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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-01-08

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Time Nick Message
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02:10 lhofhansl #4998 is ready for merging
02:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4998 -- Get neighbor from same map block if possible in ABMHandler by lhofhansl
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02:48 paramat ok. i had a quick look, will look again
02:56 paramat aha it's approved
02:58 paramat i think nrzkt would be happy with #4965 but can anyone else review?
02:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4965 -- Map generation limit: Fix checks for block/sector over-limit by paramat
02:59 paramat hmmmm in case you are interested to look, the recursive mapgen prototype is here #5005
02:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5005 -- Recursive refining mapgen API prototype by MillersMan
03:19 hmmmm hey guys
03:19 hmmmm i appreciate all the stuff you're giving me to review
03:19 hmmmm but i don't know if i'm going to do it all
03:20 hmmmm i've been thinking a lot about it lately, and I think I'm pretty much done with minetest
03:21 paramat no problem if you don't feel like reviewing
03:21 hmmmm there's just nothing here for me
03:21 hmmmm i don't play minetest, i don't enjoy developing it, i don't enjoy the struggles of having to keep up with a landscape that's constantly changing
03:22 hmmmm really a lot of people making a lot of changes all at the same time and nothing is coordinated, but that's the nature of an open source project that accepts outside contributions
03:22 KaadmY my feeling exactly
03:22 hmmmm i can completely understand why celeron did buildat and understand why it's a private thing
03:23 hmmmm i feel the exact same way except i don't have the energy required to start my own all of a sudden and it certainly doesn't make sense to create yet another block game
03:23 KaadmY unrelated, does anybody know of any FLOSS C/C++ physics engines?
03:23 est31 buildat uses bullet, i think
03:23 KaadmY bullet and ode are basically the only ones
03:24 KaadmY buildat is irrlight+bullet iirc
03:24 KaadmY urho3d*
03:24 est31 yes
03:24 KaadmY urho3d has ode
03:24 KaadmY i think
03:24 hmmmm what's ode?
03:24 KaadmY Open Dynamics Engine
03:24 KaadmY another physics engine
03:25 hmmmm if the 3d engine already has a physics engine included, why would buildat use a different one?
03:25 KaadmY i'm looking at qu3e, seems to have some errors working on linux though due to compilation errors..
03:31 paramat hmmmmm enjoy your break, but no need to burn bridges, you can always return if you feel like it. when you're away you are very much missed
03:33 hmmmm yea, it's just that right now my role along with many others' with MT is that they're another cog in the machine
03:33 paramat i have a request, please could you finish up a loose-end sometime (no rush)? settable dungeon parameters, i'm not sure anyone else knows how to implement that, i don't
03:33 hmmmm as an outside contributor you initially get the satisfaction that you added what you wanted to add
03:33 hmmmm but then you get to become a "core developer" which means you start having to worry about other things that you aren't focused on
03:34 hmmmm you don't have time/energy to focus on the things you want to
03:34 hmmmm and then when you do, you realize you really don't even care about them anymore because you don't even personally use it
03:34 hmmmm it's much closer to a programming *job* than a hobby
03:35 hmmmm you're lucky if you get a chance to create something and have it stay there for a few months before somebody else comes along and changes it all underneath your feet
03:36 hmmmm so really come to think of it these are two distinct complaints
03:40 paramat open source dev is tough going
03:41 paramat since you have some holiday coming, is it possible you could finish any small loose-ends before having a long break?
03:41 hmmmm really i could've done it last week
03:41 hmmmm but i just open my IDE, stare at it, and wonder how to even start
03:41 hmmmm and then go do something different
03:47 paramat i mean small and easy, sorry, i really don't want to ask for anything that takes an effort. i got the impression dungeon params was very easy to make settable
03:48 hmmmm it is
03:48 hmmmm i don't even remember how i did this
03:49 hmmmm mapgens take their MapgenFoobarParams, i could've sworn while i was doing this i changed it to take a Settings *
03:49 paramat i try to avoid rationalising my dev involvement, it's weird because i'm actually someone who prefers to work alone :]
03:49 hmmmm ahh there was a problem
03:49 hmmmm paramat, trust your gut
03:49 hmmmm i think i prefer to work alone too
03:50 paramat gut development
03:51 paramat actually i get the feeling you have tied up almost all your loose-ends already
03:51 hmmmm no there are lots of loose ends
03:51 hmmmm you're right, the dungeon parameters are one
03:51 KaadmY i like developing guts
03:51 hmmmm hell i didn't even fix that unit test that you were having trouble witrh
03:51 KaadmY class Gut {}
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04:29 paramat good grief :]
04:44 * paramat creates a catacomb realm deep underground by setting 27 dungeons per chunk
04:54 paramat take that MC fortress
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06:10 Zeno` paramat, https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=10&t=10376
06:10 Zeno` it took a lot of hard work, planning and underground sources of wood ;)
06:11 Zeno` Macros is me (aka oneZ). I had to change my nick to hide from my players lol
06:11 Zeno` 0, -30912.5, 0
06:11 Zeno` I don't think I'll ever do it again
06:17 paramat looking
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06:19 Zeno` which is why I was/am so passionate about underground torches. We built lots of forests. None of us knew that we could grow saplings without torches so we used torches for all saplings on the way down
06:19 paramat nice skin
06:20 Zeno` haha thanks
06:20 Zeno` I made it myself
06:20 Zeno` I tried to get the beard looking ok but it was hard so in the end I just said "meh"
06:22 paramat i'm hoping there will be, and will try to get, an option for 'grow with torches at normal speed'
06:22 Zeno` we had heaps of fun
06:23 Zeno` there was no point in it of course... we just made a goal and went for it
06:24 paramat lucky MT world isn't as big as some want it
06:25 Zeno` well yeah lol
06:26 paramat that's what i like about 31000, it's a reasonable distance
06:26 Zeno` yeah
06:26 Zeno` and it takes a LONG time to make a proper mine to that depth
06:27 Zeno` i.e. one without vertical shafts (but they were allowed with ladders)
06:28 Zeno` there are not a lot of vertical shafts though
06:28 Zeno` one day I might walk down again
06:28 paramat yes it's reasonable vertically, and not too close horizontally, just right
06:28 Zeno` when I have a month or so spare
06:32 Zeno` we mainly discouraged them because we felt it was cheating in some way
06:32 Zeno` so mostly there are stairs
06:32 Zeno` but sometimes we did use them hehe
06:32 Zeno` below -15000 I had caverealms active
06:33 Zeno` which made it easier in some ways and harder in other ways
06:34 Zeno` i.e. even though the caverns are huge we still had to make a safe way down and a way to walk back up
06:34 paramat nice
06:34 Zeno` gave us something to look at that was different as well
06:35 Zeno` I guess that was the main thing haha
06:35 Zeno` 3 months digging and everything looking the same... it gets tedious
06:36 Zeno` I'd like to see some kind of caverealms in the official game actually
06:36 Zeno` to add interest deep down
06:36 Zeno` I modified caverealms so they were different every -5000 or so
06:37 Zeno` crystal lined caves, different "biomes" etc
06:37 Zeno` it might be out of scope to MTG I dunno
06:38 Zeno` but keeping interest is cool
06:39 paramat well i intend to make decoration code work in caves
06:40 paramat then we can add some decoratins
06:40 Zeno` that's a start :)
06:40 paramat (decorations)
06:40 Zeno` biomes for different depths might be cool as well
06:40 paramat yeah
06:40 Zeno` maybe based on noise as well as depth
06:42 paramat i'm thinking decorations will be placable on ceilings or floors, for stalactites etc
06:42 Zeno` yup
06:44 Zeno` caverealms has those and I also modded it so that the inside of the caverns could form a "shell"
06:44 Zeno` e.g. a shell of coal blocks or crystal or whatever
06:45 Zeno` down deep there were obsidian lined caves (slowed you down getting into them heheh)
06:45 celeron55 hmmmm is kinda wrong frankly; nothing prevents anyone from just doing their own thing as a core developer and also i didn't attempt buildat because of non-coordination in minetest
06:46 celeron55 that's just blaming other things for one's own lazyness
06:46 * Zeno` looks at logs to see what c55 is referring to
06:47 celeron55 and lack of imagination
06:51 celeron55 also probably a matter of not having energy for programming after a day job of programming; it's hard to accept that a human isn't really capable of more than that but the matter of the fact is that many of the "minetest developer heroes" are students or unemployed 8)
06:51 thePalindrome Aye
06:52 celeron55 including me
06:59 Zeno` I dunno how far we'd get without outside contributions
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06:59 Zeno` seems to me like they're needed
07:01 Zeno` any objections to merging #4998?
07:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4998 -- Get neighbor from same map block if possible in ABMHandler by lhofhansl
07:22 hmmmm i'm not saying that we go without outside contributions
07:23 hmmmm i'm just saying that, at a personal level, it's like a firehose
07:23 hmmmm so many pending changes and so many different people changing the carpets in this same house
07:23 hmmmm i'm on a ladder trying to change a lightbulb :p
07:24 hmmmm i can't actually pin this on any one single contributor, it's just that as a whole, it feels like the whole rug is being pulled out from underneath me
07:24 hmmmm too many changes, too many things going on, too much for me to keep track of
07:26 hmmmm i never said buildat is because of non-coordination, but it's like your own space to do completely your own thing isolated from anybody wanting to do something a different way or whatever, and you can focus 100% of attention on what you want to
07:35 Zeno` it was like that when you were hyperactive as well, hmmmm
07:36 Zeno` we'd go to sleep and wake up to a different landscape :P
07:36 Zeno` (not saying you did anything wrong)
07:37 Zeno` will merge #4998
07:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4998 -- Get neighbor from same map block if possible in ABMHandler by lhofhansl
07:42 Zeno` anyway, since 3/4 of us seem to be burnt out the project needs the outside contribs
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09:22 Zeno` nrzkt, is #4985 finished
09:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4985 -- Environment & IGameDef code refactoring by nerzhul
09:22 Zeno` if it is I'd like to merge it before I go to sleep
09:22 Zeno` assuming that nobody objects in the meantime
09:23 Zeno` I see that hmmmm asked a question which you replied to and he didn't reply to your reply so I can only assume that your answer satisfied him
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09:24 * Zeno` will merger #4985 before he goes to sleep (maybe 3 or so hours) if there are no objections
09:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4985 -- Environment & IGameDef code refactoring by nerzhul
09:25 Zeno` assuming nrzkt confirms that it's finished :P
09:26 An0n3m0us heh
09:27 hmmmm Zeno`, I didn't really get the response
09:28 An0n3m0us yeah, hmmmmm
09:28 hmmmm widening the scope of an object just to satisfy one cast to server or whatever is not... a very good way to clean up code
09:28 hmmmm is this supposed to be a cleanup or a messup
09:28 An0n3m0us heh
09:28 Zeno` I don't know
09:29 An0n3m0us since its your code
09:29 hmmmm refactoring requires brainpower
09:29 Zeno` didn't it irritate you that IGameDef* were cast in every function they were used before?
09:29 Zeno` personally I found it confusing
09:29 hmmmm this genuinely requires mental effort to make a better interface
09:29 hmmmm alright so, switching over to files changed tab
09:29 Zeno` this is changing the explicit cast to an implicit one (by the function call itself)
09:29 hmmmm ctrl+f for (Server *)
09:30 hmmmm exactly two places
09:30 Zeno` and (Client *) ?
09:30 hmmmm one is in nerzuhl's recent change
09:30 hmmmm where he casts an igamedef to send a packet from inside the wrong object
09:30 hmmmm PlayerSAOs should not be sending packets.  i'm sorry
09:31 hmmmm and another one (i'll admit this is my fault) in EmergeThread
09:31 Zeno` I guess I just don't think it makes sense that IGameDef* objects can be cast willy nilly
09:31 hmmmm does it ever make sense to have an EmergeThread without a Server gamedef?
09:31 hmmmm me neither
09:31 hmmmm and oh trust me
09:31 hmmmm i'd like to clean up the casts
09:32 hmmmm but that doesn't involve changing every instance of IGameDef to Server or Client
09:32 hmmmm it involves changing the interface so it perhaps doesn't need a certain kind of gamedef
09:32 nrzkt in fact, not every instance was changed, just required instances
09:32 hmmmm so for example let's look at what could genuinely be done with the EmergeThread
09:33 hmmmm what does it use a Server for?
09:33 hmmmm to get a ServerMap
09:33 nrzkt grep -R "IGameDef \*" ../src | wc -l                                                                                                       clientenv_split
09:33 nrzkt 200
09:33 hmmmm why does it need a *server* map?
09:33 hmmmm because an EmergeThread can generate or load map
09:33 hmmmm a ClientMap can only store map in memory
09:33 hmmmm well i mean get map from memory
09:34 nrzkt and why ClientEnvironment needs a Client ? Because he shuld have access to functions client side only, and why ServerEnv require server ? To access to server functions.
09:34 hmmmm so does it make sense to change EmergeThread to optionally allow a non-saveable GameDef?
09:34 hmmmm but do either of those need a Client?
09:35 Zeno` well I don't know offhand, but IGameDef is, imo, already a mess
09:35 hmmmm see I can't even figure out what the change was there because you did both a split of Environment and the IGameDef change in the same commit
09:35 Zeno` so splitting things up makes sense doesn't it?
09:35 hmmmm sure, i suppose splitting the two environments makes sense, on the face of it
09:35 hmmmm but i'm not sure what the advantage of it is that we need to break all other 165 pull requests
09:36 hmmmm trust me
09:36 hmmmm i would have done stupidly simple obvious refactoring crap such as this a loooooooooong time ago if the cost was low enough for it to make sense
09:36 nrzkt hmmmm, in fact i can do a simple PR to split, rebase this PR with it after merge. In fact many PR always require a rebase, and there is very very little number of them changing environment and many of these where merged recently
09:37 Zeno` i need to eat. I'll scroll up when I get back
09:37 An0n3m0us bye
09:37 nrzkt but if you want 2 PR, one to split and 1 to do the GameDef changes, i can, if that make things cleaner
09:37 hmmmm that would be a huge improvement
09:38 nrzkt okay let me 5 mins to do the split PR
09:38 hmmmm i dunno about everybody else
09:38 hmmmm when I make a PR, my goal is to make the commits as atomic as possible
09:38 hmmmm maybe the same PR, but the commits inside the PR each do one very specific change
09:38 nrzkt hmmmm, i wanted it too at first but because nobody want to review i added more little commits... and then 6 commits :(
09:39 hmmmm git add -p
09:39 hmmmm not only are separate commits better organized, it helps the reviewer
09:39 hmmmm they only have to look out for one thing
09:39 hmmmm that's less context needed
09:40 hmmmm right, the main struggle of a reviewer is that they need to build up a mental context on what the code does right now, envision what the changes in the code made will do, and whether that's desireable and logically correct
09:40 hmmmm having 2 or 3 or 4 different things happening all at the same time increases mental load
09:40 hmmmm that's a great way to make reviewers not able to effectively review
09:41 hmmmm i guess this is a positive, if your end goal is to obsfucate changes for the purpose of stealthily pushing in an exploit or something
09:44 hmmmm this is highly unlikely, but sometimes i do get the feeling nerzhul is trying to boost his lines-of-code-changed commit stats to look good to other non-contributors who dunno what's going on
09:44 nrzkt euh lol
09:45 nrzkt absolutely not, i just want to make things cleaner
09:56 An0n3m0us lol
09:57 Zeno` ?
09:57 An0n3m0us sory
09:57 An0n3m0us Meant for #minetest
09:58 Zeno` ok
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11:03 nrzkt merging #5007 in ~10 min
11:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5007 -- Move Server/ClientEnvironment to dedicated cpp/header files by nerzhul
11:07 juhdanad And when will #4985 be merged?
11:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4985 -- Environment & IGameDef code refactoring by nerzhul
11:15 nrzkt juhdanad, i need to rebase it after this merge
11:16 nrzkt 5007 merged
11:16 nrzkt thanks Zeno` for you time and review
11:17 nrzkt juhdanad, i need to fix the huge conflict due to pr split :)
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17:06 redblade !seen tenplus1
17:06 ShadowBot redblade: I saw tenplus1 in #minetest-dev 2 weeks, 1 day, 5 hours, 41 minutes, and 27 seconds ago saying "pull #4955"
17:13 red-001 could someone review #5000 ?
17:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5000 -- Simpler serverlist search by red-001
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18:22 nrzkt merging #5010
18:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5010 -- Minor: Fix annoying indentation in new serverenvironment.cpp by lhofhansl
18:23 nrzkt seems #5007 change did remove indent fix on this code part
18:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5007 -- Move Server/ClientEnvironment to dedicated cpp/header files by nerzhul
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18:46 Megaf hm, KDE 5 on Debian Strech is looking very good
18:48 Megaf and memory leaks on Minetest Server seem to have been partially fixed. My server have been running for 43.6 days and it's using 228 MB of RAM
18:48 Megaf minetest@mt:~$ free -m total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached                Mem:           512        338        173          0          0        110
18:48 Megaf -/+ buffers/cache:        228        283                                                 Swap:          256          8        247
18:49 est31 nice
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18:49 Megaf minetest@mt:~$ uptime                                                                     16:54:43 up 47 days, 20:00,  3 users,  load average: 1.22, 0.93, 0.94
18:49 Megaf Quite good
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19:14 Fixer Megaf|Away: there were some players on it during this time?
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19:23 est31 sfan5: thanks for reverting commit https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/c435eabf3ffb77eab955d5faeb5450da1befc149
19:23 est31 it makes no sense
19:24 sfan5 i reverted it since it was not merged in accordance with the rules, no matter the content of the commit
19:24 est31 good
19:24 est31 yeah, looks like it only had one approval
19:24 est31 still a stupid change...
19:38 red-001 I really don't see why it's a bad change
19:41 nrzkt i don't see too, est31 can you add some argumetns why you are against ?
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19:43 est31 dunno, I just think there is little benefit in the change
19:44 est31 but idk, I'm not really -1'ing
19:44 paramat nrzkt #4965 is updated, please can you or anyone review/approve?
19:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4965 -- Map generation limit: Fix checks for block/sector over-limit by paramat
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20:03 * rdococ gtg to bed
20:09 nrzkt paramat, seems okay to me, est31 can you review too as you worked on limits too ?
20:11 est31 nrzkt: paramat LGTM
20:11 nrzkt ty est31
20:12 paramat thanks
20:15 KaadmY gtg to bed is very redundant
20:16 nrzkt KaadmY, inception
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21:16 paramat will merge #4965 in a moment
21:16 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4965 -- Map generation limit: Fix checks for block/sector over-limit by paramat
21:22 paramat merging
21:27 paramat complete
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23:39 paramat #5014
23:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5014 -- Sky: Do not darken in dark places when above water_level by paramat
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