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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-12-26

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Time Nick Message
00:00 tumeninodes joined #minetest-hub
00:00 tumeninodes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR3EiIO22GQ
00:03 Jordach tumeninodes: prepare yourself
00:03 * Jordach renders again with VEGAS
00:03 Jordach humble bundle had it cheaaaaaap
00:06 tumeninodes how cheap? isn't pro like $600?
00:06 Jordach $20
00:06 Jordach on humble bundle
00:07 tumeninodes ??? whaaaaa?
00:07 Jordach https://www.humblebundle.com/sof​tware/vegas-pro-creative-freedom
00:08 red-001 could someone that knows more about srp in minetest tell me, can server doing mitm use the data sent to it during sign up to then authenticate as that user on the server it's attacking or would it need the user to login every time it wants to authenticate as that user?
00:08 tumeninodes Ah they have Xara too. If you have never tried it, I recommend you do, I think youd like it
00:08 red-001 and can login data be used to enter sudo mode?
00:09 sfan5 red-001, to do this kind of active mitm you would need to internet with the real client everytime you want to log into an attacking server
00:11 sfan5 not sure what you mean by 'auth data'
00:11 Megaf Hi
00:11 Jordach tumeninodes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNZ0qKhB2tg
00:11 sfan5 s/internet/interact/ btw
00:11 Megaf Jordach: is the render ready yet?
00:11 Jordach Megaf: ^^^
00:11 sfan5 also s/attacking/attacked/
00:12 Megaf oh boy
00:12 red-001 ah so the data send during initial sign-up can't be used generate further logins, just verify them?
00:12 Megaf Jordach: you made that?
00:12 red-001 what about entering sudo mode?
00:12 Jordach yes
00:12 Jordach i may or may not have wrote a top down shooter
00:12 Jordach :^)))
00:13 Megaf Jordach: If I had money I'd contract you man
00:13 Megaf brilliant
00:13 Jordach MT isn't a goddamn Minecraft engine
00:13 Jordach nor a voxel engine if you try hard enough
00:13 Jordach and yes, that sucka supports the damn wardrobe API
00:14 sfan5 red-001, the data exchanged during login authenticates the user exactly once; sudomode requires a login-equivalent SRP exchange to be entered
00:14 tumeninodes nice Jordach. How long did it take to render?
00:14 red-001 huh so a server would only need two logins for active mitm
00:14 Jordach 6 mins on CPU
00:14 Jordach at a whopping 32mbps
00:14 red-001 get one valid login tell the user the password is invalid
00:15 red-001 they enter it again, then assuming they used the same password thinking they typed it wrong, it can enter sudo mode and change the password
00:17 tumeninodes my rig sucks, takes 15 min to render a cube in Blender
00:17 Jordach kektus
00:18 Megaf my workstation has a burned GPU
00:18 Megaf more like the IC that make the outputs actually
00:18 Megaf GPU still works, but no output at all
00:19 Megaf theres a hole in the midle ot the IF
00:19 Megaf of the IC*
00:19 tumeninodes Megaf, sell it on ebay as a custom
00:19 Megaf https://megaf.imgur.com/all/
00:20 tumeninodes Jordach, I love the flying position though (wish that were same for MTG)
00:22 DI3HARD139 joined #minetest-hub
00:22 tumeninodes afk briefly
00:23 Megaf Enjoy
00:26 * Megaf opens a hacker website
00:27 Megaf website says, please turn on javascript and reload the page
00:27 Megaf how about now?
00:27 Megaf I mena
00:27 Megaf how about no?
00:34 Jordach REEEE
00:34 Jordach https://i.imgur.com/uBm9vKF.jpg
00:34 Jordach minetest flight sim coming soon
00:40 red-001 Jordach, what engine for that shooter?
00:41 Jordach red-001: custom built
00:41 red-001 including rendering?
00:41 Fixer Jordach: lol
00:41 Jordach i mean the actual *flight* part
00:41 red-001 so what you use?
00:42 Jordach something i whipped up on a christmas evening
00:42 red-001 oh is this in-minetest?
00:42 Jordach yes
00:45 Megaf I wont be rendering much stuff in my workstation so soon https://imgur.com/a/BH4va
00:50 tumeninodes This is why we don't cook on circuit boards
00:51 tumeninodes Megaf, no worries... that'll buff right out
00:55 tumeninodes on a side note, fired up my old XP desktop today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPJJ0yWhDkg
00:55 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
00:57 red-001 Megaf, what happened there
00:57 red-001 looks like there was a minor fire or something
00:58 sniper338 joined #minetest-hub
01:05 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
01:09 shivajiva middle hdmi socket looks like it was shorting +5V to ground
01:10 Megaf I'd say 20 KV to ground :)
01:10 Megaf red-001: blown transfromer on the street
01:10 Megaf it sent several thoudands of volts instead of 220 V
01:10 red-001 ouch
01:11 ThomasMonroe what happened Megaf?
01:11 Megaf It vaporized some stuff
01:11 Megaf if you look at the HDMI conector photos on the PC
01:11 Megaf under it, theres a chunk of metal missing
01:11 red-001 how is your whole electric setup not fried?
01:11 Megaf ThomasMonroe: I'd say a miracle from God, all that voltage and an arc/bolt and yet no fire in my home
01:12 red-001 I wouldn't expect something made for 220 v to not burn with 20kv
01:12 Megaf just above the PC a lot of wood and books
01:12 ThomasMonroe O.O glad He kept you safe
01:12 tumeninodes they were just giving you all the power you paid for, and they held back... at one shot
01:13 Megaf I just added photos of the UPS, just took it apart https://imgur.com/a/BH4va
01:13 shivajiva they blow with a nice green flash as the copper vaporizes, there are a couple of vids of pole pigs blowing on yt
01:13 Megaf this once was a fuse https://i.imgur.com/VCGrphb.jpg
01:14 tumeninodes happens frequently in my area.
01:15 ThomasMonroe wow
01:15 ThomasMonroe Hey, at least you will remmeber this Christmas for a while
01:16 tumeninodes one would think that the power industry would have an upgrade since 1903
01:16 Megaf Notice how useless a fuse is
01:16 red-001 do they have to pay damages or do they have indemnity?
01:16 Megaf my PC PSU doesnt have a fuse, it's totally fine, and most of my PC too, only one broken IC
01:16 Megaf red-001: we have an issurance that covered half
01:17 Megaf my mom didnt know the PC was blown too so I didnt get any money for it yet
01:17 shivajiva why the hdmi socket as opposed to other links in the chain
01:17 tumeninodes this is why (surge protectors)
01:17 red-001 shivajiva, who knows
01:17 Megaf fuse should protect for surges...
01:18 Sokomine Jordach: will the player fall down if the backpack fails? :-)
01:18 Megaf well, my PSU has a built in surge protection, hence it been fine
01:18 Jordach Sokomine: unlimited use
01:18 shivajiva tranzorbs are fitted as standard on most equipment so the path to ground should have occurred much earlier in the path
01:18 Jordach it's also unaffected by the anti-cheat for speed
01:18 CBugDCoder joined #minetest-hub
01:20 Sokomine Jordach: beeing unaffected by anti-cheat is good. that is mostly just annoying
01:20 Sokomine megaf: poor ups
01:22 Megaf poor nothing, it didnt do anything to protect my 38¨ monitor nor my workstation
01:22 Megaf everything blown
01:23 Megaf and all the surge protectors are totally unharmed
01:23 tumeninodes Some years ago, I had a slew of clients ordering surge protector equipment and peripherals (even for individual phone lines), when a freak electrical storm hit the area and many businesses were hit with massive power surges
01:25 shivajiva wondering how big the emp would be
01:25 tumeninodes some of those companies estimated a loss of up to 1 mil $ usd per hour their phone systems were down
01:27 tumeninodes I recall one companies Avaya Definity, every port was damaged similar to yours... charred, warped boards, ports fully blown
01:33 Jordach joined #minetest-hub
01:56 sniper570 joined #minetest-hub
02:04 Megaf MinetestBot!
02:04 MinetestBot Megaf!
02:48 Megaf check the last 3 albums for a full coverage to the deep fry episode https://megaf.imgur.com/
02:51 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
02:59 Megaf 00:48 <Megaf> check the last 3 albums for a full coverage to the deep fry episode https://megaf.imgur.com/
02:59 Megaf ThomasMonroe: ^^^^
03:01 ThomasMonroe wow, if you knew the shock was coming, you could have cooked dinner instantly it looks like :D
03:02 Megaf hah, indeed
03:02 ThomasMonroe how was your Christmas?
03:03 Megaf It was alright
03:03 Megaf I traveled to Brazil to spend Christmas and New Year with my family
03:03 Megaf weather is good too
03:03 ThomasMonroe I have an Aunt from Brazil
03:03 Megaf nothing wrong really, all good
03:03 ThomasMonroe :)
03:04 Megaf ThomasMonroe: https://imgur.com/a/0Tapd This is a wallpaper I created around 4 months ago. It represents the Holy Trinity
03:05 ThomasMonroe :D niceley designed. Clean, yet effective
03:06 EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub
03:06 Megaf Thanks :)
03:06 ThomasMonroe wb EvergreenTree
03:06 ThomasMonroe yw Megaf
03:08 Megaf basically the shapes reassemble the cross, the circle the union, as in all is the same, all together. The golden colour means precious, important, holy, the white for peace
03:08 ThomasMonroe :) cool
03:08 Megaf So very Christian :P
03:08 * ThomasMonroe sighs
03:08 ThomasMonroe this next week is going to be hectic
03:08 ThomasMonroe for me at least
03:08 Megaf why?
03:09 ThomasMonroe we are moving house on Saturday :)
03:09 Megaf Ah
03:09 Megaf know the feeling
03:09 EvergreenTree I found an actually decent IRC client on Android
03:09 ThomasMonroe the sad part is that we have to leave our church :(
03:09 Megaf moved 6 times since 2014
03:10 ThomasMonroe heh
03:10 Megaf well, I will be online on my server, playing in fullscreen, cya later :)
03:10 ThomasMonroe cya Megaf
03:11 EvergreenTree ThomasMonroe: Wherever you are moving to I hope you will be able to find one you like
03:13 ThomasMonroe thanks, we have one that we are going to attend where our former Pastor grew up at
03:14 tumeninodes left #minetest-hub
03:16 EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub
03:17 * benrob0329 regrets everything
03:18 benrob0329 making 256 transparency masks, why did I think this was a good idea
03:18 EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub
03:19 CBugDCoder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fe11OlMiz8 My favorite 12 days of Christmas rendition XD
03:23 CBugDCoder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-47VmFopE another hilarious song by the same people
03:31 benrob0329 30 down, 125 left to go
03:32 CBugDCoder XD have fun
03:33 benrob0329 I've got a method going, should get the rest done in an hour or so
03:34 CBugDCoder well if you need a break watch the above videos they are hard not to end up laughing to
03:34 benrob0329 anyone have a kick-ass synth playlist or something?
03:39 benrob0329 http://freemusicarchive.org/mus​ic/Lee_Rosevere/Synthcronicity/
04:01 ThomasMonroe Night all
04:21 compunerd joined #minetest-hub
04:33 sofar FYI https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=10&amp;t=19148
04:41 sofar may be an interesting alternative for people looking for hosting
06:16 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
07:04 sofar geesh, holy cow
07:04 sofar someone is running a minetest server with over 7200 media files
07:05 nerzhul sofar, omg
07:05 sofar and they pointed their clients to the PRMS I run
07:05 sofar of course, the PRMS has like none of the files they need:
07:05 sofar 159/7330
07:05 sofar 96/6429
07:05 sofar 137/7248
07:05 sofar lol
07:06 sofar funny thing is, I have zero data to tell me what server they came from
07:07 sofar I don't think the HTTP request from the media server includes a referrer URL/URI
07:53 CWz joined #minetest-hub
10:41 nore joined #minetest-hub
11:26 lisac joined #minetest-hub
12:06 Fixer joined #minetest-hub
12:39 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
12:46 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
13:20 Aerozoic joined #minetest-hub
13:23 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
13:47 EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub
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14:01 Megaf building a very non optimized build here -march=k8 -mtune=generic -mfpmath=sse -O0
14:03 VanessaE -funroll_loops -fracing_stripes -ftype_r_sticker -fred_paintjob -fflame_job
14:03 VanessaE ;)
14:04 Jordach kek
14:05 VanessaE ^^ my standard dig at gentoo a;0
14:05 VanessaE :)
14:05 Megaf my flags are flags to not make it fast
14:05 VanessaE (and I"m allowed to make that joke because I ran gentoo at one time)
14:05 benrob0329 -fred_paintjob gives all nodes a red tint
14:05 VanessaE Megaf: dude.  joke.
14:05 Megaf I know :)
14:06 VanessaE benrob0329: nono that's -fhlsl_shaders  :P
14:06 benrob0329 Haha
14:06 benrob0329 This is true :P
14:09 Megaf I'm basically comparing O0, Os and Ofast
14:10 Megaf I want to see if Os will use less memory than O0 and if Ofast will be any fast than Os and O0, without using more memory
14:11 sfan5 -Os is mostly about code size
14:11 Megaf So the size of the binary, so it fits in a smaller media.
14:16 VanessaE Megaf:  a few MB size difference probably.
14:19 sfan5 hey, those are savings in the order of several floppy disks!
14:23 VanessaE heh
14:31 Megaf 8207064 bytes for O0 and Os bin/minetest
14:41 Calinou did you run `strip` on the binary?
14:42 Calinou also, you could use UPX if you really want to be frugal on file size, but it's not really worth it
14:42 Calinou (it's a tad slower to open, not noticeable on modern CPUs)
14:42 Calinou (distribution is going to be compressed anyway, so that's why there is no point)
14:54 Fixer back in my day i had to fit jabber messanger into the floppy
15:24 Jordach )))
15:27 * Jordach hits render again
15:31 srifqi joined #minetest-hub
15:32 Jordach https://youtu.be/sWjy8pfTjog
15:32 Jordach Megaf: ^
15:32 Jordach benrob0329: ^^
15:34 benrob0329 Jordach: need some interpolation on that role animation though
15:34 Jordach >minetest doesn't have interpol
15:34 Jordach :thinking:
15:34 benrob0329 Interpolate in blender, set to keyframes :^)
15:34 Jordach ew
15:35 benrob0329 It'd work
15:35 Jordach you can just see the server struggle with mapgen
15:35 benrob0329 Are you using something other than sqlite?
15:36 Jordach it's actual LuaJIT mapgen trees causing it
15:43 * Jordach doubles anim speed to 60fps
15:49 srifqi joined #minetest-hub
16:22 IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub
16:24 IhrFussel Hi guys ... I'm running the mod profiler for 10 hours now and I'm not sure if the server lag is really just caused by map loading ... after 10 hours I see many ABMs taking 10ms+ and some high globalsteps ... but it's not easy to see how much lag the globalstep actually causes when the code is running (most of the time it's just a return since X secs aren't over yet)
16:25 IhrFussel Looks like I will have to measure the dtime myself inside my running code and cannot rely on the profiler for that
16:26 IhrFussel Or rather µs before/after
16:45 paramat joined #minetest-hub
17:01 Megaf IhrFussel: Minetest is bad by design. The whole block/chunk think has to be redone from sratch
17:01 Megaf do you volunteer?
17:01 Jordach >bad by design
17:01 Jordach LUL
17:01 Jordach cubic chunks are the best
17:02 Megaf Jordach: They way it was was very good long time ago
17:02 Jordach current SQL forks can easily handle this
17:02 Megaf when we didnt have mods and stuff
17:02 Jordach it's simply DISK performance not upto scratch
17:02 Megaf then you drop a pooprly implemented mod stack into a not very optimized world stuff stack and you hang everything
17:02 Jordach running MT on an SSD helps
17:03 Megaf disagree
17:03 Megaf why is that Minetest Minimal runs without any problems?
17:03 Jordach it does
17:03 Jordach Megaf: there's nothing that ticks
17:03 Megaf it's just too many stuff for a single threaded thing to handle
17:03 Megaf the whole server hangs when loading chunks, period.
17:04 Megaf it shouldn't
17:04 Megaf That's bad design
17:04 Calinou did you tweak server settings for performance?
17:04 Calinou https://gist.github.com/Calinou/​683cb0748efe867be6e18f86f206a6b7
17:04 Calinou try these
17:04 Megaf very fast hardware mascarades the problem
17:04 Calinou (starting from line 40)
17:04 Megaf as I always say, coding for pwoerful hardware is easy
17:04 Calinou also set num_emerge_threads to at least 2
17:05 Megaf Calinou: that's for generating map
17:05 Megaf we are talking about map already generated and stored
17:05 Calinou yes, but the Performance section also affects loading
17:05 Calinou read it carefully :)
17:05 Megaf Calinou: too busy right now downloading Jordachs render and watching it :)
17:06 Megaf [download] Destination: Solar Plains Improved Flight System-sWjy8pfTjog.mp4
17:06 Megaf [download] 100% of 9.66MiB in 00:06
17:06 Calinou what quality is that? :P
17:07 Megaf (+) Video --vid=1 (*) (h264 1280x540 27.823fps)
17:07 Megaf -f 22
17:08 Megaf lets try 60 fps. -f 298
17:10 Megaf I never understood this fully full_block_send_enable_min_time_from_building = 0.0
17:11 Jordach Megaf: try the 1440p version
17:11 Jordach from my copy of Vegas Pro
17:11 Jordach :^)
17:12 Megaf Jordach: using nouveau driver here, wont happen
17:12 Calinou Megaf: it decreases block sending speed while someone is placing nodes. This predates block placement prediction
17:12 Megaf :P
17:12 Calinou it should probably be removed entirely
17:12 Calinou as we have block placement prediction since mid-2012
17:14 Megaf emergequeue_limit_total = 64000
17:14 Megaf emergequeue_limit_diskonly = 2048
17:14 Megaf emergequeue_limit_generate = 2048
17:14 Megaf what about those ^^
17:19 Calinou I've never tweaked these
17:19 Calinou try increasing these (at least doubling) and see what happens
17:22 Megaf besides, server never gets starved of IO
17:22 Megaf it's just a single thread using one full hardware thread
17:22 Megaf and everything hanging
17:22 Megaf again, bad design
17:23 Megaf Do I know how to fix? no, no idea
17:23 Calinou asynchronous design wasn't hip in 2010
17:23 Calinou I don't think anyone knows how to fix this
17:23 Megaf Rewriting would be a good start
17:24 paramat maybe open an issue to suggest block loading is in a separate thread? seems to me it should be
17:24 Calinou it wouldn't be Minetest then
17:24 paramat then you'll get feedback about the issues
17:25 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
17:25 Megaf paramat: we do have separate threads fro map loading, dont we?
17:25 Megaf though all other threads still waiting for this one to finish
17:25 paramat don't know
17:25 Megaf which kinda makes sense from some point of view
17:26 Megaf !title
17:26 MinetestBot Megaf: This Video Is 2D And 3D Simultaneously: the Pulfrich Effect - YouTube
17:26 * Megaf youtube -f 18 https://youtu.be/Q-v4LsbFc5c
17:26 benrob0329 Megaf: you'll want high quality
17:27 Megaf not enough RAM for that
17:27 Megaf Minetest taking all for itself
17:27 benrob0329 Good luck with the effect then
17:27 Megaf 1.2 GB and still hasnt finishing loading the server
17:27 Megaf I mean, connectint to the server
17:28 benrob0329 Thats a lot of ram for MT
17:28 benrob0329 Afaik anyways
17:30 IhrFussel Megaf, if map loading was in its own thread mods couldn't cause "map pausing" I'd say
17:31 IhrFussel Very simple to test: Do something HUGE with WE, walk around -> no map loading
17:32 IhrFussel Or do a big loop in globalstep and try to load map parts
17:32 benrob0329 Lua does have corutines, and does have threading libraries afaik
17:34 benrob0329 Really I *think* we need to be able to spawn custom async functions from Lua, such as mobs or worldedit rather than trying to make the whole mod system be multithreadded
17:34 IhrFussel To me it looks like map loading DEPENDS on the globalstep ... you cannot load map in between globalsteps AFAIK
17:36 IhrFussel That's exactly why locked/protected nodes can be dug client side before the server makes them re-appear
17:36 EvergreenTree joined #minetest-hub
17:36 benrob0329 Protected nodes should just be undigable by clients
17:37 IhrFussel Try to set the dedicated_server_step to 1 or so and dig a protected node...it will re-appear after 1 second and not right away
17:37 Megaf benrob0329: that video is nuts
17:37 Megaf very 3D
17:37 benrob0329 Which if node groups can be edited could be done by giving the player a custom group, assuming we can apply it to more than just the hand
17:38 benrob0329 Megaf: ikr
17:38 benrob0329 I had to go find a pair of sunglasses though, I wear prescription glasses so I dont really own any
17:39 benrob0329 Found an old pair of clipons though, worked ok
17:42 Megaf Thinking about going to the swimming pool
17:42 IhrFussel The digging of protection nodes was just an example which kinda confirms that the server doesn't send mapblocks in between steps ... mod lag really shouldn't affect the map loading, that's horrible...imagine you fall down a hole and suddenly stay MID-AIR because the server is lagging
17:44 Megaf IhrFussel: eh, that happens all the time
17:44 IhrFussel Because a mod is lagging the server* .. Megaf yes I know and it's time to eliminate that issue
17:44 Megaf good luck
17:45 Megaf I would if I knew how
17:45 Megaf but I can't code a single line of Java
17:45 * Megaf hides
17:46 IhrFussel Luckily it's c++ not Java but same here^^
17:47 Megaf interesting
17:48 Megaf I just set dedicated_server_step to 0.001 now I can no longer overtake the mapload
17:48 Megaf map loads faster than I can run
17:48 Megaf that confirms IhrFussel issue
17:48 Megaf mapload is locked to server thread
17:51 benrob0329 Its not necessarily bad that things happen on globalstep, its when you get too many long-running things on globalstep
17:51 benrob0329 And/or too slow of globalstep
17:52 benrob0329 Actually now that I think about it mapgen/map loading needs to be separate from globalstep, and we need custom async functions
17:54 IhrFussel The highest globalstep I have is this one and the measurements are completely fake since that code only runs every 15 secs not every step globalstep[1] .....................................  |         1 |   1603962 |       344
17:55 IhrFussel 0.3 ms average, 1.6 seconds max value ... those values don't help if the profiler counts every single step
17:56 IhrFussel So I added my own get_us_time() measurement and will see how much lag it really causes on average after restart
17:57 benrob0329 Idea: 3 threaded system
17:58 benrob0329 1 thread map loading, 1 map generation, 1 for everything else
17:59 sfan5 congrats you just described the current design
18:00 Megaf 15:22 <Megaf> again, bad design
18:00 Megaf 15:04 <Megaf> That's bad design
18:00 Megaf 15:01 <Megaf> IhrFussel: Minetest is bad by design. The whole block/chunk think has to be redone from sratch
18:00 Megaf Should I repeat that again?
18:00 benrob0329 sfan5: then things need to be done asynchronously, and on_generate needs to be passed to the mapgen thread
18:01 IhrFussel Same about ABMs I guess...does the profiler also count the times when ABMs don't mach the chances? ABM 'mobs_animal:rat spawning' ....................  |         1 |    172761 |     19521
18:01 benrob0329 In theory, anyways
18:01 sfan5 Lua is single-threaded, you can't do this
18:01 Megaf I will try very hard to not mention Python. But I don't promisse anything
18:01 Megaf o crap
18:01 * Megaf runs to the swimming pool
18:02 Megaf Minetest is an amazing piece of software
18:02 IhrFussel sfan5, so what you say is the engine waits for Lua on EACH mapblock loaded before it sends it to clients?
18:02 benrob0329 Lua is single threaded by default
18:02 Megaf the stuff it can do is trully magnificent
18:02 sfan5 wat
18:02 Calinou Megaf: that's why I decreased server step on my server a lot
18:02 Calinou (3× faster than default)
18:02 IhrFussel We are talking about making mapblock loading independent from Lua
18:03 sfan5 IhrFussel: when a MapBlock is generated it (obviously) has to wait for Lua to finish doing its stuff
18:03 Megaf It's a shame we are running into limitaions from our dependencies and past decisions. AKA Irrlicht and Lua
18:03 IhrFussel Not generate.....load
18:03 sfan5 that's why I said "wat"
18:03 Jordach Megaf: Lua is used in Garry's Mod and has no damn issues
18:03 Jordach same for Roblox
18:03 sfan5 lua is not involved in map loading
18:03 IhrFussel We are talking about loading mapblocks from disk/RAM
18:03 Megaf Jordach: so it's just bad design? :)
18:03 IhrFussel Then how can mods lag the map?
18:03 Jordach Megaf: it's called stop using 2008 potatoes
18:03 Megaf Jordach: Though I think Minetest is a lot more complex
18:04 sfan5 IhrFussel: block sending happens in the server step, which Lua can delay
18:04 IhrFussel Then remove it from the step, it's bad by design
18:04 IhrFussel Send blocks whenever a client requests them
18:04 sfan5 <sfan5> Lua is single-threaded, you can't do this
18:05 benrob0329 https://github.com/torch/th​reads/blob/master/README.md
18:05 benrob0329 http://lua-users.org/wiki/ThreadsTutorial
18:05 benrob0329 Lua can be threaded, its just not by default
18:05 sfan5 I'm not saying it's good design, but you can "just move it somewhere else"
18:05 benrob0329 I think that can be partially blamed by C99 not having threads
18:05 Megaf 55*
18:05 sfan5 benrob0329: good to know that all of Minetest's problems can be solved by googling 2 minutes and pasting the links here
18:05 Jordach C99 didn't expect multicore
18:06 Megaf really?
18:06 * Megaf googles
18:06 Megaf !g multicore c99
18:06 Megaf =/
18:06 sfan5 C99 has no threading capabilties built-in, but instead each OS had their own API
18:06 sfan5 I don't see how this matters though
18:07 Jordach sfan5: http://media.giphy.com/med​ia/DL4LEfi4PXos0/giphy.gif
18:07 IhrFussel Sending mapblocks as part of each step increases the overall load I'd imagine since the engine has to poll requests each step..unless I'm misunderstanding something
18:07 sfan5 nah it doesn't increase load
18:07 sfan5 it's just bad because all of the other stuff that happens can delay this
18:07 benrob0329 sfan5: good to know that my "two minutes of googling" still produced results that shows Lua can be threaded, not that it will solve MTs problems.
18:08 IhrFussel Well then it's still ba cause it can destroy server gameplay to an extent
18:08 IhrFussel bad*
18:08 benrob0329 Those tend to be more complicated than async functions, although that would probably help.
18:09 IhrFussel I'm pretty sure most players wouldn't mind lagging mods if they could still explore normally
18:12 benrob0329 Megaf: but seriously, Gmod has freaking world portals that track the player's POV implimented in lua
18:13 Megaf link?
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18:14 benrob0329 Megaf: https://github.com/MattJeanes/Doors
18:14 benrob0329 Take a wild guess what its used for :P
18:16 benrob0329 But gmod also has render to texture and proper client prediction for mods, so it'd be impossible in Minetest
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18:18 paramat sfan5 if lua is not involved in block loading (as opposed to chunk generation) why can't block loading be in a separate thread? is it only because of LBMs?
18:19 benrob0329 sfan5 said that block loading is on a separate thread
18:19 sfan5 paramat: block loading is in a separate thread
18:20 sfan5 but sending them to the client is in the serverthread, so affected by lua
18:21 benrob0329 So, if the networking was separate from the lua execution, thing might load faster?
18:25 IhrFussel Isn't ASIO doing exactly that? Making network operations async?
18:30 IhrFussel benrob0329, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6485
18:33 paramat (yes sorry, i meant 'why not in parallel')
18:35 IhrFussel The whole point of using another thread for map loading is defeated when that thread depends on the server thread anyway IMO, it's stupid
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18:46 * Jordach thought ASIO was this http://asio4all.com/
18:46 paramat well, it may be in another thread for other reasons
18:47 Darcidride_ joined #minetest-hub
18:50 IhrFussel The map loading thread is the exact same as the map generating thread... I only see 2 threads in top "Server" and "Emerge-0"
18:52 IhrFussel Emerge-0 seems to do the generating, loading and saving of mapblocks
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18:55 benrob0329 Generating should probably be separate from loading
18:55 benrob0329 on_generate being in a separate thread (mandate that its contents be thread safe?
19:11 IhrFussel Generating has the exact same problem as loading: If a mod lags the server no more mapblocks are sent ... I hope someone is able to fix that
19:16 Sokomine IhrFussel: so does it work reliable with no mods installed at all?
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19:19 IhrFussel Sokomine, it looked like the server still lagged when I tried it without any mods (except areas) but probably less? Mods definitely seem to make it worse cause the engine gets constantly "interrupted" when it tries to send blocks
19:21 Sokomine so it still lagged even if there was nothing to do? the entire world was unkown blocks?
19:22 IhrFussel No there was MTG still
19:22 Sokomine try without mtg. mtg as such has some lbms
19:22 Sokomine let it be a world really without any mods
19:30 Sokomine or at least eliminate all lbms, abms and such. try with a modified mtg
19:39 IhrFussel I'm trying to start a 2n server instance on my dedi via minetestserver --gameid minimal --worldname tw and get "connection error: aborted"
19:41 IhrFussel main.cpp:e2: int main(int, char**): A fatal error occured: Connection error
19:43 sfan5 trying to bind to same port?
19:46 IhrFussel sfan5, fixed it ... I forgot I had redis as DB in my test world.mt
19:52 Jordach why does using minetest.add_entity return userdata instead of an object ref
19:53 sfan5 that's an objectref
19:54 Jordach sfan5: and using ref.custom_field doesn't work
19:54 sfan5 ref:get_luaentity().custom_field
19:58 Jordach even though inside on_step and on_rightclick for entities get access to self.fiel
19:58 Jordach and self:objref_func
19:58 sfan5 don't ask me
20:12 paramat joined #minetest-hub
20:33 Fixer Jordach: "giphy.gif", is not direct link, requires js crap, tl;dw
20:33 Jordach ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
20:34 Fixer can this -----ers provide god damn direct link? they need to stop being a ----- and make internet great again
20:34 Fixer those*
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20:47 IhrFussel max_lag 0.5 with JUST minimal, no other heavy processes...load average is 0,20-0,30
20:52 sofar joined #minetest-hub
20:56 IhrFussel As soon as I dig something or place something the CPU of minetestserver goes high and causes some lag
20:56 IhrFussel What is the actual **** is wrong here
20:56 IhrFussel in*
20:59 sofar what are you actually running as minetestserver?
20:59 sofar what OS?
20:59 sofar what build?
20:59 sofar what kernel?
20:59 IhrFussel Stock Ubuntu 16.04
21:01 sofar is this a cloud host or a VPS or something?
21:01 sofar it sounds like you're running on a rPI lol
21:02 sfan5 it's a dedi actually
21:02 Calinou Fixer: videos are rarely provided as direct links
21:02 sofar is it just running the minetestserver? or tons of other stuff?
21:02 Fixer Calinou: it is a simple gif
21:02 Calinou gfycat and giphy only use the GIF format as a fallback, pretty much all users actually view videos :)
21:03 Calinou because friends don't let friends use GIF in 2017
21:03 sofar stock minetest from ppa ? self-built?
21:03 Fixer it is not like I would watch your ads, come on ;)
21:03 sofar Debug build?
21:03 Calinou uBlock Origin is going to be your friend for a long time though :)
21:03 Fixer just give me the f-ing direct link, i'm tired of waiting loading your slow js-shit
21:04 CWz ublock origin vs ABP
21:06 sofar IhrFussel: are you still on sqlite for map backend?
21:08 Calinou CWz: ABP is pretty much dead today, use uBlock Origin
21:09 Calinou praise gorhill :)
21:12 IhrFussel sofar, of course it's sqlite I cannot migrate to another easily...but I'm trying to find out the exact source of the lags...I'm watching top while I'm doing different things in the world
21:14 sofar how large is the map.sqlite?
21:15 sofar perhaps `perf top` or latencytop can help to point to the problem
21:15 sofar is your drive near full?
21:15 sofar what's the storage?
21:20 ThomasMonroe shivajiva, you on?
21:21 ThomasMonroe there is a player on ##SC-Economy wondering why you shutdown your skyblock server
21:23 IhrFussel sofar, perf top lists 36% ABMHandler::apply
21:23 IhrFussel Now 55% o.o
21:24 sofar that's expected
21:24 sofar ABM's are the worst thing ever
21:24 IhrFussel Everything below is < 3 %
21:24 IhrFussel Does minimal use ABMs?
21:26 sofar probably not, but I'm not sure
21:27 sofar it doesn't actually mean much unless those ABM's are causing mapblock changes
21:27 IhrFussel But my world is just running minimal right now, how can ABM be so high?#
21:28 sofar on my ITB server, the CPU is 90%+ ABMs
21:28 Fixer Calinou: iirc, you can watch video via direct link, no need to load that js junk
21:28 Calinou only as GIF fallback, I guess
21:28 Calinou (looks worse and is much less efficient)
21:29 sofar there's like 7 ABM's in minimal, lol
21:29 IhrFussel No I flew a bit around with fast and see 13% triLinearInterpolationNoEase
21:29 sofar that's movement code, I think
21:29 sofar that should just be CPU cycles without mapblock changes
21:30 IhrFussel 11% Noise::gradientMap3D
21:33 IhrFussel But that's only when I fly around the map which is to be expected I guess
21:33 IhrFussel As soon as I stop moving it only takes a few secs before ABM Handler is at the top again... so that seems to be the culprit?
21:35 sofar ABM's will always be at the top
21:36 sofar as a matter of fact, if they top out over 90% then that's good
21:36 sofar in a way
21:36 sofar it means all your server is doing is stuff that can't be avoided even if the server is idle
21:39 IhrFussel sofar, I changed all minimal ABM intervals to 300 and now they don't appear in perf top anymore
21:40 sofar excellent, try placing blocks and seeing what perf top now shows as top consumers
21:41 IhrFussel 5% CNodeDefManager::get, 3% __memcmp_sse2
21:43 sofar so reading of map data, no biggie
21:44 IhrFussel It's shocking how even just ONE ABM run every 5 minutes let's the % spike to 15
21:45 IhrFussel Should I run my real world now and watch again?
21:45 sofar better ABM's are run often but with low chance
21:46 sofar to reduce and spread the workload
21:46 sofar maybe look at latencytop
21:46 paramat triLinearInterpolationNoEase and gradientMap3D is 3D noise, it's known to be intensive
21:46 IhrFussel My test world max_lag is now 0.28
21:47 IhrFussel sofar, there is no latencytop... or do I need to specify it in perf?
21:48 sofar latency is a separate tool, written by a colleague of mine
21:48 sofar http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpa​ges/wily/man8/latencytop.8.html
21:48 IhrFussel Which package has it?
21:49 sofar I don't use ubuntu, sorry
21:49 sofar it's probably its own package?
21:55 IhrFussel I can only find this PPA but not sure what to type into apt-add-repository https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/latencytop
22:05 IhrFussel sofar, 16% copy_page ... something from the kernel
22:35 Jordach mfw https://i.imgur.com/wYdOeI9.png
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22:48 Sokomine joined #minetest-hub
22:51 Calinou Jordach: jetpack theft is a serious crime!
22:54 Jordach Calinou: Sony Vegas is now just called VEGAS
22:55 benrob0329 Blender is now just called...oh wait
22:55 benrob0329 :^)
22:55 Jordach Blender 2.79
22:55 Jordach :^)
22:56 Calinou I tried exporting glTF from Blender, to no avail
22:56 Calinou with both the Krhonos and Kuboman exporters :(
22:56 Calinou guess it's still beta-quality for now
22:56 Calinou (glTF 2.0, that is)
22:57 Jordach glTeam Fortress?
22:58 Calinou glRandomCrits
22:58 Calinou nah, it's a model format
22:58 Calinou (made by the Khronos group, same as OpenGL)
22:59 Jordach explains why it doesn't work
23:02 benrob0329 Jordach: because blender exporters in but a few formats suck? :^)
23:03 sofar IhrFussel: 16% copy_page? in perf top I assume?
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23:05 IhrFussel sofar, yes...now ~ 5% is that ok?
23:06 sofar not sure why copy_page even shows up that high, even at all
23:06 Fixer doom 1 finished (via brutal doom)
23:17 benrob0329 how would I use textures that are in a subdir of the main textures directory?
23:20 sofar just by their base name
23:27 Sokomine benrob0329: as long as mt is still beeing called mt ...:_)
23:29 IhrFussel sofar, copy_page is lower now ... 7% ServerEnvironment::ServerEnvironment
23:29 benrob0329 sofar: could not load image
23:30 sofar IhrFussel: copy_page is a kernel function - it points to slow memory
23:30 benrob0329 it'd be nice if I was told if it was an error or a filename problem
23:30 sofar 5% doesn't sound much but it is, I think
23:30 sofar benrob0329: don't you need 0.5-dev for that?
23:30 sofar is it even merged?
23:31 benrob0329 for texture subdirs?
23:31 benrob0329 I think I've seen it used, if not then this is going to be a cluttered texture dir
23:32 IhrFussel What is ServerEWnvironment? Anything particular that could cause lag there?
23:33 IhrFussel Although lag is very low right now (< 0.5 sec) ... it's higher when ABMHandler::apply appears in the list
23:34 benrob0329 forums seem to be down :-/
23:38 benrob0329 yup, can't use a subdir on stable
23:40 sofar IhrFussel: ServerEnv stuff is the main server thread
23:42 IhrFussel Is it normal that it's that "high"? copy_page is now at 2% by the way
23:43 sofar it shouldn't ever appear that high
23:43 sofar either it's doing way too many copy_page() calls, or they're taking way too long
23:43 sofar what kind of "dedicated" host is it?
23:45 IhrFussel Lots of kernel functions appear right below ServerEnvironment like clear_page ... it's a real dedi though just not the best
23:45 sofar what's `grep model.name /proc/cpuinfo |uniq` say?
23:46 sofar you're not running out of RAM, are you?
23:47 IhrFussel Now __memcpy_sse2_unaligned is at the top ... will post the results from that command in a few minutes
23:48 IhrFussel No, RAM usage is low (less than 50%)

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