a difference. Set it to 0 and IRC doesn't work anymore XD
05:56 Emperor_Genshin lol, oh well
05:56 Emperor_Genshin hmm
05:56 Emperor_Genshin try 0.5 or 0.10
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05:59 Emperor_Genshin kaeza, what do you think of this? https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=9&amp;t=13775
06:12 kaeza Emperor_Genshin: too lazy/drunk to review code, but again, +1 for the general idea
06:13 kaeza :D
06:13 Emperor_Genshin thanks :3
06:13 kaeza sowwy
06:13 Emperor_Genshin it's ok
06:18 DI3HARD139 How can I adjust the length of the day/night?
06:18 DI3HARD139 Server is stuck at night reguardless of the time and its driving me nuts
06:19 lemon Suppose I have some table and I want to create a field as in the following example: pies[player][id] = 900. if pies[player] is not created, it won't work.
06:20 lemon Should I use "if not pies[player] then pies[player] = {} end" construction?
06:20 Emperor_Genshin DI3HARD139, time_speed
06:21 lemon or is there a better way to handle this problem?
06:21 DI3HARD139 I adjusted that. Its 11:05 am igt and its still dark
06:22 DI3HARD139 it was a setting in a mod... as usual
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07:22 Thomas-S hi
07:30 Thomas-S bye
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07:36 lemon https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopi​c.php?f=9&amp;t=13795&amp;p=202584
07:40 nm0i conky
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08:04 Krock Merry Christmas everyone!
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08:15 Blekpug Mod Desert Uses is now unavailable. https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=3761
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08:17 lemon Blekpug, screenshots?
08:18 Krock no screenshorts, it's just down
08:19 Krock Blekpug, I don't have that mod on my HDD right now but there might be someone else who can upload it again :)
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09:52 Blekpug Is renaming a player as easy as changing the file name?
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09:54 Thomas-S hi
10:18 Krock Blekpug, no, you also must change the auth.txt file
10:18 Krock after that's done you also have to change all metadata in map.sqlite
10:18 Krock In short: It takes too much work to rename someone
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10:46 Blekpug Thanks for the info. I'll make sure to pick a name in advance now.
10:47 Ingar been using the same nickname for the past 20 years, it kinda simplifies things :D
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11:19 Blekpug I am attempting to use the HDX texture pack. I have tried putting it in /usr/local/share/minetest/textures/HDX and then also under a 'pack' directory. minetest does not find it. I am using minetest from git master branch. VanessaE
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12:00 Blekpug I flew around in a MapGen 7 world. It didn't look bad. Underground water, No lava.
12:00 VanessaE Blekpug: about HDX, put the whole folder in <minetest dir>/textures/
12:01 VanessaE (usually ~/.minetest/textures for global installs)
12:01 VanessaE then enable it in the menu in the Texture Packs tab
12:01 Blekpug I had only the directory with the PNG files, perhaps that was the problem.
12:01 VanessaE nope
12:01 Blekpug I'll try again.
12:01 VanessaE that's not the prob
12:02 VanessaE just make sure you have the whole pack
12:02 VanessaE you should have e.g.,  ~/.minetest/textures/HDX-256/<bunch of png and jpg files here>
12:04 VanessaE (or at least that's how I arrange mine)
12:08 Blekpug It is found if I use ~/.minetest textures but not /usr(/local)?/share/minetest/textures.
12:09 VanessaE I'm not sure if the engine will look there or not.
12:11 Thomas-S bye
12:13 CWz well mobs_redo is broken
12:14 rubenwardy wow...
12:14 Blekpug I like it so far with 32px.
12:15 rubenwardy MSG: your report or feedback can jump kill allow (no mods online)
12:15 rubenwardy Silly people. The help I gave was "To report someone or something, type /report your report or feedback"
12:16 rubenwardy I also have 51 messages in my server inbox
12:16 rubenwardy reports
12:20 Blekpug Poll: when you build subteranean homes or bases, do you do it at coordinates of your desire and excavate what and where you want? or do you embrace the chaos and use existing caverns?
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12:39 kkk_ hey
12:39 kkk_ wzup
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12:59 Jordach merry christmas
12:59 Jordach ayy lmao
12:59 Krock Merry christmas :)
12:59 Jordach is dank
13:00 Jordach bought a steam controller
13:00 Krock now you can control the money
13:00 Krock steam money
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13:11 MinetestBot [git] sapier AT gmx dot net -> minetest/minetest: Add missing documentation of automatic_face_movement_max_rotation_per_sec entity parameter cdbb9ef http://git.io/vE2VY (2015-12-25T14:11:39+01:00)
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15:42 MinetestBot [git] sofar -> minetest/minetest_game: Remove spores from mushrooms. 32bdb9a http://git.io/vEafN (2015-12-25T15:37:40Z)
15:42 MinetestBot [git] sofar -> minetest/minetest_game: Verify node type is facedir. 82299b9 http://git.io/vEafA (2015-12-25T15:37:17Z)
15:42 MinetestBot [git] kilbith -> minetest/minetest_game: Add a search field to the creative inventory b1e2ece http://git.io/vEafx (2015-12-25T15:36:55Z)
15:45 sapier does anyone know about a portal mod?
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16:24 JohnnyComeL8ly MERRY Christmas!
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16:42 Blekpug What are the rules for growing trees?  They need a certain amount of light at least. Is the light incident on their block or only on the top face? Must they be free around the base?
16:42 Blekpug Where is a mod to adjust how much light is needed to grow them? https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/725
16:43 Out`Of`Control biom_lib
16:44 Out`Of`Control biome_lib*
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16:54 paramat you need a meselamp or anything of light level 14 (torches are 13) directly beside the sapling
16:55 paramat horizontally level with, and not diagonally-beside
16:56 paramat btw all mapgen other than mgv6 have lava caves starting at y = -256
16:57 paramat to change the required light add a mod that redefines the 'can grow' function
16:57 Blekpug paramat: Would surrounding it with torches suffice?
16:57 paramat nope
16:58 kaadmy light's the same all around the torch
16:58 paramat the light doesn't add up
16:58 Blekpug Good to learn.
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16:58 Blekpug Useful information.
16:58 kaadmy and the sapling node has to be [x] light, so torches anywhere around it should work
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17:00 Blekpug The saplink sticks if planted in stone. Can it grow there?  I have a pine sapling surrounded by super glow glass. (know I know it is same as 1 super glow glass. It has been there for a fairly long while.
17:00 Fedmahn_Kassad Does anyine help with a bug
17:01 paramat no needs dirt or grass
17:01 Fedmahn_Kassad Access violation (Exception 0xC0000005) at 0x69308310
17:01 Blekpug super glow glass is supposed to be brighter than a torch, so should be at least 14.
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17:09 Blekpug I have biome_lib installed. Perhaps that prevents the tree from growing.
17:10 Blekpug default of light_max for biome_lib is engine value of 14
17:11 everamzah Fedmahn_Kassad: did u already try a restart?
17:11 everamzah sounds strange, but i have a machine that if it resumes from hibernate, will segfault trying to load minetest, and i have to reboot
17:12 kaadmy everamzah: i have a similar problem; anything using opengl segfaults after my machinecrashes sometimes
17:13 Fedmahn_Kassad of cours
17:13 Fedmahn_Kassad i have it a few times
17:13 kaadmy Blekpug: treeswon't grow on stone afaik
17:16 Blekpug super glow glass: light_source = 15
17:17 Blekpug Planted on transported earth, now.
17:17 Blekpug will observe
17:24 Blekpug Tree on earth grew. Those on stone did not.
17:24 kaadmy that's what i thought.
17:24 Blekpug I have biome_lib. I don't know what it changes.
17:27 Fedmahn_Kassad Where i can get an old version of client
17:28 kaadmy which version?
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17:29 Fedmahn_Kassad 0.4.10
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17:31 kaadmy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/tree/0.4.10
17:31 kaadmy just the source version though
17:32 Fedmahn_Kassad thank u
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18:07 Blekpug My computer can not handle (something in) plant_life
18:10 Blekpug (it is jerky & slow)
18:18 kaadmy probably the amount of registered nodes is laggy
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18:18 Thomas-S hi
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18:47 Calinou http://ukupat.github.io/tabs-or-spaces/
18:48 kaadmy lol, ruby
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19:14 rom1504 2 spaces ftw
19:14 rom1504 "Analysed 357 repositories" though
19:15 rom1504 the total number of repo analysed must be like 0.1% of github
19:15 rom1504 ah "The Top Starred repositories in Github"
19:15 Calinou 3 spaces
19:15 Calinou to indent like a pro
19:15 Calinou Can you stand the OCD?
19:15 Calinou should be pretty representative of high-quality projects
19:16 Calinou since they're followed a lot
19:16 rom1504 yeah https://github.com/Rabrennie/anything.js/ has lot of stars, it's so very much representative
19:17 Calinou minus the joke things, yeah
19:17 rom1504 but yeah it's probably representativ
19:17 rom1504 e
19:17 rom1504 what about indenting with 1 space and 1 tab though ?
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20:32 LinuxGuy2020 VanessaE: I was talking to you before about how you setup and administer your servers. I am just about to ditch NAS4Free and install debian on my server. But I was wondering if you have any experience with using Webmin to do all the configuring instead of manually editing files?
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21:26 Thomas-S bye
21:26 Hijiri bye
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22:53 LandMine Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!!
22:54 LandMine #join /random
22:55 LandMine Fk
22:56 alket merry christmas to you too
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23:29 Fixer whooo waaaants soooooooome!?
23:29 Fixer Europe looks snowless
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