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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-06-05

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Time Nick Message
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00:26 hmmmm paramat PTAL   https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/46d46a0535189a9e7468b89bddf101d2b79e409c
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05:43 eriix I've been writing an LMDB backend for Minetest, and I was wondering if anyone would have any interest in this.  It presently works very well for my needs, but I've only tested on AMD64 Linux.
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09:18 Calinou LMDB?
09:23 kahrl it's the storage backend that openldap uses by default (I think) since recently
09:24 kahrl previously it was bdb
09:27 celeron55 why are there infinite databases and why does someone want to use each and all of them with a _game_?
09:28 kahrl databases are well-studied in academia
09:28 kahrl perhaps writing a database is a popular subject for final-year projects and theses
09:31 kahrl but yeah, the question about using it for a game still stands :P
09:33 kahrl what I would like to see is a ldap-based authentication handler for minetest
09:33 kahrl should be pretty useful for corporate minetest servers
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10:30 paramat hmmmm code looks good
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10:47 paramat please any reviews for #4163 ?
10:47 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4163 -- Sky: Darker, bluer sky and improved horizon haze at night by paramat
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11:08 paramat ^ kahrl nore sfan5
11:14 kahrl paramat: weird, on my monitor it looks like the PR makes the midnight sky lighter, not darker
11:17 paramat it's a little darker, but certainly bluer. you will need a darkened room to judge those screenshots
11:18 kahrl true. It's noon here so it's a bit difficult
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11:21 celeron55 the dark end gamma of monitors tends to be literally completely all over the place
11:21 celeron55 it would be better to visualize night by making things monochrome or something instead of very dark
11:25 paramat my night sky here is monochrome, it's maximum saturation blue, and it's fairly light to look like atmosphere lit by full moon
11:35 paramat but of course the horizon differs. i find the horizon needs a little haze to look right, just as in daytime
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11:51 celeron55 the horizon is supposed to have roughly the same color as the clouds in order to fit the clouds on the sky to begin with
11:52 celeron55 when there are no clouds, it doesn't need the hazy color, but generally there are
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12:06 paramat yes. i discovered that day horizon has the same hue as day sky, just less saturation so lighter. so i did the same for night horizon
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15:09 paramat will merge #4185 in a moment
15:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4185 -- Biomes: Add biome-definable riverbed material and depth by paramat
15:10 hmmmm aah hold on
15:10 hmmmm you realize that PRs need to be re-reviewed when a change is suggested and a revision is supposedly made, right?
15:12 paramat ah ok, docs updated
15:12 hmmmm the message I wanted to get across with the documentation update isn't quite there
15:13 hmmmm you're saying specific things about specific fields and giving specific details about future plans in a documentation piece on an interface
15:14 hmmmm just say that the whole biome API is still unstable and subject to change
15:14 hmmmm it's also possible for rivers to not become biomes
15:14 hmmmm who knows?
15:14 paramat ok. no logs for mapgen channel, that's what i remembered
15:15 hmmmm don't you have IRC client logs?
15:15 paramat erm maybe
15:15 hmmmm alright despite the mapgen channel being decent in terms of filtering out interruptions and keeping the discussion focused, maybe it's not the best because of the whole logging issue
15:17 paramat indeed. and no i don't have any client history
15:18 hmmmm https://paste.fedoraproject.org/374861/51398981/
15:19 paramat ok i remembered wrong
15:19 paramat thanks
15:20 paramat +1 for your commit (but untested). it might conflict with 4185
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15:21 hmmmm why don't you commit yours first and then i'll commit mine
15:21 hmmmm i can probably handle merge conflicts a little bit better
15:23 paramat ok. my PR is bigger too
15:32 paramat updated
15:35 paramat merging
15:35 hmmmm and IS subject to change
15:35 hmmmm [11:10 AM] <hmmmm> you realize that PRs need to be re-reviewed when a change is suggested and a revision is supposedly made, right?
15:35 hmmmm Biome should be capitalized in that sentence
15:35 est31 hmmmm, you are sorta right with that sorta not
15:36 est31 I mean if you ask sb to add a . to the end of some documentation sentencee
15:36 est31 and they update their 1000 line PR
15:36 est31 then you dont have to go through the whole 1000 lines
15:36 est31 nor do you need to wait for an "okay, you placed the dot well"
15:37 est31 it is different when the requirements are more opaque
15:37 hmmmm no, you're supposed to review the difference between revisions
15:37 est31 like "it needs to be faster"
15:38 hmmmm how do you know that somebody hasn't slipped in an execl("rm", "-rf", "/");?
15:39 est31 I build on trust
15:39 hmmmm ideally, all code should reviewed at all times before being merged
15:39 est31 If I see that some people indeed have such behaviour
15:39 hmmmm and tested
15:39 est31 then I re-review the whole thing again
15:39 est31 hmmmm, the problem is just about time
15:40 est31 also, hmmmm do you do this yourself when reviewing PRS
15:40 hmmmm yes
15:40 est31 do you download each revision of a PR then check the diff
15:40 est31 and do you check it also when its rebased
15:40 hmmmm i don't download each revision, no, but i do look at the things that have been changed
15:41 hmmmm our current setup makes reviewing each exact diff more difficult
15:41 hmmmm fwiw there's a Gerrit plugin for this
15:41 est31 hmmmm, how do you know which things have been changed if you don't download each revision
15:41 est31 github doesnt support looking at the diff between different pr revisions
15:42 hmmmm so wouldn't the better question be, "how can we make github support this type of feature"
15:42 hmmmm or "how could we add this functionality on"
15:44 paramat the 'is' is earier in the sentence, and i don't think biome should be capitalised
15:44 hmmmm why not?
15:44 paramat 'is X and Y'
15:45 hmmmm yeah i saw that when i re-looked at it but what about the capitalization thing
15:45 paramat well it could be considered a name Biome API, or just a biome API
15:46 paramat i'm already about to merge so can fix it later, it's not a big error
15:49 hmmmm when would later be?
15:49 paramat merged, wow down to 125 PRs
15:50 paramat after now :]
15:54 paramat maybe i'll do a cleanup of lua_api, it needs it
15:54 hmmmm i don't get why you'd agree that something is wrong, and then merge it anyway, and decide to fix it after
15:55 est31 in some times that way of doing things is a good idea
15:55 est31 but it is a very very bad idea if it affects compatibility in any way
15:56 est31 so if you have to fix it you need to break compatibility
15:56 paramat i'll do a cleanup later today then, as my punishment
15:57 paramat i considered the capitalisation debatable
15:57 paramat either is ok, but i'll change it to make it more of a 'name'
15:58 hmmmm i never thought of it that way, about the name vs. generic thing argument, but capitalized titles for things like that are absolutely standard in technical documentation
15:59 paramat yeah it's probably a little better
16:00 paramat also i had gone through the whole merging process again and wasn't going to let a debatable single letter stop me :]
16:01 hmmmm at where i work to make a commit you need to 'git push review <branch>'
16:01 hmmmm this runs a hook and it does some kind of special magic that i'm not totally sure on
16:01 hmmmm but it shows up as a new revision in your equivalent to the PR page
16:01 hmmmm when a new revision is made, it loses all prior approval
16:01 hmmmm code review, unit tests passing, etc.
16:02 hmmmm so every single time you fix one god damn letter or add a period or something, EVERYTHING needs to be done again
16:02 hmmmm you need to go around to all the same people and beg them to re-add their review +1s
16:02 est31 and this is super annoying to everybody
16:02 hmmmm and then you need to run buildbot and have it re-create the entire running environment from scratch
16:02 hmmmm and then compile a massive piece of software
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16:03 hmmmm and then run ALL of the unit tests for ALL pieces of software on literally 15 different versions of Windows
16:03 hmmmm the whole process takes about 3 hours and 30 minutes
16:03 est31 hmmmm, this is a stupid GAME not a business software where a failure will cost millions of dollars
16:03 hmmmm now, there's a reason to ignore a minor change
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16:04 hmmmm oh
16:04 est31 ah
16:04 est31 you only talk about work
16:04 hmmmm and in the case that somebody else committed another PR in between the time it took for your PR to get re-reviewed and unit tested
16:04 est31 sorry didnt read that
16:04 hmmmm you need to manually rebase it and then you lose all approval AGAIN
16:04 hmmmm so you need to go through this entire process before anybody else touches the repository
16:05 hmmmm i've never wanted to physically harm anything in my life until i had been introduced to this setup
16:05 paramat oh man
16:05 hmmmm and then the same people who set this up are telling us that our project moves too slow
16:06 paramat heh
16:06 est31 :)
16:06 hmmmm wanna kill something
16:06 hmmmm oh and you better make sure you have a JIRA issue created for whatever change it is you're making in the appropriate format
16:07 hmmmm because in order to commit you need to have the JIRA number included in the commit message
16:07 hmmmm and this JIRA needs to have been approved by the business analyst, and it needs to have been put into the current sprint
16:07 hmmmm in order to get a specific JIRA story into the sprint you need approval from the manager and scrum master
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16:13 Calinou <est31> hmmmm, this is a stupid GAME not a business software where a failure will cost millions of dollars
16:13 Calinou and we should keep legacy protocol support? :P
16:14 Calinou in the non-free world, almost all online games ship with an updater...
16:14 hmmmm can you devise a reason why legacy protocol support should be dropped?
16:14 Calinou it's less work, less code (shorter compile times/smaller binaries)
16:14 Calinou and we can iterate faster
16:14 hmmmm but there's no reason why compatibility actually requires being broken
16:14 est31 LESS WORK: --> it requires work to remove compat
16:14 Calinou if you didn't understand it already, games in Linux distribution repositories are intended as showcases, not to be usable
16:14 hmmmm nobody is making any changes that affect compatibility
16:15 Calinou (even in rolling-release distros, this can be a problem)
16:15 est31 SHORTER COMPILE TIMES/SMALLER BINARIES: if you take away *one* texture from minetest, you essentially have the same size advantage
16:15 est31 or make it 10 textures
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16:17 Calinou textures don't affect compile times :P
16:17 est31 thats true
16:18 hmmmm here it's worth repeating
16:18 hmmmm Jun 04 17:25:43 <hmmmm> the way i change things doesn't necessarily break everything else
16:18 hmmmm Jun 04 17:25:55 <hmmmm> for some reason it seems like people assume or even want compatibility to be broken between changes
16:18 hmmmm Jun 04 17:26:10 <hmmmm> there is no correlation between the significance of changes and reverse compatibility
16:18 hmmmm Jun 04 17:26:58 <hmmmm> people are like cheering on changes that break compatibility for the network because they think that must mean there is a big change and a big change is always for the better, right?
16:18 hmmmm Jun 04 17:27:25 <hmmmm> and breaking compatibility does not make you more progressive and open to new ideas
16:18 est31 I rather have somebody spend more time on a format that's solid because once its there its hard to remove, than somebody spend less time on multiple bad formats but "iterating faster"
16:19 est31 with the excuse "we can re-design it whenever we want to"
16:19 est31 <Calinou> if you didn't understand it already, games in Linux distribution repositories are intended as showcases, not to be usable
16:19 est31 I agree this is a problem
16:20 est31 but even then its the choice of the distros to do it
16:20 est31 we are an open source project, any distro may take our game and put it in their archives
16:25 xunto haven't reached 1.0.0 yet @ is caring about compatibility
16:25 xunto funny)
16:27 est31 semver is just some stupid file on the internet
16:27 est31 what matters is if people use the thing
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16:32 paramat mtgame devs, nore sfan5 game#1124 needed soon so might merge later
16:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1124 -- Mapgen: Add biome fields for riverbed node and depth by paramat
16:50 celeron55 xunto: current minetest can generally load worlds that were created like less than half a year after the beginning of the entire project, and we are proud of it
16:51 hmmmm but the thing is, this discussion is STUPID because there is simply no actual requirement for compatibility to be broken in order to further develop minetest
16:51 hmmmm there is no superior thing that can't be done without breaking things from the past
16:52 hmmmm there is an implicit suggestion that breaking compatibility will enhance minetest in some way
16:52 hmmmm this is totally wrong
16:56 celeron55 i almost would like to force minetest to start using major version 100 or something so that these trolls couldn't say "haven't reached 1.0.0"
16:57 xunto >these trolls
16:57 xunto Sorry)
16:58 sfan5 paramat: i have no idea about mapgen so that pull looks fine to me
16:58 xunto It was accidential trolling
16:59 celeron55 well i don't actually care; it's just a thing you get really bored of and that stops becoming funny at all
17:00 celeron55 s/becoming/being/
17:00 celeron55 make better jokes
17:00 xunto Next time
17:00 est31 <hmmmm> but the thing is, this discussion is STUPID because there is simply no actual requirement for compatibility to be broken in order to further develop minetest
17:00 celeron55 that's a promise, then!
17:00 est31 +1 to that
17:02 celeron55 that hmmmm's work PR thing sounds absolutely ridiculous though; it wouldn't take long for me to either change it or show myself the door
17:02 hmmmm ??
17:02 rubenwardy <hmmmm> and then run ALL of the unit tests for ALL pieces of software on literally 15 different versions of Windows
17:03 hmmmm ohh
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17:03 hmmmm i forgot i was talking about that even
17:03 est31 shrug if its automated why not
17:03 sfan5 <hmmmm> the whole process takes about 3 hours and 30 minutes
17:03 sfan5 "why not"
17:04 est31 oh
17:04 paramat ok
17:04 hmmmm celeron, I stick around because i enjoy the subject matter of what i work on and it's a total work-at-home thing, aside from having to go on week-long business trips a few times a year
17:04 hmmmm the bureaucracy is overwhelming though and i don't feel bad about not being very productive either
17:05 hmmmm i have less say on that project than literally any project i've worked on in the past...
17:05 celeron55 i always feel bad about not being productive, no matter the cause, and consider it to be a benefit
17:08 hmmmm it's a benefit when the productivity is for yourself; not so a faceless, soulless corporation can make an extra buck off of your toil
17:08 celeron55 i don't work for faceless, soulless corporations
17:08 hmmmm i need to in order to buy food to live
17:09 hmmmm fwiw I have plans to retire in 10 years
17:09 hmmmm not going to live my entire life working
17:10 Krock work work work until you DIE with hopeless and totally DESTROYED </dramatical sound>
17:10 celeron55 i work for companies that appreciate me ensuing my own productivity; managed to find one just lately
17:12 celeron55 it's actually not that great to not have any work at all either
17:13 hmmmm depending on how i feel i could consider minetest work
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17:32 hmmmm paramat:  i was planning a bit more about the mapgen config change
17:33 hmmmm starting to wonder a bit if it's really a good idea or not from an interface point-of-view
17:34 hmmmm first i need to define all of the mapgen defaults in defaultsettings.cpp
17:34 hmmmm lots of work... eww
17:34 paramat work on other stuff for now then?
17:34 hmmmm then i need to add some new Settings methods to copy some settings that match a certain prefix or pattern to a new Settings object, namely ones that begin with mg_
17:35 hmmmm at this point we have a Settings that is a copy of g_settings that has nothing but settings that start with mg_, plus seed/blocksize/water_level/etc.
17:35 hmmmm now map_meta.txt gets loaded into a new Settings object
17:36 hmmmm then i write a new method that merges one Settings into another, overwriting pre-existing entries
17:36 hmmmm i also am required to maintain a list of settings that were present in the map_meta.txt when it was loaded
17:36 hmmmm at this point i pass off the Settings to lua to get modified
17:37 hmmmm you'll have a minetest.set_mapgen_setting("mg_caves_rarity", "some_val_here", true);  for example
17:37 hmmmm it's like setting a regular parameter except it has a third bool parameter, to override the map_meta.txt settings or not
17:38 hmmmm if false, which is the default, it'll first check to see if the setting being set is present in the list of setting names we loaded from map_meta.txt
17:38 hmmmm if so then it does nothing
17:38 hmmmm if it is not present then it overwrites the setting
17:38 hmmmm if overwrite = true then it'll just overwrite the setting regardless of whether or not it's one of the settings that had been loaded from map_meta.txt
17:39 hmmmm so now at this point we have a Settings object that has defaults from defaultsettings.cpp, loaded from the main config file, overrides from map_meta.txt loaded, and modifications from lua done
17:39 hmmmm the Settings object gets passed along to the mapgens/cavegens/dungeongens/biomegens/whatever
17:39 hmmmm and in the mapgen you just do
17:40 hmmmm mgsettings->getFloat("mg_cave_rarity");
17:40 hmmmm ya dig?
17:41 paramat i follow
17:41 hmmmm now we can blow up all the existing "set or get a specific mapgen parameter" lua apis, blow up all the MapgenParams/DungeonParams/CaveParams/BiomeParams structs, and their associated factory methods
17:41 hmmmm blow up a significant portion of EmergeManager code
17:41 hmmmm lots of code removed
17:42 paramat it still sounds good to me
17:43 hmmmm in order to utilize any of these interfaces, though, it'll require a dependency on Settings
17:43 hmmmm i wonder if that's a moot point or not, seeing as how deeply entrenched the mapgen code is on the rest of minetest already
17:46 hmmmm in a perfect world i'd be able to take mapgen_v7.cpp and drop it into another project along with noise.cpp/h and have it work
17:46 hmmmm :/
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17:55 paramat seems moot to me
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18:00 Fixer OldCoder will bring tsundere.fi world up some day :}
18:13 OldCoder Not long Fixer
18:13 OldCoder Not someday; hopefully, this month
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18:14 paramat merging game#1124
18:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1124 -- Mapgen: Add biome fields for riverbed node and depth by paramat
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18:18 paramat merged
18:20 paramat wow i'm at 300 commits total now
18:23 paramat Calinou https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/issues/826#issuecomment-223819746
18:23 Calinou maybe it's not there anymore
18:23 Calinou "In third person mode there's a very short and very small 'jump' of the player model when flying up from touching the ground. I suggest a close."
18:23 Calinou yeah that might be it
18:23 Fixer Calinou: i don't get that issue
18:23 Fixer Calinou: what stairs?
18:24 Calinou there's a thing in Minetest called stair smoothing
18:24 Calinou at least in the past, it was enabled even while flying
18:24 Calinou which introduced a slight (but noticeable) delay when flying upwards
18:24 paramat est31 shall we close that then?
18:24 Calinou feel free to close it anyway
18:24 paramat ok
18:24 Fixer i have no delay
18:25 paramat it's certainly hugely improved since my first comment there
18:25 Fixer it just goes up
18:25 Calinou Fixer: is there a delay when flying up, compared to flying downwards?
18:25 Calinou if there is, it's that bug
18:26 Fixer nope
18:26 Fixer i'm using PR3810 though
18:26 paramat closed
18:26 paramat i tested on master
18:30 Calinou thanks :p
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19:49 Fixer https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4151 now has backtrace and verbose debug.txt
19:53 hmmmm what are those backtraces of?
19:53 est31 of a stall on the xanadu server
19:53 est31 essentially the server didnt respond and he did ctrl-c
19:53 est31 then did a backtrace
19:54 est31 so the backtrace *may* include the cause for the stall
19:54 est31 or it may not
19:54 est31 no way to tell from a simple backtrace
19:54 hmmmm it's the server that freezes, not the client?
19:54 est31 yes the server
19:54 hmmmm okay
19:55 hmmmm and gdb.txt and gdb_DEbug_3.txt are two different backtraces from this happening two different times?
19:55 est31 idk
19:55 hmmmm @ Fixer
19:55 est31 maybe one is terminal backlog
19:55 hmmmm help us fix this
19:55 est31 and the other one is the .log file
19:55 est31 hmmmm, I've looked at the backtrace
19:55 est31 it seems to be inside craft recipe getting
19:56 Fixer hmmmm: sorry, thats backtrace originally posted by tenplus1 from his server that has this elusive server stall problem
19:56 est31 and I've been told that the position where the ABM runs on is a furnace
19:56 hmmmm which one
19:56 hmmmm gdb_DEbug_3.txt or gdb.txt?
19:56 est31 gdb_DEbug_3.txt
19:56 Fixer they are the same it seems
19:56 est31 only looked at that one
19:56 est31 you will see an ABM being invoked
19:56 hmmmm they seem to be exactly the same
19:57 est31 p = {X = 324, Y = 27, Z = -1994}
19:57 est31 this is where a furnace is according to TenPlus1
19:57 Fixer yes, they are the same, one file copied by hand, another made with gdb, they look the same, he attached both to be sure
19:57 est31 according to him he used mtgame code with the latest version with ABMs
19:58 est31 (mtgame has been changed to use nodetimers for furnaces since)
19:58 est31 so I've asked him to disable the furnace abm
19:58 est31 and it seemed to have worked for him
19:58 est31 no more stall
19:58 Fixer est31: we need to wait, it can stall later
19:58 est31 hmmmm, the stall is reproducible if you go to certain areas on the server.
19:59 est31 I've tried to download the map via local map saving and installing the mods, but it didnt stall for me
19:59 est31 most likely because I didnt have the mtgame tenplus1 had
19:59 hmmmm perhaps not
19:59 est31 so there is the chance it is an engine problem, it may be a mod problem as well
19:59 hmmmm that being said, does the problem go away if a newer mtagme is installed?
20:00 est31 apparently yes
20:00 hmmmm to be honest this sounds like a bad mod
20:00 nore est31: have you tried to move items in the furnace locally?
20:00 hmmmm it takes up too much time in an ABM
20:00 nore (That will start the nodetimer again)
20:00 hmmmm does this show up in mod profiling?
20:00 Fixer est31: wait, he was running 1day old mtg iirc
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20:00 nore hmmmm: problem is that this code has absolutely no loop
20:00 est31 Fixer, 1 day old mtg has already nodetimers
20:01 Fixer or 2 days old, i build it yesterday
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20:01 est31 Fixer, the backtrace clearly shows that an ABM is used
20:01 Fixer ok
20:01 est31 AND tenplus1 said that he used the last working version with abms
20:02 nore est31: if you get nothing with latest mtg, it's because the nodetimer is not running
20:02 nore moving items in the furnace might get it running again
20:09 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/4151#issuecomment-223834567
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20:12 est31 hmmmm, tenplus1 is in #minetest-project you can speak with him in that channel
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20:23 * tenplus1 is loitering
20:37 tenplus1 bye all
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22:40 paramat uh finally #4191 (am tired) < hmmmm . if it seems good feel free to merge it
22:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4191 -- Lua_api.txt: Split long lines. Capitalise 'Biome API'. Minor edits by paramat
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