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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-05-28

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Time Nick Message
00:02 Enke joined #minetest
00:34 Orb yeah :/
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02:57 Sinkidonk can anyone help me with this pieces of code http://pastebin.com/c7JPieaj I can't get post_effect_color to work the input, I get no error and I don't know how to troubleshot, the problem, it look like post_effect_color is treating the input as not existent.
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03:14 Sokomine *sigh* it just creates all kinds of problems when trying to add something to the map that is determined by the surface structure of the map instead of the coordinates alone...
03:18 VanessaE you still fighting it out with that buildings mod?
03:18 VanessaE villages*
03:19 Sokomine in a way. i'm trying to place mineshafts. the existing mines mods do not have entries above the surface. they just exist..somewhere below the surface, where they may be found rarely by chance or by using noclip
03:20 VanessaE ah
03:20 Sokomine right now, i want to place the main tunnel at a random height, which is deterministic for each mine
03:21 Sokomine the trouble is...after i've placed the building for the entrance, the map is changed, and subsequent calls (i.e. from the mapchunk below the one with the entrance...) will get a diffrent result as to where the entrance is
03:23 Sokomine maybe i ought to just place everything in the very mapchunk that contains the height level of 0. i see no real way of handling it otherwise (except perhaps storing that information)
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03:42 VanessaE either that or enqueue the blocks where entrances should have gone, and playback the queue while also changing the surrounding blocks to e.g. rewrite what got screwed up?
03:42 hmmmmmm sokomine, this is due to caving in mapgen v6?
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03:44 Sokomine hmmmmmm: only partly. the caves require the mine (or any other structure placed) to be re-drawn in those chunks that where affected by caves from neighbours. but my problem is mostly that the landscape determines where the entrance is supposed to be - which in turn changes the very landscape (i.e. change terrain height)
03:45 ajaypay ! seen est31
03:45 ajaypay is that how u do it?
03:45 Sokomine what i'm going to try now is to create the mine regardless of the landscape using pseudorandom - and then just superimpose it on the landscape. i hope that will give me better results
03:46 hmmmmmm why aren't you doing landscape modifications first?
03:47 ajaypay good question
03:48 Sokomine right now, i'm looking where ground level is. at that place i start a tunnel downward and place a nice building above using place_schematic. next time parts of the chunk gets worked on, the landscape will already be the changed one
03:48 ajaypay vinessa ur on?
03:49 Sokomine that is, the mine will suddenly have another ground level...namely the roof of said tower
03:50 hmmmmmm ahhh i see what you're saying
03:50 Sokomine hmmmmmm: another problem i have is that place_schematic (called after all voxelmanip operations are done and written back) causes the mineshaft to have incorrect lighting
03:50 hmmmmmm :)
03:50 VanessaE ajaypay: it helps if you spell my name right... :P
03:50 ajaypay what server is this on?
03:51 hmmmmmm cool beans
03:51 hmmmmmm more lighting bugs
03:51 ajaypay oh sry
03:51 hmmmmmm sokomine:  so i'm understanding it like this:
03:51 Sokomine maybe that's why other mine mods never bothered to provide entrances
03:51 hmmmmmm you have the voxelmanip stage which does tunnel placement
03:51 hmmmmmm this changes the ground level
03:51 Sokomine that's right. the tunnelling happens using voxelmanip
03:51 Sokomine yes
03:51 hmmmmmm then you write back the voxelmanip changes
03:52 hmmmmmm then you do place_schematics
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03:52 ajaypay like this? vanessa
03:52 VanessaE um, yeah?
03:52 ajaypay *V
03:52 Sokomine well, in this particular case and current state, it's the place_schematic (called after all voxelmanip operations are finished and written back) that changes the ground level
03:52 hmmmmmm right
03:53 hmmmmmm so it shouldn't be a problem unless you're relying on overlapping chunks of data
03:53 hmmmmmm you're doing this in on_generated? or...
03:53 Sokomine on_generated, yes
03:53 ajaypay sokomine what server is this on
03:53 Sokomine i'm partly experimenting with what might actually work and look ok as a mine
03:53 hmmmmmm do you rely on the presense of overlapping mapblocks?
03:53 Sokomine ajaypay: currently only my singleplayer world, and there with bugs
03:54 Sokomine hmmmmmm: in the end, overlapping mapblocks cannot be avoided. caves eating through the floors of the tunnels is not so great
03:54 ajaypay like bug bugs or like mess  up the game bugs?
03:54 hmmmmmm yeah... that's hard to get around
03:55 Sokomine ajaypay: like mess up the game big scale bugs i'm afraid :-)
03:55 hmmmmmm one thing you can do is disable caves from within the mapgen
03:55 Sokomine hmm. that would be a pity. caves are nice
03:55 hmmmmmm and then register a vein ore of air to simulate mapgen v5 style caves
03:56 hmmmmmm you know what
03:56 ajaypay oh.once i had a bug that made the textures neon green and orange
03:56 hmmmmmm I have an idea of something that might solve the age-old cave problem, about expanding into two separate stages of generation
03:57 Sokomine i'd even love to connect those dungeons to the mine. seems you added a function recently that reports their positions
03:57 hmmmmmm one where caves are carved and one where the map is actually generated
03:57 hmmmmmm recently??
03:57 hmmmmmm are you talking about structure generation notify?
03:57 Sokomine *nod*
03:57 hmmmmmm that's not recent lol
03:57 Sokomine it just came to my awareness recently
03:57 ajaypay wow u guys are typin fast
03:57 hmmmmmm ahh
03:57 hmmmmmm yeah I was going to make an example mod for it
03:57 Sokomine that would be nice
03:57 hmmmmmm to add chests with some random goodies like gold bars and such to dungeons
03:58 Sokomine i thought about putting something in those caves. i'm just not sure what might be in there. i'm not a good dungeon equipment builder...and it bothers me that those structures, too, are not connected to anything else. hard to get in and out :-)
03:58 hmmmmmm i actually did do that, but i never finished it, just sorta forgot about it completely
03:58 Sokomine players will love that. but you'll run into exactly the same problem as the mines do: people rarely find them except when using noclip
03:59 hmmmmmm they are supposed to be rare
03:59 ajaypay u should turn that world into a server
04:00 Sokomine the rareness is ok. that's not the problem. it's just strange that they're connected to nothing. but maybe that's my problem...i tend to build my structures in mt as if they could work
04:00 Sokomine ajaypay: ah, no. there are many fine servers out there already. but i hope to release the mod eventually. until then, you might install my mg_villages mod and play with that
04:01 hmmmmmm aside from the concern of practicality, the rationale for dungeons not being connected is that they're old and buried
04:01 hmmmmmm sort of like the minecraft strongholds
04:01 hmmmmmm though minetest dungeons predated minecraft strongholds...
04:01 ajaypay i think i may have it already
04:02 Sokomine hm, yes. it's nice to find one by chance when mining. most never got found. and i always wonder what happened inside...
04:02 hmmmmmm sokomine, I realize this is totally hacky, but what do you think about having a mapgen flag to not allow caving into neighboring chunks
04:02 hmmmmmm I can easily do this
04:03 hmmmmmm the downside is either having 'walled off' caves, or caves that never intersect to make a cave system larger than one mapchunk
04:03 Sokomine hmmmmmm: hm, sometimes that might be helpful. i'm sure most people are not aware of how it works. yet...it's usually a specific region that doesn't want cavegen griefing...
04:03 hmmmmmm some mapgen flags are intended to be used by the modder, not the user
04:03 hmmmmmm i.e. MG_LIGHT
04:04 hmmmmmm this would be one of those flags
04:04 Sokomine most modders are not aware of that either. most work on other areas. though it's nice that there are some intresting mapgens out
04:04 hmmmmmm well
04:05 ajaypay so are u makin a mod?
04:05 hmmmmmm it's worth repeating: minetest is far too complicated for anybody but core developers who work with it all the time to understand everything
04:05 Sokomine and in the case of the mines it's not the mapgen's fault. that one just demands that everything that wants to...interact...with it has to produce the same output given the same mapchunk id
04:05 hmmmmmm maybe there's too many modding interfaces
04:05 hmmmmmm but i'm trying hard to make things fast
04:06 Sokomine that's fine, hmmmmmm. it's sometimes a problem talking to you. you're an expert and expect others to know as much as you do - which is rarely the case
04:06 Sokomine in general, a growing modding api is very fine
04:07 hmmmmmm huh?  like what
04:07 hmmmmmm people are smarter than they're usually given credit for
04:07 hmmmmmm if they don't understand something i'm saying i'd expect them to then stop and ask for more details on that
04:07 hmmmmmm but that's not the case mostly i suppose
04:08 Sokomine i'm very glad that you're talking to me and explaining
04:08 Sokomine ajaypay: yes, one that creates mineshafts with horizontal tunnels and vertical shafts as entrances
04:09 hmmmmmm alright
04:09 hmmmmmm so listen to my idea
04:09 hmmmmmm there would be two separate stages to map generation
04:09 Sokomine i don't have a good idea for those mods that change the world and thus are somehow incapable of creating the same mapchunk again if feed with the map as they changed it
04:09 hmmmmmm one is the cave carving stage and the other is the actual map generation stage
04:09 * ajaypay feels like hes in a tech/codeing class
04:09 hmmmmmm you have a chunk in the emerge queue
04:10 hmmmmmm it's already been through stage 1 generation?  cool, call stage 2 generation
04:10 hmmmmmm it's not existing at all?
04:10 hmmmmmm check each of the neighboring 8 chunks
04:10 ajaypay so u can create an set map?
04:11 hmmmmmm if any of them are not existing, perform stage 1 generation
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04:11 hmmmmmm ajaypay: ????
04:11 hmmmmmm now, this wouldn't just be for caves alone, but also dungeons
04:12 ajaypay like a map of a place.like lotr.
04:12 hmmmmmm those are two examples of discrete procedurally generated structures that span into neighboring blocks, and they don't depend on terrain
04:12 Sokomine hm. so you would first create the dungeons/caves - which might be pretty fast? - so that when a mapchunk gets its on_generated call, we can be sure that all caves have eaten their share through the map from all sides?
04:12 hmmmmmm ajaypay, map refers to the collection of nodes you play on
04:12 ajaypay so u could visit them
04:13 ajaypay oh
04:13 hmmmmmm Sokomine: yeah
04:13 hmmmmmm the reason why this works is because a lot of turds get added to the emerge queue CONSTANTLY, so it's totally okay to discard some
04:13 Sokomine ajaypay: this is more about generating the world. how high it ought to be at each place, if there's sand or dirt, where caves are (this in particular) and so on...basicly, the generation of the world you can play with
04:13 hmmmmmm if you discard a mapchunk because it needs prerequisite stage 1 generation of neighboring chunks, that's fine
04:14 ajaypay am i interupting ur conversation
04:14 hmmmmmm it'll just get re-added in the next server step when it realizes that the blocks haven't been sent to the remote peer yet
04:14 Sokomine that might be a very neat solution, hmmm. then there'd be no need to generate structures in the "shell" in order to undo cavegen griefing. lots of trees might also be very happy as their leaves won't be eaten anymore
04:15 hmmmmmm it remains to be seen how effective it is
04:15 hmmmmmm i can forsee performance problems, or maybe circular chunk dependencies
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04:16 AndroidKris Anyone know how the world anchor works?
04:16 Sokomine ajaypay: in a way. but that's ok. this channel is not reserved single discussions. minetest is certainly on topic
04:16 ajaypay no
04:16 AndroidKris Where should I place it to keep my stuff running? What kind of area coverage does it provide?
04:16 Sokomine what is a "world anchor"?
04:17 Sokomine ah, that. i don't know. didn't look into that. why do you need one?
04:17 AndroidKris It's a block from the technic mod pack
04:17 AndroidKris I have one /giveme is a wonderful command, since the world anchor block can't be crafted.lol
04:17 Sokomine AndroidKris: and are you aware what it does?
04:17 ajaypay sorry my kindel typest very slow :(
04:18 AndroidKris I know what it does, yes.
04:18 AndroidKris I'm just wondering what the range of it is, etc.
04:18 ajaypay what does it do?
04:19 Sokomine AndroidKris: well, then place it where you need it? i don't know its range. maybe that depends on the active block range of the server? it'll be at least 16x16x16 nodes or multitudes thereof i think
04:19 AndroidKris Why 16x16x16? Is that number special for some reason?
04:20 Sokomine AndroidKris: 16x16x16 is what a mapblock consists of. it's the smallest unit minetest handles internally when storing in the database
04:20 ajaypay the world ankor block?
04:20 Pilcrow hmmmmmm: This is coming from my limited understanding, but what if you made a seperate node -- like air or ignore -- called 'cave', then ran the cave generator first and it would generate structures out of this 'cave' node. Then you can make the mapgen only overwrite ignore, so the caves would be untouched. Finally, after the mapgen runs, convert the 'cave' nodes to air.
04:21 AndroidKris Aha, I see. I think I'm starting to piece together how this thing works now.
04:21 Sokomine AndroidKris: usually, the players on your servers act as "anchors". but if you need your machines to work while there's no player conveniently standing by, the anchors can help
04:22 ajaypay u have a server?
04:22 AndroidKris When I right click, there is a numeric input box in the menu. Wonder what the limits of that box are.
04:22 Sokomine ajaypay: there are many fine servers. do you have any particular preferences?
04:22 hmmmmmm Pilcrow: it already does that except it doesn't call it cave
04:22 hmmmmmm so what happens is this
04:23 hmmmmmm right now, we generate an entire chunk, but in order to get cave extending into other chunks, we include a shell of neighboring mapblocks that aren't being generated
04:24 hmmmmmm so the chunk gets generated, the caves get carved, and it just so happens that a cave pops through into the shell of neighboring mapblocks
04:24 hmmmmmm maybe those neighboring mapblocks haven't been generated yet
04:24 hmmmmmm in which case they're full of CONTENT_IGNORE
04:24 AndroidKris ajaypay, minetest loads a virtual server for you every time you play. If you so choose, you can make that server public, allowing other players to come to your world and play.
04:24 Pilcrow aha.
04:24 hmmmmmm carving caves into CONTENT_IGNORE places CONTENT_AIR
04:24 ajaypay trepca thats all.im looking for a server that has home decor on it
04:24 Sokomine hmmmmmm: it may indeed help a lot of mods. mostly those who aren't expecting caves after on_generated ran on the area. it doesn't solve my initial problem. i'm afraid i'll really have to rely on acting like a mapgen ought to in this regard
04:24 hmmmmmm when the map generator runs, it will only *set* nodes that are content_ignore
04:25 hmmmmmm thus not walling-off the portion of the cave that the last map generation run created
04:26 ajaypay are u makin a new mapgen?
04:26 hmmmmmm no, just explaining the details of why things are broken the way they are and why it's extremely difficult to fix
04:28 hmmmmmm "cavegen griefing" is a natural part of map generation, unless of course, a mod places things of its own inside of an on_generated callback
04:28 hmmmmmm most times this can be avoided by placing nodes that have is_ground_content set to false
04:28 hmmmmmm but there are still many mods that place stone, or rather form structures from the terrain
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04:28 Sokomine i thought about something else that might help...i'm not sure how difficult that would be to achieve: tell the mapgen in a stage before on_generated which height is desired for which part of the map. that is, a partial override for the hightmap
04:29 Pilcrow hmmmmmm: on_generated happens at mapgen time, before cavegen, right? it seems to me that on_generated should happen after mapgen and cavegen...
04:29 hmmmmmm nope
04:29 hmmmmmm cave generation is a part of mapgen
04:29 hmmmmmm but that'd be a really good way for structures to get gobbled up in the current chunk, even
04:29 Pilcrow oh.
04:29 ajaypay hey pillcrow
04:29 hmmmmmm not just neighboring chunks
04:30 hmmmmmm sokomine: terrain isn't generated using a heightmap
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04:30 Sokomine Pilcrow: some of cavegen griefing can be avoided by using nodes that have is_ground_content = false; but sometimes structures need nodes that may also be ground in other situations
04:30 * Pilcrow still doesn't know much about the server-side, including mapgen...
04:31 Sokomine ah, hmm said that alredy with stone etc.
04:32 Sokomine hmmmmmm: it'd be an override for height so that a mod gets a deterministic height at a certain point. kind of moving flattening code to the c++ side
04:33 hmmmmmm yeah but like i said, mapgens don't always generate things based on being a certain height at a certain point
04:33 * ajaypay leaves without a trace
04:33 hmmmmmm that's the way mapgen v6 works, but... that's just mapgen v6 only
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04:33 hmmmmmm everything else makes heavy use of 3d noise
04:34 hmmmmmm with 3d noise, the concept of height is totally out the window
04:34 Sokomine hm, yes. all those overhanging cliffs and such...
04:34 hmmmmmm not to mention what about all the 'wacky' mapgens that don't use perlin noise at all?
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04:35 hmmmmmm so wait, how does that flattening thing help anyway?
04:35 hmmmmmm what does it help with?
04:35 Sokomine i don't know. don't they all use noise of one kind or another? most are written by paramat anyway. or just change biomes. good biomes are very important
04:35 hmmmmmm there's Yappy
04:35 hmmmmmm I saw some screenshots of that one and it looks cool
04:35 Sokomine the height at a certain point would then be deterministic. but you're right...in some caes, ground is very debatable
04:36 Sokomine i havn't tried yappy yet
04:36 Pilcrow Sokomine: I'm not sure how viable this is, and would probably slow things down some, but could you possibly add lua-side cave generation to your mod? then the mod could turn off the cavegen flag, generate its own caves, and then generate mines and entrances where they need to go after the caves...
04:38 Sokomine Pilcrow: hmmm. possibly. but i'd rather not. the caves are fine as they are. and i'd have to turn off cavegen for only a few chunks, creating strange borders
04:39 Sokomine one way would be to duplicate some nodes...a not-eaten new stone...
04:39 Sokomine the mines are at least pretty straightforward in that regard and consist of relatively few nodes
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04:42 Sokomine for the villages, the problem is solved by beeing able to recreate them. this is partly achieved by storing data of created villages (especially the surface height) and by changing the height to that value no matter what mapgen came up with
04:43 Pilcrow couldn't you make the lua cavegen using some kind of noise based on the map seed, displaced by mapblock position?  I think then you could make caves that keep going past mapblocks. If my thinking is correct, it would also be possible to calculate the positions of caves that haven't been generated yet...
04:44 Sokomine Pilcrow: i don't think i could recreate a good cavegen. and it's already there...
04:45 Pilcrow Alright, that's perfectly understandable. I'm just throwing ideas around.
04:47 Sokomine Pilcrow: it's not a bad idea as such. all works perfectly fine as long as my structures are placed exactly the same way no matter what the mapgen throws at the mod - placement depending entirely of coordinates of the mapchunk and noise or pseudorandom or similar deterministic functions
04:54 Pilcrow Sokomine: regarding the use of duplicate nodes that don't get eaten, I'd do something like this: http://dpaste.com/2873JBR
04:55 Pilcrow ^ that way, if the node definition gets updated, your duplicate will update with it instead of being left behind
04:56 Sokomine Pilcrow: yes, that would be a possibility. except that that might create a high amound of copies of nodes. not all mods may be aware of ground_content
04:56 Pilcrow true. I'm not saying its a perfect method, either...  :P
04:58 Pilcrow oh and my little paste has the wrong drop code anyway. in fact, that line could probably just be gotten rid of.
05:01 Pilcrow hey, this isn't related to Sokomine's problem, but if anyone remembers, does is_ground_content default to true or to false if its not written into a node's definition? I think it was one way and then got changed to the other at some point, but I'm not sure which it is now...  :P
05:09 AndroidKris How can I make a Filter/Injector perform the same action four times then stop?
05:10 AndroidKris i.e, pull four stacks of coal dust out and send them down the tubes?
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05:12 AndroidKris I already have the trigger event established, a mese solar panel and a not gate. so at sundown, it pulls, but only one stack. I want it to pull four, then stop until the next sundown.
05:16 technomancy Pilcrow: documented a bit more about what's working so far in calandria
05:16 technomancy https://github.com/technomancy/calandri​a/blob/master/Readme.md#current-status
05:33 Pilcrow ah, cool technomancy. I wonder why digiterm is so slow...
05:35 technomancy Pilcrow: could speed it up by buffering lines and sending them concatenated periodically
05:36 technomancy the question is whether digilines is designed to be more real-time or if it's functioning as intended
05:37 technomancy the slowness could be considered a form of emulating old-school teletypes =)
05:38 technomancy for instance, vi was designed to work around the limitations of slow redisplays
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05:39 Pilcrow hmm, I think digilines only takes about 1sec to transmit its messages from one luacontroller to another, so if it's taking much longer than that there might be some kind of issue...
05:39 Pilcrow but I could also be wrong; it's been more than a year since I did anything with digilines...  :P
05:40 technomancy I guess the question is if you send three messages in a row, should they arrive all at the same time a second or two later, or should you expect a second between the messages?
05:41 technomancy this reaffirms my inclination to use a separate block for editors instead of having the editor process running on the server
05:47 Pilcrow it also leads me to believe the orb should really have its own terminal, rather than relying on digiterm at all... but that's another monumental task to add to the list. better to work on the os first...
05:48 technomancy no, I think it might be time to think about writing our own terminal, especially since digiterm is effectively dea
05:48 technomancy dead
05:48 technomancy especially given https://github.com/technomancy/calandria/issues/17
05:53 Pilcrow Yeah, maybe... Is digilines itself even worked on any more? Oh, another thing to consider: are you planning to keep cli compatibility for the long-run? I think the differences will become too great eventually, since we won't be able to take full advantage of functions such as minetest.serialize, etc...
05:54 technomancy I think a compatibility layer wouldn't be hard to create, but we can deal with that as it comes.
05:54 technomancy also I would love to be able to launch a minetest server and connect to it from the CLI externally
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05:55 technomancy https://github.com/technomancy/calandria/issues/19 for discussion of the editor node
05:55 air how do you right click on the tablet version?
05:58 AndroidKris air, probably press and hold
05:58 AndroidKris or double tap
05:58 air thanks
05:58 AndroidKris np
06:00 Pilcrow I think double-tapping used to do it, but that may have changed to press-and-hold recently. I haven't used the tablet version in a long time.
06:01 technomancy Pilcrow: have you worked with formspecs much?
06:03 Pilcrow technomancy: you do realize a node can be defined with more than one formspec, right? see my hoverbot's 'tabs'. I think you can even make a formspec hidden, which would work best for calandria since the editor could be hidden in an alternate tab of the terminal until it needs to be shown. https://github.com/Pilcrow182/hoverbot
06:03 technomancy oh interesting; yeah
06:03 Pilcrow well, not necessarily more than one formspec, but a formspec with more than one page.
06:04 technomancy digiterms already have two; one for the channel and one for the actual term
06:04 technomancy so yeah, that sounds like it'd be a great fit
06:04 technomancy wait, how did I miss this hoverbot? this looks cool. =)
06:05 Pilcrow yeah. then the editor could be defined similarly to the text input that signs_lib uses.
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06:06 Pilcrow technomancy: you probably missed it because its not technically 'released' yet (still in-progress) and is nowhere to be found in the forums.  ;)
06:08 technomancy digiterm is on the forums, and it's complete abandonware that's only ever had a single commit
06:08 technomancy so I don't take the forums very seriously =)
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06:12 Pilcrow Eh, perhaps. Most of my stuff is not on the forums *or* github, but that's because I'm lazy. And a perfectionist. Bad combination, lol.
06:14 technomancy I get that =)
06:15 technomancy IRC is the best place to discuss early-stages stuff
06:16 Pilcrow other than hoverbot, the only really useful mod on my github is my mechanism mod (the one I was talking about with Wayward_Tab yesterday about the buffered cobble I/O, lol).
06:19 Pilcrow technomancy: irc is also a good place to keep track of those early-stage conversations, since this channel is logged on http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest
06:27 Pilcrow oh, and if the hoverbot's not enough indication, yes I've worked with formspecs quite a bit, but they're still a nasty beast to tackle. the formspec API just needs a complete overhaul/replacement, to be honest. there has been discussion about that before. I think some people are lobbying to try and change it for 0.5?
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06:29 Pilcrow ah, yes, here's the formspec discussion: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1399
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06:38 Pilcrow ach, I have to go to bed. 1:37am is too late for me. technomancy, I'll talk to you tomorrow maybe, ok? bye all!  :)
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07:17 technomancy speaking of formspec redesigns, why the deuce are they not already done as tables?
07:17 technomancy very curious design decision
07:18 technomancy good grief, and *again* with sapier raising a bunch of ill-founded objections
07:18 technomancy why does he hate every attempt to make minetest better?
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07:38 RealBadAngel technomancy, ShadowNinja had some plans to make it use tables
07:38 RealBadAngel idk whats the progress with it
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07:39 technomancy RealBadAngel: yeah, I was reading through that pull request discussion. looks promising.
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07:41 technomancy RealBadAngel: do you think it should go deeper than just transitioning from strings->tables?
07:41 technomancy I mean, it sounds like there are problems with the existing semantics too
07:41 RealBadAngel deeper?
07:43 technomancy like going beyond just the data representation and changing what they are actually capable of
07:47 RealBadAngel i dont get what you mean
07:48 technomancy well it looks like this discussion is about coming up with a new way of describing the same underlying functionality
07:48 technomancy whereas some people think maybe the whole thing needs to be replaced
07:51 Zeno` joined #minetest
07:56 technomancy or at least augmented
08:02 Calinou joined #minetest
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08:24 CWz hey Zeno`
08:24 Haudegen joined #minetest
08:42 ABJ joined #minetest
08:43 ABJ Hi
08:43 ABJ Is OldCoder on? He asked me to meet here.
08:51 OldCoder Hi
08:51 OldCoder People are not patien
08:51 OldCoder People are not patient *
08:52 CWz Hello OldCoder
08:52 JamesTait joined #minetest
08:57 OldCoder CWz hi
09:02 Amaz joined #minetest
09:07 OldCoder Hi
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09:19 OldCoder CWz will you enable forum PM?
09:20 JamesTait Good morning all; happy Amnesty International Day! 😃
09:21 CWz hey oldcoder
09:22 OldCoder hi
09:22 OldCoder CWz will you enable forum PM?
09:23 CWz OldCoder: I've enabled it
09:23 OldCoder ty
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09:46 Tekken so in retrospect ... a 32 hour shift was a bad idea
09:47 Tekken I'm SO tired
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10:18 Megaf Hi
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11:05 Zeno` hi
11:06 Zeno` lol @ 32-hour shift
11:06 Zeno` Tekken, that's just stupid (sorry)
11:06 Zeno` You're a person, not a slave. Well, you are a slave, but don't give them 32 hour shifts.
11:07 Zeno` I can't even think where a 32-hour shift is legal
11:07 Zeno` you don't live in a country that lacks labor laws do you?
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11:15 Ep1cMaN joined #minetest
11:16 Ep1cMaN hi all, how could I make trees transparent and climbable?
11:17 CWz olda zeno
11:17 CWz is Zeno`  man still here
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11:25 Calinou Ep1cMaN, set walkable = false and climbable = true
11:25 Calinou to leaves
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11:32 Zeno` I am both here, and not here, CWz
11:33 Tekken Zeno`: texas
11:33 Zeno` Tekken, as I said I think you're crazy :(
11:33 Tekken so does everyone else I work with
11:34 Zeno` Tekken, what motivated you to try and kill yourself?
11:34 Tekken not having a car
11:34 Zeno` I'd rather have my health than a car :)
11:34 Tekken health lol
11:35 Zeno` I'm kind of surprised you were even allowed by your company to take a shift that long
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11:35 Zeno` After a certain period your productivity would have been approaching zero (no matter what you think)
11:35 Zeno` It was a waste of their money and your sanity
11:36 Zeno` Can I ask what kind of job?
11:36 Tekken networking
11:36 Zeno` what manner of networking? networking as in computer systems?
11:37 Tekken yea. security
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11:37 Zeno` no wonder my internet has been so slow the last couple of days :(
11:37 Tekken haha
11:38 Zeno` see you've gone and broken Australia's internet!
11:38 Zeno` this is terrible
11:38 Calinou it was laggy already, now you made it non-working :D
11:38 Zeno` :D
11:38 gv1222 joined #minetest
11:38 Tekken Zeno`: you're online. hush
11:38 Zeno` just
11:39 * Zeno` touches wood
11:39 Zeno` seriously though... 36 hours?!
11:39 Zeno` Did they give you that top-of-the-range BMW after you signed off the shift?
11:40 Zeno` HAHA! I just realised what you did!
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11:41 Tekken hmm? ;)
11:41 Zeno` you slept 24 of the 36 hours hidden behind the pile of stationary
11:41 Tekken don't tell my boss
11:41 Zeno` lol, good man/woman
11:42 Tekken I had sunglasses on
11:42 Tekken pro sleeping
11:42 Zeno` *nod* they can't see you if you wear sunglasses
11:43 Zeno` I do it in style as well: http://www.metronaps.com/
11:43 Tekken when they sneak up behind me I just have a window open acting like I'm working
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11:43 Zeno` I have my pod hidden in one of the network rooms that nobody ever visits. I once slept for a month (on the clock)
11:44 Tekken lies
11:44 Zeno` :(
11:44 Zeno` the energypod has a "privacy visor"
11:44 Zeno` kind of expensive sunglasses
11:45 Tekken a fat guy doesn't count as a privacy visor
11:45 Zeno` me?
11:45 Zeno` I'll have you know that I'm as slim as a hippo!
11:45 Tekken no. whoever stood in front of your pod
11:46 Zeno` she was pretty slim also
11:46 Tekken *he
11:46 Zeno` *gasp*
11:46 Zeno` I thought she looked a bit masculine
11:46 Tekken haha
11:46 Zeno` perhaps the beard should have given it away
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11:47 Zeno` oh god
11:47 Tekken 2 more hours and my shift is over
11:47 Zeno` I am having nightmares now and I'm not even asleep
11:48 Tekken don't fall in that crack. you wont get back out
11:48 Zeno` brb, getting some disinfectant
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12:05 Megaf oh dear, I have just made a 100x100x100 nodes stone cube in my spawn.
12:05 Megaf that's pretty bad
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12:14 someguy_irc is irc.inchra.net down?
12:14 red1 think so
12:14 someguy_irc Okay.
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12:16 someguy_irc CWz, did MTZ-Basic shutdown?
12:16 red1 http://irc.lc/inchra/minetest/ ?
12:16 Megaf that IRC network is down very often
12:16 CWz mtz is now hosted by a deezl
12:17 CWz inchra can reach at 176.9.29.178
12:17 someguy_irc MTD?
12:17 someguy_irc port?
12:17 CWz same
12:18 someguy_irc ah was is 4446?
12:18 CWz it's on at mtzeno.com
12:18 someguy_irc okay
12:18 twoelk http://www.inchra.net/ looks like some money is needed
12:19 someguy_irc CWz, I was in MTD* 5 mins ago.. suddently it shutdown so I got frightened a bit xP
12:20 CWz deezl has been running for a few days now
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12:40 Ep1cMaN Anyone know how to have a server that privs are required for lava and water?
12:45 hawthorne joined #minetest
12:46 hawthorne anyone know how to make minetestserver run at startup on debian?
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13:05 Tekken throw pigs at debian
13:06 * Megaf catches those pigs and eat them
13:06 Megaf ^ Tekken
13:06 Megaf bold
13:07 Megaf 02,15This is a testy test.
13:08 Jordach they come in fine, Megaf
13:12 Megaf Anyone else on Diaspora?
13:12 RealBadAngel joined #minetest
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13:13 Megaf < https://diasp.net/people/4bff​eff0410f0132ef9700259050922f
13:14 red1 no
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13:27 Zeno` is inchra.net down?
13:28 Amaz Zeno`, I think that the only problem is that the domain has expired. The website and server can be reached via 176.9.29.178
13:29 Zeno` hmm, ok. Thanks
13:30 Zeno` MTZ-Basic (Onez' Server) is going down tomorrow. Deezl will be taking it over
13:30 Zeno` unless I can't chat to him before then... if that happens I'll leave it up until I can
13:31 ajaypay joined #minetest
13:32 CWz Zeno`: deezl already has taken over
13:33 ajaypay who is he?
13:33 Enke joined #minetest
13:35 * ajaypay says hi
13:35 ajaypay hi
13:36 Zeno` CWz, it's on his server?
13:38 Zeno` He could have told me lol
13:38 Zeno` anyway ssh indicates that it is indeed on his server. good stuff
13:39 * Zeno` shuts his server down... goodbye old friend :(
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13:43 AndroidKris so, in unified inventory, where it shows the recipe for whatever item you have selected, (i.e. bronze ingot), sometimes it gives multiple recipe's to create the item. The bronze ingot has two recipe's for "mixing" items to create it. It also has a cooking recipe, a crafting recipe, and an alloying recipe...I know how to cook, craft, and create alloy's...but how does one "mix"?
13:44 RealBadAngel good question ;)
13:44 RealBadAngel i dont remember who added "mixing" there
13:45 RealBadAngel lemme check the code
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13:45 AndroidKris Thank you, cause right now I have an autocrafter whos inventory is filling up quickly.lol
13:46 RealBadAngel mixing is shapeless crafting just
13:46 AndroidKris I can't get it to work in my own crafting grid though.
13:46 RealBadAngel so the order you put ingreditiens on the crafting grid is not important
13:48 * Zeno` cries
13:48 Zeno` poor server. /me puts a stone on its grave
13:49 RealBadAngel the recipe works when you try to craft it in regular crafting grid?
13:49 RealBadAngel Zeno`, happens, just make new one :)
13:51 AndroidKris RealBadAngel, no, the recipe doesn't work anywhere. Unified Inventory confirms that it is a legitimate recipe though.
13:52 Zeno` RealBadAngel, I couldn't pay the hosting costs so I transferred the domain and let deezl download the database. I'm not really sad :)
13:52 Zeno` 20GB download and he downloaded it twice (I hope he doesn't have a quota lol)
13:52 RealBadAngel AndroidKris, please fill in an issue about it
13:53 RealBadAngel when i have some spare time i will try to solve it
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14:00 AndroidKris I'll do it. sorry for the disconnect.
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14:35 ElectronLibre Quick question, maybe already asked, is InchraNet down, and if it is, why?
14:37 SopaXT joined #minetest
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14:39 Calinou connect to osiris.inchra.net directly
14:39 Calinou or if you're on IPv6: 2a01:4f8:150:31a2::2
14:40 ElectronLibre Ok, thanks.
14:40 ElectronLibre I was browing my logs to find the IPv4 addresses of the servers. inchra.net is down too, so no server list.
14:40 Xenoth_ joined #minetest
14:41 est31 That about "use irc.inchra.net"...
14:41 ElectronLibre s/browsing/reading and finding
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14:41 ElectronLibre est31: Both are down.
14:44 sfan5 * Connecting to irc.inchra.net (176.9.29.178:6697)
14:45 sfan5 * Connecting to irc.inchra.net (67.241.151.78:6697)
14:45 sfan5 here's the two i recently connected to
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14:47 MinetestBot [git] TeTpaAka -> minetest/minetest: Add some missing getter functions to the lua API c0335f7 http://git.io/vkndm (2015-05-28T16:46:35+02:00)
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14:53 technomancy so is it true there's no way to update the contents of a form without erasing in-process input?
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15:04 Megaf $ rm map.sqlite (never go full retard)
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15:12 xenkey joined #minetest
15:12 xenkey hi
15:13 red1 hello
15:14 ElectronLibre Hello xenkey.
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15:28 Jordach ello Kenney
15:28 Kenney Hi there
15:28 fusion44 joined #minetest
15:28 xenkey ello fusion44
15:28 fusion44 hey xenkey
15:29 xenkey sup
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15:32 Kenney Alright, just negotiated a price with my pixel artist and agreed.
15:32 Kenney that will speed up development on Voxus
15:32 technomancy voxus?
15:32 xenkey ^
15:32 Kenney https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=50&amp;t=10895
15:32 Kenney this thingy
15:33 technomancy oh cool, vehicles?
15:33 technomancy I'm doing a spaceship subgame, and this is relevant to my interests
15:34 Kenney Yeah vehicles too
15:35 technomancy also I like seeing minetest subgames that position themselves as just another game using the minetest engine instead of the way many come across as just mods
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15:36 technomancy great job with the art so far
15:36 xenkey Hello camp fire! Will light up if something is cooking - especially fond of the particles and crackling sound (which you can't hear in the screenshot).
15:36 xenkey Made me laugh more than it should
15:37 ElectronLibre Kenney, there is something troubling with your first post about VoXus,
15:37 Kenney Yeah well the art will all go in the trash bin hah, it'll be replaced with better textures
15:37 Kenney Oh?
15:37 ElectronLibre "Hold up, it's still in heavy development."
15:38 ElectronLibre I don't know about you, but a WIP subgame implies that it's still in development, even heavy development,
15:38 ElectronLibre People downloading these subgames know what they are doing, what they risk. People might also want to see what's in the WIP section to see if they can contribute to it.
15:39 Kenney Oh right I see what you mean
15:39 Kenney my goal with Voxus is to offer a complete game, with enough content not to have to download dozens of mods to make it the least bit fun
15:39 Kenney so the first version, in my opinion, should be a fully playable version
15:40 ElectronLibre The first realease, yes.
15:40 ElectronLibre But this WIP we're talking about.
15:40 Kenney well yeah, even WIP release
15:41 ElectronLibre Then it won't be WIP, it will be a release.. I personally understand WIP as : "Well, I'm working on something, here is my project, here is my code (through download or git). People, have fun crashing/doing whatever it will do with this!"
15:41 technomancy it's hard when you have a very specific vision and you have people who want to contribute but don't fully understand the vision
15:42 Kenney Right, so that's why I want to hold off releasing a WIP, concept, early access version until the game reflects my vision
15:42 ElectronLibre That's what descriptions and to-do lists are about.
15:42 technomancy cohesion requires a difficult balance
15:42 ElectronLibre Also, don't accept contribution from anyone, explain why you won't merge it, or how to fix it and rework it in the concept.
15:42 rom1504 you can't always specify everything before coding
15:43 rom1504 (but yeah)
15:43 Tux[Qyou] joined #minetest
15:43 ElectronLibre You can controle what goes into YOUR code, you can't control what people want to add/remove/change into it.
15:44 Kenney Oh no I absolutely let people completely free in adding, changing or removing whatever they like
15:44 ElectronLibre Yes, in their version.
15:44 Kenney Yeah, and maybe the content gets altered in my version too
15:44 ElectronLibre But I meant in the code version you will then release (through contributions).
15:44 Kenney Not sure I follow to be honest
15:45 ElectronLibre My sentences are quite bad sorry. I will explain well :
15:46 ElectronLibre You have a release copy of your code, you can control the development of this version, contributions, but when someone downloads it, you can't control what they want to do with it, any change they want to do.
15:46 Kenney Here's my plan; Get the game to a state where it's basically playable and the vision of the game is clear (so a few items, few biomes, few monsters etc.), then start releasing updates and seeking help from the community to adding, changing or removing content.
15:46 Kenney True
15:46 ElectronLibre (Ok now is the moment I try to remember why we're talking about this)
15:46 ElectronLibre Oh, yes.
15:48 ElectronLibre So, if you release a pre-release, or just a view about what you've already done, you can easily do it, and maybe find help with contributors, while alerting users about the fact that it's WIP.
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15:49 Kenney Yep BUT that would clash with the vision I have for my company, I've recently released a piece of software to the public as a WIP-version too. But the software is useable, contains little to no bugs and has plenty of content
15:49 Kenney I wouldn't want to disappoint my customers by releasing something that is far from that state.
15:49 Kenney even though the game is free
15:51 Kenney also, publicity wise it's a good idea to hold off until it's something that people will be interested about. I could hold off from releasing and when releasing, have a fun and playable game which blogs and vloggers would write/make videos about. Or just release a game that isn't really playable and slowly release content and updates.
15:51 Kenney I think the first one makes a bigger impact
15:51 ElectronLibre So, fine, but I think you shouldn't post about it if 1) you don't look for people to help for the code/anything else 2) it's not finished yet and you won't post a preview. But anyway, do whatever you want.
15:51 Amaz Have you thought about hosting a server with it on, so players can get an idea of what it's going to be like, without actually releasing it?
15:52 sfan5 "give us a playable game or stfu" doesn't sound very welcoming, ElectronLibre
15:52 ElectronLibre Oh, calm down, it's a minetest subgame we're talking about, not MC2.0. People won't probably be as interested by the upcoming release.
15:52 Kenney It's not really in that state yet, there's nothing to craft, many blocks can't be mined yet - it's really nothing you'd even want to see beyond some screenshots
15:52 ElectronLibre sfan5: I don't ask for playable, I ask for something.
15:52 sfan5 ElectronLibre: well you have screenshots
15:52 sfan5 that's "something"
15:53 Kenney And well, I've always used this method to get people interested in my games. It works, that's why people release trailers, teasers, screenshots etc.
15:53 Megaf Calinou: Can you please tell me again the sarch term for static site generators on github?
15:53 ElectronLibre So, I don't ask for playable, I ask for WIP, which is the current state of the game.
15:53 sfan5 what i meant by playable in this case is something you can use in minetest
15:53 red1 kenney maybe you could make a video
15:53 Amaz Kenney, you've shown it works very well! I can't wait to play it!
15:54 ElectronLibre But even if it crashes at start up.
15:54 sfan5 lolwat
15:54 sfan5 ElectronLibre: what would be the purpose of a version that crashes at startup?
15:54 Kenney I could stop posting updates on development, but that wouldn't really do any good - would it?
15:54 Amaz No Kenney, please don't!
15:55 Kenney I won't, that wouldn't make any sense really
15:55 Amaz Phew :)
15:55 Kenney the current playable version has nothing else than you see in the screenshots, there's literally nothing else.
15:56 ElectronLibre I don't want to get frustrated because someone arrives and say "well, I've done something great, with good graphics and gameplay, I will keep improving it, but you won't see it until I finished."
15:56 Zeno` gain and pitch are tricky
15:56 sfan5 ElectronLibre: if you don't want to get frustrated don't look
15:56 Zeno` the problem is that other people need to hear the gain and pitch as well so it will (probably) require an update to the protocol
15:57 Zeno` if it wasn't for that it's very easy
15:57 ElectronLibre That's like advertising, playing with people's nerves to download the game once it's finished..
15:57 sfan5 sheesh
15:57 sfan5 ElectronLibre: nobody forces anyone to look at the thread
15:57 ElectronLibre s/once/when
15:57 Zeno` Kenney ^-- that was to you for FYI
15:57 Kenney Yeah haha, writing reply...
15:58 Zeno` perhaps we should add that to the next milestone
15:58 Kenney Hmm, well, actually, for me personally that wouldn't be necessary. The ambiance sounds I'd like to play (and use the gain for) are player specific, since someone might be in a cave and someone else in the meadows. They're personal sounds that nobody else hears
15:58 ElectronLibre sfan5: Which is why I will probably never use this game nor test it.
15:58 Kenney BUT yeah the pitch one needs to change for everyone
15:58 sfan5 ElectronLibre: ok, nice, but who cares?
15:58 Zeno` for a local user it's very easy
15:58 Kenney Could that be hacked in neatly? I know those two words clash haha but that would make awesome ambiances possible
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15:59 Zeno` I have a half finished patch here... maybe the way forward is for me to make a PR and worry about other players later
15:59 Zeno` oh it doesn't even need a "hack".. it's clean
15:59 Zeno` OpenAL supports both pitch and gain fully so it's not messy at all
16:00 Kenney Yeah I've checked that before requesting
16:00 Calinou Megaf, you want some generators? Jekyll (Ruby), Void (PHP), …
16:00 ElectronLibre At the beggining I went to the WIP section to see if I could help anyone, and I found this game. I had no sources, and no way to get in the code and improve it. So well, nobody cares, but I won't contribute nor use this. Now, I shut up. Have a good time developping this Kenney (that's not irony). :)
16:00 Calinou Jekyll is AFAIK the one used by GitHub for its GitHub Pages service
16:01 Calinou <Amaz> Have you thought about hosting a server with it on, so players can get an idea of what it's going to be like, without actually releasing it?
16:01 Calinou I hope you're not including WorldEdit if you do that :P
16:01 Kenney ElectronLibre: I totally understand your point, but it's just my way of interacting with users. The code is a total mess right now and that's just because I'm still figuring out the vision
16:01 sfan5 Calinou: >PHP
16:01 Calinou Kenney, also you have to understand that open source communities prefer open development, rather than development behind closed doors like Android
16:01 Zeno` err I just looked at my patch
16:01 Calinou most GNU/Linux distributions have a pretty open development process, and that's great
16:01 Calinou (even if there's sometimes too much bureaucracy)
16:01 Zeno` it would only be hacky if I tried to bypass the protocol bump
16:01 ElectronLibre That's your choice. Anyway, it will be great when finished.
16:02 Jordach ((like the MT Devs))
16:02 Zeno` but there is a protocol bump coming up anyway so I'll discuss it with the other devs
16:02 Kenney Understood Calinou, I will release an early version when there's something to show - at this moment, it's mostly just trying out code, textures etc.
16:02 Calinou also consider developing on a VCS, even in the early stages
16:02 Megaf Calinou: thanks
16:02 Calinou that helps everyone :P
16:03 Kenney I have no idea what a VCS is ;)
16:03 sfan5 !g VCS site:en.wikipedia.org
16:03 MinetestBot sfan5: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCS
16:03 Zeno` I have the original Star Wars on VCS tape
16:03 sfan5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_control
16:03 Amaz I think it's a Version Control System, like git
16:03 Zeno` err maybe that's VHS
16:03 ElectronLibre Oh, yes, that also,
16:03 ElectronLibre Git is great.
16:04 sfan5 Zeno`: yes thats VHS
16:04 Calinou what Amaz said, yes
16:04 ElectronLibre You will love this thing,
16:04 Calinou sometimes called SCM (Source Code Management)
16:04 Kenney Ah right version control, yeah I absolutely hate working with those but I'm aware that I need to switch to that at some point
16:04 Calinou Kenney, discover the power of Git branches and tags :)
16:04 ElectronLibre And one day, wake up, look at 'history', and see 80% of your commands are git.
16:04 Calinou if you use them right they're very helpful, even for one-man projects
16:04 Kenney I'm developing a game with a guy that works at Ubisoft in Canada and we're actually working on Google Drive :P so yeah that shows how much I hate anything VCS
16:05 Calinou it doesn't sound very professional to say that :P
16:05 Kenney true, just need to get used to that
16:05 sfan5 % cat .zsh_history | grep -a git | wc -l
16:05 sfan5 404
16:05 Kenney Professional game development is a lot less professional than you'd think
16:05 sfan5 git not found ;-)
16:05 Calinou Kenney, that's pretty true
16:06 Calinou to think that the Team Fortress 1. is still based loosely on Quake engine 2. started out as an amateur Quake mod
16:06 Calinou it didn't even have hats back then!
16:06 * Jordach gives Calinou a towering pillar of hats
16:06 Kenney Woah, no hats?
16:06 ElectronLibre sfan5, 1995 occurrences for 'git'.
16:06 ElectronLibre Ouch...
16:07 Kenney http://puu.sh/i3DfI/cc23a02de7.jpg
16:08 Jordach 4 minutes a frame under GPU accelerated rendering
16:08 Kenney this is the art style we're loosely going for right now (the tree bark)
16:08 Jordach time to spin up Amazon's GRID K520
16:08 sfan5 looks nice
16:08 Zeno` cya's later. The latest Demtel episodes are on TV!
16:08 Kenney Took a few things into consideration; 1 color palette, bright, fun, attractive, easy to edit/create new tiles, simple
16:09 Calinou Kenney, https://lut.im/YzETFIyV/xaTJRP25
16:09 Calinou that's MegaTF coop
16:09 Kenney Hah oh wow
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16:09 red1 wow nice graphics
16:10 Kenney g2g now, cya later guys
16:10 sfan5 Calinou: the texture look very high res /s
16:10 Calinou http://xpfree.org/epsilon/ if you're into cool graphics
16:10 Calinou sfan5, hey, Minetest is 16×16 everywhere
16:10 Calinou does that keep you from playing it?
16:10 sfan5 minetest is a different thing
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17:03 CWz in 400 years the government will be so corrupt they will force it's citizens to pay to breath  and at birth would be device in lungs to either choke or change air breathing frequency. from premium air to low quality air.
17:04 CWz ^bullcrap on  bun
17:04 ElectronLibre I saw a children movie with a story like this, where a corporation was making people pay for oxygen, and nature was destroyed.
17:05 CWz wow
17:05 CWz than 10 years after that . pay for parts of brain use
17:06 CWz aka brain tax
17:06 ElectronLibre Or another one in the same style, where people's money was time, and when you got 0 seconds of time, you died.
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17:06 CWz or pay per step
17:07 hoodedice Pay $99.99 (BEST OFFER) for 15 litres of pure oxygen
17:07 hoodedice Watch an Ad and get 50mL of Oxygen!
17:07 ElectronLibre And in real life, I've heard about a shop in China which soled cans of Oxygen.
17:07 ElectronLibre *sold
17:08 hoodedice in any case, never gonna not use adblock ever again
17:08 ElectronLibre Well, not exactly oxygen, but clean air. And the price was about 1$ when converted.
17:08 hoodedice went to xda, mem consumption over 1.5 GB for three tabs, system went into swap
17:08 VanessaE given how polluted it is there, I'm not surprised
17:08 ElectronLibre Neither I was.
17:08 hoodedice with adblock 5 tabs is 700MB, firefox
17:09 hoodedice xda's state is like android - bloated, full of tracking behaviours, and outdated resources everywhere
17:10 hoodedice <rant> android as a OS has failed, largely due to Google's intrusions and failures. It is definitely not a true GNU/Linux OS. You can't modify anything from the get go. I had to root my phone to make symlinks so that it won
17:11 hoodedice *it won't fill up the shitty partitions htc decided to keep by default, which allowed me to install at most 15 third party apps
17:12 VanessaE hoodedice: the rest of the world having tons of android phones disagrees with your "failed" premise.
17:12 hoodedice why can't I format the partitions myself? Why can't I obtain ROMs without having to go through "developer sign ups"? Why do I have to "root" my phone to use a simple sudo command?
17:12 hoodedice All of these are default on any GNU/Linux distro.
17:12 VanessaE wrong.
17:12 VanessaE er, sorta wrong.
17:13 VanessaE not being able to do stuff like formatting, partitioning, and so on without root is a function of the carrier who made the phone.
17:13 hoodedice yes, I might be wrong due to my half-assed understanding of Linux, and my simplistic language
17:13 VanessaE THEY locked it down, not Android.
17:13 hoodedice okay, what about nexus then?
17:13 VanessaE what about it?
17:13 hoodedice nexus is locked down as well fromt he get go. Easier to root and stuff, but locked down nevertheless
17:14 hoodedice *the
17:15 VanessaE it's still not Android doing it - it's the carrier/vendor (in this case, Google I guess)
17:15 hoodedice and the thing that makes me most angry - Google's intrusions and low level app integration with the OS
17:15 VanessaE and given how easy it is to fuck up, it's no surprise the phone has to be rooted first.
17:16 hoodedice I mean, let me choose among your services. Why break the phone if I don't want GMail?
17:16 hoodedice van, but at least keep the rooting process simple enough. With a shit phone that I have, I have to refer to outdated, half complete guides to do the bootloader stuff and root it
17:16 VanessaE I dunno, you could just not set up gmail.
17:17 hoodedice that is not a thing on android, the app exists anyway
17:17 VanessaE so?
17:17 hoodedice unless you remove ALL of google's services
17:17 VanessaE I have a Galaxy S4 and gmail is not set up on it.  it exists, but it does nothing.
17:17 hoodedice and then you can't use the play store too
17:17 hoodedice I just froze the app so it does nothing. I have a fix, but it is "hacky"
17:18 VanessaE paranoia is not good for you.
17:18 VanessaE I personally don't give two shits if the phone is tracked, marketed, and targeted.
17:18 hoodedice and easily customizable? Riiiight.
17:18 VanessaE what are they gonna do?  Sell me something?  BFD.
17:19 hoodedice I don't care enough either, but the apps are shit. 150 MB for a web browser? Opera laughs in you faces
17:19 hoodedice I felt that they were bloating it on purpose or somethign
17:19 VanessaE ...
17:19 hoodedice </tinfoilhat>
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17:20 hoodedice no really, give a me good reason why someone needs a quad core 2 gb ram phone at all, unless they are gaming
17:21 hoodedice another thing - you get free upgrades till the OS support runs out for Win/Mac/Linux. On android? GG m8 git new phone
17:22 hoodedice I'm done with google messing up with android. Bring back 2011 please
17:22 hoodedice </rant>
17:23 Sokomine hoodedice: if you manage to locate a good web browser for android, please forward it to me. javascript has to be disabled (enabling it for selected sites would be an option but isn't really required), and other tracking features have to be disabled as well
17:24 hoodedice IIRC older versions of Opera had options to turn off JS
17:24 Sokomine hoodedice: the bloating may not be on purpose. it's part of the normal process of development
17:25 hoodedice Soko, I find that hard to believe. I have other clients that run with lower mem requirements
17:25 Sokomine hmm. opera, yes perhaps
17:25 hoodedice tinfoily, I suppose, but it made me mad
17:25 Sokomine hoodedice: at least these high-power machines are good for running minetest
17:25 hoodedice using cloudmagic for email now - not as private yes, but I have all my email on one client, and it looks better and integrates better with trello
17:26 zat hmmmm: why not writing an official one?
17:26 zat (documentation for v7 biomes)
17:26 Sokomine my own smartphone isn't particulary smart anymore. it's a computer, and it's rarely connected to the net
17:27 hoodedice Soko, there is no reason to make high powered machines, whether in mobile or PC or cars for racing. The problem is when people *have* to upgrade to not be bogged down because the new OS needs more resources
17:27 hoodedice or some "new features"
17:27 hoodedice *there is no reason to not
17:27 Sokomine hoodedice: hm, with android, it certainly comes in handy for the manufacturers that a new version requires a new phone to be sold...
17:28 hoodedice sorry. High end machines are good for development. But they should be like PCs, where only a minority uses Intel Xeons
17:28 Sokomine i don't mind having a phone with a lot of hardware ressources. that's good! always wanted small computers with low power consumption and no noise emitted
17:29 Sokomine they're just...no longer something for doing phone calls, those modern phones
17:29 hoodedice then again, even if I ignore hardware, the nature of android itself doesn't seem "GNU/Linux-y"
17:29 hoodedice like I talked about earlier
17:30 Sokomine installing a truely open source system on such a phone without the many drawbacks android has would certainly be great and highly welcome
17:31 Sokomine zat: didn't paramat start some documentation of the biome stuff? i havn't done anything with them myshelf; just enjoy them in mapgens written by others
17:31 zat Sokomine: its for its not stable enough
17:31 zat its experimental
17:31 Sokomine ah. many things are experimental :-)
17:32 hoodedice brb
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17:50 hoodedice soko, newest opera doesn't have that feature (disabling JS)
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17:55 mccomase Orb
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18:14 Megaf [18:50] <hoodedice> soko, newest opera doesn't have that feature (disabling JS)
18:14 Megaf it does
18:15 Megaf in settings search for javascript
18:16 Megaf hoodedice: did you manage to rot you android from Linux?
18:17 Megaf I'd like to root my android devices, but I'm not installing windwows dor that
18:17 rom1504 yeah now it's totally rotten
18:17 Megaf s/rot/soot
18:17 Megaf s/soot/root
18:18 rom1504 you don't need an other computer to root your android
18:18 Megaf what do you mean?
18:20 Megaf rom1504: can I root my phone from my phone?
18:21 rom1504 yes
18:21 Megaf how?
18:22 rom1504 type in google root "your model", follow instructions
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18:26 hoodedice no Megaf, Windows
18:27 Megaf rom1504: anyway, I have a Motorola XT890 that bricket itself after and OTA update
18:27 Megaf hoodedice: and good luck finding a way to root my old Motorola XT317 on Linux
18:27 Megaf oops
18:27 Megaf rom1504: and good luck finding a way to root my old Motorola XT317 on Linux
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18:48 MinetestBot [git] kahrl -> minetest/minetest: Fix typo in variable name 0f15488 http://git.io/vkCyy (2015-05-28T20:47:15+02:00)
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19:04 Pilcrow haha. this computer never stored my bash history, and I never delved into finding out why... turns out, ~/.bash_history was owned by root and not readable/writable by my normal user? strange. a simple chown fixed it, lol...
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19:12 sofar evil person setup your user account :^)
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19:19 Pilcrow sofar: this is a local install by me. I don't /think/ I'm evil... lol, I have no idea how the file got screwed up, but that's the only one I had the wrong permissions on...  :P
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19:46 JadenWolflez Hello! :3
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20:09 TeTpaAka TenPlus1: max_objects_per_block = 49 in minetest.conf.example
20:10 TeTpaAka wrong chat.
20:10 Pilcrow lol
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20:27 rom1504 Pilcrow: you should do sudo chmod -R 777 / , it will fix all similar permissions problems
20:28 rom1504 (don't do this at home)
20:29 Pilcrow lol, open my entire filesystem up to the non-root account? sounds like a bad idea, man...  :P
20:30 Pilcrow why don't I just put my computer/router setup into DMZ mode while I'm at it?  :P
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20:34 rom1504 that will actually break a lot of stuff that require to have less open permissions :P
20:34 rom1504 (yeah I know someone who did that :d)
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21:01 Pilcrow well, I could've probably done chmod 777 ~/.bash_history instead, but chown was more right; that file /should/ be owned by the user...
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21:35 Birdy_ hmmm
21:38 hoodedice ?
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