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IRC log for #minetest, 2014-12-19

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:43 exio4 oh god, how I would love a nice support of meta-programming
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00:50 luizrpgluiz1 hi
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00:56 FreeFull What's the standard way of making a new, normal minetest world again?
00:58 FreeFull Ah, the v6 mapgen
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01:36 Panda__ Anyone able to help me solve this error? Trying to run the technic mod, came up with this error: https://gist.github.com/ano​nymous/07cb6bc9b6137488e0ec
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02:04 Zeno` gregorycu, what did you hear? hehehe
02:05 gregorycu gregorycuI'm looking at ClientMap::render
02:05 gregorycu gregorycuMore than half of its time is spent in ShaderCallback::OnSetConstants
02:05 Zeno` yeah correct
02:05 gregorycu ...
02:05 gregorycu RealBadAngelthats the main point of moving settings into a class and read its members instead of fiddlling with strings
02:06 gregorycu RealBadAngelZeno started to code that
02:06 gregorycu That's you!
02:06 Zeno` me and RBA plan to fix it after 0.4.11 and yes, I've 75% already coded it
02:06 Zeno` well, I've 100% coded it but I want to make some changes
02:07 gregorycu lol, and yet you act surprised
02:09 Zeno` :)
02:09 Zeno` that's me!
02:09 Zeno` lol
02:09 Zeno` I have a branch here, but looks like I'll have to rebase it
02:10 Zeno` won't apply
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02:26 MinetestBot [git] VanessaE -> minetest/minetest: Fix visual_scale for plantlike nodes (again) 0d55f43 http://git.io/SiXErw (2014-12-19T12:25:32+10:00)
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03:00 n00dle042 Anyone have this problem? Suddenly client sees nothing but black and the inventory HUD and crosshairs? Connect to same server with new user name and everything is visible? Reconnect with first username and all is still black?
03:01 n00dle042 Nevermind... just figured it out. I feel stupid... got grown into the middle of a tree. *sheepish grin*
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03:03 kaeza was gonna say
03:04 n00dle042 It's been so long since that has happened, that it was quite unfamiliar.
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03:12 Zeno` kaeza, are you able to compile right now?
03:12 kaeza yeah
03:12 kaeza need some testing?
03:12 Zeno` yeah; let me make a patch
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03:37 Bratmon Question: Is there a way for a mod to save data with the world independent of any block or entity?
03:38 kaeza Bratmon, you can open a file in the world's directory and store arbitrary data there
03:39 Bratmon Is there an api call to get the world's directory?
03:40 kaeza minetest.get_worldpath()
03:40 Bratmon Thanks.
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04:06 gregorycu There is a way to find out what mods are killing my performance
04:07 VanessaE yeah, bisect :)
04:08 VanessaE remove half of them.  If that worked, the problem was in the half you removed, so get rid of what remains and put the removed half back.  In either case, remove half of what's left.
04:08 gregorycu Binary search
04:08 VanessaE yep.
04:09 VanessaE sooner or later you're down to one mod that's responsible
04:09 VanessaE but that said, define "killing my performance"
04:12 gregorycu Chunks would fail to load/be displayed
04:12 gregorycu I can walk to the end of the world
04:13 VanessaE odd.
04:13 VanessaE well in that case, bisect and good luck :)
04:15 Zeno` cookie monster mod does that
04:16 VanessaE heh
04:27 gregorycu This is driving me bonkers
04:28 gregorycu Nothing has changed but it's way slower
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06:13 Zeno` MinerDad, https://github.com/MinerDad7/minetest/blob/inve​ntory_predictions/src/inventorymanager.cpp#L222
06:13 Zeno` The problem on that line is that int may not be 16 bits
06:14 MinerDad yes
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06:14 Zeno` so using   if(src_can_take_count != -1 ... on lines 294 and nearby is not portable
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06:14 Zeno` well those ones are
06:15 Zeno` I'd just change line 222 to init the values to -1
06:15 MinerDad that code's been there for quite some time.
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06:15 Zeno` you discovered a bug then :)
06:15 Zeno` there are many
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06:15 Zeno` maybe it's why the whole predict thing hasn't worked very well in the past (in my experience) hehe
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06:16 MinerDad should I fix it in my pull request or create another pull request just for that
06:16 MinerDad those lines aren't related with prediction.  They are the actual code that does inventory movement on the server.
06:17 Zeno` I think you should probably fix it there
06:17 MinerDad will stoi correctly convert "-1" to -1 on an int?
06:17 Zeno` yeah
06:17 MinerDad ok, I'll remove the 0xffff stuff and just use -1 directly in both the places
06:18 Zeno` yep
06:19 Zeno` bugs like that I fix if I find them even if the PR isn't really related
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09:42 Zeno` can everyone please stop talking at once?
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10:39 T4im you should update your git clients against CVE-2014-9390 if you are unlucky enough to dev on a windows or mac ;) otherwise you might have script execution on clone
10:40 T4im linux is unaffected
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12:06 Megaf_ That's very interesting http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Intern​et/HTTP-WWW-/GNOME-Maps-102221.shtml
12:06 Megaf_ !title
12:06 MinetestBot Megaf_: Download GNOME Maps  3.15.3 for Linux - Softpedia
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12:36 Zeno` hmm
12:38 exio4 cool
12:38 exio4 powercuts are lovely
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13:08 FreeFull Moving a large amount of items is painful due to all the back-and-forth
13:09 exio4 F#'s type system is very limited, you don't have higher-kinded polymorphism, and not even existential types!
13:10 FreeFull Rust doesn't have higher-kinded types yet, and I think it has existentials, but only for lifetimes
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13:10 exio4 Rust is relatively new
13:10 exio4 and is low-level
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13:21 exio4 :(
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13:26 gravgun exio4 (or anyone else here), do you know any low-level object-oriented language that is not as messed up as C++, and compiles to C or has an LLVM-based compiler?
13:27 gravgun I'm looking for one...
13:27 exio4 if you could remove the object-oriented part, you could get a not messed up language
13:27 exio4 OOP is messed up by design
13:27 exio4 also, low-level language that is amazing, Rust!
13:27 gravgun I love Rust for its design and goals
13:28 gravgun but I dislike its syntax
13:29 gregorycu grav
13:29 gregorycu D
13:30 exio4 complexity is evil; and OOP is designed to add complexity to complex things
13:30 gravgun gregorycu: IIRC it has a proprietary compiler, doesn't it?
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13:30 exio4 it doesn't?
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13:31 gregorycu LDC
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13:31 exio4 if you want a language without propietary compilers, go for Haskell!
13:32 gravgun Existing proprietary compilers doesn't bother me
13:32 gravgun Using them is a strict no-no
13:33 gravgun The "official DMD frontend" LDC relies on is also open source?
13:34 gregorycu FIIK
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13:35 gravgun Self-answer: it is: "Distributed under the Boost Software License, Version 1.0."
13:36 gravgun Boost License: "FSF approved: Yes    OSI approved: Yes   GPL:compatible Yes" \o/
13:36 exio4 also, OOP's "tricks" are unsound by design too
13:36 exio4 gravgun, may I ask why you need it to be object oriented?
13:36 gregorycu Cause he obviously wants to solve a real problem
13:36 gravgun Actually I don't NEED it oriented
13:36 gravgun I know OOP is a mess
13:37 gravgun But there are some clear advantages over non-OOP (i.e. functional) languages
13:37 gravgun code-wise
13:37 gravgun (length)
13:38 exio4 APL would be a clear winner, but that isn't why I like FP :P
13:38 exio4 in the functional paradigm, you abstract for reducing boilerplate, in OOP, you are adding boilerplate for the sake of doing it
13:38 exio4 also, inheritance is dumb
13:39 exio4 subtype polymorphism shouldn't be the default, either
13:39 exio4 parametric polymorphism, and bounded parametric polymorphism is very powerful
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13:41 exio4 abstraction comes naturaly in functional languages too
13:41 exio4 dat REAL code-reuse
13:44 Zeno` Modula-2 FTW!
13:44 T4im oop is not designed for complexity but to increase functional cohesion, as have many other patterns.. it just has its limits in doing so for everything.. not using it at all would just limit things even more.. note: i am not making a oop vs functional argument but an oop vs non-oop.. functional and oop are not mutually exclusive
13:45 Zeno` I doubt many people even know what OOP is
13:45 exio4 T4im, OOP can be good, but I like to think it is a domain-specific language
13:45 exio4 what is insane, is using OOP as the general purpose solution
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13:47 exio4 the insane part, is using.. <- another way to re-phrase what I said
13:47 T4im why do you consider increase in functioal cohesion as insane?
13:48 T4im using dsl's as limitation for a language paradigma isnt that foward either.. sure you can use oop in dsl's, as you can use functional programming or other forms.. depending on domain different paradigms might perform differently.. sure
13:49 T4im i would not want oop in a mathematical dsl necessarily.. seems redundant there
13:52 exio4 T4im, the thing about OOP, is that the normal "definition" of OOP includes wrong things like inheritance and/or wrong defaults, and as lots of people don't agree with whatever OOP is, I'll use the modern definition of staticly typed OOP mainstream languages (Java/C++) and maybe? dynamic OOP langs (python/ruby); and if you limit yourself to the basic subset of not crazy features, you have got records with functions and closures
13:53 exio4 I'd *
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13:57 T4im hm i think what you mean with that first absoloute "wrong", is that its easy possible to use wrong, not that it is per se, i suppose?
13:57 T4im though i'm not even talking primarily about inheritance when i mention oop :D
13:59 T4im i mean, personally i try to avoid it as much as i can in favour of more flexible abstract typing
13:59 T4im which is just as oop
13:59 n4x T4im: I don't think I meant "easy to abuse", because lots of amazing things are "easy" to abuse!
14:01 Zeno` inheritance and polymorphism is not an intrinsic requirement of OOP
14:01 Zeno` my C is "oop"
14:01 n4x you can write functional-ish C too
14:01 n4x we're talking about turing-complete languages, after all
14:02 Zeno` n4x, you can, and I know a person who does that very well :)
14:02 Zeno` (not me)
14:02 n4x you can write "functional" code in Java, and there are a few projects that "try to do that"
14:03 T4im take interfaces... they provide a software contract that is independend of the implementation, that not just enforces more cohesion, but also leads to decreased coupling (by relaxing dependencies between implementation parts)
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14:03 n4x T4im: interfaces in OOP are very limited, though
14:04 n4x T4im: things like typeclasses (which are "newish", I have to agree, but are already more than 20 years old), do this way better
14:04 T4im not at all.. in good written java code you find a lot of interfaces where you would otherwise expect inheritance
14:04 n4x interfaces are one of the good things of OOP
14:05 T4im and if used a lot, you rarly need to inherit anymore ;)
14:05 n4x also, Greenspun's tenth law! ;P
14:05 n4x having too abstracted code for the sake of not using inheritance is because your language can't do better
14:07 n4x also, interfaces, ML modules, heck
14:07 T4im i honestly like abstract :P but that might simply be personal preferance
14:07 Zeno` modula-2!
14:08 T4im being extremly abstract is of course slowing implementation (at least initially) down, but lets you scale higher :D
14:08 n4x too abstract is good when you have some meta laws that don't make you fuck up
14:08 Zeno` being extremely abstract does not necessary mean slower
14:09 T4im Zeno`: well initially you have to plan a lot ahead to not run into walls instead of just solving problems from the beginning.. in latter variant you usually get quicker to a "first working version"
14:09 T4im at least thats my experience
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14:10 n4x the same could be said while working with types
14:10 * T4im has somtime to throttle himself from doing that in quick and dirty solutions, hehe
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14:11 n4x T4im: most of the cases where you are using "abstract concepts", I bet are just complex-ways to replace high-order functions (and/or closures)
14:13 n4x I don't like being too abstract for the sake of it, but in normal functional PL, you already working at a more-than-the-average level of "abstractness", I guess!
14:15 n4x also, theorems for free
14:17 T4im isn't it possible, that you are just refering to them as complex because they are a different way looking at it? ;) if i'm not mistaken someone being used to oop might say the opposite as well.. i doubt one is more right than the other
14:17 n4x this pearl is nice http://worrydream.com/refs/Hughes-W​hyFunctionalProgrammingMatters.pdf ; too
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14:17 T4im at least more right an the other generally speaking… i bet there are plenty of cases in which either one is preferable over the other
14:17 luizrpgluiz hi
14:17 T4im hello!
14:17 T4im :)
14:18 n4x T4im: well, I have to agree that I didn't use OOP a lot compared to FP, but mostly because when I wanted to do something, it was shorter, consise(r?), and easier to reason about when I made it "functionalish"
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14:20 luizrpgluiz T4im: where in the game you more developed?
14:20 n4x (the easier to reason about is one of the things that keep me being a functional fanboy, it is a powerful thing when you start getting used to it, you just "can't do anything else!", the functions practically write themselves after you got the types right!)
14:20 T4im :D
14:21 n4x if you have a function (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> Maybe (a,b); there aren't _that_ many functions you can use that are actually useful (not constants, by the way!)
14:21 T4im you know scala? they married FP and OOP both equally very strong together.. they manged one thing the most.. increasing the learning curve for everybody, no matter the background :P
14:21 n4x I don't like Scala
14:21 T4im they probably oversyntaxsugared it a little
14:22 T4im :D
14:23 n4x they basically got a powerful but verbose type system that make it useless for anything (its type inference is crap, and most of the benefits of a good type system are because you don't need to repeat yourself), in a verbose object-oriented programming language
14:23 n4x I think they said "well, lets get Java, uh, I want high order functions, k lets add them, what do you think about this other feature? yeah, lets add it too"
14:23 n4x and you got the modern C++ that basically took the worst of all sides
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14:25 T4im how long have you tried scala?
14:25 n4x also, most benefits of the functional paradigm are nearly nonexistant when you break the basic levels of purity (I know, ML has side-effects, Scheme/Racket too!, but damn, they discourage them!)
14:25 T4im my experience is, that with time the code you can write becomes less and less verbose (sadly also more and more hard to read if you ask me)
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14:26 n4x T4im: not for so long, only write toy programs like small interpreters, and some other things, and yes
14:26 n4x T4im: the same with Haskell, with has a light syntax compared to Scala
14:26 n4x yes, you can write "terse" code with it, but you already have too much boilerplate
14:28 n4x T4im: the hard to read part is also because its syntax is too heavy!
14:28 T4im :)
14:29 n4x I have to say, though, between Java and Scala, I would obviously go with Scala
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14:30 n4x because that is like comparing brainfuck with php
14:30 n4x also; http://ttic.uchicago.edu/~dre​yer/course/papers/wadler.pdf
14:33 roniz http://a.pomf.se/vrnjvs.png
14:33 roniz what is wrong with my glass
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15:05 Megaf_ can someone please join my server ASAP an see if there's nothing on fire at spawn?
15:05 Megaf_ !server Megaf
15:05 MinetestBot Megaf_: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 0/10, 0/0 | Version: 0.4.10-dev / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 2ms
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15:06 shadowzone ~server selah
15:06 ShadowBot shadowzone: server [--{name,address,ip,players,ping,port} <value>]
15:06 shadowzone hmm
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15:07 shadowzone nothing
15:07 shadowzone Megaf_: it's fine
15:07 sfan5 Megaf_: nope, nothing on fire
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15:08 Megaf_ cool, thanks
15:09 Megaf_ shadowzone: sfan5: This morning I upgraded my minetest game and forgot to disable fire, the whole world was on fire, a mess!
15:10 shadowzone Yikes
15:10 Megaf_ Fortunetaly I had a minute old backup that I uploaded back to my server
15:13 Megaf_ Thanks a million shadowzone sfan5
15:15 shadowzone You're welcome
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15:21 pirilon hi
15:22 shadowzone Hi
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16:19 Calinou https://gitorious.org/calinou/sfxr/ – sound generator, may be of use for Minetest
16:19 Calinou generates .wav files, then convert them to .ogg
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17:08 Yellowberry maybe I shouldn't have stayed up for 29 hours...
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17:11 kaeza greetings
17:11 exio4 hai kaeza
17:12 exio4 hai Yellowberry too
17:12 Yellowberry hi
17:12 Yellowberry the only thing I feel like doing right now is sleeping
17:12 exio4 then sleep
17:12 Yellowberry but i've got school to do
17:13 Yellowberry and a metric crapton, never the less
17:13 exio4 I'd go all "fuck it, I will sleep anyway"
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17:14 Yellowberry but
17:14 stormchaser3000 XD my client is set to notify me when someone swears
17:14 Yellowberry if I don't finish all my school, I get an F in all my grades
17:15 Yellowberry stormchaser3000: what an amusing feature
17:15 Yellowberry s/grades/subjects/
17:15 exio4 Yellowberry, what do you need to do? some kind of homework?
17:15 Yellowberry pretty much
17:15 Yellowberry lots of it
17:15 exio4 burn it
17:16 exio4 fire always make me happy
17:16 * Yellowberry can't burn virtual papers
17:16 * Yellowberry goes to online school
17:16 exio4 online school
17:16 exio4 sounds cool
17:16 exio4 why haven't you done the homework before though
17:17 Yellowberry because I was putting it off
17:20 Yellowberry wow
17:21 Yellowberry why was I putting this stuff off? I really don't know, they are super easy 3 question tests
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17:26 Yellowberry exio4: it really is cool, but sometimes its hard to stay motivated
17:27 exio4 I took an online course in coursera last year, in the summer
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17:27 exio4 I found it really nice, but I had someone else to talk about it over here
17:27 exio4 Yellowberry, what about you? ^
17:28 Yellowberry well, I attend http://k12.com
17:28 Yellowberry exio4: ^
17:29 exio4 do you know anyone that is taking the same courses/whatever like you?
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17:40 Yellowberry yep
17:40 Yellowberry its like public school, i've got classmates and everything
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17:44 exio4 Yellowberry, well, anyone who is kind of nice? the only way I get motivated to so something, is to have someone else to fool with
17:45 Yellowberry yeah
17:45 Yellowberry all my classmates are really nice
17:45 Yellowberry but
17:45 Yellowberry one annoying thing is that they can barely use a windows computer
17:45 Yellowberry :/
17:48 exio4 well, I can't really talk about something similar to school
17:49 exio4 I took a course about programming languages, not so similar! :P
17:49 Yellowberry heh
17:49 exio4 https://www.coursera.org/course/proglang
17:49 exio4 I've to say it was amazing ^
17:50 exio4 I bet taking it irl is a beautiful experience
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17:54 rubenwardy Hi all!
17:54 rubenwardy http://rubenwardy.github.io/christmas_hat_game/
17:55 Krock rubenwardy, idea: perfect, speed: could be optimized, it eats 96% CPU
17:55 rubenwardy Really?
17:55 rubenwardy Impressive
17:56 Krock 24 score
17:56 rubenwardy Are you on a laptop?
17:57 Krock rubenwardy, desktop PC - could be compeared with a laptop (looking at speed)
17:57 Krock rubenwardy, there are many snowflakes coming down - could you reduce those?
17:57 rubenwardy Yeah
17:58 Calinou the dots are very hard to see, rubenwardy
17:58 Calinou make them bright red or yellow
17:59 Calinou also the snow could be slower
17:59 rubenwardy They are meant to be hard to see
17:59 jin_xi would be better if they were visible but more of a challenge to catch
18:00 jin_xi same with green stuff, its more like seeing test than game now
18:01 kaeza I can barely see the dots :/
18:01 jin_xi thats the fun appearantly
18:01 rubenwardy I'm changing the colours right now
18:01 rubenwardy Darker sky, brighter dots
18:01 Jordach this was worth the 5 minutes https://cdn.mediacru.sh/s/sbHAYAeSWKp4.png
18:02 rubenwardy Awesome
18:02 Jordach (i haven't used pens in ~3 years)
18:03 Jordach and Krita is the tits
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18:04 exio4 get better eyes
18:04 exio4 I can sell you a new pair for only 200 USD
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18:06 Calinou thanks for darker sky
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18:06 Krock rubenwardy, a better hat: http://imgur.com/iBu9dWu
18:07 Krock increase contrast if you're not happy :)
18:08 kaeza exio4, "I have my father's eyes"
18:08 exio4 are you selling them?
18:08 exio4 I mean, what?
18:10 Jordach exio4, kaezie is colour blind
18:10 kaeza exio4, never seen "Hotshots"? :P
18:11 exio4 colour? is that even a word?! ;)
18:11 VanessaE please, put those away
18:11 exio4 no kaeza
18:11 kaeza ^ :D
18:12 rubenwardy Updated (you may need to ctrl-f5)
18:12 Krock coulour
18:13 * Krock failed once again
18:13 Calinou Word.
18:14 Krock oops. green dots are deadly
18:14 Krock test
18:14 rubenwardy They're brussel sprouts
18:14 rubenwardy Brussel Sprouts are deadly
18:14 kaeza ,00Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down...
18:15 * Krock wonders why this IRC client can display underlined text but can't send such messages
18:15 VanessaE kaeza: you bastard
18:15 Krock kaeza, exactly
18:15 kaeza :D
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18:19 Calinou which clients can view italic text? other than HexChat
18:19 gravgun Quassel can
18:19 gravgun It can write it too
18:20 Krock nTalk can't
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18:26 VanessaE bbl
18:33 rubenwardy Updated, more levels. XD http://rubenwardy.github.io/christmas_hat_game/
18:36 Calinou where is the source code, rubenwardy?
18:36 rubenwardy https://github.com/rubenwardy/christmas_hat_game
18:36 gravgun Brussel sprouts
18:36 gravgun srsly
18:37 Calinou I did a score of 56
18:37 rubenwardy Yay
18:37 Calinou also, plural of “life” is “lives”, not “lifes”
18:37 rubenwardy My best score is 250, but that was before the new levels
18:39 rubenwardy It took less than an hour to code
18:40 Calinou rubenwardy, BTW, did you see this? https://gitorious.org/calinou/sfxr/
18:40 Calinou http://www.drpetter.se/files/sfxr.zip for a Windows build
18:41 rubenwardy Interesting
18:41 rubenwardy (I use kubuntu)
18:41 * harrison attacks Yellowberry with Alternative Leek
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18:47 Calinou my Gitorious repository has a few tweaks, including a brighter background
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19:02 * Yellowberry attacks harrison with Cabbage Pasta
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19:03 Krock Ankklhm, ##fix_your_connection
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19:08 FreeFull Ok, I've just learned, in minetest, water makes lava worse
19:09 FreeFull Because it makes a bunch of stone that makes the lava spread out wider
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19:14 Yellowberry Krock: its not his fault, he has bad internet
19:14 Krock aha
19:14 Krock ##fix_yor_connection is perfect for bad internet
19:15 kaeza marktraceur Windows Metafile?
19:15 * kaeza hides
19:16 marktraceur kaeza: Wikimedia Foundation :) I sometimes like to joke that I am two different people
19:16 kaeza heh
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19:25 SoniEx2 so can I tell the client to rotate a model?
19:25 SoniEx2 wait uhh this isn't here is it?
19:26 SoniEx2 wait is this here or should I ask in -dev?
19:26 Calinou SoniEx2, not sure if model rotation is possible
19:26 Calinou ask here, this isn't a core development question
19:26 SoniEx2 it kinda is
19:27 SoniEx2 because I want to be able to tell the client how to rotate a model
19:27 Calinou mod development questions stay in #minetest
19:27 Calinou or do you want to write a patch?
19:27 SoniEx2 it's more of a request
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19:27 SoniEx2 this'll save some RAM
19:27 Calinou translation would also be useful
19:27 SoniEx2 uhh no not really
19:28 SoniEx2 that sounds like pain to handle
19:28 SoniEx2 I just want rotate/flip
19:28 SoniEx2 so say I make a pipe
19:28 SoniEx2 6 sides, they can be connected or disconnected, that's 2^6 models
19:28 Calinou translation sounds pretty easy
19:28 Calinou most game engines can do it on load
19:29 SoniEx2 with rotate/flip, it's just 10
19:29 SoniEx2 (I already calculated it)
19:29 Calinou they can also rotate… but not always flip
19:29 SoniEx2 and this should be per block
19:29 SoniEx2 let's see how many ways can you flip/rotate a block?
19:30 SoniEx2 that's the number of bits you need
19:30 Calinou 6d facedir
19:30 Calinou you can rotate the nodes (which includes their nodebox/model) using facedir system
19:30 SoniEx2 so it's already in?
19:31 Calinou yes
19:31 SoniEx2 well now that beats mojang's JSON system already
19:31 Calinou you can rotate on all axis
19:31 Calinou see screwdriver for an example
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23:05 crazyR Why is it world edit sometimes causes lighting issues
23:09 Bratmon I've never used world edit, but I feel that that's a simple question with a long and complicated answer.
23:09 Bratmon On the order of "What is there war?"
23:09 Bratmon Lighting is hard.
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23:18 hoodedice "I'm marking that as "Won't fix" until you adopt a coding style that doesn't remind me of Dr Seuss" - afflatus
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