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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-03-29

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Time Nick Message
00:04 paramat merged
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01:00 paramat #5476 , needs testing
01:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5476 -- Sneak glitch option: Add ability to climb onto a 2 node high ledge by paramat
02:32 epoch I'll test.
02:33 epoch first: git add remote paramat https://github.com/paramat/minetest
02:33 epoch then: git pull paramat
02:33 epoch then: git checkout pullup
02:33 epoch right?
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02:40 epoch hrm. got a segfault.
02:56 epoch can't make it do that again atm.
03:05 paramat thanks
03:05 epoch climbing up two block at a time works alright.
03:05 paramat i only know how to test PRs by another way of applying the patch
03:06 epoch (I have ulimit -c unlimited this time just in case it does segfault.)
03:06 epoch I wasn't even doing anything at the time of segfault. Window was on a different tag.
03:07 epoch can't climb up 3.
03:07 paramat nope, good
03:08 epoch every once in a while an error message shows up on the log, but that's probably unrelated.
03:08 epoch 2017-03-28 22:00:53: ERROR[Emerge-0]: EmergeThread::finishGen: Couldn't grab block we just generated: (-3,-3,3)
03:09 kaeza would it be possible to use the "Projects" feature in Github to track sneaking issues (and possibly CSM)? I think some folks may like that
03:11 paramat your error message seems unrelated
03:11 epoch a sneak elevator works.
03:11 paramat i don't know anything about that github feature
03:12 paramat the testing needed is more to check if this introduces bugs in other situations
03:12 paramat so far it seems ok
03:16 epoch if I let go of sneak during mid elevator climb, should I be falling slowly or normal speed?
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03:17 epoch I can stop myself sometimes just by hitting sneak while I'm falling facing the elevator.
03:17 epoch sometimes it just slows me down.
03:18 paramat sometimes there is a slow sinking
03:19 paramat behaviour may be slightly different to before, just as long as there is no problematic behaviour
03:22 paramat and another #5478 fairly trivial cleanup
03:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5478 -- Paramtype2: Add missing type CPT2_GLASSLIKE_LIQUID_LEVEL by paramat
03:23 VanessaE glass...liquid.  that reminds me, can a new drawtype for framed glasslike be added where there is no liquid at all?  i.e. just glass and frame, so that 256-color param2 colorization can be applied to it?
03:26 paramat well if this is merged, a different paramtype2 used with that drawtype could then activate colouring
03:26 paramat it would be an option within the same drawtype
03:27 paramat ^^ sofar if possible could you review? fairly simple
03:27 VanessaE I'm just thinking of RBA's "framed glass" mod that comes with technic modpack.  I wanted to convert that one over, but no dice.
03:29 paramat i think this must be MT's most hidden feature ... until now
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03:59 epoch running a server on my laptop if you want to join and test out the pullup change.
04:04 paramat i'm too busy but thanks
04:04 paramat game#1673 corresponding PR for mtgame, trivial
04:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1673 -- Glasslike_framed nodes: Add 'glasslikeliquidlevel' paramtype2 by paramat
04:12 paramat ^ both PRs tested together and they work
04:13 paramat another long english night of coding
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09:03 glut32 hi all
09:03 kilbith oh no, not you
09:04 kilbith get back to work, lazy ass
09:04 glut32 ah ah
09:05 glut32 I have problem to generate a minetest executable with irrlicht 1.9 on xcode
09:05 glut32 I have 3 links error about stl
09:06 glut32 I put a message on the forum : https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.ph​p?f=7&t=17119&p=260855#p260855
09:17 nerzhul irrlicht 1.9 is not released, i don't think we really support it
09:17 nerzhul i think you should talk with irrlicht developpers themselves
09:18 nerzhul it's not related to MT
09:33 glut32 ok
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11:34 nerzhul merging 5471
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13:06 VanessaE what was the reasoning behind forcing the minimap to be turned on, and can't be turned off with F9 unless it's turned on in the config, when CSM is enabled?
13:06 VanessaE apparently that "preview" mod forces it.
13:08 VanessaE and it's a blank minimap at that.
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13:38 red-004 the blank minimap is a bug
13:39 VanessaE the existence of it is a bug :P
13:39 VanessaE (for some users, turning minimap on costs FPS.  not sure if that's the case with my setup, I haven't checked recently)
13:39 red-004 as for why it forces minimap to be on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
13:39 nerzhul VanessaE: just disable preview mod
13:40 VanessaE nerzhul: I know I can do that, but that means altering my engine install.
13:40 nerzhul it will be disabled/removed at release to prevent those problems, but should be kept in master
13:40 VanessaE (or mt_game, whichever)
13:40 nerzhul VanessaE: you need CSM enabled ?
13:40 red-004 VanessaE, remove /clientmods/preview?
13:40 VanessaE I do.
13:40 VanessaE cheapie made a nice chat mod that reworks it to look like hexchat
13:40 red-004 link?
13:41 VanessaE with highlighting, colored nicks, and so on
13:41 VanessaE you would askk.
13:41 sfan5 nerzhul: it's still stupid that the default csm mod breaks some things
13:41 VanessaE https://github.com/cheapie/chat6
13:41 nerzhul sfan5: CSM doesn't break things itself
13:42 VanessaE anyway my point is, I don't like to modify the default install of something.
13:42 nerzhul and it's not default csm mod, but preview, but i don't found the bug on toggling minimap sometimes having blank map
13:42 sfan5 >it's not default csm mod, but preview
13:42 sfan5 that's what i meant
13:42 VanessaE nerzhul: if you have minimap disabled in your config, then F9 won't turn it off when "preview" turns it on
13:42 VanessaE that's breakage
13:42 VanessaE plus it costs you startup time on big servers
13:42 nerzhul VanessaE: it's nice that cheapie ate messages and uses red-004 work to enhance chat, it's the goal
13:42 red-004 werid I think I can turn the minimap off
13:43 nerzhul VanessaE: oh you mean the API doesn't care about settings ?
13:43 VanessaE nerzhul: I mean the key is ignored.
13:43 VanessaE I don't know how that plays with settings et al.  I just know what cheapie and I experienced. :)
13:43 nerzhul preview mod toggle minimap on using core.after(2) call
13:43 nerzhul but it doesn't toggle it more, after you are free to re-untoggle it
13:43 VanessaE apparently you are not.
13:44 VanessaE not if it's *disabled* in your global config
13:44 VanessaE I guess if it is, F9 is just ignored outright
13:44 red-004 I think it works for me
13:44 nerzhul okay, then the problem i think is key toggling is disabled and respect config, but API can enable it, whereas config doesn't want
13:44 nerzhul then it's simple, just don't permit to toggle minimap in the API call
13:44 nerzhul like the key binding
13:45 nerzhul wait a minute, i look at the current code for both parts
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13:45 VanessaE nerzhul: right, that sounds fair
13:45 VanessaE if disabled in settings, it shall be disabled permanently.
13:46 nerzhul yes ofc, i think this usecase is not handled by API
13:47 nerzhul yes it's that
13:47 nerzhul void Game::toggleMinimap(bool shift_pressed)
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13:47 nerzhul a verification is done here
13:47 nerzhul i will do same verification in minimap:show() call
13:47 nerzhul sfan5: permitted to push to master this fix in l_minimap.cpp ?
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13:48 sfan5 if its simple enough, sure
13:49 nerzhul sfan5: https://pastebin.com/kx5hu3KR
13:49 nerzhul okay for you ?
13:49 sfan5 if you remove the { and } yes
13:49 nerzhul okay i push it without brace and a little comment
13:50 nerzhul pushed
13:51 VanessaE thanks, nerzhul
13:51 VanessaE now I can tell the minimap to go to hell ;)
14:03 Fixer compiled just minutes before this in, reeeeeeee
14:03 sfan5 >not using pre-made build
14:04 nerzhul VanessaE: np
14:08 jin_xi so now you can turn of minimap and not suffer fps penalty for unused feature?
14:09 Fixer there were no penalty more or less if it was not turned on
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15:57 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
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17:53 zorman2000 Quick question, and sorry if wrong channel
17:54 zorman2000 With mod security enabled, require() aren't possible? Even if mod is trusted?
17:56 sfan5 making a mod "trusted" effectively disables all security
17:56 sfan5 so yes its possible
17:56 kaeza zorman2000, it is, but the global `require` is disabled. you must request an insecure environment
17:56 sfan5 huh
17:57 kaeza and use the `require` function provided by it
17:57 sfan5 indeed forgot about that
17:58 kaeza zorman2000, see, e.g. https://github.com/minetest-mo​ds/irc/blob/master/init.lua#L6
18:00 zorman2000 kaeza, I have, but it doesn't work for me.
18:01 zorman2000 I have actually copied your code and slightly modified
18:01 zorman2000 I do this: https://paste.ubuntu.com/24275928/
18:01 zorman2000 And get this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24275936/
18:01 zorman2000 My code is in init.lua
18:02 sfan5 you are using require inside your "Jumper" code
18:02 sfan5 it needs to use the insecure environment there too
18:02 kaeza ^
18:02 zorman2000 Ohhhhhh
18:02 sfan5 but to me it looks like you want to use dofile() instead anyway
18:03 zorman2000 Well, that is an external library, not something I wrote.
18:03 zorman2000 And I believe the require() return a reference to the file, does "dofile()" does that as well?
18:04 sfan5 i don't think so
18:04 kaeza zorman2000, require returns whatever the main chunk of the file returns. dofile does that as well
18:04 sfan5 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
18:04 sfan5 you will need to adjust the external library to work within minetests environment too
18:05 zorman2000 Got it
18:05 zorman2000 Thanks sfan5 and kaeza
18:05 kaeza sure
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18:38 Krock merging game#1558 and game#1670 in 15 minutes
18:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1558 -- 用creative.is_enabled_for替换minetest​.setting_getbool("creative_mode") by zaoqi
18:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1670 -- doors: add groups to the door craftitem by cx384
18:38 Krock 2nd one is somewhat trivial, no need for a 2nd approval
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19:12 paramat once i address the requests is #5478 ok to merge? if no objections i'll merge it in 3hrs along with game#1673
19:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5478 -- Paramtype2: Add missing type CPT2_GLASSLIKE_LIQUID_LEVEL by paramat
19:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1673 -- Glasslike_framed nodes: Add 'glasslikeliquidlevel' paramtype2 by paramat
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19:17 nerzhul paramat, you should have approvals paramat :), sorry i cannot add mine as i don't know this part very well
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19:28 paramat yes. sfan5 nore ^^ ok to merge once i address requests?
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19:43 paramat closed game#1672 , duplicate
19:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1672 -- [Revamp] We need a direction for Minetest Game
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20:44 Fixer catched fps drop bug without ever enabling minimap, will try with antijitter disabled
20:44 nerzhul Fixer, nice
20:45 Fixer this is bad
20:45 Fixer bug is random and hard to catch and drop is noticable
20:46 Fixer need to check day/night transition, had weird sence that it appeared after day/night change
20:49 Fixer mapblocks were loaded around pretty good/farmed some trees/used zoom/walked a bit -> sudden fps drop (evident even if looking at sky with zoom with minimum vrange
20:59 Fixer there were no mesh updates or anything, the curve was smooth, too smooth
21:02 epoch is there a setting to change length of day?
21:06 red-004[IRC] yes
21:07 red-004[IRC] iirc time_speed
21:13 Fixer videocard is in good health, not linked to this drop
21:16 Fixer vanessa also told me about this strange fps drop, but much earlier, no idea if it is same issue or different
21:18 epoch heh. setting time_speed to 10000 makes those celestial bodies move quickly.
21:20 epoch are there hooks that get called each sunrise and sunset?
21:21 Fixer fps_max = 0 engaged
21:21 kaeza epoch, no
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21:27 Fixer my sky fps is around 200... yet with bug it is only 70
21:27 Fixer will look more, very hard to catch it
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22:19 VanessaE has a way been added yet to prevent a dig/place action from being recorded in the rollback log?
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22:30 paramat i doubt it, i think the action is non-optional currently
22:31 Fixer my ooms in dreambuilder were caused by technic-worldgen iirc
22:32 VanessaE Fixer: caused by?  no.  happens with it installed?  perhaps, but afaik worldgen doesn't do anything memory-heavy, it just spawns ores.
22:32 VanessaE and those are mostly done directly by the engine anyway
22:32 VanessaE but my last two OOMs were in mesecons, of all places.
22:34 Fixer VanessaE: technic-worldgen with "OOM error from mod 'kek' in callback environment_OnGenerated(): not enough memory"
22:34 Fixer VanessaE: same for darkage
22:35 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/24277287/
22:35 Fixer VanessaE: lua mem usage is up to 80mb and then OOM with technic-worldgen
22:35 VanessaE not in this case, Fixer.
22:36 VanessaE pretty sure environment_Step is not technic.
22:36 Fixer i was testing in clean map
22:36 Fixer 2017-03-29 23:35:55: ERROR[Main]: Current Lua memory usage: 984 MB
22:37 VanessaE that ^ was on my Dreambuilder Survival server./
22:39 Fixer VanessaE: anyway welcome to the OOM club
22:39 VanessaE HAH!
22:40 VanessaE the sad part is over the past couple of months, I've been working to reduce the memory usage of the modpack.  guess it wasn't enough :P
22:43 Fixer VanessaE: somewhere in 0.4.12-13 I had OOM on default game after about record breaking 8 hours of nonstop walking
22:45 nore Fixer: default game does use luavm a bit, doesn't it?
22:45 nore or at least perlin map
22:46 nore imho there is very probably a leak somewhere
22:47 Fixer nore: i had it only once
22:47 nore hmmmm
22:51 paramat looking at technic worldgen ..
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22:52 paramat it does use lvm and doesn't use the data buffer optimisation
22:55 paramat .. for sulfur
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22:57 paramat there are some new engine oregen types that could probably be used instead for sulfur
22:58 paramat where do the ores registered in mg.lua get generated?
22:58 VanessaE in nore's mg mod probably :)
22:58 paramat also, when i looked at darkage that also needed optimisation
22:58 VanessaE (which is not in use on my servers)
22:59 sofar hey, novel idea, let's make bronze out of iron and copper
22:59 VanessaE sofar: blame pilzadam for that.
22:59 VanessaE I said we should import tin and do it right.
22:59 paramat ah mg mapgen ok
23:00 VanessaE sofar: I would very much like to see moreores' tin imported into mt_game and the bronze recipe adjusted accordingly.
23:00 paramat i would rather bronze had not been added to mtg, should have been a mod
23:00 VanessaE it was.
23:00 VanessaE moreores.
23:01 VanessaE gold and copper were imported from there, and then that stupid recipe
23:01 sofar VanessaE: either remove bronze entirely or add tin, yes
23:02 VanessaE hm, wiki says bronze is 12 percent tin..   so 8 copper + 1 tin == 9 bronze.
23:03 VanessaE if you wanted to be realistic (or say 2:1 if you wanted to keep it game-like)
23:03 paramat i'll make an issue in technic about the data buffer optimisation, it's easy to do
23:04 paramat adding tin just extends the mess
23:04 VanessaE mess?
23:05 VanessaE hm, bell bronze is 4:1, that's more reasonable for a game.
23:05 paramat if we can remove bronze from mtg that would be good, but may be difficult
23:06 paramat i mean, tin does not seem basic enough to be in mtg, and would only be added to sort out bronze which should not have been added
23:07 VanessaE nah, it's fairly basic
23:07 VanessaE I forget what all it's used for in the real world though
23:07 VanessaE (aside from cans and foil :P )
23:07 epoch tin?
23:07 VanessaE yeah.
23:07 epoch solder.
23:08 epoch cans are either iron or aluminum.
23:08 epoch "o.
23:08 VanessaE "tin can" is a phrase here.
23:08 epoch "tin" foil is aluminum too.
23:08 VanessaE like "tin foil" yeah
23:08 epoch but then again wool is made out of cotton in minetest.
23:09 VanessaE right, so it's not like it has to necessarily be realistic :P
23:10 epoch i thought lead would be good to add.
23:10 VanessaE technic has thatr.
23:10 VanessaE -r
23:10 epoch can be used for radiation resistant armor.
23:10 VanessaE used for shielding, and eventually for batteries (if it isn't already)
23:11 epoch heh. or uranium? :D
23:11 VanessaE that too :)
23:11 epoch radioactive minerals would need the lead armor to mine without dying and could be used to make really big explosions?
23:11 epoch TNT 2.0
23:12 epoch and would degrade into lead eventually.
23:14 sofar epoch was killed in the study with the tin chandelier
23:15 sofar removing bronze and copper would make sense, but it'll be rough on existing singleplayer worlds
23:15 sofar adding is a little less harsh
23:15 VanessaE removing copper would be disastrous
23:15 VanessaE technic relies on that metal heavily
23:15 sofar yeah, I'm more of a fan of just adding tin
23:16 VanessaE (I doubt Calinou would be likely to import those metals back into moreores)
23:16 epoch do they have a recipe for crafting circuit boards out of sand?
23:16 Fixer we have a hard time finding a use for bronze...
23:16 sofar yes, there's a way to craft silicon
23:16 VanessaE epoch: actually, silicon is derived from sand and copper, in mesecons, I think, which is then used to make ICs
23:16 Fixer nevermind
23:17 VanessaE sofar: if you're gonna add tin, bring silver and mithril with it, so that moreores can be deprecated entirely.
23:17 VanessaE (they're not super-common, so it's not like rainbow caves would really be a problem)
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23:23 paramat silver and mithril no thanks, no good reason for those
23:23 Fixer VanessaE: to default game?
23:24 epoch silver is in solder too sometimes.
23:24 paramat i certainly would not want to remove copper. adding tin ore is ok i guess
23:24 VanessaE paramat: what good reason is there not to add them?
23:24 Fixer VanessaE: add them were?
23:24 paramat avoiding unecessary bloat
23:24 VanessaE Fixer: to mt_game.
23:24 VanessaE bloat?  um, we're only talking about 1 or 2kB here topc
23:24 VanessaE tops*
23:25 twoelk don't put mithril into mtg. it might have similar issues like nyancats as it was made up by a fantasy author
23:25 paramat a good reason is needed, 'so we can deprecate moreores' is not
23:25 VanessaE twoelk: it was?
23:25 VanessaE oh I see
23:25 VanessaE (LOtR)
23:25 paramat the amount of additional code is irrelevant
23:25 Fixer i'm fine with current ores, i want coloured clay badly
23:26 VanessaE Fixer: unified bricks mod.
23:27 VanessaE paramat: my reasoning is simply that copper and gold came from moreores, and now tin is on the plate, so to speak.
23:27 Fixer bronze is rarely used, i doubt tin and mithrill is that much needed
23:27 VanessaE that's three out of five.
23:27 Fixer but
23:27 paramat no good reason not to add something is not a good reason to add something
23:27 VanessaE wouldn't it make sense to bring all five over (and rename mithril I suppose)?
23:27 Fixer if there will be some sort of automation in mtg... then it can be viable topic
23:27 nore hmmm why don't we just heavily extend the metal industry?
23:28 Fixer nore: to what? there is not automation or anything in mtg, just decor
23:28 nore of course there needs to be a direction chosen for that
23:28 VanessaE a long time ago, RBA and I had this idea of a "basic metal primitives" mod
23:28 VanessaE maybe something that could go into minetest
23:29 nore that would be, I guess, industrial or late-medieval/pre-industrial
23:29 VanessaE it would supply sheets, rebar, ingots, lumps, strips, and one or two other items, one for each metal registered.
23:29 paramat having 3 out of 5 ores from a mod is obviously no good reason to add the rest, we added the ones that had good reason to be added
23:29 VanessaE spools of wire too
23:30 Fixer is this some kind of trolling?
23:30 VanessaE (the idea being to eliminate the need for metal strips and spools of wire in homedecor, as well as some stuff in technic, and steel mod, and whatever else we weren't thinking of)
23:30 paramat each extra ore slows down mapgen and makes the mapgen code more complex to work with, so we need to keep mtg to basic essential ones
23:31 nore paramat: does it slow it a lot?
23:31 VanessaE paramat: wouldn't lots of ores slowing down the mapgen suggest that the mapgen is in need of a rewrite?
23:31 epoch the mapgen code doesn't just loop over ore types?
23:31 VanessaE and no, it doesn't.
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23:31 VanessaE even dreambuilder's mapgen isn't very slow, and it does a hell of a lot more than just ores.
23:31 paramat no not a lot, and no oregen does not need a rewrite, hmmmm coded it well
23:32 nore also: would per-biome ores make mapgen heavier or lighter?
23:32 twoelk tin can be used for pewter -> dishware
23:32 VanessaE nore: per-biome ores...such as coal and iron in desert stone?
23:32 nore VanessaE: I mean, ores that would spawn only in specific mapgen biomes
23:32 VanessaE ah
23:32 epoch is pewter tin and silver?
23:32 nore you say the biomes they are allowed to spawn in the registration
23:33 paramat i'm not arguing about a significant slowdown, just stating that a good reason is needed to add an ore
23:33 VanessaE epoch: tin, antimony, copper, lead
23:33 twoelk I would suggest to model ore usage on the bronze age
23:33 sofar well so, there's no right or wrong here
23:34 sofar as long as we improve
23:34 VanessaE paramat: my best argument is that deprecating moreores means one less mod for users to go looking for when they want to get many of the existing mods to work.
23:34 sofar small improvements are easier to cope with than large ones
23:34 sofar so, a small increment would be to add tin and fix the bronze recipe
23:34 sofar you can't get much smaller than that
23:34 VanessaE +1
23:34 sofar another small change would be to remove the bronze recipe
23:35 sofar but that would remove bronze blocks from being obtainable
23:35 VanessaE which would mean removing some tools also
23:35 VanessaE (not that I'm against that)
23:35 sofar right
23:35 sofar plus it would require us to add aliases to remove them
23:35 sofar which is bad
23:35 nore it's easier to add something that to remove them
23:36 epoch or just save the removal until the planned 'break everything, but only once' update.
23:36 * twoelk lives in a place with old copper roofs, wich appear green though
23:36 VanessaE basically, I'm an "inclusionist".  to me, one should need little reason to add something, and a pretty good reason to exclude something, and an even bigger reason to delete something.
23:37 paramat i'm ok with adding tin, removing bronze now would be a nightmare
23:37 paramat VE that's why dreambuilder is a monster :]
23:37 VanessaE heh no
23:38 VanessaE dreambuilder has a different philosophy from mt_game :)
23:38 VanessaE part of it's point is to ADD ALL THE MODS! and if there are problems, sort them out :)
23:38 VanessaE its*
23:38 paramat little reason to add something leads to a bloated monster, mtg would become a nightmare
23:39 epoch heh. >dream<builder being a nightmare.
23:39 paramat ok i accept dreambuilder is something different, sorry
23:39 VanessaE "little reason" could be as little as "this seems nice, and it's not a problem to have it"
23:39 VanessaE in other words, who would care, honestly, if mt_game had a thousand nodes, if it still ran well?
23:40 paramat we would, you're not a dev
23:40 VanessaE even "if it still ran well"?
23:40 paramat and it would load slower
23:40 Fixer sofar: rename bronze to glucydur :trollface:
23:40 paramat yes even if it ran well
23:40 epoch anything added is something more to maintain.
23:40 * VanessaE shrugs
23:41 Fixer https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?668475-Necr​o-Is-an-Iron-Copper-alloy-possible-(and-useful-)
23:42 Fixer about minetest load times, what you need is a benchmark
23:42 paramat it would be fine if there is a good reason for a thousand nodes, but there isn't (yet)
23:43 VanessaE paramat: the whole point is that if something runs well, despite being "bloated", and wouldn't really run any better without the "bloat", then the "bloat" is not a problem.
23:43 VanessaE and if adding stuff means less maintainable code, that's not the fault of the stuff, that's the fault of the coder.
23:44 Fixer paramat: iirc you can add like 100 more nodes and you will hardly notice any difference in load times
23:44 twoelk one reason against is the need to memorize a plethora of recepies
23:44 Fixer at least when I did that test with wool in moreblocks
23:44 VanessaE one of the devs here, probably pilz, benchmarked it once
23:44 VanessaE 32000 nodes took only a few seconds to render
23:44 VanessaE something like that
23:44 VanessaE the problem isn't the number of nodes, it's the amount of media that has to be used with them,
23:45 VanessaE (which is why my mods try to rely on small textures and references to existing stuff)
23:45 epoch grayscale + tint could replace some item pictures and block textures.
23:45 twoelk simplify textures then and reduce the amount of tiny files ;-P
23:45 VanessaE twoelk: to be fair, aren't there already enough recipes in mt_game to need a basic crafting guide as it is?
23:46 epoch I use the minetest wiki as a crafting guide when playing mtg.
23:46 twoelk VanessaE: indeed
23:47 twoelk not a bad thing in itself though
23:48 VanessaE so I'm not saying bloat mt_game out with thousands of nodes.
23:48 ^v joined #minetest-dev
23:48 VanessaE I'm saying that a few nodes here and there aren't going to negatively affect user experience, and at the same time, doing so means less dependencies for third-party mods.
23:49 VanessaE if done right, there is no down-side.
23:52 paramat adding content always makes maintenance harder
23:52 VanessaE if it does, you're doing it wrong.
23:53 Fixer bronze tools were always alien too me, I don't know what to expect from them /need to look in code/
23:53 VanessaE fixer, I think the logic was that they're slightly better than steel tools or something
23:53 paramat you're arguing that a good reason is not needed for adding lots of extra content. an absence of a huge problem is no good reason to add lots of unnecessary stuff
23:53 Fixer VanessaE: and thats the problem
23:53 Fixer VanessaE: it is very costly
23:54 VanessaE paramat: no, I am arguing that one shouldn't need a lot of reason to add a little content.
23:54 paramat 100 nodes is ok if there's good reason for them
23:54 twoelk bronze tools belong to human culture. Mese is for the alien element :-D
23:54 paramat 32000 nodes makes a game load very slowly
23:54 VanessaE paramat: pilzadam disproved that.
23:55 MrIbby joined #minetest-dev
23:55 twoelk the mtg recipe was one of the first things I needed to get used to in minetest and which I found annoyingly wrong
23:55 paramat i agree a few nodes is fine, but, there has to be a reason for them, we can't be too carefree about throwing everything in
23:56 VanessaE but again, no one's suggesting to add thousands or even dozens of nodes, just three instead of one.
23:56 twoelk argh mtg bronze recepe
23:56 twoelk uhm
23:56 VanessaE (well, I guess it would be six counting blocks, but you get my point)
23:56 * twoelk should go to bed
23:56 paramat i mean amount of media
23:57 Fixer I propose to make a bronze tools valuable... in different way, not faster than steel (or even slower), but much more durable (like 2x durable than steel)
23:57 twoelk eek
23:57 Fixer omg
23:58 Fixer i think i've catched fps drop bug again, now with antijitter disabled
23:58 twoelk it's iron-bronze-steel in real life
23:58 paramat adding stuff always makes code less maintainable, that has nothing to do with bad coding
23:58 twoelk where steel could be iron with a pinch of coal
23:59 Fixer we have a bug :(
23:59 Fixer i'm really sure now
23:59 twoelk to be honest code should not be the argument here but gameplay
23:59 paramat even if bloat is not a problem, it still needs a fairly good reason to be added
23:59 Fixer it is not minimap related, not antijitter related

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