IRC log for #minetest, 2015-11-23

Time	Nick	Message
00:02	who_wants_some	o_O
00:02	who_wants_some	O_o
00:03	who_wants_some	vision is better now
00:04	who_wants_some	ugh, every time i look at servers.mt.net I see Xanadu with <2hr uptime, why so unstable?
00:07	who_wants_some	LinuxGaming still has that max_lag problem, wth...
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00:38	MinetestBot	[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest: Mgfractal: Move julia set selection into formula parameter c24f3b0 http://git.io/vBUcd (2015-11-23T00:34:09Z)
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00:43	calimer	Great job with minetest, I've been having a lot of fun today with adventuretest :)
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01:22	LazyJ	Idk what is causing the crazy high max_lag. Another server on the server list has a lag of 1308. There are a few others with lag well over 100.
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01:37	afflatus	mapgen v6 is seriously starting to annoy me
01:37	afflatus	Is there any guidance as to which of the mapgen_* aliases actually get used?
01:38	afflatus	They don't seem to have any effect on trees
01:38	afflatus	If I remove default:tree I just get holes, regardless of what aliases I set. :-(
01:44	afflatus	I shall take it that nobody here either knows or cares
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01:54	hoodedice	afflatus, best people to ask are hmmmm or paramat
01:54	hoodedice	most people here are not well versed in mapgens
01:55	afflatus	Thanks hoodedice
01:57	afflatus	I'll go focus on some more rewarding problem ;-)
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02:28	paramat	afflatus https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/mapgen_v6.cpp#L86 plus junglegrass and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/treegen.cpp#L41 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/treegen.cpp#L659 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/treegen.cpp#L758
02:29	hoodedice	ohaiyo param =D
02:31	afflatus	Thanks paramat - what are you doing still awake?
02:31	afflatus	;-)
02:31	hoodedice	fixing bugs =)
02:31	paramat	oyasumi nasai
02:32	hoodedice	watashi wa amerikaijin desu
02:33	afflatus	kahrl: I want to /try/ to support all possible options.
02:33	afflatus	Someone eventually will create a map with trees enabled.
02:33	kahrl	afflatus: I see, so the trees are in an optional mod?
02:34	afflatus	No, mapgen has options in minetest.conf , unless I missed something.
02:35	kahrl	afflatus: but then your subgame has to define appropriate nodes for trees anyway. Am I missing something?
02:36	afflatus	OK, so I just need to figure why the aliases don't work where I set them - clearly they are used.
02:36	kahrl	ahh I completely misunderstood the problem :P
02:36	afflatus	kahrl: I'm not explaining well ue to tiredness.
02:37	kahrl	nah, I just reread your original question and got it now
02:37	afflatus	The nodes are set, just not in default, so I have set aliases of the form mapgen_
02:39	kahrl	maybe some other mod is redefining the aliases to something bad
02:47	afflatus	Even weirder, now I have leaves but no trunks. Better check the trunks definition.
02:47	afflatus	Getting somewhere, however :-)
02:48	afflatus	kahrl, I don't think so. I could grep everyting just in case.
02:49	* afflatus	slaps himself
02:51	afflatus	I made a pretty damn stupid wood-for-the-trees error
02:51	afflatus	Sorry everyone
02:55	paramat	good to see a solution
02:55	afflatus	Reading the source may help solve some other little issues
02:55	afflatus	My deserts seem to be lacking a top layer of sand
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03:01	paramat	highland mgv6 desert is bare stone
03:04	afflatus	Is that supposed to leave an ugly boundary with grassland?
03:04	afflatus	I seem to remember having to fix this in v7, which was relatively easy
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03:06	paramat	yes the dithered boundary with grass is normal for mgv6
03:06	paramat	it's ugly yes
03:06	afflatus	like this? http://imgur.com/w2isZX6
03:07	afflatus	Ignore the junglegrass
03:07	afflatus	I take it there is nothing I can do about that then?
03:08	paramat	yes is normal
03:08	paramat	you would need to alter mgv6 c++ code
03:08	afflatus	Oh good :\|
03:08	paramat	biomes are hard coded in mgv6
03:08	afflatus	Right now #cantfix will do
03:09	paramat	but you can remove the dither by disabling 'biome blend' in flags
03:10	paramat	for a straight-edge of grass
03:10	afflatus	Then I get straight edges
03:10	afflatus	One of the things I like most is the biome blend
03:12	paramat	perhaps use the decorations API to place desert sand on exposed desert stone
03:13	afflatus	That's an idea.
03:14	afflatus	Right now I just want to do some minimal adjustments so that v6 is usable.
03:15	afflatus	Having just spent a month getting v5/v7 to look fairly spectacular, my patience with v6 is lacking ;-)
03:17	afflatus	Thanks for helping me unstick my brain on this paramat
03:20	afflatus	Also I now know for sure that it is unhandled CONTENT_IGNORE nodes that crash mapgen
03:22	MinetestBot	[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Default/mapgen: Retune cactus density due to low density fix abf0ca9 http://git.io/vBUPp (2015-11-23T03:19:11Z)
03:22	MinetestBot	[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Default/trees: Make 'can grow' public to enable over-riding 135d80e http://git.io/vBUPh (2015-11-23T03:19:00Z)
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06:52	sofar	hmmm, how can I convince mgv6 to have a different water level by default? setting only waterlevel = N in map_meta.txt just causes it to be overwritten :(
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07:13	Calinou	hahaha, I received an e-mail of some person offering to hire me
07:13	Calinou	"We have analyzed your open source contributions on Github and have concluded that your experience could be a good fit for the position of Full stack Developerâ€¦"
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07:24	sofar	get used to it
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07:27	fling	Where is PilzAdam?
07:27	fling	!seen PilzAdam
07:27	MinetestBot	fling: pilzadam was last seen at 2015-11-11 18:49:35 UTC on #minetest
07:28	sofar	left a bit ago
07:28	fling	What do you mean left?
07:28	sofar	signed off, nothing special
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10:17	JamesTait	Good morning all; happy Monday, and happy Fibonacci Day! ðŸ˜ƒ
10:18	Elench	Same to you, because 11/23?
10:21	Ingar	I have to admit, I work near Brussels, it's a weird morning
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15:33	E4xoi	:D
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16:21	Jookia	Are there any good digging strategies out there given how deep the world is?
16:21	est31	sneak elevator? that's the most efficient
16:22	Krock	yup, a 1x2 hole with steps on one shaft wall
16:22	Krock	travelnet's elevators are very helpful - of you're looking for a mod
16:22	Krock	s/of/if/
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16:22	Jookia	Okay, is there a mod to shorten the world height?
16:23	Obani	Jookia : or if there is /home or /spawn command, you can just do vertical digging and put some water source in the end. Then just /home or /spawn and it's good :p
16:23	Krock	Just stop digging at -1050m
16:23	Obani	Jookia, Yes, you can add map limits
16:23	Jookia	Krock: -1050m?
16:23	Krock	oh right, this has revently been added
16:24	Krock	Jookia, -1024m to reqach mese blocks, some blocks down to have space
16:24	Krock	god, the keyboard doesn't like me today
16:24	Jookia	Ah. Well that's good - I was worried I'd be 2 bytes down and not find anything
16:24	Krock	!c 2**16
16:24	MinetestBot	65536
16:25	Jookia	;)
16:25	Krock	you can't dig down to 65.5km
16:25	Krock	limit is somewhere near 31k
16:25	Jookia	Oh really? Interesting
16:25	Krock	but as Obani already said, you can limit that too
16:26	Jookia	Also, this may be a weird question - how hostile is the community towards copyleft mods?
16:26	Obani	Let me find it :p
16:26	Obani	Jookia, what does copyleft mean ?
16:26	Jookia	Obani: Umm, GPL licensed. Or CC-BY-SA
16:26	est31	Jookia, not very hostile I think
16:26	est31	as long as it is free by OSI definition
16:26	Obani	Well most people use WTFPL
16:26	Krock	WTFPL is quite spread ehre
16:26	Krock	nuuh, got ninja0d
16:27	Obani	But some use GPL3 GPL, CC-BY-SA,....
16:27	Jookia	Neato
16:27	Obani	After all you can do whatever you want, but the more restrictive a license will be for users/modders, the more it will annoy them :p
16:27	Krock	Jookia, check out this minetest.conf setting: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L1021
16:28	est31	note that that limit limits the other directions too
16:28	est31	better is something more bedrock-like
16:28	Jookia	Interesting- does the limit 'compress' it so mesecons is at the bottom?
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16:29	Krock	there are no mesecons at all
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16:30	Krock	the map just stops generating at this depth - like a knife
16:30	Krock	cuts away everything around
16:30	Obani	Weren't MT maps infinite at first ?
16:30	Krock	define infinite
16:31	Obani	"the only limit is the power of your computer, and your room to storage the map"
16:31	Krock	also the read and write speed
16:32	Krock	somewhen you will touch sqlite3's limits
16:32	Jookia	The system I play Minetest on can barely handle it as it is :P
16:32	Obani	Krock, speed isn't important if you can reach it :p
16:32	Krock	Obani, #satelites ..
16:33	Darcidride	sqlite3 ? convert your maps into postgresql/redis/mysql-mariadb, but sadly this map format isn't well supported by Minetest...
16:33	Krock	there's also leveldb
16:33	Jookia	I'm lucky to get 35fps on low on my setup :D
16:33	Krock	if you have infinite RAM and a stable computer, I'd suggest to run it on the dummmy backend
16:34	Krock	Jookia, limited FPS to 30 here.. with this I notice the lag spikes less
16:34	Darcidride	the default backend for minetest should be mysql or mariadb :'(
16:34	Obani	Jookia, you can also use this mod https://github.com/MinetestForFun/server-minetestforfun/tree/master/mods/worldedge
16:34	Jookia	Krock: Interesting, maybe I should try that. What system are you on?
16:34	Krock	Darcidride, devs would be glad about your code to implement them
16:35	Obani	It teleports you to the opposite of the map when you reach its end
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16:35	Jookia	Obani: Interesting!
16:35	Krock	Jookia, Athlon 4000+ 2.4 GHz (currently at 804 MHz) with a Radion X300
16:35	Krock	s/i/o/
16:35	Darcidride	ahah, i code alreayd enough to improve Minetest... https://github.com/MinetestForFun
16:36	Krock	Minetest ain't fun
16:36	Jookia	Krock: Whoa, what brings you to that setup?
16:36	Obani	Darcidride, don't forget ElectronLibre
16:36	Obani	:p
16:36	Krock	Jookia, an old mainbord, perhaps?
16:36	Darcidride	All of the MFF team are great devs, anyway the goal if to improve Minetest
16:37	Darcidride	is to*
16:37	Jookia	Krock: a 2005 card though?
16:38	Krock	Jookia, could be.. just a regular desktop PC I got some years ago
16:38	Jookia	I see
16:38	Obani	Krock, Minetest ain't fun ? so what are you ? a depressive man ? quit this channle lol :p
16:38	Krock	Obani, sarcasm, you know?
16:38	Obani	channel* my keyboard doesn't love me too :'(
16:38	Jookia	I have two machines - one with no 3D graphics, one with integrated laptop graphics from 2009
16:38	Obani	Krock, well that was some too :p
16:38	Krock	Don't take everything serious ;)
16:39	Krock	Jookia, overclock it, then cool, using liquid nitrogen
16:39	Obani	everything is serious !
16:39	Everything	I'm serious !
16:39	Krock	I'm eating Everything.
16:40	Everything	gargllglglg
16:40	* Everything	dies
16:40	Krock	Okay, perhaps not Everything, but much food
16:40	* Everything	revives
16:40	Krock	That was a quick boot, Everything!
16:40	Jookia	Krock: Hah, I've replaced the thermal paste already. Not sure I could get more performance out of a hacked thinkpad t400. Though I'd be really interested if my main machine (no 3D graphics) will be able to run Minetest one day. Perhaps the drivers will be usable for gaming by 2020
16:40	* Everything	is Everything
16:41	Krock	0 = 0
16:41	Everything	true
16:41	Krock	Jookia, had to do the same here - CPU and north bridge kept overheating
16:41	Obani	stop trolling
16:41	Obani	I'm serious
16:41	Jookia	what
16:41	Obani	that was trolling
16:42	Krock	Obani, african children organisations need donations - give them your free time
16:42	Obani	Do they have a mumble server ?
16:43	Krock	No idea
16:43	Obani	Well so that's a no
16:45	Krock	!c 'Answer of everything is ' + str(2 * 6 * 7 / 2)
16:45	MinetestBot	'Answer of everything is 42.0'
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16:48	Krock	checks http://isitweekendyet.com/
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16:53	Servuc	Hello
16:53	Krock	Hello
16:54	Servuc	I've a little question, multi-world (or multi-universe) is ready ?
16:54	Obani	I don't think so :/
16:54	Servuc	Or it's possible to create it with LUA ?
16:54	Krock	https://github.com/mniip/LUA
16:54	Krock	It's Lua. Lua. Lua.
16:55	Servuc	And what's more with this ?
16:55	Krock	There are some map generation mods, based on Minetest's Lua API that can generate moon terrain
16:55	Jookia	Is there a progress report on muilti-world stuff?
16:56	sfan5	multiple worlds on one server are not supported
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16:57	sfan5	and you can't do that using Lua
16:57	Servuc	Thank you sdan4
16:57	Servuc	Thank you sfan5 *
16:57	Jookia	Are there plans for this?
16:58	Servuc	Multi-world like in Minecraft for our future server
16:58	Obani	Servuc, but you can still use tweaks, like generating worlds at heights like -29000 :p (nether does it)
16:58	sfan5	plans? not really
16:59	Obani	Actually the work is mostly on typos #troll
16:59	Servuc	@Obani : Yes it's a solution
16:59	Servuc	Else can i disconnect player from one server to reconnect him to another programmaticaly ?
16:59	Servuc	(Or instance of server)
17:00	Obani	no, you can just disconnect
17:00	Obani	You can't redirect a client to another server
17:00	Servuc	AÃ¯e AÃ¯e ^^
17:01	Obani	Servuc, that seems logical to me
17:01	Obani	It would need to disconnect the client from the server
17:01	Obani	And if the client could be manipulated without being on a server,...
17:02	Servuc	It seem like realms :)
17:02	Jookia	It'd be interesting to have something like that so you can divide sections between servers
17:04	Servuc	And map limit cannot be override ?
17:05	Servuc	A fake multi-world on map extremity
17:05	sfan5	is -30000 to 30000 not big enough?
17:05	sofar	it's only 16 bit argh
17:05	Servuc	I just imagine ;)
17:06	sofar	should have done 21-bits x3 packed in 64 bit
17:06	sfan5	!c 2**21
17:06	MinetestBot	2097152
17:06	sfan5	!c 21*
17:06	MinetestBot	SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
17:06	sfan5	!c 21*3
17:06	MinetestBot	63
17:06	sofar	that would have allowed +/-524288 in every direction
17:07	sofar	plus an extra bit!
17:07	sofar	!c 2^21
17:07	MinetestBot	23
17:07	sofar	lel
17:07	sofar	!c power(2, 21)
17:07	MinetestBot	NameError: name 'power' is not defined
17:07	sofar	meh
17:07	Servuc	^^
17:08	Jookia	Surely -30000 to 30000 is big enough
17:09	sofar	one of my personal worlds is already 10km^2 in minecraft
17:09	sofar	that's not even a serious attempt
17:09	sofar	so I can see people complaining about 30km limits
17:09	sofar	but but
17:09	sofar	multi-world support would really make it enough
17:10	sofar	but but
17:10	sofar	that's not supported :(
17:10	Servuc	It's just an idea ;)
17:10	Jookia	Increasing the world limit would be how tricky
17:11	sofar	can't, it would be a protocol version change
17:11	sfan5	sofar: what do you think what ** does
17:11	Jookia	What other problems would there be
17:11	Jookia	Aside from protocol changes
17:12	sfan5	Jookia: you need to touch looooots of code (read: the majority of code)
17:12	Jookia	Yikes
17:12	sofar	sfan5: I had not seen ** as an operator before, shrug
17:13	Obani	Servuc, you can still make a mod that limits the world edge with some teleports or walls, so you can use other parts of the world for other "dimensions"
17:13	Servuc	Nevertheless, this game is very very incredible, minecraft suck near minetest ;)
17:13	sfan5	sofar: it's python
17:13	Jookia	Obani: It wouldn't be 'enough'
17:13	sofar	sfan5: foul language ;^)
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17:13	sfan5	sofar: ^ is not universally pow too, in C-like languages ^ is XOR
17:13	Servuc	Obani : My brother and me have imagine this possiblility
17:14	sofar	C has no power() operator
17:14	sofar	although you can <<
17:14	sofar	2<<21 lol
17:14	Obani	Servuc, I don't agree with you : Minecraft is still better than Minetest
17:15	Obani	Cause Minecraft is more thought as a game than as an engine
17:15	Jookia	Is Minetest the most popular voxel game alternative to Minetest?
17:15	Jookia	alternative to Minecraft*
17:15	Obani	Jookia, yes, but there is a lot
17:15	sofar	well minetest in itself is more like a SDK
17:15	Obani	If you have a good computer, try terasology
17:15	sofar	sadly, the default installation without mods is ... bleak ...
17:15	Jookia	I don't have a good computer
17:15	Servuc	Obani : I'm opensource lover. So change JAR file, i hate it.
17:16	Servuc	Obani : Yes a very cool SDK :)
17:16	Jookia	sofar: True, but the engine seems to be a bit limited
17:16	Jookia	Servuc: Still, limitations mean clever hacks
17:16	Jookia	No idea why I spoke to two people
17:16	sofar	Jookia: on the contrary, the MT engine can do many things that are useful that MC can not do
17:16	Jookia	Shouldn't IRC while debugging firewalls at 4am
17:17	sofar	client-side mods are nonexistant because Minetest won't ever need them
17:17	Jookia	sofar: What about server switching mods then? For multiple worlds ;)
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17:17	Jookia	sofar: I feel like that'd be one somewhat useful feature
17:17	sofar	each server can have it's own mods
17:18	Servuc	Last question : Can I make colored light in Minetest ? Or a lamp near a colored glass is the solution ?
17:18	Jookia	Oh! That reminds me, I wish mod downloads were a bit more organized
17:18	Krock	Servuc, light is white. You can't change that yet.
17:18	TheWild	Servuc, not supported (yet?)
17:18	sofar	there's no colored glass, really, although I might add some to xpanes but it won't change the light color
17:19	Krock	Jookia, there was a mod database - currently offline
17:19	Servuc	I've made colored glass ;)
17:19	sofar	Jookia: yep, github exploration - but at least you're not downloading obtuse JAR files
17:19	Jookia	Krock: Oh, not that- I mean when downloading, it'd be nice to only allow freely licensed stuff rather than having to vet servers
17:19	sofar	Servuc: colored glass, where?
17:20	Servuc	Sofar : personnal mod ;)
17:20	TheWild	sofar, there is colored glass... but this is alpha-channel based (the same crap like in MC). "Subtractive" glass not supported (yet?)
17:20	sofar	Servuc: github it?
17:20	Krock	Jookia, it's kinda hard to tell if something's free or not
17:20	Servuc	Just PNG with Alpha and some dÃ©tail ;)
17:20	Servuc	@sofar, wait 2 3 hours, I add this on my Github.com/Servuc
17:20	Krock	pngcrush/optipng afterwards.
17:21	Jookia	Krock: Exactly, so it'd be nice if there was some kind of metadata passed along. I mean technically if someone sends me a CC-BY texture without attributing isn't that a license violation? :P
17:21	sofar	ah, I might add those blocks to my mcimport.py work
17:21	sofar	been looking for carpet, stained glass, stained clay and hardened clay blocks
17:22	Krock	Jookia, metadata.. in textures?
17:22	Jookia	Krock: With the downloads of them
17:22	TheWild	PNG can have some metadata AFAIK
17:23	Krock	but is it transferred with the up- and download?
17:23		luizrpgluiz joined #minetest
17:23	thePalindrome	PNG can have custom sections
17:25	* TheWild	ensures whether PNG do support metadata
17:26	TheWild	ok, there is metadata. And yes, this should be transferred by the server because it is contained in the .png file.
17:29	Jookia	Is there a way to use that clientside to display licensing details
17:30	thePalindrome	If you parsed the image yourself, yes
17:30	Jookia	But that would mean people would need to insert metadata in to their images
17:30	TheWild	aha, dig this specific file from the cache
17:33	Ingar	and a million pieces of software will crash in terror because they don't support PNG tags
17:33	Ingar	(jk, quite possible though)
17:35		luizrpgluiz left #minetest
17:35	thePalindrome	If the PNG section isn't understood, it'll skip it
17:35	thePalindrome	A custom PNG will not break any sane parser
17:36		DMackey joined #minetest
17:36	sofar	patch your local libpng to reject any image without proper licensing tags
17:36	sofar	lol
17:36	sofar	what kind of crusade against images do you intend to start?
17:37	thePalindrome	Me? none, I just jumped in the convo
17:37	sofar	I was addressing Jookia :^)
17:38	Jookia	Rather not violate too many licenses
17:38	thePalindrome	Ah, I see that line
17:38	thePalindrome	You'd be safe
17:38	sofar	that's only a problem if you redistribute
17:38	thePalindrome	Its like downloading a movie from youtube
17:38	thePalindrome	it's legal for you, but not the uploader
17:38	thePalindrome	unless the uploader says that the movie is copyright someone else
17:38	sofar	if you make a mod, you better ask everyone where they got their textures
17:39	sofar	personally, I just made all my textures from scratch, which is easier and more fun anyway
17:39	Jookia	sofar: I feel like it shouldn't be so hard to figure out if I have free content in my game install or not. I don't want to join servers that have things I can't share
17:40	sofar	Jookia: why would you share stuff that your client has cached?
17:40		Wuzzy joined #minetest
17:40	sofar	that doesn't make sense. Just run /mods on the server and go to the source of their mods
17:40	Jookia	sofar: Copying game to family members
17:40	Jookia	sofar: To avoid big downloads
17:40	sofar	so you're distributing to your kids?
17:40	thePalindrome	don't forget fair use (if you are in the US)
17:40	sofar	OMG THE CRIME RING YOU HAVE CREATED!!!!!
17:40	Jookia	uhh
17:40	sofar	(sorry for caps)
17:41	Jookia	ok then]
17:41	sofar	I ... honestly think you're paranoid a bit. Listen, it's good to be cautious
17:41	Jookia	If you're not going to take my concerns seriously I don't really want to have this conversation
17:41	sofar	but if your cousin could download it himself legally, you're not going to get served by "seeding his cache" (no pun intended)
17:42	sofar	financial gain? it's open source and free.
17:43	Jookia	Joining a server on Minetest, it's hard to tell if what you've downloaded is open source or free
17:43	sofar	Jookia: you are 100% correct about that
17:44	sofar	it's unclear and likely extremely hard to verify that it's redistributable
17:44	Jookia	There's no real way to play Minetest and guarantee it's still free or open source
17:44	thePalindrome	But you are not liable for it
17:44	Krock	It could be illegal meterial
17:44	Krock	Report it to the NSA
17:45	sofar	Jookia: even if it was possible to find out that info, it's perfectly OK for a server to have proprietary and copyrighted textures
17:46	Jookia	sofar: Yes it is, but not informing the people using the server of licensing stuff is bad
17:46	sofar	actually
17:46	Jookia	I'd like to not play on servers that have nonfree textures, and there's no real way to do that aside from hosting your own server
17:46		adarsh_tr joined #minetest
17:46	sofar	that's incorrect. it's not a legal requirement that you inform users connected to a server that stuff is copyrighted
17:46	Jookia	Uh
17:46	Jookia	Did I just miss something
17:47	sofar	you can't force people to have written copyright statements on everything
17:47	Jookia	I.. don't want to?
17:47	sofar	copyright is implied in most countries anyway
17:47	sofar	I think what you want is a "server pledge" type of thing
17:47	thePalindrome	@Jookia tl;dr don't worry, Fair Use has you covered in 99% of cases
17:47	thePalindrome	The 1% would get thrown out anyway
17:48	Jookia	sofar: That'd be interesting
17:48	Jookia	thePalindrome: Does fair use cover using it in my own work?
17:48	thePalindrome	In a few cases
17:48	thePalindrome	what's the work?
17:48	sofar	"I, admin of evil underground server realm, declare only to use freely (re)distributable assets on this server"
17:48	Ingar	Jookia: that's your problem, you made a derived work without checking the origin
17:48	Jookia	Ingar: No I didn't
17:49	sofar	Jookia: fair use does generally NOT cover "redistribution without modification" as part of another work
17:49	Ingar	Jookia: If you make a derived work of a texture downloaded from a random server, without copyright info
17:49	sofar	unless it's transformative, or a few other things ... complex legality
17:49	Jookia	I'd like to only play on servers that run free culture that I can remix, share and use the stuff I download from them
17:50	sofar	your best bet is to ask the server admins
17:50	Jookia	There's not really a way to do that :\ There's also not a way for distributors to inform me of licensing
17:50	Ingar	I rest my case
17:50	sofar	sure, they can tell you which mods they use
17:50	Jookia	sofar: There's no automated way of doing this?
17:50	sofar	server admin: here, have these textures, I can legally give them to you
17:51	sofar	game player: can I distribute them?
17:51	sofar	server admin: I'd have to check for each thing I gave you
17:52		STHGOM joined #minetest
17:52	Jookia	Shouldn't server admins know about licensing and deliver appropriate licensing notices?
17:52	sofar	not really possible. I mean, some things could be automated. But very little assets have properly uniformly standard embedded tags with licensing and copyright info
17:52	Ingar	Jookia: server admins usually don't care, they jsut want to run a game server
17:52	sofar	Jookia: absolutely. Which is why on my server I know what mods I run and what license they are
17:52	Jookia	Maybe it's something that could be worked on?
17:52	thePalindrome	There's no way to feasibly do that
17:52	Jookia	I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to query /mods and have a whitelist
17:53	sofar	the server admin should fix that, not minetest
17:53	thePalindrome	But what if a proprietary mod uses the same id as a free one?
17:53	sofar	yup
17:53	Jookia	sofar: Server admins have no way to indicate the copyright details as of the current version
17:53	sofar	or the mod is AGPL and the server owner has made changes to it
17:53	Jookia	Sounds like there's lots of licensing violations :\
17:54	sofar	not necessarily
17:54	Jookia	Am I actually able to comply with licenses - what could I do when someone joins my servers?
17:54	sofar	the vast majority of minetest mods is 100% legal to use on servers
17:54	Jookia	Do I have a way to list copyright holders, do attribution, list times of modification, etc
17:55	sofar	great questions
17:55	Jookia	That's generally CC-BY stuff
17:55	thePalindrome	Not for certain
17:55	sofar	each license may require you to do things differently
17:55	thePalindrome	times can be faked, anything can
17:55	sofar	however, because most of the mod content is _not_ shown interactively, you don't need to display licenses
17:55	Jookia	sofar: Does CC-BY make a definition of interactively?
17:56	sofar	CC-BY is different, IANAL but I do not believe that a minetest server requires attribution to be displayed
17:56	sofar	even minecraft contains CC_BY content
17:56	Ingar	baiscly, you want to be lazy, and have other people figure out copyright issues for you
17:56	sofar	do you see it in-game?
17:56	Calinou	yeah, it has Freesounds
17:56	Jookia	but surely one of the texture mods i have
17:56	Calinou	but they've been working on removing it
17:57	sofar	nope, you don't
17:57	Jookia	sofar: Probably in the credits somewhere
17:57	Calinou	(as of 1.4, only a few sounds remain from Freesound)
17:57	Jookia	sofar: But as a server owner I don't have a credits I can refer people to
17:57		LazyJ joined #minetest
17:57	sofar	Jookia: but they're distributed as part of minecraft
17:57	Calinou	Jookia, now you know why attribution is evil ;)
17:57	sofar	Jookia: mods are not part of the minetest binary or content
17:57	Ingar	didn't freesound have these weird license that are NOT CC-BY ?
17:57	Jookia	sofar: Yes but I'm still distributing them from my server
17:57	Jookia	sofar: What do I do
17:58	sofar	Jookia: correct
17:58	thePalindrome	Jookia: Don't worry
17:58	thePalindrome	You can't really be held liable
17:58	thePalindrome	if it's a public server, just list an "abuse" email
17:58	Jookia	sofar: Is there a way to give licensing information to people from a server? Or any kind of MOTD?
17:58	sofar	motd, yes, that exists
17:59	Jookia	Can I shove a whole bunch of attribution in a MOTD?
17:59	thePalindrome	Yeah, but it'll piss some people off
17:59	Jookia	thePalindrome: I don't care
17:59	sofar	server.conf
17:59	sofar	motd = ......
17:59	Calinou	we have MOTD and server description
18:00	Calinou	neither allow multiline messages to my knowledge
18:00	Jookia	Oh
18:00	sofar	you can just point it to a URL with license info
18:00	Jookia	Maybe Minetest could incorporate a big box in some update for these types of information - a credits perhaps?
18:00	Calinou	I'd like to have a server_contact property where admin can list an e-mail for contact
18:00	Calinou	QuakeWorld (mvdsv) does this
18:00	Jookia	Calinou: That could fit in a 'credits' section
18:02	Jookia	Maybe I should do a feature request on the forum for this?
18:02	Calinou	will never happen.
18:02	Calinou	Jookia, you do realize Minetest used to contain this sentence on the website?
18:02	Jookia	I don't know, I could probably post it sometime
18:02	sofar	you can push a formspec to every new player
18:02	sofar	and display any text you want
18:02	Jookia	sofar: Interesting! Maybe I'll use that
18:02	sofar	even with "OK, I Accept" buttongs
18:03	Calinou	"celeron55 hates OOP zealots, FOSS zealots, smalltack, perfectionism and noobs. Better not go there if you are one of them."
18:03	sofar	Calinou: easy enough to do in a mod
18:03		GunshipPenguin joined #minetest
18:04	Jookia	But I still might do a feature request if it doesn't work out well enough
18:04	Jookia	It'd be really nice to be able to fulfill these obligations
18:04	thePalindrome	You aren't obligated to do that
18:04	thePalindrome	If you got everything in good faith, you're good
18:04	Jookia	thePalindrome: I'm morally obligated
18:04	sofar	I've actually seen servers already do it for user behavior stuff (e.g. don't destroy other peoples stuff)
18:05	Jookia	It'd still be nice if mods could include a copyright file, similiar to Debian packages
18:06	sofar	they already do
18:06	Jookia	sofar: They have a file that lists each file's copyright status and license?
18:07	Jookia	sofar: And it's machine readable?
18:07	sofar	sure they do. I've used dozens of mods and they all carefully list licensing info
18:07	sofar	nope, none machine readable. don't care about that. almost impossible to have it that way anyway.
18:07	Jookia	sofar: It's not really that impossible though - Debian does it
18:07	sofar	trust me I deal with that stuff at work on a daily basis
18:07	Jookia	It's kind of a solved problem when it comes to packaging
18:07	sofar	someone, at debian, writes it down
18:08	Jookia	Yeah
18:08	Jookia	Not machine generated
18:08	Jookia	Machine readable
18:08	sofar	that part, the writing down part, is the manual verification step needed to make sure it's open source
18:08	sofar	everyone needs to do that
18:08	Jookia	Yep, but it makes it easier to verify
18:08	sofar	you can't just blindly trust license information to be correct, or complete
18:08	sofar	nope, doesn't. it's only a trap if you do
18:09	Jookia	sofar: You're saying having a list of files + which licenses they're under supplied by the author doesn't make it easier to verify?
18:09	Calinou	Jookia, we currently don't have extended mod metadata
18:09		STHGOM joined #minetest
18:09	Calinou	I would like to have some kind, it could be JSON or something like that
18:09	sofar	"ooh look shiny new mod with gpl Lua code, downloads" -> contained copied PNG from Microsmack.com
18:09	Calinou	mod.json :)
18:09	Calinou	name, description, dependencies, license(s), version
18:09	Jookia	sofar: ..Yes?
18:09	thePalindrome	What if you lied in the mod.json?
18:09	Jookia	Calinou: Per-file licenses I hope. :)
18:09	Calinou	also, very few modders add licensing headers to their mods
18:09	Calinou	(I do)
18:10	Jookia	thePalindrome: They're meant to be verified
18:10	Jookia	Trust, but verify
18:10	Jookia	Having the information somewhat sorted makes it a lot easier
18:10	thePalindrome	But... then why machine generate it?
18:10	Jookia	thePalindrome: I said it wasn't machine generated
18:10	thePalindrome	If you can't trust the info without verification, why not just put it together yourself?
18:10	Jookia	thePalindrome: (05:08:07) Jookia: Not machine generated
18:11	sofar	you can't trust it
18:11	sofar	a lawyer is going to have a field day with you if you trust auto-generated license information
18:11	Jookia	Why is nobody reading what I write :(
18:11	thePalindrome	Because you aren't reading what we write
18:11	Jookia	Yes I am, You think I said machine generated
18:12	thePalindrome	er, no
18:12	Jookia	Okay, maybe this is a miscommunication then
18:12	thePalindrome	That's my guess
18:12	Jookia	I think it'd be better than nothing to have a machine-readable text file listing licenses for files included in mods
18:12	Jookia	You can trust it if you want, or verify it
18:13	thePalindrome	but why have it machine-readable when a person has to verify it anyway?
18:13	sofar	most common and widely used mods do a fine job listing licensing info
18:13	sofar	if you see one that stinks, complain
18:13	Jookia	They don't have to- the reason it's machine-readable is because it's easier to read and understand
18:13	thePalindrome	My main argument sums up as: If a person needs to check it anyway, why even try to automate?
18:14	Jookia	thePalindrome: Because it'll get you 90% of the way there. It's easy to have consistent formatting or parseable formatting compared to tons of different styles
18:14	Jookia	thePalindrome: It also means you could send it with downloaded files
18:14		Supertanker2 joined #minetest
18:15	thePalindrome	Well, most (afaik) bits of FLOSS software have a license.txt that lists everything you need
18:16	Jookia	the license.txt files are just copy pasted license texts, they don't list each file and specifics (like which GPL version)
18:16	thePalindrome	Yeah, they do
18:16	Jookia	Oh? Can you give me an example?
18:16		STHGOM joined #minetest
18:16	sofar	https://github.com/sofar/crops/blob/master/LICENSE
18:17	thePalindrome	Minetest's license does
18:17	thePalindrome	at least for the GPL, you HAVE to include the FULL text of the GPL in it
18:17	thePalindrome	At the top is the version
18:17	Jookia	No
18:17	Jookia	The GPL version needs to be specified in the program too
18:17	Jookia	sofar: Nice!
18:17	sofar	actually you're not required to include a copy of the full GPL
18:18	sofar	there is no such requirement
18:18	thePalindrome	Oh yeah, but you still have to declare which version
18:18	sofar	the text reads "you SHOULD have received a copy ...."
18:18	thePalindrome	I remember, there is the option to request the full text from the fsf
18:18	Jookia	sofar: Yes you must
18:18	sofar	correct, you have to (1) assert copyright and (2) declare a license
18:18	Jookia	Section 4 of the GPL3 at least requires that you do
18:18	sofar	Jookia: nope, not required. the GPL is valid even if you forget it
18:19	Jookia	Are you thinking of a GPL2 thing? I haven't read it as much
18:19	sofar	if you forget, then it's Copyrighted but not GPL'd and nobody can distribute it
18:19	sofar	so effectively, you can forget it just fine
18:19	sofar	nobody is going to care
18:19	Jookia	Uhh
18:19	Jookia	Nobody cares about proprietary software?
18:20	sofar	not what I said
18:20	thePalindrome	^
18:20	Jookia	Nobody cares that they can't distribute it?
18:20	* twoelk	follows sofar's link and saddly sees no new crops
18:20	Jookia	What did you say
18:20	sofar	twoelk: I might add pumpkins soon
18:20	twoelk	yummy
18:21	sofar	nobody cares that you forgot to add COPYING if the license header clearly states GPL
18:21	Jookia	I do
18:21	sofar	that's because you don't understand
18:21	Jookia	I don't understand what?
18:21	sofar	hundreds of software packages are GPL and do not contain a COPYING file
18:21	thePalindrome	How the GPL works
18:21	sofar	go look
18:22	Jookia	sofar: Uhh, what's your point though? That they're violating?
18:22	twoelk	Jokia, just out of interest, which minetest servers have you visited ?
18:22	thePalindrome	@Jookia we're saying that there are many ways to be GPL
18:22	Jookia	twoelk: Liberty Land and Xandu, though it was a while back (may spell wrong)
18:22	sofar	that the GPL is valid, and applies, even without a COPYING file in the source tree
18:22	Jookia	sofar: It just means they haven't sued you yet ;)
18:23	thePalindrome	No
18:23	thePalindrome	They can't sue
18:23	sofar	sue me for what?
18:23	Jookia	Copyright infringement for not including a copy of the license when redistributing
18:23	sofar	explain what merit sueing would do?
18:23	Jookia	You violated the license
18:23	sofar	how?
18:23	thePalindrome	The license doesn't require the full text
18:23	consfearacy	when I try to connect to a server it is stuck at loading "Media...", is this normal?
18:23	thePalindrome	GPL allows you to omit it
18:23	Jookia	The license requires you include a copy of the GPL along with the program
18:23	thePalindrome	Not it doesn't
18:23	Jookia	thePalindrome: not the GPL3
18:24	twoelk	https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8494
18:24	Jookia	Am I reading section 4 wrong?
18:24	twoelk	for example Xanadu https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8494 has a list with links to all mods
18:24	Jookia	Conveying Verbatim Copies
18:24	Jookia	twoelk: Oh yes I saw, it's great
18:24	Jookia	GPL2 section 1 as well says that's a requirement
18:24	twoelk	so what more do you need?
18:24	sofar	"and give all recipients a copy of this License along with the Program."
18:25	Calinou	<sofar> nobody cares that you forgot to add COPYING if the license header clearly states GPL
18:25	sofar	is that the line you are referring to?
18:25	Calinou	if all you say is "License: GPL", it means nothing
18:25	Jookia	sofar: Yes- am I misunderstanding this?
18:25	Calinou	you should always include a copy of the license with something you distribute
18:25	sofar	yes I can see that being confusing
18:25	Calinou	if the license is too long, then choose a simpler license
18:25	Calinou	(MIT is 1.1 KB. is this too much?)
18:25	thePalindrome	Basically, that's the "viral" clause
18:25	sofar	they're not referring to the full GPL text there
18:25	thePalindrome	Calinou: Jookia is working out how the GPL and MT mods combine
18:25	Jookia	sofar: Are you sure? Let me check the copyleft guide for elaboration
18:26	Calinou	Minetest is LGPLv2.1+ anyway :)
18:27	Jookia	Like I'm not too bothered by any of this, I just want a place to put my licenses on a server
18:27	sofar	in legal terms, a license is "the part that allows a user to do something with something". It can legally mean the same thing as "you may use my toilet permitted you adhere to the house rules" - and not define "house rules" more in detail
18:27	sofar	as long as it's clear that the house rules are stated somewhere unambiguously
18:28	Jookia	sofar: That makes sense as 'License' could mean the legal agreement, and they do refer to the license text as a different term
18:28	twoelk	Jookia: make your entry in the serverlist point to a informative url - as all server owners should
18:28	thePalindrome	^
18:28	Jookia	twoelk: I'd rather just put it on the server
18:28	Jookia	I don't have a website
18:29	twoelk	use the mods : welcome, serverinfo, news or wiki
18:29	* sofar	really should start doing some work today now.... :^)
18:29	Jookia	wiki? Pretty sure I'm banned from that
18:29	twoelk	no in game wiki-like mod
18:30	Calinou	Jookia, account creation on wiki is done manually
18:30	Calinou	(due to spam issues)
18:30	Jookia	twoelk: Ah
18:30	Jookia	Calinou: Oh, I meant in general - I've stopped checking if I can register for wikis given I'm a heavy Tor user
18:30	thePalindrome	brb, snagging lunch
18:30		STHGOM joined #minetest
18:31	twoelk	Jookia: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6492
18:31	Jookia	twoelk: Radical!
18:32		Obani joined #minetest
18:33	twoelk	or use news: https://github.com/Bremaweb/news
18:33	Jookia	Thanks so much for that :)
18:34	sofar	twoelk: would you care for pumpkins?
18:34		Obani joined #minetest
18:35	twoelk	just had a hokaido, was really tasty!
18:37	twoelk	oops, red kuri squash in english it seems
18:37		STHGOM joined #minetest
18:38	Calinou	http://godotengine.org/topics/12978 :)
18:41	twoelk	sofar, actually for my roman project I am just trying to find out what ancient farms may have looked like and how to display their crops in minetest
18:41	Jookia	Interesting!
18:43	sofar	twoelk: should be plenty references on that online. they are well-studied
18:43	twoelk	so I may be more interested in millet, oats, olive trees and wine
18:43	sofar	http://www.therthdimension.org/AncientRome/RomanFoodDrink/romanfooddrink.htm
18:43	sofar	lists pumpkins
18:43	twoelk	oh there is lots but really building it is a different story
18:44	Jookia	Calinou: will that run on my GMA graphics?
18:45		STHGOM joined #minetest
18:45	twoelk	I am pretty sure that list is wrong on pumpkins
18:45	twoelk	ahrgh - more ressearch
18:46	Calinou	Jookia, probably not
18:46	Calinou	you need OpenGL ES 2.0 support
18:46	Calinou	and a not-too-slow PC
18:46	Jookia	Calinou: :( I wish my Trisquel Live CD wasn't full
18:46	sofar	http://www.classicsunveiled.com/romel/html/romefood.html also lists pumpkins
18:46	Calinou	(for what it's worth, my late-2008 HP laptop can play it at 60 FPS)
18:46	Jookia	Calinou: What card's in it?
18:47	Calinou	GeForce GT 9600M
18:47	Calinou	on Windows
18:47	sofar	twoelk: euhh I think you may be correct
18:47	Jookia	What's it on Linux?
18:47	Calinou	haven't tried
18:47	Calinou	probably the same, if you use the proprietary driver
18:47	Jookia	Yuck
18:48	sofar	twoelk: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:uuyoBLOvbCMJ:www.3owls.org/sca/cook/roman.htm+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
18:48	sofar	apparently there were some "gourds" but no pumpkin
18:48	Calinou	http://mesamatrix.net/
18:49	Calinou	looks like free drivers support OpenGL ES 3?
18:49	Calinou	(ES, not plain OpenGL)
18:49	Calinou	ES 3.1 is not fully supported yet though
18:49	sofar	earlier GMA's only support 2?
18:49	thePalindrome	What about linux?
18:49	Calinou	sofar, very likely
18:49	Calinou	(if you're luckyâ€¦)
18:49	Calinou	GMA was crap
18:49	sofar	Jookia: what GMA generation?
18:49	Calinou	we're glad they stopped making it :)
18:50	sofar	I can try/test on a few different gens
18:50	thePalindrome	If you have an older card, you can't use nvidia-drivers
18:50	twoelk	eh? no complete translation of Apicius? Uhm I own one
18:50		TC01 joined #minetest
18:50	* twoelk	is puzzled
18:50	Jookia	Well the only machine I have that I'll use 3D graphics on is a 2009 T400 with a GMA card
18:50	thePalindrome	afaik you have to get nouveau
18:50	sofar	twoelk: lol you make me want to play on your server
18:50		Jousway joined #minetest
18:50	* thePalindrome	uses amd, which is much easier to use
18:50	sofar	t400, that's ich9/10 right?
18:51	twoelk	shall I start it for a tour?
18:51	* sofar	REALLY has to start doing some work
18:51	Jookia	sofar: ich9, yeah. It's a very specific model so I have it hacked
18:51	twoelk	hehe
18:51	thePalindrome	brb, actually eating
18:51	Calinou	<thePalindrome> If you have an older card, you can't use nvidia-drivers
18:52	Calinou	pre-Fermi cards still work, just not through the mainline driver
18:52	sofar	twoelk: maybe after work I shall pay a visit to it ;)
18:52	Calinou	you're limited to 341.xx
18:52	Calinou	which is the legacy branch
18:54	twoelk	sofar: give me a note on irc as I only start it unregular on the public list, ussually testing stuff on the Isarnho server slot
18:59	E4xoi	hihi
19:00	Jookia	o/
19:03	E4xoi	\o
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20:12	consfearacy	anyone play terraria?
20:13	rom1504	maybe
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20:17	consfearacy	how do you conect to it?
20:17		autumn80 joined #minetest
20:17	rom1504	maybe someone knows
20:18	autumn80	hi
20:18	autumn80	anyone oneline
20:19	autumn80	hello???????
20:19	autumn80	is anyone going to talk to me or what:(
20:20	Obani	I'm here, but afk :p
20:20	autumn80	oh ok
20:20	autumn80	buttt hi
20:21	autumn80	i wish my friends were on here
20:21	autumn80	:""(
20:21	thePalindrome	ping
20:22	autumn80	???????????????
20:22	consfearacy	so what is a minetest
20:22	autumn80	minetest is like minecraft but diffrint i think
20:22	autumn80	ya
20:23	autumn80	but ya
20:23	rom1504	a minetest is a test in a mine
20:23	autumn80	ummm
20:24	autumn80	minetest is minecraft but like a diffrint name
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20:25	autumn80	umm
20:25	rom1504	it's very diffrint yeah
20:25	rom1504	a lot of diffr and of int
20:25	Teckla	"Vanilla" Minetest also has many, many less features than "vanilla" Minecraft
20:26	autumn80	ill be back im going to be afk bye ill be back in like 2 mins
20:26	thePalindrome	minetest is a voxel-based sandbox game similar to infiniminer and minecraft, but built to be modded
20:26	autumn80	bye
20:28	autumn80	ok im back
20:28	autumn80	sorry i had to do something
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20:30	autumn80	ummm okk
20:30	Jookia	IRC isn't a very chatty place, autumn80
20:31	autumn80	ya i can tell
20:31	Jookia	It's a bit like public transport: Everybody sits around looking at their phones until someone expresses something someone disagrees with
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20:31	autumn80	ohhhhhhhhh
20:32	Jookia	If you want to make friends you should check out some game servers :)
20:32	autumn80	i have friends there just not on irc
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20:33	Jookia	Where do they hang about?
20:33	autumn80	umm what do you mean
20:34	autumn80	?
20:35	Jookia	Well, you could talk to them can't you?
20:35		GunshipPenguin joined #minetest
20:35	autumn80	they go one diffrint servers
20:35	Jookia	Ah
20:36	Jookia	Instant message them?
20:36	autumn80	???
20:36	thePalindrome	Er, I seem to have missed something
20:37	autumn80	im going to stop talking now
20:37	Jookia	Okay
20:38	autumn80	:/
20:39		alket joined #minetest
20:43	autumn80	ok this is boring
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20:43	autumn80	:(.
20:44	autumn80	:(
20:45	Obani	autumn80, if you don't have anything to ask or to tell, we have no reason to talk ^^
20:45	Obani	gtg
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22:07	zat	http://www.lua.org/wshop13/Burgueno.pdf
22:08	zat	Async Lua in Minetest would be lovely.
22:10	TheWild	yeah, just async(function() ... end) would be enough
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22:11	TheWild	why the hell Lua is so retarded. Array numbering from 1? And no binary data conversions functions (e.g. 4 chars to float)?
22:11	TheWild	even QBASIC had them
22:13	sfan5	lua is a scripting language
22:14	sfan5	like
22:14	TheWild	scripting, scripting...
22:14	sfan5	python can't convert bytes to float either
22:14	zat	I still say, a Javascript VM would be cool in Minetest, I onco dropped the idea and someone started comparing me to someone that wanted to make all web based.
22:14	sfan5	nor javascript
22:14	zat	s/onco/once*
22:14	sfan5	indexing from 1 is weird tho
22:14	TheWild	JavaScript got ArrayBuffers, not so long ago though
22:15	sfan5	are those part of the standard?
22:15	TheWild	Lua in future will have io.pack and io.unpack or something similar
22:15	sofar	in itself javascript could work fine, but the problem is libraries
22:15	TheWild	mmm... EcmaScript 5?
22:16	zat	http://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/6.0/#sec-arraybuffer-constructor
22:16	zat	there it is
22:16	zat	sofar: what libraries?
22:16	sofar	the problem isn't that there are no libraries... the problem is that there are too many ;^)
22:17	zat	v8 just like NodeJS
22:17	TheWild	there are sometimes binary data to read (e.g. SimCity 2000 maps) or write (dynamically generated B3D files), and I don't like to use integer/float hacks.
22:18	zat	I wonder how hard would it be to make a fork featuring a Javascript VM instead.
22:19	sfan5	hard
22:19	sfan5	not as hard was changing block position to >16-bit
22:19	sfan5	but still hard
22:23	TheWild	I had that weird feeling about block positions being 16-bit; -32768..32767, but to avoid map generator mess it was limited to -31000..31000. What is this? MC has 3 million. But take it real: who is building that far (even as far as 31000)?
22:25	zat	When you can build vehicles Robocraft style people will get far.
22:25	zat	certainly
22:25	twoelk	look at the redcrab server map
22:26	TheWild	hm... why not to loop the map? 32767 + 1 goes -32768
22:28	twoelk	use worldedge mod to warp the map into tiles
22:31	sofar	I've always found edge warping to be a kludge, and it doesn't solve the available server area problem
22:33	Jookia	We can dream of giant maps
22:34	Jookia	Maybe we should find a way to switch between servers when it comes to these things
22:35	TheWild	hmm... possibly seamlessly
22:35	TheWild	e.g. on the edges client connected to multiple servers
22:35	sofar	server switching through a portal-like system would work well
22:35	twoelk	Jookia: that would only work nicely between servers with the exactly same set of mods
22:36	sofar	just disconnect the client and send redirect information in a package
22:36	TheWild	or servers are "overlapping" on the map
22:36	thePalindrome	Honestly I'd expect a system like that to come from a mod
22:36	Jookia	twoelk: That'd be fine, just have servers run multiple instances
22:36	sofar	server switching needs client support
22:36	Jookia	Maybe we need to decouple the idea of servers versus hosts of world
22:37	twoelk	ah
22:37	Jookia	I'm sure chat could be synced across instances
22:37	sofar	one server per world model is fine, as long as clients understand "hey this server is telling me to connect to this server now"
22:37	sofar	client gets a loading screen... no big deal
22:37	twoelk	you want to switch between "realms" hosted on the same server
22:37	sofar	could even have different mods
22:37	Jookia	sofar: Yep. Always ask for permission.
22:37	Jookia	sofar: It'd be nice if some mods could be kept in cache but whatever
22:38	Jookia	realms/servers, who knows. Having different mods would allow for different types of 'planets' or places
22:38	sofar	well you'd expect user account info to be remembered both source and client side
22:38	Jookia	I'd just like to know how well it'd scale. Hundreds of them at the last
22:38	Jookia	least*
22:38	sofar	so splitting up the user auth stuff so that a user connection is shared seems logical
22:38	twoelk	hm, just replace the main menu with a nice picture of a portal?
22:38	Jookia	sofar: Could always just use tokens to refer authentications
22:40	twoelk	Jookia: btw this has been discussed several times over the years now and nobody has come up with some useful code to at least prove the concept
22:41	Jookia	of course
22:42	TheWild	what a big deal. Player is about to leave server A and go to B. Server A generates a big random number and pokes the B that a player is going to connect with the number. Server A gives the number to the client and redirects him to B. Client connects to B with a number. Server B matches the numbers. Auth OK.
22:42	thePalindrome	MitM
22:42	TheWild	is there a security hole I'm not seeing right now?
22:43	twoelk	I don't think that is the probleme
22:43	thePalindrome	Besides, what about sharing auth/inventory?
22:43	Jookia	Problem is effort
22:43	TheWild	so the server must be digitally-signed
22:43	thePalindrome	The servers have to trust each other
22:43	* zat	wonders how many times this discussion has taken place already...
22:44	thePalindrome	eeyup
22:44	zat	and always the same conclusion: Minetest is a framework for games and not a game.
22:44	twoelk	the probleme might rather be the decentralized chaotic organisation of totally free servers that are modded in many different ways
22:44	thePalindrome	That's what I'm more thinking
22:44	thePalindrome	Either way, I'm done for the day
22:45	thePalindrome	/)
22:45	Jookia	twoelk: Politics?
22:46	twoelk	nah just freedom in the anarchic sense
22:46	Jookia	I can't do much help aside from small modding I plan to do with a friend, since I'm a busy bee
22:46	Jookia	like porting NixOS to ARM
22:46	twoelk	hardly any two servers are alike enough to work together well
22:47	Jookia	just have it per-server owner so they own a bunch of realms themselves
22:47	Jookia	completely internal, get big maps
22:47	twoelk	do keep in mind that infinity is really big
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23:02	who_wants_some	Silence! (with alien voice)
23:04	TheWild	this time the pattern generated by people joining and leaving is too short to find a hidden message.
23:24	who_wants_some	minetest needs good default game, play ready
23:25	who_wants_some	minetest_game is good now, but needs some polish and additions
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