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IRC log for #minetest, 2014-02-08

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Time Nick Message
00:00 Jordach VanessaE, CAPES
00:00 Jordach GODAMN CAPES
00:00 Jordach ^ *clap clap clap*
00:01 ShadowNinja joined #minetest
00:03 VanessaE now what about Taoki's animation fix?
00:04 Taoki Obviously, I'm going to have to make it again :/
00:08 VanessaE oh, too bad it can't somehow be merged the way code changes can
00:09 VanessaE Jordach: about these capes..
00:09 VanessaE Jordach: how exactly do they work?
00:09 VanessaE aside from the location within the skin file
00:09 Jordach VanessaE, AH
00:09 Jordach fuck
00:09 VanessaE is this some Minecraft standard?
00:09 Jordach lemme make a magic post
00:09 VanessaE I have of course seen the example skin file
00:10 VanessaE or rather, the example given in the pull request
00:10 VanessaE but I mean, is this something MC did that we're taking into account now?
00:10 Jordach VanessaE, they don't allow custom capes
00:10 PaulHarrisJr_ joined #minetest
00:12 VanessaE hm
00:12 VanessaE and we're just using an unused area of the existing skin format
00:14 VanessaE I have a few skins in my set here that have imagery in the "cape" area though..
00:15 VanessaE also
00:15 VanessaE are you aware of those lower right four pixels?
00:16 VanessaE they seem to have some use.
00:16 Jordach https://forum.minetest.net/vie​wtopic.php?pid=128954#p128954
00:18 Jordach addi is going to love this ;)
00:18 VanessaE see above..........
00:18 Jordach Taoki, once you get the upgraded animations, i'll have a crack at the 1.8 MC style skins
00:18 VanessaE this wasn't adequately thought out.
00:18 Jordach VanessaE, that or no custom capes
00:19 VanessaE is there a way to turn the capes off?
00:19 Jordach VanessaE, leave the red section completely alpha
00:19 Jordach existing skins will not have capes
00:19 Taoki Jordach: The fix is a simple one: Go in the Animations tab in Blender, select all key frames, press V, and choose "vector". This fixes the bad curves that mead to the animation problem, and is the correct animation style for that model.
00:19 VanessaE I meant from a model standpoint.
00:19 Taoki Anyone can do that and put the fix on GIT
00:20 Jordach VanessaE, it's just a 12x8x1 (pixels)
00:20 VanessaE head -> desk
00:20 Jordach which is 6 faces
00:20 VanessaE Jordach: you clearly did not test this with enough skins
00:21 VanessaE ShadowNinja: ^^^^^^^^^  the capes thing will be a problem.....
00:21 Jordach VanessaE, bullshit
00:21 Jordach VanessaE, when 1.8 comes out: you will have shit hit the fan
00:21 VanessaE Jordach: G*d damn it look for yourself
00:21 Jordach because skin sizes BECOME 64X64
00:21 Taoki God has become a swear word :3
00:21 VanessaE http://minetest.digitalaudioconce​pts.com/creative-survival-media/
00:21 VanessaE Jordach: look at a random selection of player_* files from there ^^^^^
00:22 EvergreenTree joined #minetest
00:22 Taoki Jordach: However, I am also afraid that it will be either capes or the 1.8 clothing thingie or whatever was added
00:22 EvergreenTree joined #minetest
00:22 Taoki I don't get why some wanted a caped model really... but well, it happened
00:22 VanessaE Jordach: every one of those files is a raw, unedited Minecraft skin.  75% of them have something in your "cape" area that will not look right when used as a cape.
00:23 Jordach VanessaE, imagemagick
00:23 VanessaE Jordach: nope.avi
00:23 Jordach VanessaE, 1.8 skin format: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage​/screenshot-080214-002213.php
00:23 PilzAdam Jordach, YOU BROKE EVERYTHING
00:23 VanessaE you're violating the Minecraft skin format.
00:23 Jordach so stifle good idea with the bad ones
00:23 VanessaE and yeah, I've seen that new layered format.  I don't care about ti right now.
00:23 Jordach VanessaE, people will be asking for them soon
00:23 VanessaE I'm talking about the skin files we can use *right now*
00:24 Jordach VanessaE, manually fucking clean them (you get 1-5 a day)
00:24 VanessaE it'd be easier if I just put the old player model in.
00:24 Jordach then i just let shit hit the fan
00:24 Jordach your players will be asking about said capes
00:25 VanessaE or if you guys had though "hey, how about we make BOTH models available - with or without the cape"
00:25 VanessaE oh dear G*d we can't do that!  CHOICES!  NO!"
00:25 Jordach VanessaE, two textures or one
00:25 Jordach i PULLED FUCKING TEETH on the santa hat
00:25 Jordach it used a second texture which wasn't part of the actual skin
00:25 MinetestBot GIT: Sapier at GMX dot net commited to minetest/minetest: Remove lots of dead code f4f98c9550 2014-02-07T12:39:45-08:00 http://git.io/oXv6qA
00:25 * VanessaE facepalms
00:25 Taoki I think capes should have waited. Until the new skin format thing could have been clarified. But I don't mean to judge... some wanted capes so yeah
00:25 VanessaE why didn't anyone ask me?
00:26 Jordach VanessaE, because you didn't host back then full time
00:26 Taoki I don't get them myself
00:26 Jordach and custom skins was limited to the skins mod
00:26 VanessaE so back out the capes change now before it gets writtne into stone
00:26 VanessaE written*
00:27 VanessaE the cape should have been a separate file
00:27 Jordach VanessaE, bitch and moan: give it a month and it'll be fine
00:27 VanessaE it isn't that G*d damned difficult to load two images
00:27 Taoki Ugh, no need to fight over this
00:27 Jordach VanessaE, materials is a bitch to handle in irrlicht
00:27 VanessaE Jordach, you're not the one who has to post process every G*d damned image that comes across now
00:27 Taoki Jordach: Do capes use a different texture and a different material in the x file?
00:27 Jordach Taoki, no
00:27 Jordach they're part of the player skin
00:28 VanessaE Taoki: no, they use an area in the minecraft skin that was reserved for some other use
00:28 Taoki Ok. That's probably bad. Especially with 1.8 style skins
00:28 Taoki One texture will likely not be able to hold both
00:28 Jordach Taoki, well, if VanessaE gets a request for a 1.8 SKIN i might DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
00:28 * Taoki nods
00:28 VanessaE I already brought this up a long time ago
00:29 VanessaE the proper solution would have been two separate models - one with capes, one without.
00:29 Jordach VanessaE, you think PilzAdam would allow 600kb used up for nothing
00:29 Taoki Two models would have probably been very duplicative
00:29 Jordach Taoki, i learned that with the separate gender models
00:29 Taoki Cape can likely be removed by having alpha over it as well
00:29 Jordach Taoki, the cape works just like the hat layer
00:30 Taoki Jordach: Separate gender models wouldn't be needed at this simplicity. Except for the detailed model you made and shown me screenshots and animations of, there yeah
00:30 Jordach Taoki, i meant keeping two models in sync with fixes
00:30 Taoki Jordach: Oh, so no black will show over it for skins that didn't enable it, right?
00:30 * Taoki nods
00:30 VanessaE Taoki: 75% of the skin files in my library have something there *already*
00:30 Jordach VanessaE, blame the skin artists
00:31 Jordach we're depending on a format that will change at RANDOM
00:31 Taoki Jordach: Then the only problem remains how to enable 1.8 skins. Because they use the same areas of the UV mapping as the cape. It will have to be one or the other
00:31 VanessaE Jordach: these skins appear to contain algorithmic data in that area, not art.
00:31 VanessaE in most cases.
00:31 Taoki If capes are in, 1.8 skins probably never will be
00:31 Jordach Taoki, i can do both with materials
00:31 Taoki Personally, I don't care much about either. But it might be a hard choice
00:31 Jordach but i will bitch about it
00:31 Taoki Ah...
00:31 Taoki Actually you're right
00:31 Taoki Using different materials, and separately assigning a texture to each, would work
00:32 Jordach irrlicht does support that
00:32 Jordach but there's so much fucking bullshit attached in player side lua
00:32 Taoki Yes. When I coded models I made sure Minetest does too
00:32 Jordach you have to manually grant each player a second fucking texture
00:32 Jordach if not: the cape will use the first texture in the series
00:32 Taoki This could be good: First material would be normal player skin with clothes, second cape.
00:33 Jordach Taoki, read my message with custom skins that don't support multi materials
00:33 Taoki Jordach: It should work with two materials. Material 1 (current) is skin + hat + clothing (1.8.), second will be just cape
00:33 VanessaE Jordach: look at this one please  http://minetest.digitalaudioconcepts.com/c​reative-survival-media/player_cheapie.png
00:33 Taoki ok
00:33 VanessaE Jordach: look in the lower right corner.
00:33 VanessaE see those four pixels?  THAT is more common than not.  and I doubt the skin artist put them there.
00:34 Jordach VanessaE, what software was used
00:34 VanessaE Jordach: beats me, some Minecraft skin editor I suppose
00:34 Jordach if it's that shitty minecraft skins place causing it: you must fucking ban that shit
00:34 VanessaE Jordach: I'm trying to tell you you CAN'T use that space, it's guaranteed to be filled with garbage in 75% of the skins out there
00:34 zat joined #minetest
00:34 Jordach VanessaE, well then
00:35 Jordach you fix the shitty handling of multiple materials in IRRLICHT
00:35 VanessaE even my nice skin, the one with the purpose crop top?  your capes model just gave me BARE SKIN for a cape :P
00:35 VanessaE s/purpose/purple/
00:35 Jordach VanessaE, back then it wasn't meant to be used with player_texutres
00:36 VanessaE whats that got to do with anything?
00:36 VanessaE player_textures vastly predates your capes.
00:36 Jordach VanessaE, because zeg's mod was used more
00:36 VanessaE so?
00:36 VanessaE the skin format didn't change from one to the other
00:36 Jordach i catered the more used item
00:37 Jordach VanessaE, try moving forward without having to change a fundamental
00:37 Taoki Only thing I strongly believe: If 1.8 skin support is added, make sure the clothes use the same material as the normal skin. The hat also uses it, so those should be the same file. If anything is to be separated, that should be the cape
00:38 VanessaE Jordach: you knew that the skin format was Minecraft
00:38 Jordach VanessaE, yes
00:38 VanessaE you opted to try to wedge something in that was NOT from the Minecraft format
00:38 Jordach i know that fucking thing very well
00:39 VanessaE YOU screwed up :(
00:39 Jordach VanessaE, then that's no different to me USING THE FUCKING SPARE PIXELS BETWEEN THE HAT AND THE HEAD
00:39 VanessaE so come on man
00:39 VanessaE just un-screw it
00:39 Taoki Don't worry about it everyone... we'll find a way to fix them
00:40 VanessaE just make it a separate image, and instead of fucking about with irrlicht materials - just load two images, combine them in memory *before you pass it to irrlicht*, and THEN USE IT
00:40 Jordach you want me to fix it
00:40 VanessaE jeez
00:40 Taoki :(
00:40 Jordach VanessaE, texture^texture2 doesn't work with player models
00:40 VanessaE who said anything about using the ^ operator?
00:40 Taoki VanessaE: I don't think that is possible. Or at least I don't know... I'm only aware of multiple materials being possible
00:41 Jordach because that's what you exactly fucking said
00:41 Jordach >just load two images, combine them in memory *before you pass it to irrlicht*, and THEN USE IT
00:41 Taoki The problem is the scape and the 1.8 skins would both use the same areas of the UV map
00:41 VanessaE no, I did not say that, Jordach
00:41 Taoki Only separate images can fix that
00:41 VanessaE yes, exactly Taoki
00:41 VanessaE "separate images"
00:41 VanessaE as in two separate files
00:41 Taoki Yeah
00:42 VanessaE loaded in and then joined together with good old fashioned image processing BEFORE YOU PASS IT to irrlicht
00:42 VanessaE as in
00:42 Taoki I must admit... for capes that might make some sense. Although... why not for clothing as well?
00:42 VanessaE don't even let lua have it
00:42 VanessaE well let lua have it too I guess
00:42 Taoki Reason I'm saying this is, separate materials for normal skin and 1.8 cloth + hat would allow us to make clothing individually from chosen skin
00:42 VanessaE but I mean, don't try to shoehorn it into the ^ operator
00:42 Taoki Imagine selecting any skin, and being able to wear anything from a wardrobe on it
00:43 Taoki Clothing and capes could do it both :)
00:43 VanessaE it could be done with clothing, but as there is already a skin format that handles it, you don't need to
00:43 Jordach not my fault you chose a borked engine and a badly designed skin format
00:43 VanessaE but there is no skin format that has capes, you HAVE to handle them separately.
00:43 Taoki Yeah. For this idea you'd need separate materials on clothing. But it would be easy
00:43 PilzAdam VanessaE, actually, the ^ is operator combines 2 seperate textures before they are passed to Irrlicht
00:43 Jordach easy in blender sense: difficult with an engine that is hard to work with
00:43 Jordach (no really; i've tried multiple materials)
00:44 Taoki Combining textures would likely not help. Because it's the areas of the UV amp that would be the problem
00:44 Taoki **map
00:44 Jordach you have two choices: BREAK AWAY FROM THAT MC DEPENDANCY, OR MAKE IRRLICHT BETTER with MATERIALS
00:44 us-0gb joined #minetest
00:45 VanessaE PilzAdam: my point is to combine them in a context that's separate from the ^ operator - in the same way that different textures for a node are in separate contexts from one another, compared to multiple textures joined^together^with^carets on one particular face.
00:45 VanessaE but of course it's a different piece of code that handles it
00:45 Taoki Materials exist, and IMO they wouldn't be a bad choice here
00:45 Jordach Taoki, dynamic assignment of combined materials will go wrong
00:46 Jordach especially on VE-*
00:46 VanessaE Jordach: materials then.
00:46 PilzAdam meh, just remove the capes
00:46 Taoki I'm actually loving this idea now: Have a player skin selection system, and a wardrobe system. Normally, any player model will use the same texture for the clothing material (current behavior with one material). But using the wardrobe, you can use the clothing of any other skin separately, to dress up however you want :)
00:47 Jordach Taoki, you'd have to build hundreds of skin parts
00:47 Taoki PilzAdam: Personally I'd say the same. But some people want them from what I hear
00:47 PilzAdam bye
00:47 Jordach i could build a proof of concept - but with you lot complaining that it breaks something pisses me off
00:48 Jordach grow up and fucking get used to it
00:48 EvergreenTree I didn't even know the place where the cape is is used for anything else
00:48 VanessaE I would honestly have to move to revert the capes until they can be implemented using a separate file for the cape.
00:49 EvergreenTree Having seperate files for skins is actually a good diea
00:49 EvergreenTree *idea
00:49 VanessaE and I thought we already HAD the materials thing figured out??
00:49 Jordach i agree on the pick and choose
00:49 VanessaE did not someone already FIX that ages ago?
00:49 Jordach VanessaE, reverted in git
00:49 VanessaE wat?
00:49 VanessaE when?
00:49 Jordach because of some fucking random conflict
00:49 VanessaE head -> desk
00:50 VanessaE ok so then do what I said
00:50 VanessaE load two images, join them on a bigger canvas
00:50 Jordach go fuck myself, okay
00:50 VanessaE and then cut THAT FILE up
00:50 VanessaE or am I still not being clear?
00:50 VanessaE no silly
00:50 VanessaE look
00:50 Jordach VanessaE, have you seen the effects of combining 16x with 32x?
00:50 VanessaE *facepalm*
00:51 Jordach the pixels go to the top left corner
00:51 VanessaE then auto-scale the image, derp
00:51 VanessaE it's not that hard to figure out the scale factor
00:51 VanessaE 2x, 3x, 4x...
00:51 Jordach VanessaE, again: you'd have to change the current skin format to fix it
00:51 VanessaE and if it don't fit, crop the fucker
00:51 VanessaE no you wouldn't
00:51 VanessaE why aren't you listening to me???
00:51 VanessaE fuck!
00:51 VanessaE all right look
00:51 VanessaE and fucking listen
00:51 Jordach diagrams would be more useful
00:52 VanessaE load the skin image.  it's what, 128x64 right?
00:52 VanessaE normally I mean
00:52 VanessaE or 62x32
00:52 Jordach 64x32
00:52 VanessaE er 64x32
00:52 VanessaE right ok let's just for the damn moment assume it's a 64x32 skin
00:52 VanessaE read file.
00:52 VanessaE expand image canvas to 72x32.
00:52 VanessaE read cape file
00:53 EvergreenTree ^ good solution
00:53 VanessaE paste cape file into the empty space on the right.
00:53 Jordach VanessaE, the engine cannot scale image files
00:53 VanessaE bullshit
00:53 VanessaE scale it MANUALLY then
00:53 Jordach VanessaE, imagemagick or bust
00:53 VanessaE if you can read an image at all, you can scale it by 2x, 3x, 4x... etc
00:53 VanessaE I'm not talking Lanczos here
00:53 Jordach and funnily enough, os.execute won't handle windows at all
00:53 VanessaE I'm talking straight factored scaling
00:53 VanessaE nearest neighbor
00:54 Jordach VanessaE, see what the engine does to oddly scaled images
00:54 VanessaE NO!
00:54 Jordach when doing t1^t2
00:54 VanessaE LISTEN TO ME DAMN IT
00:54 Jordach so you make more effort in a slow enging with Lua, than make a more compact and faster fix
00:54 Enke joined #minetest
00:54 EvergreenTree o/
00:54 EvergreenTree Sheesh, biggest argument in a while
00:55 Jordach VanessaE, i want to fucking fix the skinning system once and for all
00:55 VanessaE scale it EXACTLY to 2x or 3x or 4x or whatever size it takes to make the cape exactly fill or OVER fill the empty space you opened to the right of the skin image when you expanded the canvas (note:  I said EXPAND THE CANVAS, NOT scale the image).
00:55 Jordach by obliterating the MC FORMAT
00:55 VanessaE you will NEVER obliterate the MC format.
00:55 Jordach VanessaE, bullshit
00:55 VanessaE it's a done deal, we're stuck with it.
00:55 Jordach see nodetopia
00:55 VanessaE now re-read what I said
00:56 Jordach and?
00:56 Jordach keeping current standards will only get trampled on again, and again
00:57 Jordach this is why shit's not going anywhere
00:57 EvergreenTree Breaking compatability with MC is a good thing, makes people actually do some work to get skind they want
00:57 EvergreenTree :P
00:57 Jordach i want to make a goddamn simple format that anyone can pick up
00:57 Jordach and make it properly 64^2
00:57 Sokomine joined #minetest
00:58 us-0gb I agree. Minecraft has a stupid skin format. We can't even use a different image for each arm/leg, for goodness sake.
00:58 Jordach i spent a few hours wrangling with the 1.8 format and found you HAVE TO FLIP THE OPPOSITE ARM
00:58 VanessaE load the skin image, expand the width of the canvas by exactly 12.5 percent (8 pixels for a 64px skin, 16 pixels for a 128px skin, etc).  Don't scale the image, just adjust the size of the canvas and shove the skin over to the far let.  Load the cape file.  Do a nearest-neighbor scale up by precisely 2x, 3x, 4x whatever it takes to fill the space you opened and "paste" it into the empty space on the right.  Pass the resultant image to the engine
00:58 VanessaE to wrap it around the player model.
00:58 VanessaE there.
00:58 VanessaE if you'd just to THAT you wouldn't have to fuck with materials, new formats, etc.
00:59 Jordach VanessaE, mismatched cape files
00:59 Jordach eg, wrong size with wrong skin
00:59 VanessaE mismatched?  scale up until it overflows the skin file.  sucks to be the user who picked the wrong cape file to go with their skin.
00:59 VanessaE scale it by exactly 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x. 547854x
00:59 VanessaE whatever exact factor it takes
01:00 Jordach if you let me rip down the "golden parchment" of bullshit and make a better one - you'll all be better OFF
01:00 VanessaE do some basic math to find the right factor, scale it to that, let it overflow.
01:00 VanessaE crop it off, pass the result to the model wrapper
01:00 Jordach and while i'm there, the skin fill should have triple layers FOR ARMOUR
01:00 VanessaE *facepalm*
01:00 VanessaE you're trying to compete with a system that will KICK OUR ASSES and you know it.
01:01 Jordach VanessaE, i can produce a small blender game engine app for painting the skin
01:01 Jordach ALLOWING YOU to use the new format but use the old model as a guide
01:01 VanessaE ok, that's three of us.  what about the average nitwit out there who can't even figure out how to GET a skin, much less how to MAKE one?
01:02 Jordach i want people to use the engine without having to get into the gritty details about pixel art and other shit
01:02 Jordach make it easy for the bovines
01:02 Jordach centralised skin systems would also clear this up too
01:02 VanessaE they would
01:02 VanessaE but you forget:
01:03 VanessaE if you do that, i can't tell the user "just google it and give me a link"
01:03 Jordach VanessaE, if you dumb someone down enough, they're fucking useless
01:03 VanessaE yeah I know
01:03 Jordach anyone using windows is exactly like that
01:03 Jordach force the herd into the gates
01:04 Jordach because fart assing around with mathematically intense operations will again, slow down the engine
01:05 VanessaE um
01:05 Jordach and on a large populous server, you definitely don't want that
01:06 VanessaE we're talking about canvas size + 12.5%, copy, scale 2x/3x/4x/..., paste, crop...
01:06 VanessaE all of these operations, combined, would only take a matter of a few milliseconds on even the slowest box.
01:06 Jordach VanessaE, might be invisible to a bovine, pain in the fucking ass to maintain with engine bugfixes
01:07 Jordach and if we switch skin formats, (1.8) that work is for fucking nothing
01:07 VanessaE so, rather than the engine doing this in a few milliseconds, I have to spend hours?
01:07 VanessaE FUCK THAT
01:08 VanessaE well then fix the fucking Materials feature
01:08 Jordach so you're going to build a graphics lib to do all the heavy lifting
01:08 VanessaE what you're doing is patently wrong here
01:08 Jordach which depends on irrlicht not breaking, and minetest engine not breaking
01:08 VanessaE I can't stress that enough
01:08 Jordach VanessaE, rules and politicians must always be changed
01:09 us-0gb What is wrong? Changing the skin format?
01:09 Jordach us-0gb, capes got intergrated
01:09 VanessaE us-0gb: Jordach is trying to add to the Minecraft skin format.
01:09 VanessaE Jordach: you can't change the rules if you're not the one writing them to begin with
01:09 Jordach VanessaE, try forking, i think you've heard of it
01:09 us-0gb The Minecraft skin format needs to be dropped entirely, not modified.
01:10 us-0gb Personally, I'm going ack to 2D skins untill we have a decent skin format.
01:10 VanessaE why bother to fork?
01:10 VanessaE that would be an even bigger waste of effort than this discussion
01:10 Jordach us-0gb, i've explained clearly that making a new style format that users do not have to look at (and just paint the model) to make their own skin
01:11 Jordach and all you'd need is a bit of cURL to upload them somewhere
01:11 us-0gb That would be great Jordach, assuming it your new format is a good one.
01:12 Jordach us-0gb, increase size to 128^2
01:12 Jordach have a similar, but NOT identical format to mc
01:12 Jordach so force people from using the old skins into the new type
01:12 us-0gb Jordach, is the same image used for both arms and both legs? That's the main issue I have with Minecraft's format.
01:13 Jordach us-0gb, no, with that amount of space, you could have at least enough space to upgrade the model
01:13 us-0gb Awesome. I'm 100% behind you then.
01:13 Jordach an actual clothes layer, a third for armour, separated arms / legs, capes, other stuff to come
01:14 us-0gb Seems a bit complex, but assuming it renders quickly, it would have plenty of room for creativity.
01:15 us-0gb Why not use both skin formats? Then everyone can be happy.
01:15 us-0gb Multiple models can be included.
01:15 Jordach what's 96 triangles going to make a fucking difference with on any hardware
01:16 us-0gb VanessaE will be able to use the Minecraft skins, you and I will be able to use your model. On the same servers.
01:16 Jordach glxgears has more fucking triangles than the player model
01:17 VanessaE us-0gb: the problem is we already tell people that we use the Minecraft skin format.  We CAN'T reasonably change that now.  The proper way forward is to fix the materials system and put capes and whatever else is not supported in Minecraft into their own separate file(s)
01:18 us-0gb VanessaE, What do we do about the fact that the Minecraft skins force both arms and legs to match?
01:19 us-0gb That is a serious flaw.
01:19 Jordach we're limiting ourselves to an arbitrary format that is subject to CHANGE
01:19 VanessaE us-0gb: put alternate arms and legs into the extra file?
01:19 VanessaE that's why I added "and whatever else"
01:19 Jordach ignore THAT GAME and go as you think is right
01:20 Jordach and if it flops, "so what" you've learned from that
01:20 VanessaE e.g. capes, left arm/leg, whatever else isn't in the standard player skin
01:20 Jordach VanessaE, again, you think other users will understand that shit
01:21 Jordach THEY WON'T
01:21 VanessaE Jordach: what happened to them just painting in an editor?
01:21 Jordach they will expect it in ONE FILE
01:21 VanessaE I'm talking about the base file format.
01:21 us-0gb Okay, so the main issue is whether to keep legacy compatibility with Minecraft. We don't have Minecraft map compatibility, or even texture pack compatibility. It would be arbitrary to go out of our way for skin compatibility.
01:21 Jordach yes, and by making the other arm and leg and cape into a new file you make the users confused on how it wors
01:21 Jordach works*
01:22 VanessaE well duh, the answer is simple:  64x48.  that is, if the file is 4:3 aspect, it's a minetest skin with the extra bits added below the Minecraft stuff.
01:22 VanessaE extra arm, leg, cape textures.
01:22 Jordach the multiplayer users want this: 1) to play the damn game 2) have a nice simple skin 3) find freedom
01:22 VanessaE if it's 2:1 or 1:1 it's Minecraft's format.
01:22 VanessaE simple.
01:22 VanessaE there
01:22 VanessaE see?
01:22 VanessaE I solved it.
01:22 us-0gb Both arms and both legs need to be in the same file. It's the only thing that makes sense. Other things might be in an extension file, but we've already broken compatibility at that point.
01:22 VanessaE herp fucking derp.
01:23 VanessaE 64x48 or you know, however many extra pixels you need.  maybe it's 16, maybe it's 12.  whatever.
01:23 Jordach VanessaE, apple broke their own fucking laws with the iPhone 5, the iMac, OS X
01:23 VanessaE we are not Apple.
01:23 Jordach CHANGE IS FUCKING NECESSARY
01:23 VanessaE Apple can do that.
01:23 VanessaE SO I JUST PROPOSED IT!
01:23 EvergreenTree Some change isn't
01:24 VanessaE JESUS H FUCKING CHRIST IN A CARTOON
01:24 VanessaE WHY CAN'T YOU LISTEN
01:24 Jordach otherwise you're going to get buried in the fucking sand
01:24 VanessaE ok look
01:24 VanessaE I will say it AGIN
01:24 VanessaE AGAIN8
01:24 VanessaE ...
01:24 VanessaE ONE file.
01:24 VanessaE and only one.
01:24 VanessaE 64x48 pixels.
01:24 VanessaE the top 32 pixels are a standard Minecraft skin.  100% identical in every respect.
01:24 Jordach VanessaE, 128^2 would be better, in case in future someone decides a new part is better
01:25 EvergreenTree Jordach: This is a good solution for the moment
01:25 VanessaE the next 12 or 16 pixels or whatever would be for extra arm, leg, and cape images.
01:25 EvergreenTree we don't need to futureproof
01:25 Jordach EvergreenTree, us lot might not be here in 3 years
01:25 Jordach newer developers might need the extra space
01:25 EvergreenTree and why are we limiting ourselves to MC's standards?
01:26 EvergreenTree just to make space for newbies?
01:26 VanessaE then you detect the image format.  if it's roughly 4:3 aspect, it's a Minetest skin.  if it's 2:1 aspect, it's Minecraft standard.  if it's 1:1 aspect, it's Minecraft's "clothing" format.
01:26 VanessaE EvergreenTree: exactly.
01:26 VanessaE have you ever had to deal with noobs?
01:26 EvergreenTree YEs
01:26 VanessaE I mean the glut of them I get every day?
01:26 EvergreenTree On redcrab, on the forums, on your servers
01:26 VanessaE :)
01:27 VanessaE exactly.
01:27 VanessaE then you should know
01:27 VanessaE they WILL NOT CHANGE
01:27 Jordach VanessaE, i'm just showing you how arrogant americans can be
01:27 EvergreenTree bleh
01:27 Jordach i'm playing by arrogant rules
01:27 EvergreenTree brb
01:27 VanessaE Jordach:  some americans can be, but some others can be also.........
01:28 Jordach i'd rather knock down the fucking Empire State and build a modern styled one in place of it
01:28 VanessaE if you try to go up against MC and compete, you will be pounded right down into the ground.
01:28 Jordach the old MUST CRUMBLE away
01:28 Jordach living in the past will be your end
01:28 VanessaE so rather than try to change their format, invent a new one that's easy to detect in software AND THAT WON'T INTERFERE
01:29 VanessaE that's the key right there
01:29 Jordach so you need three different player models that have an identical mesh
01:29 VanessaE DON'T INTERFERE with the old stuff
01:29 us-0gb At the point the skin is being used in MineTEST, we're already going against MineCRAFT.
01:29 Jordach pilzadam will go fucking apeshit over that
01:29 VanessaE us-0gb: but we're able to use something that Minecraft made popular for us - we let them do the hard work already
01:30 VanessaE what Jordach proposes to do is try to turn that around, and it WILL fail.
01:30 VanessaE Mojang has infinite resources and they WILL destroy us if they want to
01:30 Jordach so you'd rather make people more lazy than they already ae
01:30 us-0gb VanessaE, But they're doing it wrong. Sure, we get their work, but their work is flawed.
01:30 Jordach are*
01:30 us-0gb That skin format is problematic.
01:30 VanessaE us-0gb: I know they're doing it wrong
01:30 VanessaE us-0gb: but I just proposed a solution and no one is listening.
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01:31 VanessaE a perfect solution that solves all the problems in one step.
01:31 us-0gb VanessaE, You're sugesting some sort of autodetect and multiple meshes.
01:31 VanessaE no duplicated work, no duplicated models, no holding-over of old formats.
01:31 VanessaE no, no, no, and no.  in that order.
01:31 Jordach sure users won't understand the new format
01:31 Jordach but they will in time
01:31 VanessaE Jordach: what happened to "users don't need to look at the file"?
01:32 Jordach there will be a need growing until someone goes out and does it
01:33 VanessaE us-0gb: what I am proposing is exactly one, single monolithic model that covers all three use-cases, and proper handling of the UV maps that get wrapped around it.  detect which kind of texture/skin format is being used, cut it apart as needed, and wrap it around properly.
01:33 VanessaE one model file, one skin file.
01:34 Jordach VanessaE, you want the tool that does everything, but idiots can't use it for one use
01:34 VanessaE whether that skin file is a 64x32 standard MC skin, a 64x44 (64x32+an extra 12 pixels below that to add more leg/arm/cape images) "extended" Minetest skin, or a 64x64 Minecraft 1.8 "clothing" skin
01:34 VanessaE you can easily detect which skin format is being requested by just computing the aspect ratio.
01:34 us-0gb VanessaE, That model sounds like a very hacky one.
01:35 VanessaE us-0gb: why?  it's a caped, clothed player model.  what you put on it depends on what the skin file has in it.
01:35 Jordach VanessaE, theory doesn't work until tested
01:35 Jordach go on, make your own fucking format
01:35 Jordach and i'll go make mine
01:35 VanessaE Jordach: then test it.  You're the one wanting to define a new format.
01:36 VanessaE I'm trying to propose HOW that format should be done in a way that won't break everyone else's setups.
01:36 us-0gb VanessaE, It might sound hacky to me because I don't understand the low-level details. Disregard the hacky part.
01:39 Jordach VanessaE, a more intelligent format would be the way forward, but using maths to calculate what the skin is and what not
01:39 Jordach you're missing the worst point
01:39 Jordach UV unwraps only work on the SAME 2:1 scale they were unwrapped at
01:39 Jordach so if you were to use the 2:1, 1:1 and 3:1, skins would literally look like shit
01:40 Jordach (think atari 2600)
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01:40 Jordach or stretching an image like 8x16 into 16^2
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01:41 iluvpeeps7 Vanessa?
01:41 iluvpeeps7 are you on
01:41 Jordach she's mad bro
01:41 iluvpeeps7 why
01:42 Jordach major contest of skin formats
01:42 iluvpeeps7 oh yeah
01:42 Jordach nearly two hours of combat
01:42 iluvpeeps7 alot of people were spamming her with websites
01:42 iluvpeeps7 i feel bad for her
01:42 iluvpeeps7 Jordach
01:42 iluvpeeps7 can you do me a favor..
01:42 Jordach iluvpeeps7, that's not the problem, the problem is, we're stuck with a new impending format
01:43 iluvpeeps7 can you send me  a link to her IRC channel
01:43 iluvpeeps7 oh
01:43 Jordach which isn't the one you're used to
01:43 iluvpeeps7 this
01:43 Jordach vanessa wants it the old way, while the new one will fix many problems
01:43 iluvpeeps7 i use this because i dont know her server IRC
01:43 EvergreenTree Jordach: Stop trying to bend people to your will
01:43 EvergreenTree :P
01:44 iluvpeeps7 can you send me the link to her IRC channel>
01:44 Jordach BRRM BRRM BRRM goes the chainsaw
01:44 iluvpeeps7 ?*
01:44 EvergreenTree iluvpeeps7: Don't listen until you hear both sides of the argument
01:44 iluvpeeps7 ok
01:44 EvergreenTree anyway, you're on the wrong network
01:44 iluvpeeps7 any website...
01:44 iluvpeeps7 i know
01:44 EvergreenTree I think you're on freenode
01:44 iluvpeeps7 i dont know the channel
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01:44 iluvpeeps7 no im on #minetest
01:44 iluvpeeps7 i want to join her server IRC whats her channel?
01:44 EvergreenTree This is #minetest, you're just on the wrong network
01:44 iluvpeeps7 then what is the channel
01:45 EvergreenTree Channels and networks are different things
01:45 iluvpeeps7 ?
01:45 iluvpeeps7 but it says nickname and under it it says channel
01:45 iluvpeeps7 i just want to join the server IRC but how?>
01:45 EvergreenTree it's #minetest on horus.inchra.net
01:45 EvergreenTree I'm not sure how to do it on kiwiirc
01:46 iluvpeeps7 ok brb
01:46 EvergreenTree Can someone more experienced with this sort of thing help?
01:46 Jordach hold on
01:46 Jordach these are the settings: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage​/screenshot-080214-014619.php
01:47 us-0gb EvergreenTree, Jordach is right though.
01:47 EvergreenTree Yes, I know
01:48 EvergreenTree I'm just stating that you don't need to drag someone who doesn't even care into this discussion
01:48 Jordach [01:22:24] <Jordach> the multiplayer users want this: 1) to play the damn game 2) have a nice simple skin 3) find freedom <- did anyone notice that peeps didn't care about the impending doom for current skins
01:48 Jordach that line is what THEY WANT
01:48 EvergreenTree And those users can barely figure out how to do it the way it is
01:49 Jordach so we've got a half finished wall
01:49 EvergreenTree hm
01:49 Jordach made of mud
01:49 Jordach and one that can be made from weatherproof brick
01:49 Jordach which side of it would you want to be on when it rains?
01:50 EvergreenTree I am not arguing about which solution is better
01:50 Jordach 01:50am
01:50 Jordach i'm going to need my sleep
01:51 EvergreenTree the go sleep
01:51 EvergreenTree :P
01:51 EvergreenTree *then
01:51 Jordach now this is when i invent the perfect design
01:51 VanessaE there.
01:51 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest​_game/pull/201#issuecomment-34525006
01:51 VanessaE sorry he missed it.
01:51 VanessaE by just seconds.
01:51 us-0gb Sure you are.
01:51 us-0gb Oh, wait. I misunderstood.
01:52 us-0gb Disregard my accusatory comment.
01:52 * us-0gb 's attention is just in too many places at once
01:53 VanessaE read the post I just linked
01:53 EvergreenTree That happens sometimes
01:53 VanessaE I think it explains it nice and clearly.
01:53 EvergreenTree I think having seperate files for different layers of armor/clothing is a good idea
01:56 VanessaE there, and linked the post to an image that actually describes the multi-layer format.
01:56 us-0gb I still disagree with multiformat approach. However, case "b" covers my use case, so I'll just let you people figgure out what direction you want to take the skin formats. A single format though would be much cleaner.
01:57 us-0gb For example, only using format c.
01:58 VanessaE right
01:58 VanessaE format C would cover that problem
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02:12 VanessaE the problem with format C though is, it still doesn't support those capes.
02:14 VanessaE there, re-read the comment.
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02:15 VanessaE wait, not done.
02:16 VanessaE there.  Now I'm done, yours is use-case c now :)
02:16 VanessaE this added in a mention for the idea of loading two files, since the 1.8 format doesn't have a cape.
02:19 us-0gb My use case is whichever doesn't use the same image for both arms/legs, so it's both B and C.
02:20 VanessaE right
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02:27 EvergreenTree Hi OldCoder
02:29 paramat joined #minetest
02:34 VanessaE there.
02:34 VanessaE a quick adjustment to my servers/games buildbot and taoki's fixed player model is put into place.
02:36 Hirato joined #minetest
02:36 VanessaE (only have to worry about it on Vanilla, the other servers either have non-changeable player skins, or the models already lack capes, or they're 2d as on Nostalgia)
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02:44 * EvergreenTree is working on his youtube intro
02:48 paramat capes ... see what celeron has to say, since he's 'audiovisuals' manager. im concerned about extra processing when not using a cape ... ? :)
02:49 VanessaE re-read my comment on the pull, I've been revising it, trying to get what I wanted to say 'right'.
02:49 paramat i feel MCentricism is uncool, buying popularity by having MCompatibility =P
02:49 paramat ok
02:50 VanessaE there's a difference between "buying" popularity, and knowing when not to try to fight.  it'd be like trying to fight a tsunami when all you have is a bucket.
02:50 VanessaE it's a fight we cannot, so we would be better off just adapting.
02:50 VanessaE cannot win*
02:52 paramat hm ... no one else feels capes are too MC/Minecon exclusive to be in core MT? ;)
02:53 VanessaE I don't care about capes either way.  I just care about random commits breaking my servers.
02:53 VanessaE this commit will break 75% of my users' skins.
02:54 VanessaE to counter, I grabbed taoki's model file as suggested and will just use that.
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04:50 Sokomine_ Hey Guys
04:53 Miner_48er hi
05:09 Angelrose joined #minetest
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05:19 us-0gb For some reason, Minetest is not sending my password to servers. I don't know why not, but I can't even log into my own server.
05:20 ShadowNinja us-0gb: Sounds like sapier messed something up.
05:20 us-0gb In 0.4.9 stable?
05:21 us-0gb I didn't have this issue from my 64 bit machine, but I do from the 32 bit one.
05:21 us-0gb I don't know if that's related.
05:21 ShadowNinja us-0gb: Yes, 0.4.9+ may have net issues.
05:22 ShadowNinja Tell sapier, although it may be fixed now.
05:25 us-0gb Alright. I'll tell him when I see him.
05:26 us-0gb I also found this machine runs Minetest even worse than my last machine - though it runs SuperTux better.
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05:44 * Guest98666 just noticed the last three characters of his name
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08:27 reactor EHLO
08:28 reactor Are there any general anti-griefing guidelines?
08:29 reactor Most people joining my server in past 24 hours seem to do nothing but mess up the spawn area.
08:29 us_0gb joined #minetest
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09:11 CheapSeth reactor: I don't know, but tell me if you find, I'm interested in hosting my own server
09:16 PenguinDad (O_O_O)
09:16 reactor Щ_Щ_Щ
09:17 PenguinDad :D
09:22 Calinou there are no guidelines.
09:23 bas080 joined #minetest
09:30 * sfan5 puts a kitten on reactor's head
09:31 reactor *sneeze*
09:31 * reactor throws the kitten at sfan5's face.
09:31 reactor s/at/in/
09:32 * sfan5 gives reactor a kitten
09:32 Donillo joined #minetest
09:33 * reactor puts the kitten in a box.
09:33 reactor Schroedinger's. Shall we?
09:37 sfan5 nah
09:39 reactor Why not?
09:39 sfan5 because the kitten is innocent
09:41 reactor But it is imaginary.
09:41 reactor And appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy.
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10:51 reactor What's the meaning of -m32 in LDFLAGS?
10:52 Jordach hey VanessaE, suck it: https://forum.minetest.net/vie​wtopic.php?pid=128988#p128988
10:52 Jordach INVALID SKINS if they have bad pixels
10:53 reactor Oh, 32 bit.
10:53 reactor Why would I need that on a 64-bit OS?
10:53 reactor ...is it generally good to deny no-password logins?
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10:55 markveidemanis Hello
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11:03 reactor Elo.
11:04 markveidemanis howyadoin
11:05 reactor Fine.
11:14 Jordach VanessaE, when your ass gets out of bed: zipball the entire skins dir
11:16 Jordach i will destructively remove bad pixels
11:17 reactor Bad pixels?
11:18 Jordach reactor, dynamic capes got added last night
11:18 reactor ...are there any drawbacks of LuaJIT?
11:18 reactor OH.
11:18 reactor s/H/h/
11:18 reactor What does that mean? Skin files started including cape texture?
11:20 Jordach yes
11:23 reactor And skin format is still similar to Minecraft?
11:23 reactor And Minecraft skins typically store junk data there?
11:30 Jordach yeah
11:31 reactor "mtskinlint"
11:32 reactor Guess it can be done in sh, using batch processing programs.
11:33 Jordach yeah
11:33 Jordach even imagemagick allows doing that
11:33 Jordach and i got two hours of bitching for it :)
11:33 reactor imagemagick _is_ batch processing software
11:34 reactor ...not exactly "lint", as it wouldn't keep correct capes
11:35 reactor there is no way to detect if it's correct
11:35 reactor ...though if it's a rectangle surrounded by transparency, it is likely to be a cape.
11:36 ImQ009 joined #minetest
11:40 reactor What the hell, minetestserver compiled with luajit does not do anything but putting newlines in its log!
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11:55 PilzAdam Hello everyone!
11:56 reactor EHLO
12:03 PilzAdam quote of the day: "problem.zip"
12:05 reactor ?!
12:06 PenguinDad "problem.zip" :D
12:06 reactor problem.tar.bz2
12:07 reactor Why does LUAJIT-enabled server crash while loading certain map?
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12:12 Megaf Morning all
12:12 reactor Mowing.
12:20 reactor Seriously, what's the big deal about loading an existing world?
12:20 reactor It suddenly is unable to "bind to the address".
12:21 reactor What? A map being loaded prevents it from binding to the port? Where's logic in that?!
12:30 Jordach reactor, i'm going to get a nice shiny Core i5 machine soon
12:30 reactor Good.
12:30 Jordach might have Windows 8; will be flashed with Kubuntu
12:30 reactor I care.
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12:34 markveidemanis reactor: use ctrl+c to close instead of ctrl+z
12:34 markveidemanis I tried what you have, that was the issue on closing the game
12:35 reactor markveidemanis: I know what key means what.
12:35 reactor But thanks for the information.
12:35 markveidemanis I guess you know more than me but ctrl c probably closes the socket
12:35 reactor ...I wonder who would ever use ^Z to terminate.
12:36 reactor Because on most systems, it means "suspend".
12:47 markveidemanis I use it sometimes
12:47 markveidemanis If something doesnt work, i mash ^ and ZXC
12:47 reactor Anyone who has read any UNIX introduction from past two decades should know that.
12:51 markveidemanis Anyone seen Ragnar?
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13:14 reactor Totally unreasonable.
13:14 reactor As soon as I change map.sqlite to my map, the server refuses to start.
13:14 reactor Without LuaJIT, there wasn't any problem like that.
13:15 PilzAdam reactor, are you using latest git?
13:15 reactor Yes.
13:16 reactor Client works, singleplayer works with that very map. Server fails.
13:16 PilzAdam have you set bind_adress in minetest.conf?
13:16 reactor Yes.
13:16 PilzAdam to what?
13:16 reactor It works if I remove all worlds.
13:17 reactor bind_address = 192.168.0.5
13:17 reactor The address assigned to that system.
13:18 reactor Wait a second...
13:18 reactor No, it was actually commented, somehow.
13:19 reactor Weird, for a long time it used to work with the setting commented.
13:21 markveidemanis Try comparing your local copy map size with the one on the server
13:23 reactor The problem's been solved.
13:24 reactor By uncommenting the bind_address.
13:24 reactor PilzAdam: thank you.
13:24 PilzAdam !next
13:24 MinetestBot Another satisfied customer. Next!
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13:59 markveidemanis !lastseen Ragnar
14:01 PenguinDad ~seen Ragnar
14:01 ShadowBot PenguinDad: I haven't seen Ragnar in #minetest.
14:01 PenguinDad ^markveidemanis
14:07 PilzAdam ~meow
14:07 PilzAdam :-/
14:07 sfan5 wtf
14:08 sfan5 does really nobody know MinetestBot's syntax?
14:08 PilzAdam sfan5, ShadowBot is so much cooler
14:09 sfan5 no
14:09 PilzAdam o
14:09 PilzAdam k
14:09 PilzAdam !meow
14:10 * sfan5 gives PilzAdam a kitten
14:10 PilzAdam <3
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14:14 markveidemanis ~seen RagnarLaud
14:14 ShadowBot markveidemanis: I saw RagnarLaud in #minetest 3 days, 23 hours, 48 minutes, and 23 seconds ago saying ":)".
14:14 markveidemanis aha
14:20 SirDigby :)
14:21 SirDigby ~seen SirDigby83
14:21 ShadowBot SirDigby: I haven't seen SirDigby83 in #minetest.
14:21 SirDigby :(
14:21 SirDigby ~seen SirDigby
14:21 ShadowBot SirDigby: I saw SirDigby in #minetest 11 seconds ago saying ":(".
14:21 reactor_ joined #minetest
14:21 SirDigby :)
14:25 Jordach ~seen Your_Mom
14:25 ShadowBot Jordach: I haven't seen Your_Mom in #minetest.
14:25 Jordach </trollface>
14:27 john_minetest joined #minetest
14:27 john_minetest Hello everypony
14:28 reactor_ Hello every_.
14:29 * sfan5 gives john_minetest a kitten
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14:31 * reactor_ snatches the kitten and puts it in the box.
14:31 reactor_ Mine!
14:31 markveidemanis ~seen Trolololo
14:31 ShadowBot markveidemanis: I haven't seen Trolololo in #minetest.
14:31 reactor_ For science, you allergene.
14:31 markveidemanis Wierd, must me
14:31 reactor_ !seen #minetest
14:31 MinetestBot reactor_: Sorry, I haven't seen #minetest around.
14:32 reactor_ ~seen #minetest
14:32 ShadowBot reactor_: seen [channel] <nick>
14:32 markveidemanis #minetest :Erroneous Nickname
14:32 reactor_ ~seen #minetest #minetest
14:32 ShadowBot reactor_: Error: '#minetest' is not a valid nick.
14:32 reactor_ Grr.
14:32 reactor_ ~seen #minetest minetest
14:32 ShadowBot reactor_: I haven't seen minetest in #minetest.
14:32 reactor_ That's what I mean.
14:32 PenguinDad ~seen kittens
14:32 ShadowBot PenguinDad: I haven't seen kittens in #minetest.
14:33 SirDigby ~seen puppy bowl
14:33 markveidemanis ~seen any kittens
14:33 ShadowBot SirDigby: seen [channel] <nick>
14:33 ShadowBot markveidemanis: seen [channel] <nick>
14:33 PenguinDad :(
14:33 SirDigby :(
14:33 markveidemanis ~25MB
14:33 PilzAdam I guess we should all stop abusing the bots now
14:33 markveidemanis Agreed.
14:33 SirDigby i miss the puppy bowl :(
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14:38 cosarara Hi!, are there any public builds of the android port of minetest?
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14:42 john_minetest ~seen reactor
14:42 ShadowBot john_minetest: I saw reactor in #minetest 1 hour, 18 minutes, and 5 seconds ago saying "PilzAdam: thank you.".
14:42 reactor_ Hoe funny.
14:42 john_minetest ~seen john_minetest
14:42 ShadowBot john_minetest: I saw john_minetest in #minetest 13 seconds ago saying "~seen reactor".
14:42 reactor_ s/oe/ow
14:42 john_minetest lol
14:43 john_minetest ~seen ShadowBot
14:43 ShadowBot john_minetest: I haven't seen ShadowBot in #minetest.
14:43 proller joined #minetest
14:43 john_minetest noooo!
14:43 john_minetest ShadowBot has gone missing!
14:43 testeree i always thought there was only open alternative to minecraft clone? apparently now there are two https://github.com/fogleman/Craft . any thoughts on the scope of this new project? btw is there any discussion thread comparing it with minetest design?
14:43 sfan5 !seen ShadowBot
14:43 MinetestBot sfan5: shadowbot was last seen at 2014-02-08 14:43:03 UTC on #minetest
14:43 john_minetest testeree: Craft is nice but not really developed yet.
14:43 john_minetest Only a few blocks, no animations, no servers and clients.
14:44 testeree john_minetest, performance wise ?
14:44 john_minetest Surely better than minetest. Modding capabilities are resource eaters.
14:45 john_minetest There is "manic digger", another mining game.
14:45 john_minetest But it is not really cool.
14:45 reactor_ Minetest is not very bad performance-wise, especially compared to Minecraft.
14:46 testeree i believe minecraft is shit having used java to develop :P
14:48 john_minetest <irony> But java is sooo cool! It runs on every platform and is used everywhere! </irony>
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14:48 reactor_ Yeah.
14:49 reactor_ Whatever is bad, becomes popular.
14:49 john_minetest java is so overhyped.
14:49 reactor_ Smoking, alcohol, IBM PC, Windows, Java.
14:49 john_minetest And it can be used on the internet. For applets. Those that aren't supported by most browsers anymore and blocked by most virus programs.
14:50 testeree :D
14:50 sfan5 john_minetest: that's how companies notice their product is shit
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14:53 cosarara sfan5, are there public builds of the android branch?
14:54 sfan5 which android branch?
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14:54 cosarara lol https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/tree/android_new
14:54 sfan5 sfan/minetest/android_new ?
14:54 sfan5 ah.
14:55 sfan5 no
14:55 sfan5 but if you want you can have the one I currently have
14:55 sfan5 but it is nowhere near finished
14:56 cosarara Well I wanted to try it, but for now I haven't been able to compile irrlicht
14:56 sfan5 which errors do you get?
14:57 cosarara no include path in which to search for limits.h
14:57 sfan5 did you follow http://dev.minetest.net/Android ?
14:57 cosarara I got android-ndk-crystax from a package in Arch's AUR
14:58 cosarara I guess I'll have to mess with the library/include paths a bit
14:58 sfan5 hm
14:58 sfan5 output of '' which arm-linux-androideabi-gcc ''
14:58 sfan5 ?
14:58 cosarara /opt/android-ndk-crystax/toolchains/ar​m-linux-androideabi-4.6.3/prebuilt/lin​ux-x86/bin//arm-linux-androideabi-gcc
14:59 cosarara That double // is my fault
14:59 sfan5 do you have a 32bit os or why are you using a 32bit toolchain?
14:59 cosarara I didn't notice :P
15:00 sfan5 which android platform does the toolchain target?
15:01 cosarara androideabi-4.6.3?
15:01 sfan5 no
15:01 sfan5 a target is something like android-9 or android-14
15:02 sfan5 oh god what
15:02 sfan5 who created a pkgbuild this bad?
15:02 cosarara In /opt/android-ndk-crystax/platforms I have android-3, 4, 5, 8 9 and 14
15:03 sfan5 ah
15:03 sfan5 thats the project
15:03 sfan5 problem*
15:03 sfan5 the package just copies the ndk to /opt/android-ndk-crystax
15:03 cosarara Yep
15:04 sfan5 it doesn't actually make a standalone toolchain
15:04 SirDigby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOND94mmcVo
15:05 sfan5 dl http://www.crystax.net/download/android​-ndk-r8-crystax-1-linux-x86_64.tar.bz2 and use build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh --platform=android-14 --install-dir=/opt/android-toolchain
15:06 sfan5 cosarara: /\
15:07 cosarara ok
15:15 cosarara it's built fine now, thanks
15:19 SirDigby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1ZAXYyxd08
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15:25 reactor "abmin"
15:25 cosarara sfan5, cmake can't find jpeg
15:26 sfan5 cosarara: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com​/u/30267315/android-libs.tar.bz2
15:28 Jordach oi VanessaE
15:28 Jordach i might have found a cape soloution
15:30 reactor Got packet command: 55 for peer id 5 but client isn't active yet. Dropping packet
15:30 reactor Eh?
15:30 Jordach my revolves around using addi's database and dynamic texture uploads
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15:34 Jordach VanessaE, there is a goddamn simple fix: dynamically update a texture when it's being painted and allow saving to addi's database
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15:56 hmmmm hey sfan5, how did you intend to have the custom formspec-defined player list work at all?  did you try to make the listbox the parent window?  did you have something in mind or did you just figure, "ah it'd be cool if this could be customizable"
15:56 sfan5 hmmmm: I tried looking at places where formspec is used
15:57 hmmmm yeah, I was trying to fix it a while back but then I realized the entire concept of what you're doing doesn't really make sense
15:58 sfan5 please tell me what was wrong then
15:58 hmmmm i think what you may have intended was to have the entire minetest window be the parent window for the formspec
15:58 hmmmm but
15:58 hmmmm that's just not possible
15:58 hmmmm if it were then we'd use that for the hud
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15:58 hmmmm but you can't have a listbox control be the parent window of other irrlicht controls
15:58 hmmmm it just doesn't work
16:00 hmmmm so if it's the case that formspec just doesn't work out in this situation, you'd have to remove it, which means that entire commit can't be done
16:00 hmmmm and it's back to the original one
16:00 sfan5 :-/
16:00 CheapSeth Is thre a wrapper or something to make mods in python?
16:00 CheapSeth *there
16:00 hmmmm the reason i bring this up is because people are looking for the next version soon and that's a feature i wanted to have in 0.4.9, but that didn't happen
16:01 hmmmm it'd be really good if there could be some closure on it
16:01 sfan5 CheapSeth: no
16:01 CheapSeth D:
16:01 sfan5 hmmmm: would it work to just use a different irrlicht gui object as parent?
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16:02 CheapSeth Δ
16:04 hmmmm you'd have to make a main window, and it'd have to have transparency like the main menu window
16:04 hmmmm and you'd have to have a way of specifying which formspec control is the special listbox where the player names go
16:04 hmmmm this really is not doable without client side scripting... it'd probably be a better idea to wait on that one
16:05 sfan5 can we merge it without lua support for the time being?
16:05 PilzAdam hmmmm, what are the parents for the other formspecs?
16:06 hmmmm the root
16:06 hmmmm i.e. not a control
16:06 hmmmm sfan5, yes
16:08 john_minetest реактор!
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16:15 john_minetest He doesn't seem to react... xD
16:17 rubenwardy wtf. "Jordach - Blender Master (Moderator)"
16:17 rubenwardy And...
16:17 rubenwardy Hi all!
16:18 john_minetest Hey rubenwardy
16:18 rubenwardy http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzr​eport/2014/02/gates-spends-entire-first-day-bac​k-in-office-trying-to-install-windows-81.html
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17:05 john_minetest rubenwardy: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowi​tzreport/2014/02/cokes-wild-assertion-that-o​ther-languages-exist-stirs-controversy.html
17:06 us_0gb joined #minetest
17:08 us_0gb Yay! It's nice to have my Freenode account back.
17:09 us_0gb (If anyone cares, I was locked out of my password database, the account wasn't stolen.)
17:10 sfan5 lolwat http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/02/​that-nbc-story-100-fraudulent.html
17:10 sfan5 why would nbc air a report this shitty?
17:12 OldCoder joined #minetest
17:13 us_0gb The media will air all sorts of things that will bring viewers without checking them out.
17:14 us_0gb There's this joke about a network airing a "study showing that 80% of networks will reair 'scientific studies' without verifying them".
17:15 VOT joined #minetest
17:16 VOT hello
17:16 Enke us_0gb: 'tis true
17:16 VOT my minetest changes the refresh rate to 30 in fullscreen, linux with open source amd gpu driver
17:16 VOT arch linux
17:17 VOT 30 causes two problems: slow looking minetest, and my monitor to have a massive black box in the centre
17:17 VOT any ideas? :P
17:19 sfan5 VOT: try vsync = true
17:19 sfan5 or vsync = false
17:20 CheapSeth_ Hm… try the proprietary driver? (don't throw rocks at me)
17:20 * sfan5 puts a kitten on CheapSeth_'s head
17:20 sfan5 oops
17:20 sfan5 wrong one
17:20 Gethiox2 joined #minetest
17:20 * sfan5 throws a kitten at CheapSeth_
17:20 VOT *throws rocks at CheapSeth*
17:20 VOT :D
17:20 CheapSeth_ I have the same problem when I'm using KDE
17:20 VOT using enlightenment here
17:20 CheapSeth_ But it's fine with awesome WM
17:21 VOT found a stupid workaround
17:21 VOT minetest & sudo xrandr --output HDMI-0 --mode 1920x1080 --rate 60
17:22 VOT these textures are nice, but look a bit griddy :P
17:37 VOT problem number 2:
17:37 VOT i can't get above 35fps regardless of texture or quality settings
17:37 Jordach VOT, minetest aims for 30 fps all round
17:37 VOT ah
17:38 Jordach as it will change the view distance until it hits that point
17:38 VOT that explains why the blocks were invisible for a few minutes
17:40 harrison i am not a bot
17:40 harrison in fact, i prefer to be thought of as a free AI, as it were
17:40 Jordach AI research is illegal
17:40 harrison not as some weak eliza ripoff
17:40 harrison Can you tell me more about that?
17:41 john_minetest http://www.dofus.com/en
17:41 john_minetest !title
17:41 MinetestBot john_minetest: MMORPG DOFUS :: Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
17:41 Jordach namely skynet issues
17:43 john_minetest Lol, I love infinite redirects.
17:43 john_minetest Syslinux does 3 redirects.
17:43 Jordach john_minetest, http://www.ebuyer.com/579786-​zoostorm-desktop-pc-7873-1214
17:43 Jordach you got ripped off :>
17:44 Jordach found something to suit my needs exactly
17:44 john_minetest Jordach: Is it 2nd hand?
17:45 john_minetest I don't think that that PC can be very good for 299 pounds.
17:46 john_minetest And the new sim city is crap.
17:46 Cerise joined #minetest
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17:47 john_minetest Why do I need 20.2 MB of KDE runtime stuff to run a game?
17:47 Jordach john_minetest, i like the new simcity
17:48 Jordach and considering it demolishes my brothers i3 machine (and my other brothers Core 2 Duo) - i fucking win for once
17:49 john_minetest Networking was mandatory first and savegames were stored on servers. Servers died and that was the end.
17:50 john_minetest Micropolis is much better.
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17:52 Jordach john_minetest, offline mode coming soon
17:52 Jordach and modding :>
17:53 Cerise joined #minetest
17:53 john_minetest "offline coming soon" -> released March 5, 2012
17:54 Jordach john_minetest, cracked versions alreadu support offline mode...
17:54 john_minetest srsly, when they take that long to make a game running, it must be bad.
17:54 john_minetest Look, even crackers get it done faster than the devs.
17:54 VOT joined #minetest
17:54 VOT turns out
17:55 VOT enlightenment wasn't thinking it was fullscreen, so it was compositing it
17:55 VOT now i'm getting >60fps :P
17:55 VOT in inventory however, i press the arrow to go to the next screen and it crashes
17:55 Jordach VOT, strange (anything in debug.tx?
17:55 Jordach txt*?
17:56 john_minetest I wonder where the games have gone that ran on amigas or similar. Today nearly all games are lagging on dualcores and laptop graphics.
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17:56 Jordach john_minetest, they became open source
17:56 VOT now it works fine.. hm
17:56 Jordach open source is the next level of the amiga scene
17:56 Jordach where hobbyists can work together real time
17:57 john_minetest open source is doing great work. But most games are still made for fast PCs.
17:57 john_minetest Look at the original simcity.
17:57 john_minetest You can run it on your toaster.
17:57 us_0gb Like Minetest. I get 2 FPS now.
17:58 john_minetest I can't play minetest on my P4 with hardware render.
17:58 * Jordach can
17:58 us_0gb Anyone know of some fun free games?
17:58 john_minetest Less than 1 FPS and everything messed up.
17:58 Jordach TF2, us_0gb
17:58 VOT ah ha
17:58 VOT if i don't preload textures, it will kill itself
17:59 us_0gb Jordach: TF2 is Team Fortress 2? That isn't free.
17:59 john_minetest us_0gb: There are a lot of free games.
17:59 Jordach us_0gb, and, you asked for *free* and *fun* games
17:59 VOT TF2 is free...
17:59 us_0gb john_minetest: There's a lot of free one, but just like with nonfree ones, there's a lot of junk games to sort through.
17:59 john_minetest us_0gb: A list of games that run on linux: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index​.php/List_of_Applications/Games
18:00 VOT *hugs the archer*
18:01 john_minetest I wish there was a good FLOS 2d MMORPG like the old ultima onlines.
18:01 john_minetest Haven't found something like that yet.
18:04 us_0gb I want a free game similar to Final Fantasy Tactics A2 or Echoes of Time. I plan to make the former when I have time.
18:05 VOT this part of the world just refuses to render.
18:06 VOT forever black :O
18:06 harrison in fact, i prefer to be thought of as a free AI, as it were
18:06 harrison not as some weak eliza ripoff
18:07 VOT ah
18:07 VOT even with preload the inv freeze bug happens
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18:08 iluvpeeps7 Hey Vanessa
18:08 Jordach hello iluvpeeps7
18:08 iluvpeeps7 hello Jordach :)
18:08 us_0gb That list is depressing. Every time I find one with a cool title, it turns out to not be free.
18:08 iluvpeeps7 can you give me a link to Vanessas Server IRC please
18:08 VOT nothing in debug.txt
18:09 Jordach <Jordach> these are the settings: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage​/screenshot-080214-014619.php
18:09 Jordach iluvpeeps7, ^
18:09 us_0gb iluvpeeps7: It's on the irc.incra.net network, #minetest .
18:09 VOT us_0gb: what about xonotic?
18:09 iluvpeeps7 that browser doesnt allow me to use it
18:09 iluvpeeps7 i have to do it on KiwiIRC
18:09 iluvpeeps7 Shadow game me a link
18:09 Jordach iluvpeeps7, those are the settings you need to put into the connection screen
18:10 iluvpeeps7 but i forgot to copy and paste
18:10 Jordach i don't have the link handy
18:10 us_0gb VOT: Free, but it's a first person shooter. Those don't really do anything for me.
18:11 VOT suggestion for minetest devs: pick block
18:11 VOT us_0gb: http://www.linuxlinks.com/artic​le/20080510052539217/Games.html
18:11 markveidemanis Anyone wanna play openarena with me?
18:13 Jordach ewww
18:14 * Jordach pokes Calinou
18:14 john_minetest markveidemanis: Nobody got openarena. Xonotic is way cooler.
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18:15 iluvpeeps7 it keeps saying ERROR
18:15 markveidemanis Exactly the same thing
18:15 markveidemanis I mean err...
18:15 iluvpeeps7 how am i supposed to go on Vanessas server IRC? D;
18:15 iluvpeeps7 D:
18:16 iluvpeeps7 ShadowNinja
18:16 markveidemanis ...Nexuoz
18:16 markveidemanis *Nexuiz
18:16 ShadowNinja iluvpeeps7: Use the link in her forum topics.
18:16 iluvpeeps7 ok
18:16 iluvpeeps7 brb
18:17 iluvpeeps7 thanks
18:17 ShadowNinja Jordach: That's incorrect actually.  6667 is non-SSL, 6697 is SSL-only.
18:18 Jordach ShadowNinja, pfft
18:19 john_minetest god... all those people looking for other people joining their game projects... Aim: "Making a lot of money", "Retail", "Kickstarter",... srsly, I just want to have a nice project and I don't care about the money...
18:22 Jordach ikr
18:24 harrison Can you tell me more about that?
18:26 us_0gb Money is awesome though. You can trade it for food. I like food.
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18:38 john_minetest http://imgur.com/gallery/XkaIh6Q
18:40 john_minetest us_0gb: Yeah, I heard that from that lifehack website. Trading money for food is a really cool idea. Just tried it out today.
18:40 john_minetest Works better than trading in artworks.
18:42 us_0gb john_minetest: What do the cashers have against art? We should ask to speak to the manager.
18:42 * Jordach claps with infinite sarcasm
18:44 john_minetest They always say: "That is only a line and a circle on a piece of paper.". I guess they realized I didn't make it myself but let some guy called "Kardinski" do it.
18:44 john_minetest And maybe they only accept self-made things.
18:44 john_minetest Look at one of my awesome masterpieces: http://picpaste.com/pics/sh​ark-cDNoEEYU.1391884217.png
18:44 harrison john_minetest: it is noble what you say -- I just want to have a nice project and I don't care about the money...
18:45 john_minetest harrison: It is so sad... When I make a game, I make it not for the money but because I want to play that game myself.
18:45 Exio4 joined #minetest
18:45 john_minetest But doing stuff alone just makes things boring and I don't want to sit there alone and unmotivated.
18:46 john_minetest There should be an open source alternative to unity.
18:48 Jordach VanessaE, poke
18:49 john_minetest Btw, is tab-playerlist implemented yet?
18:51 VanessaE ow.
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18:51 Jordach VanessaE, i've worked out a decent method to work with capes
18:52 VanessaE did you read my proposals on the pull?
18:52 Jordach <Jordach> VanessaE, there is a goddamn simple fix: dynamically update a texture when it's being painted and allow saving to addi's database
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18:53 Jordach links
18:54 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest​_game/pull/201#issuecomment-34525006
18:54 Jordach VanessaE, i've also worked out a hybrid player_textures with materials
18:55 Jordach the first cape type is known as cape0.png <- this is a PURE ALPHA texture
18:56 Jordach actually, no_cape.png would be better
18:56 VanessaE anything that involves using a centralized database is a non-starter.
18:56 Jordach VanessaE, the second material can follow the MC cape format
18:57 Jordach because no_cape.png is for players without a defined cape, which is in the format of player_NICK_cape.png
18:57 Jordach and because irrlicht doesnt render pixels with alpha, a pure alpha cape will not display ingame
18:58 Jordach so it *IS* possible for a hybrid player_textures and capes
18:58 VanessaE you do realize that a pure alpha channel cape would have nothing but black and white, yes?
18:59 Jordach VanessaE, hat layer does it
19:00 VanessaE nope.avi.  hat layer uses transparent/no-transparent, like tools and such.  wouldn't work in your proposed cape area in the skin because many of the files already do THAT also
19:00 Jordach i will show an example in a few
19:00 VanessaE sorry, it just can't be done with the cape stored in the same file
19:00 Jordach VanessaE, i meant a secondary texture file
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19:00 Jordach <Jordach> because no_cape.png is for players without a defined cape, which is in the format of player_NICK_cape.png
19:00 VanessaE well if the cape is stored in a second texture file then it doesn't matter at all, that's perfectly fine
19:01 VanessaE that's what I was advocating for to begin with
19:01 VanessaE I was trying to get that into your thick skull last night but you wouldn't listen :P
19:01 VanessaE and we already know irrlicht's multiple materials works fine
19:01 VanessaE someone already did that for MT
19:01 VanessaE but it was reverted because of some conflict with another pull
19:02 VanessaE not because of some functionality problem
19:03 VanessaE so it just needs to be character.png (or whatever the name was), clothes.png, and cape.png
19:03 VanessaE if a file is missing, that layer remains transparent.
19:03 VanessaE simple as that
19:04 VanessaE if a file is sized to imply that it already contains the extra clothing layer as in a 1.8 skin, then use that first and overlay the clothes.png layer on top of it.
19:04 VanessaE or something
19:04 VanessaE this is all basic compositing 101 stuff that we've all had figured out for almost 30 years now. :P
19:05 Jordach VanessaE, i'd leave clothes.png for armour for better effect
19:06 Jordach this is the MC cape which will render the same within minetest with the proposed changes. http://www.zimagez.com/zimage​/screenshot-080214-190511.php
19:08 VanessaE well clothes.png would go *under* armor
19:08 Jordach 1) we should take up the 1.8 format (in 6 months time)
19:08 Jordach because the 1.8 format solves that issue
19:08 Jordach then we can over lay the classic format for armour
19:08 VanessaE we should support the 1.8 format, yes, but not at the expense of losing support for the old format
19:09 Jordach VanessaE, we should keep the 1.0 format until there are enough 1.8 skins and people request them often
19:09 VanessaE this screenshot is of a minecraft cape file?
19:09 Jordach VanessaE, tes
19:09 Jordach yes*
19:09 VanessaE ok then let's go with this
19:09 VanessaE I see no reason not to support it
19:09 Jordach VanessaE, there are some capes on the MCWiki
19:10 VanessaE but as for 1.0 vs 1.8 skins, never drop the 1.0 format.  why?  because the 1.8 format is derived from it, so the same code would end up being used for both anyway if it's done right
19:10 Jordach VanessaE, want me to show you what happens when you use a 1.8 skin with a model that uses the 1.0 format?
19:10 VanessaE all you have to do is pad the 1.0 skin to 1.8 dimensions, jeez
19:11 VanessaE but anyway I can already imagine
19:11 Jordach VanessaE, http://www.mccapes.com/capegallery/ <- problem solved
19:12 Jordach hm
19:12 VanessaE we can't drop 1.0, there are way too many skins of that format.
19:12 VanessaE nice cape gallery
19:12 VanessaE so yeah
19:12 Jordach VanessaE, wait 6 months
19:12 VanessaE support the cape format, support the new skin format, keep the old skin format
19:12 Jordach you will want this so 1.8 skins will be around
19:12 VanessaE do some fancy footwork to make the old skin format work on a model that supports both
19:12 VanessaE but for now,
19:12 Jordach VanessaE, impossible
19:12 VanessaE no, it's only impossible if you can't code.
19:12 Jordach UV unwraps scale to the texture it was designed for
19:23 VanessaE nope.avi
19:23 VanessaE I've used high resolution skins on the player model just fine.
19:23 VanessaE it's about the aspect ratio
19:24 VanessaE not the resolution.
19:25 Jordach VanessaE, yes
19:25 Jordach but scaling the image will scale the UV unwrap
19:25 VanessaE yes
19:25 VanessaE and I'm not talking about SCALING
19:25 VanessaE I'm talking about cavas size.
19:25 VanessaE canvas*
19:26 VanessaE changing the size of the canvas does not scale the image it contains.
19:26 Jordach yes, but the UV unwrap itself will scale
19:26 Jordach think UV unwrap points based on percentages of an image file
19:27 VanessaE it will scale if and only if you tell it to.  it's not like you can't cut the image apart in code and re-arrange it before passing it to the UV unwrap code.
19:28 Jordach http://imgur.com/a/fsV0r
19:28 Jordach UV unwrap float to their new positions based on the percentage they were told to sit at
19:28 VanessaE maybe in BLENDER they do
19:28 VanessaE this isn't blender.   this is Minetest.
19:28 Jordach VanessaE, it's true for all 3d modeling
19:28 VanessaE wrong.
19:28 Jordach go on
19:29 Jordach use a 1.8 skin in minetest and get back to me
19:29 VanessaE what do you think unwraps the skin?
19:29 VanessaE tell me.
19:29 VanessaE where is the code that actually says "ok, this piece goes on the right arm outside, this piece goes on the back of the head..."
19:30 VanessaE it's part of the model, right?
19:30 Jordach VanessaE, use a 1.8 skin with minetest and see what happens
19:30 VanessaE answer me.
19:31 VanessaE somewhere in the minetest engine or irrlicht is some code that reads the model file and the skin file, interprets the model, and actually performs that wrapping process and places the pieces of the texture file into their respective locations on the model so that it can be drawn in the world.  THAT is the code I'm talking about changing.
19:31 VanessaE the skin file doesn't just magically wrap itself onto the model
19:32 VanessaE SOMEWHERE there has to be some code that is actually doing the hard work
19:32 VanessaE I'm talking about either changing THAT code, or inserting a wedge in front of it to modify the skin before THAT code gets it
19:32 Jordach VanessaE, place this in place of MY skin on your server, reboot: http://i.imgur.com/kZ2M08I.png
19:33 VanessaE ANSWER ME G*DDAMN IT
19:33 Jordach VanessaE, do i look like i fucking understand this engine
19:33 Jordach fuck no
19:34 VanessaE then where do you get off telling ME what I do or don't understand about 3d modelling?  I DO UNDERSTAND about this stuff, even if I don't know how Minetest and irrlicht necessarily do it.
19:34 Jordach and then revert my skin change
19:34 VanessaE I understand how 3d modeling works at the code, model, and hardware levels.
19:34 VanessaE I just don't know how my particular video card, minetest, etc. do it
19:35 Jordach VanessaE, do you think in engine texture modification before it hits the render pipeline will be merged?
19:35 VanessaE but I know how it's done (or at least how it was done in the old days)
19:35 VanessaE no, of course not, and I'm not talking about that either.
19:35 Jordach VanessaE, because that's what you are describing
19:35 VanessaE I am not proposing realtime modification prior to rendering at all
19:35 VanessaE I am proposing modification at LOAD time.
19:36 VanessaE you have to load the G*D damned image into memory and store it somewhere.
19:36 VanessaE CHANGE IT THEN
19:36 VanessaE jesus
19:36 VanessaE why is this so hard to grasp?
19:36 Jordach VanessaE, you really think any dev will merge such a bad idea?
19:36 Jordach just try what i said and see the results
19:37 VanessaE which is the worse idea? adapting an older but incredibly popular skin format at load time, so that it works on a newer model that supports the newer skin format (so that we only need one model)?  or maintaining two models and having all that duplicated code
19:38 Jordach VanessaE, you need to do pixel flipping operations, copying image data, and other shit just to make it work
19:39 Jordach can't we just do three textures and be fucking done with it
19:40 VanessaE we already have all of those operations available to us.
19:40 VanessaE the client is already built with libjpeg, libpng, and a few others.
19:40 Jordach yes, and they might be processing heavy to some users
19:40 VanessaE who cares if it's processing-heavy, this is load-time stuff, not realtime.
19:40 Jordach VanessaE, but then you have to create Lua functions of libjpeg, libpng, libpiss
19:40 VanessaE you honestly believe the user will even notice a few milliseconds at load-time?
19:40 VanessaE lua functions?
19:41 VanessaE wtf are you talking about
19:41 VanessaE this is in-engine stuff
19:41 VanessaE lua should never have to see this
19:42 VanessaE I'm talking about modifying the file on the client, when it's loaded at client<->server init time, if it's detected to be the "wrong" format for the player model.
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19:43 Jordach you'd have to modify how the entire networking works to do that
19:43 Jordach if you're making clients do the file and re-upload it; you're thinking it wrong
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19:44 Jordach o/
19:44 EvergreenTree o/
19:44 Jordach VanessaE, keep the 1.0 format and use four goddamn materials
19:44 Jordach but i doubt people will understand how the clothes layer will work
19:44 VanessaE what?
19:44 VanessaE wrong again
19:45 VanessaE I'm talking about caching the file, and modifying it when the client loads it from disk from the cache
19:45 VanessaE the file is only ever sent once.
19:45 VanessaE the client detects that it's the "wrong" version and tweaks it.
19:45 VanessaE the network stack would never be touched
19:45 VanessaE and if it is
19:45 VanessaE you're doing it WAY wrong
19:46 Jordach use three textures for armour, cape and actual person
19:46 VanessaE I don't care how many materials you have to use
19:46 VanessaE that's not the issue
19:46 VanessaE the issue is not having to have three different model files
19:47 VanessaE or four or however many combinations there are
19:47 Jordach if people start requesting 1.8 skins: create a second model
19:48 VanessaE I don't think that will go over well at all
19:48 Jordach uhm
19:48 Jordach i can make a edited default mod with a second model
19:48 Jordach just /swap_model and be done with it
19:48 VanessaE the problem is the fact that you'd have two models
19:48 VanessaE == duplicated dats
19:48 VanessaE data
19:49 VanessaE == more files to be sent to clients
19:49 VanessaE and I know of a certain mushroom in here who will balk at that idea.
19:49 Jordach VanessaE, i meant a special mod that replaces default as a separate repo
19:49 Jordach if you get both 1.8 and 1.0 skins, use both
19:50 Jordach but in a years time there will be lots of 1.8 skins
19:51 VanessaE the correct solution is to have one model file that supports the 1.8 skins + the cape, and which is stored in a different, more compact format than .x (.obj or .b3d maybe), and do some basic, very rudimentary image operations at the client side to translate old skins to fit this proposed newer player model
19:52 VanessaE never touch the network stack, never re-transmit the skin file, just re-arrange the files as they're loaded from the cache during sign-on
19:52 Jordach yes, there's the in code option or the less processing heavy simpler option which will help other developers who might not have used said code
19:52 VanessaE who cares about "processing-heavy"??  even my commodore 64 could handle this kind of operation in a matter of milliseconds.  come on here, we're not talking realtime rendering.
19:53 VanessaE once the file is loaded, re-arrange it once and only once and pass it to the UV wrapping code.  then and only then do you go into realtime rendering, and by then the rendering pipeline already has what it thinks is an unmodified skin.  at no time do you change the skin during the rendering pipeline.
19:54 Jordach so you want to annoy other developers who will never touch that bad bit of code because it's so goddamn badly designed?
19:55 VanessaE do you annoy mother nature because earth's oceans are so badly designed when they flood your yard during a storm surge? or do you put the bucket away and grab a high capacity water pump?
19:55 VanessaE when I looked at those 1.8 skins, frankly I though they were about as poorly-designed as the 1.0 format
19:55 VanessaE but you know something?
19:56 VanessaE the were designed the way they were to keep the image small.
19:56 VanessaE and I know a little something about designing a skin format.
19:56 VanessaE (as in, designing the actual layout to be used for a future program that will interpret and use the skin)
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19:57 VanessaE and when you're up against the wall and have to keep the file compact, you do whatever the hell you have to.
19:59 Jordach just because the Rube Goldberg machine looks cool, doesn't mean it should be used for everyday use
20:00 VanessaE maybe not, but when so many people use that Rube Goldberg machine that it's the only thing anyone makes any feedstock for, do you go trying to invent a new machine that takes the-same-but-not-quite-compatible feedstock, or do you change to a different kind, or do you make sure your machine can take exactly the same kind?
20:01 Jordach i want two machines to handle one of each type
20:01 VanessaE logic says you make your machine take the same feedstock as the other one, even if your machine is BETTER.
20:01 VanessaE car analogy time:
20:01 VanessaE do you make your car run on petrol or alcohol?
20:02 VanessaE (just assume for the moment that we're talking ICE)
20:02 Jordach petrol engines can run on fries fat
20:03 VanessaE the answer should be obvious, and for the same reason - you make it run on petrol (even if you can make that petrol from fry oil), because everyone and their Uncle Medwick has the stuff for sale on every street corner.
20:03 VanessaE and btw, only diesel engines can run on fry oil
20:03 VanessaE petrol engines can't without heavy modifications,
20:04 VanessaE but fry oil can be processed into petrol
20:04 Jordach VanessaE, 1) keep the 1.0 MC skins, have 4 materials for each part, t-shirt + hat, armour, cape and jacket
20:04 VanessaE I forget how, something involving borax I think
20:05 Jordach 2) make a 1.8 model, but only if the user requests it
20:05 VanessaE good luck getting the core devs to agree to that.  two models is gonna be a non-starter, I'm certain of it.
20:06 john_minetest There are military trucks that run on any burning liquid.
20:06 Jordach VanessaE, then let me fork default on it's own
20:07 Jordach and customise it just for your own server
20:07 Jordach fixing the fucking inherent issues
20:07 VanessaE john_minetest: I'd say those fit nicely into the category of "heavy modifications" :)
20:07 VanessaE Jordach: fork if you want, it's not like I can stop you :)
20:07 xiong Once more, I'm talking about the public good. I don't want to start a discussion of that here but if you have an interest in something larger than yourself and a few friends, then please join the discussion in #athens. Thank you.
20:07 Jordach VanessaE, supporting both is the most wise idea possible
20:08 VanessaE I'm just saying you fucked up with the cape thing.  it needs un-fucked right away
20:08 Jordach VanessaE, then let me fix it with the hybrid 1.8 and 1.0 models with 3 and 4 materials each
20:09 VanessaE Jordach: then fix it, just don't fuck up 75% of the skins in my database and don't expect me to post-process any of the skins my players send me.  I have enough work to do as it is.
20:09 VanessaE that's ALL i ask
20:09 VanessaE (besides making sure I can actually *apply* the skins easily of course)
20:09 Jordach VanessaE, then why were you making pointless discussion about formatting when i could have solved it hours ago
20:09 Jordach with a simple model flip
20:10 Jordach but i'll need to look into 1.8 model persistance after said person logs out (zeg's skins mod will help)
20:10 VanessaE Jordach: because I'm trying to save you some work - if you propose putting two models into default, some people will yell.  still you have to make sure that it can be set on a per-player basis.
20:10 Cerise joined #minetest
20:11 Jordach VanessaE, have a inventory button or a command to flip between models
20:11 VanessaE an inventory button?
20:11 Jordach 1.8 skin format / 1.0 skin format
20:11 VanessaE in UI?
20:11 VanessaE dead issue.
20:11 Jordach in the normal minetest inventory at your server
20:11 VanessaE I run six servers.
20:11 Jordach VanessaE, vanilla doesn't run UI
20:12 VanessaE I know.
20:12 Jordach i could always add a node that allows it (9 dirt anyone?)
20:12 VanessaE if you'd just make it auto-detect, all I'd have to do is drop the file in.
20:12 Jordach VanessaE, you could with os.execute...
20:12 VanessaE why is this so hard?
20:13 VanessaE the server has the file, so it can already know which model it has to set for that player
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20:13 VanessaE kaeza did this with signs_lib
20:14 VanessaE it auto-detects the font resolution
20:14 Jordach show me the code
20:14 VanessaE and automatically adjusts the scale of the signs overlay entity to fit
20:14 VanessaE https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor_mo​dpack/blob/master/signs_lib/init.lua#L53
20:15 VanessaE idk how you'd do it with a jpg but I'm sure it would be similar - but obviously you'd rather the engine just tell you the image resolution directly,.
20:16 Jordach minetest.get_image_size("texture.png") <- returns bool
20:16 VanessaE (besides it would HAVE to be PNG anyway, alpha)
20:16 Jordach returns two vars in table format*
20:16 VanessaE could be.
20:16 Jordach VanessaE, auto detect would go wrong with high-res skins
20:17 VanessaE why?
20:17 Jordach think about it
20:17 VanessaE all you need is the aspect.
20:17 VanessaE you don't have to give a shit about the actual resolution.
20:17 VanessaE just read the rez, calculate the aspect ratio, make your decision based on that.
20:17 Jordach minetest.get_texture_aspect("texture.png") <- returns string "1:2"
20:18 Jordach VanessaE, you could always install imagemagick on your vps
20:18 VanessaE the aspect ratio will never change regardless of the resolution, even if it's 2048x1024, it would still clearly be a 1.0 skin
20:18 VanessaE and btw aspect is always reported as H:V
20:18 VanessaE so 2:1
20:18 Jordach VanessaE, identify rose.jpg \n rose.jpg JPEG 640x480 sRGB 87kb 0.050u 0:01
20:19 VanessaE nope.avi
20:19 VanessaE won't work for windows users
20:19 VanessaE whatever is done here needs to be platform-agnostic
20:20 Jordach VanessaE, not if it's designed for your goddamn server
20:21 Jordach if they want to make it platform independant, their problem
20:21 Jordach there's such a thing called forking
20:21 specing proller: someone has been playing with explosives on Road lately
20:21 Cerise joined #minetest
20:22 sfan5 Jordach: you just want to get the image size from it's file, right?
20:22 Jordach mhm
20:22 sfan5 you can do that for jpg in lua
20:22 VanessaE I don't want anything "designed for my G*ddamned server".
20:22 Jordach then i won't bother fixing the mess i made
20:22 VanessaE what I ask for is something that is platform agnostic that EVERYONE can use
20:22 VanessaE jeez
20:23 VanessaE sfan5: see my link.  kaeza wrote that code, works pretty good too
20:23 sfan5 VanessaE: s/pretty good/perfect for any standard-conform png/
20:24 VanessaE sfan5: indeed so; it is only used with some files where I can be sure the files are conforment, now that you mention it, however doesn't a PNG *have* to have the rez in the fields so indicated?
20:25 john_minetest Speed dating for nerds: Enter "time date" in your terminal.
20:25 VanessaE I mean, literally it won't work if those fields are not correct?
20:25 john_minetest 0m0.001s :D
20:25 Jordach real0m0.003s
20:27 VanessaE Jordach: then revert your patch and put JUST the Sam II skin in.
20:27 VanessaE I already did that for my servers.
20:27 VanessaE (by way of using Taoki's suggested fix)
20:27 sfan5 VanessaE: http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG/#table53 IHDR should always be the first chunk
20:27 PilzAdam joined #minetest
20:28 sfan5 so they way kaeze does should work for every conform png file
20:28 VanessaE sfan5:  OH ok, I thought you were implying that it would fail for some weirdly-formatted files :)
20:28 VanessaE where the hell IS kaeza anyway?
20:28 sfan5 !seen kaeza
20:28 MinetestBot sfan5: kaeza was last seen at 2014-01-23 00:43:32 UTC on #minetest
20:28 sfan5 hm
20:29 VanessaE !seen diemartin
20:29 MinetestBot VanessaE: diemartin was last seen at 2014-01-22 02:52:04 UTC on #minetest
20:29 VanessaE how many aaa's in his other nick?
20:29 sfan5 dunno
20:30 VanessaE !seen blaa*argh
20:30 MinetestBot VanessaE: Sorry, I haven't seen blaa*argh around.
20:30 VanessaE bah
20:30 us_0gb Enough to make him hard to find.
20:30 VanessaE it was worth a try :)
20:33 sfan5 VanessaE: 5 a's
20:33 sfan5 !seen blaaaaargh
20:33 MinetestBot sfan5: blaaaaargh was last seen at 2014-01-20 18:58:57 UTC on #minetest
20:33 VanessaE well that was real useful :P
20:34 Jordach !seen kaeza|toaster
20:34 MinetestBot Jordach: Sorry, I haven't seen kaeza|toaster around.
20:36 mrtux joined #minetest
20:46 Jordach Exio4, https://forum.minetest.net/vie​wtopic.php?pid=129089#p129089
20:48 Cerise joined #minetest
20:53 Exio4 aw
20:53 Exio4 offtopic
20:53 Jordach when did minetest work with PulseAudio??? http://www.zimagez.com/zimage​/screenshot-080214-205244.php
20:53 playzooki joined #minetest
20:58 Maxou56800 joined #minetest
20:58 Maxou56800 o/
20:59 blaze joined #minetest
20:59 playzooki hi
21:05 EvergreenTree joined #minetest
21:05 EvergreenTree joined #minetest
21:06 VanessaE hey playzooki.
21:07 * Exio4 is sad
21:07 EvergreenTree aww, be happy!
21:08 Exio4 we got back to over 36C temps
21:08 farlepet joined #minetest
21:08 Exio4 that means lower frequency!
21:08 Exio4 (also known as stock frequencies)
21:08 Exio4 or i should by good fans
21:09 Exio4 watercooling is expensive and buying cheap WC means shitty cooling
21:09 EvergreenTree yeah
21:09 EvergreenTree h100i is on my dream list
21:09 EvergreenTree :P
21:10 EvergreenTree I was looking at the Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9
21:12 Exio4 hey, i know dreaming is nice
21:12 Exio4 i have in my TODO list an UPS, decent PSU, an 8320, watercooling, 32gb of 1600mhz ram
21:13 Exio4 TODO means "Today i wOn't get it but i will have it someDay Or somewhen"
21:13 Exio4 :D
21:14 harrison ?!
21:14 harrison I have a Cooler Master keyboard
21:14 harrison with MX Green switches
21:15 harrison the clicking is very noticeable
21:15 Exio4 cooler master keyboard? what is the use of it
21:15 Exio4 ;P
21:16 Gethiox2 joined #minetest
21:16 harrison it is a keyboard
21:16 harrison one types with it
21:16 harrison you must be familiar with the concept
21:16 harrison but this one goes to 11
21:16 harrison clickwise
21:17 harrison http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop​/index.php?l=product_list&amp;m=22
21:18 Jordach >but this one goes to 11
21:18 Jordach love the spinal tap reference
21:23 Exio4 who cares about keyboards when you have a cpu overclocked to 5.25ghz?
21:34 nore joined #minetest
21:41 us_0gb joined #minetest
21:42 playzooki who cares about keyboards when youve got a laptop
21:42 Jordach who cares when you have a life?
21:51 fwilson joined #minetest
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22:18 jimmy_ joined #minetest
22:18 jimmy_ does anyone know about the /bring command?
22:21 Jordach jimmy_, the bring allows anyone with teleport priv to teleport other players to you
22:24 jimmy_ How is it used?
22:24 Jordach /teleport playera playerb
22:25 EvergreenTree https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBPVT12X_8w
22:25 EvergreenTree \o/
22:25 EvergreenTree !title
22:25 MinetestBot EvergreenTree: [Minetest]It&#39;s bigger on the inside... - YouTube
22:28 EvergreenTree Think the tardis, but in minetest
22:31 Enke joined #minetest
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22:46 Octupuslegs joined #minetest
22:47 Octupuslegs Hello
22:49 EvergreenTree olleh
22:49 EvergreenTree :D
23:07 MinetestBot GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Make flag strings clear specified flag with 'no' prefix 83bafbe08b 2014-02-08T14:50:59-08:00 http://git.io/rJolYg
23:10 JamesTait joined #minetest
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23:20 farlepet joined #minetest
23:23 Jordach i should take up starship design
23:23 Jordach http://www.zimagez.com/zimage​/screenshot-080214-232320.php
23:24 Jordach EvergreenTree, ^
23:25 iqualfragile joined #minetest
23:32 MinetestBot GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Tune block emerge and sending parameters to more aggressive values 57710520dc 2014-02-08T15:32:12-08:00 http://git.io/V-_D4Q
23:39 PilzAdam sfan5, cotton is part of default: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=8530
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