Minetest logo

IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-12-22

| Channels | #minetest-dev index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:06 DFeniks joined #minetest-dev
00:14 DFeniks joined #minetest-dev
00:14 fling joined #minetest-dev
00:16 troller joined #minetest-dev
00:27 hmmmm joined #minetest-dev
00:33 troller joined #minetest-dev
01:17 est31 joined #minetest-dev
01:27 kaeza joined #minetest-dev
01:50 electrodude512 joined #minetest-dev
02:13 cg joined #minetest-dev
02:55 behalebabo left #minetest-dev
02:56 cg left #minetest-dev
03:02 Dragonop joined #minetest-dev
03:45 est31 grumble grumble
03:45 est31 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16922871/why-​glibcs-fclosenull-cause-segmentation-fault-inste​ad-of-returning-error#comment37411818_16922924
04:07 zat joined #minetest-dev
04:15 lezzy joined #minetest-dev
04:15 lezzy https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/751
04:30 lezzy https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/752
04:34 lezzy left #minetest-dev
05:02 Dragonop_ joined #minetest-dev
05:08 Dragonop joined #minetest-dev
05:37 Dragonop joined #minetest-dev
06:38 Hunterz joined #minetest-dev
07:32 jin_xi joined #minetest-dev
07:49 Krock joined #minetest-dev
08:06 Darcidride joined #minetest-dev
09:15 nrzkt joined #minetest-dev
09:26 Hunterz joined #minetest-dev
09:29 gravgun joined #minetest-dev
10:06 proller joined #minetest-dev
10:40 VargaD joined #minetest-dev
10:46 gravgun joined #minetest-dev
10:49 Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-dev
11:06 Calinou joined #minetest-dev
12:02 proller joined #minetest-dev
12:03 proller joined #minetest-dev
12:24 Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-dev
12:25 turtleman_ joined #minetest-dev
12:43 zat joined #minetest-dev
13:00 zat joined #minetest-dev
13:01 Amaz joined #minetest-dev
13:06 proller joined #minetest-dev
13:10 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
13:16 Calinou joined #minetest-dev
13:21 behalebabo joined #minetest-dev
13:37 CraigyDavi joined #minetest-dev
13:54 Soni joined #minetest-dev
14:13 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
14:18 vitaminx joined #minetest-dev
14:20 vitaminx hi all, I have a problem with my minetest server and I wonder if you could help me, a couple of times per day the server suddenly eats all of it's RAM (e.g. minetestserver uses 300 MB, then suddenly from one moment to another it takes all 2GB from the server) - and then minetestserver is killed by the OS (Linux) because out of memory
14:21 Calinou vitaminx, latest Git or stable 0.4.13?
14:21 vitaminx both
14:21 vitaminx 0.4.11 and 0.4.13
14:21 vitaminx theres a huge amount of this messages in logs:
14:21 vitaminx initBlockMake(): (-33,-1934,-60) - (-33,-1934,-60)
14:21 vitaminx p=(-33,-1934,-58) allow_generate=1
14:21 vitaminx not in memory, attempting to load from disk
14:22 vitaminx generating
14:22 vitaminx i was googleing and found that -33,-1934,-60 seems to be block coordinates which is extremely far
14:23 vitaminx i was wondering how to translate these block coords to node coords?
14:24 Calinou a block is 16×16×16
14:29 Krock so multiplicate everything by 16 to get the absolute position
14:29 vitaminx ok thanks, lets see whats at this coord :)
14:34 vitaminx ok yes, when i travel to that location the map under my feet doesnt generate and the server crashes
14:34 vitaminx by consuming all server RAM
14:34 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
14:37 kaadmy joined #minetest-dev
14:37 vitaminx is that a known problem that the server can't handle y> -30944 ?
14:37 vitaminx i mean y<
14:38 kaadmy they're different :)
14:38 Krock Isn't that the lowest position?
14:38 kaadmy negative coords go up
14:38 kaadmy wait down
14:38 Krock negative is down
14:39 Krock positive is up, otherwise the mt. everest would be 8048m under sea
14:39 vitaminx yes, is that the lowest position minetest can handle?
14:39 Krock oh sorry, I meant Mt. Minetest
14:39 kaadmy the ~31000 node limit is known, 16 bit signed int limitation afaik
14:40 Krock -32768 to be exact.. however, there's some space in between
14:40 vitaminx ok good then i think i have to limit the /teleport command somehow to avoid players crashing the server to their likings :)
14:40 vitaminx thanks for the info
14:43 kaadmy https://github.com/kaadmy/pixture/blo​b/master/mods/default/player.lua#L15
14:43 zat joined #minetest-dev
14:44 Krock *cough* if math.abs(player_pos.x) > 30000 then
14:45 Krock what if you fall down there?
14:48 vitaminx i have never seen that "Don't go past 30000m in any direction!" message
14:49 vitaminx player:setpos(player_lastpos[name]) doesn't seem to work
14:49 kaadmy i added that part
14:50 vitaminx just now?
14:50 vitaminx wow
14:50 kaadmy yes, there's more code needed, namely the globalstep and the player's positions
14:50 vitaminx awesome, thanks :D
14:51 kaadmy that's part of Pixture though, not i n minetest_game
14:55 vitaminx i' going to add your change to my server too
14:55 vitaminx thanks :)
14:56 turtleman_ joined #minetest-dev
15:01 vitaminx kaadmy, your change crashes the server :D
15:01 kaadmy it does... works for pixture, whats the error?
15:01 vitaminx player.lua:131: a        ttempt to index global 'player_lastpos' (a nil value)
15:02 vitaminx i guess when a player connects his player_lastpos is nil
15:03 kaadmy look at my on_joinplayer function
15:04 vitaminx ok i see
15:04 kaadmy and you might want to make ot nil when the player quits
15:05 vitaminx that would still be a problem when a player connects who was beyond 30000 limit when he last left the game
15:06 kaadmy ah yes
15:07 kaadmy maybe put them at the static_spawnpoint if player_lastpos is farther then 30000?
15:10 vitaminx yes, i'm doing that
15:14 Krock kaadmy, "fart er"?
15:14 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
15:14 kaadmy um
15:27 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
15:34 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
15:39 vitaminx thanks for the help, the limits work now :(
15:39 vitaminx :)
15:39 vitaminx if someone's last_pos is off limits too, he is simply teleported to spawn
15:40 vitaminx see you :)
15:41 zat joined #minetest-dev
15:55 Player2 joined #minetest-dev
16:08 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
16:10 proller joined #minetest-dev
16:14 kaadmy joined #minetest-dev
16:17 proller joined #minetest-dev
16:26 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
16:41 Guest48015 joined #minetest-dev
16:43 hmmmm joined #minetest-dev
16:58 Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-dev
17:07 proller joined #minetest-dev
17:09 Hunterz joined #minetest-dev
17:14 kaadmy joined #minetest-dev
17:18 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
17:19 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
17:19 kaadmy you have network problems? :)
17:44 AnotherBrick joined #minetest-dev
17:44 alket joined #minetest-dev
17:47 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
17:48 sapier joined #minetest-dev
17:51 kaadmy_mobile joined #minetest-dev
18:17 alket joined #minetest-dev
18:31 kaadmy_mobile joined #minetest-dev
18:32 nrzkt joined #minetest-dev
18:40 Guest48015 joined #minetest-dev
18:45 alket joined #minetest-dev
18:45 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
18:47 rubenwardy_ joined #minetest-dev
18:50 fling joined #minetest-dev
18:58 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
19:15 Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-dev
19:35 RealBadAngel joined #minetest-dev
19:35 RealBadAngel hi guys, whats up?
19:36 RealBadAngel sapier, ive commented your "ingot" drawtype
19:38 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
19:39 sapier I don't know realbadangel but the commit does implement exactly what you suggest ;-)
19:41 RealBadAngel i mean mesh is ok, the drawtype is wrong
19:41 sapier then why don't you write it that way? ;-)
19:41 RealBadAngel also the commit is not about to show meshes in inventories
19:41 sapier it is
19:41 sapier it started with custom ingot type but that one is already removed again ;-)
19:42 RealBadAngel you are using old way, to make a scene and prepare texture for further use
19:42 sapier oh this is what you're talking about
19:42 RealBadAngel yes
19:42 sapier is there a new way?
19:42 RealBadAngel ofc it is
19:42 sapier where?
19:42 RealBadAngel see minimap
19:42 RealBadAngel it is displaying a mesh
19:42 sapier minimap ain't inventory
19:43 RealBadAngel technique is important
19:43 sapier and the only thing I heared about minimap by now is it's causing framedrop of about 90% ;-)
19:43 RealBadAngel theres absolutely no reason to render the scene to get texture
19:43 RealBadAngel you can display mesh
19:44 sapier well obviously noone did implement this for inventory
19:44 RealBadAngel sapier, on slow boxes thats propably right
19:44 sapier so there's no new way for this ... I'd have used it ;-)
19:44 RealBadAngel but im not developing stuff for museum
19:45 sapier well if you consider android phones as museum stuff ;-P
19:45 sapier slow doesn't mean old in a lot of cases
19:45 RealBadAngel android and other portable devices are kinda joke
19:45 RealBadAngel they pretend to be computers
19:45 RealBadAngel but they wont be for a long time
19:45 RealBadAngel not yet
19:45 sapier those "jokes" you mentioned drive 90% of current society
19:46 sapier no matter what they are as of technical perspective their presence is a matter of fact ;)
19:46 RealBadAngel that not an argument
19:46 RealBadAngel you cant deny the engine is not made for mobiles
19:47 sapier but that's irrelevant for the discussion can you please update your comment to actually reflect what you wanted to tell ;-)
19:47 RealBadAngel at last at their current stage
19:47 RealBadAngel thyere way behind regular pc
19:47 RealBadAngel and that wont change any soon
19:47 sapier I don't deny it but imho we shouldn't add things that cause 90% framedrop as default if there's no need for it too
19:48 RealBadAngel regular PC has power to do things
19:48 sapier imho pc doesn't have future
19:48 RealBadAngel and i will use it
19:48 RealBadAngel lol
19:48 sapier atm you're loughing but let's talk about it in about 5 years from now
19:48 RealBadAngel in 5 yrs situation can change
19:49 sapier there ain't any mainstream os out there which requires a pc
19:49 RealBadAngel but i highly doubt so
19:49 exio4 is the minimap updated too frequently?
19:49 exio4 are those updates done in a separate thread?
19:49 RealBadAngel not really
19:49 RealBadAngel yes
19:49 sapier windows 10 is basicaly a cloud os which moves everything you wanted to cloud android always was quite coupled to cloud and ios is too
19:50 RealBadAngel on my box it was possible to run minimap at 60 fps
19:50 BrandonReese joined #minetest-dev
19:50 RealBadAngel and im on low end i3
19:50 sapier on pc minimap aint a problem
19:50 RealBadAngel try to run it on any "multicore" portable watch like computer
19:51 RealBadAngel on my galaxy tab 4 i had to disable multitasking and multiple apps running same time
19:51 sapier Still it's been about mesh items for what I remember there ain't any code out there really rendering them is it?
19:51 RealBadAngel because it was draining battery in like 1,5h
19:52 RealBadAngel ok, lets leave offtopic now
19:52 RealBadAngel you can set a window and display there a mesh of your choice
19:52 RealBadAngel minimap is done as a flat mesh with single texture
19:52 sapier no I can't ;-)
19:53 RealBadAngel but it can be any mesh
19:53 sapier I == me personal
19:53 sapier as I don't know how to do it and there's not even similar code to it  ;-)
19:53 RealBadAngel so, if you can display any mesh, easily, why bother to set render scene, fiddle and collect the texture?
19:54 sapier well that'd touch formspec code which I've promised myself never ever to touch again
19:54 RealBadAngel this is total waste of time and the resources
19:54 sapier if it's that easy why didn't someone already do it ?
19:54 RealBadAngel damn, it could be easy to set selected one rotating
19:54 RealBadAngel for example
19:55 RealBadAngel i cant code 20 things at the time :P
19:55 sapier And I can't do it at all because I don't know how to do it
19:55 RealBadAngel displaying is not that hard
19:56 sapier I just know I'd have to get those entities somehow to scene and get it out of it later which is way beyond my knowledge about minetests rendering engine
19:56 RealBadAngel propably replacing formspec methods will be more time consuming
19:56 sapier don't mention the name
19:56 RealBadAngel sapier, wait a sec, i will point you a piece of code
19:57 sapier next time you mention the words "replacing" and "formspec" to me I'm out ;-P
19:57 sapier if it's formspec you can save the time as I'm not gonna even look at it ;-)
19:57 sapier for sure not
19:58 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/src/minimap.cpp#L471
19:58 RealBadAngel you just set a new viewport
19:58 RealBadAngel and display there a mesh of your choice
19:59 RealBadAngel viewport can be of inventory slot size
19:59 RealBadAngel thats all
19:59 sapier I don't even know how to setup a viewport properly and I'm quite sure I'd have to manage them for cleanup too ... and next is inventory is part of FORMSPEC ... no no I burnt my fingers to often there
20:00 RealBadAngel read this code
20:00 RealBadAngel you just set pos and size
20:00 sapier nope formspec code is out of question for me
20:01 RealBadAngel chicken ;)
20:02 sapier well I added a simple no use no change feature pull and read the conversation ;-)
20:03 sapier what do you believe will happen if there's a actual change in regular game?!
20:03 RealBadAngel you made it all backwards
20:04 sapier btw this pull wouldn't cause any legacy issues if you did later implement it the way you suggest
20:04 sapier no i didn't I just used what's current
20:04 sapier can't help about you thinking in future features not yet implemented by yourself ;-)
20:05 RealBadAngel in case you havent noticed im turning all the drawtypes into meshes
20:06 sapier hopefully you'll be more successfull then me when even trying to add something different then extruded images ;-P
20:06 RealBadAngel i have effectively made nodeboxes obsolote
20:07 sapier good ... they've been crap since they have been added
20:07 RealBadAngel ive made another extrustion code, yeah
20:07 sapier imho of course
20:07 sapier well it's only usefull for quite limited part of items
20:07 RealBadAngel quite different that two previous attempts
20:07 sapier most just look horrible
20:07 RealBadAngel not rly
20:07 RealBadAngel i intend to make 3d l-system plants
20:08 RealBadAngel old plantlike is just a step to be taken on the way
20:08 sapier still till you finished it we could add the mesh item thingy you'd already have the item meshes you'll need anyway
20:09 kaadmy_mobile joined #minetest-dev
20:09 RealBadAngel so drop the specific drawtypes ideas, made evertyhin use provided meshes
20:09 RealBadAngel if theres no mesh, fallback to old code
20:11 RealBadAngel you can make then any mesh for your ingots
20:12 RealBadAngel and when im done with plants, i will make formspec displaying them
20:12 RealBadAngel so we will get rid of preloading item visuals
20:13 sapier did you notice there's no ingot drawtype in the current version of that pull?!?
20:14 RealBadAngel i did but i know what was the idea behind it and where it started
20:14 RealBadAngel just havent time before to comment it out
20:14 sapier well in the begining ther was the word
20:14 RealBadAngel better later than never right? ;)
20:15 sapier well if the comment doesn't even match the current topic it may cause more harm then help ;-)
20:16 RealBadAngel sorry then, didnt wanted to cause any harm
20:16 sapier I renamed the pull obviously the initial special ingot thingy is dead and the actual later mesh only variant is better ... as I blieve noone will actually notice the change and realize all the upper comments are invalid I'll close the pull create a new branch reflecting the current topic of it and create a new pull ;-)
20:17 RealBadAngel as i did already? ;)
20:17 RealBadAngel propably youre right
20:18 RealBadAngel but dont worry, time taken to learn how define meshes and uv is not lost
20:19 RealBadAngel there will be still specific meshes done runtime, we still dont have cables etc
20:20 RealBadAngel on the other hand we shall drop such idiotic drawtypes as torches or ladders
20:20 RealBadAngel especially torches
20:21 RealBadAngel spaier, btw, have you saw video with waving 3d plants already?
20:22 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3479 better?
20:22 sapier code is 100% identical ;-) just squashed the commits adding and removing the special type
20:24 sapier if 3479 is added chances there will be meshes for major types by the time you replace inventory textures by actual renderings would drasticaly increas
20:24 sapier e
20:24 RealBadAngel thats the clue of the change
20:24 RealBadAngel just let them use meshes
20:25 RealBadAngel see, if theres a mesh defined, formspec code can show them directly
20:25 RealBadAngel at any size, rotation or whatever
20:26 RealBadAngel also there wont be any extra texture for such items
20:26 RealBadAngel so it will be saving ram
20:27 RealBadAngel thats worthy goal, dont you think so?
20:28 VanessaE not to mention saving on startup time :)
20:28 RealBadAngel that too
20:28 RealBadAngel and personally i would love to see selected item in the inventory to spin
20:29 sapier well for the moment we don't have anything like it and quite some ppl which don't wanna miss their 16x16 item textures
20:29 RealBadAngel you can make 16px models
20:30 sapier I can write 30 minutes of 3d video in 100kb too ... well not me personal ;-)
20:30 RealBadAngel i will make such models for all the plants at the end
20:30 sapier you could do it maybe
20:30 RealBadAngel i will export the mehses just
20:30 RealBadAngel once done, no need to recalcuate them each time
20:31 sapier what I'm trying to tell is 3479 provides (visual) same as what you're gonna implement at first step with way less code changes and full upwards compatibility ;-) so why not merge it till your code is completed?
20:32 RealBadAngel yours change is worht mergeing already
20:32 sapier the only thing that may happen is you may suffer from "not invented here"-syndrom because you might have to use someone elses meshes which have become popular in between
20:32 sapier if and only if someone really does create meshes ;-)
20:32 RealBadAngel i wont
20:33 RealBadAngel they will create them
20:33 sapier I wont do it for sure as the meshes are part of game :-)
20:33 RealBadAngel just give them a way
20:34 sapier in this case we don't have any problem too ... the only thing relevant is if calling the parameters "mesh" and "meshtexture" is what you want/need for your future implementation
20:34 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
20:34 sapier I usually don't care about names so if you prefere different naming I'll change it
20:34 RealBadAngel see mesh drawtype
20:35 RealBadAngel textures are given in "tiles"
20:36 RealBadAngel one single texture can hold everything
20:36 RealBadAngel also, theres another reason to introduce different "tiles" field
20:36 sapier so meshtexture should be renamed to "tiles" for historc reasons?
20:37 sapier which reason?
20:37 RealBadAngel ive extended recently tiles a lot
20:37 VanessaE RealBadAngel: one single texture often should NOT hold "everything"
20:37 RealBadAngel not in meshes
20:38 VanessaE most meshes I make use multiple textures/materials because then the collection of files used can be smaller than a single texture (think unused space in the image), and it makes HDX support much easier
20:38 RealBadAngel also, my extension to tiles is an ability to specify two additional texutres for the mesh and the shader
20:39 RealBadAngel you can bound there easily, noise map, normal map or whatever the texure with special data for rendering
20:40 RealBadAngel i mean thats very generic thing, so there shall not be any other specific ones imho
20:40 sapier so tiles is either a string or a table of strings?
20:41 RealBadAngel tile can be a set of 3 textures
20:41 RealBadAngel diffuse, normal plus the special
20:41 sapier why not four?
20:41 RealBadAngel 4th is reserved for shader flags
20:41 sapier ok then why not 5?
20:42 RealBadAngel because irrlicht max materials is set to 4
20:42 RealBadAngel we dont have our own irrlicht, we are using external libs
20:43 sapier ok yet is there any logical reason to limit it to 3/4 whatever instead of just accepting whatever is passed and ignoring the ones we don't need atm?
20:43 RealBadAngel if you compile it you can set that limit to whatever you wish
20:43 sapier come one compile time limits are ugly
20:44 RealBadAngel with bundled irrlicht you could set it to 16 and forget bout the problem
20:44 sapier I'd suggest providing a tiles property accepting either "string" (a single texture) or table of strings (1+ tiles)
20:44 RealBadAngel we do that already, kind of
20:45 RealBadAngel what ive done is the extension to defining a single one
20:45 VanessaE tiles should, in my opinion, be strictly image textures, not for normalmaps etc.
20:45 sapier ok then we don't have to change anything and I'll just rename "meshtexture" to "tiles"
20:45 RealBadAngel you can define it as a single texture field, or a table with lotsa other settings
20:45 VanessaE for those, there should be a separate item def field.
20:45 RealBadAngel sapier, yeah
20:45 sapier ok guys settle yourself and I'm gonna change it to whatever you've decided
20:46 RealBadAngel that mechanism was already there
20:46 ElectronLibre joined #minetest-dev
20:46 RealBadAngel lava, water animations were defined as tables already
20:46 RealBadAngel so the tile could be a table long way before my changes
20:48 sapier true but as of me I always considered "tile" as some kind of legacy naming
20:48 RealBadAngel sapier, https://github.com/RealBadAngel/sh​aded_lava/blob/master/init.lua#L1
20:48 RealBadAngel see sample nodes using new method
20:49 sapier lava source node? ... You've got a talent for bad examples equal to mine ;)
20:50 RealBadAngel better try the code live before commenting :)
20:50 sapier on the other hand it's quite smart to add it for something nobody sees first an later tell everyone "it's in there for ages"
20:50 RealBadAngel the shader was here for ages
20:51 RealBadAngel but now i thx to tangent space i was able to polish it
20:51 sapier well disabled by almost everyone because of not working correct ;) *joking*
20:51 RealBadAngel damn, grab the tree
20:51 RealBadAngel and check water and lava shaders
20:52 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/3391#issuecomment-160397741
20:53 RealBadAngel ive made water shaders with flowing one
20:54 VanessaE RealBadAngel: make some up-to-date videos
20:54 VanessaE save him from having to clone+compile :)
20:54 RealBadAngel none of the vids will give you the feeling
20:54 RealBadAngel you have to see it on your own
20:54 VanessaE what's the difference?
20:54 RealBadAngel i wont be sending HD vids over mobile? ;)
20:55 VanessaE oh
20:55 RealBadAngel but joking, this is about game play feel
20:55 RealBadAngel when you walk to the shore and see waves
20:55 RealBadAngel you have to play with it
20:56 VanessaE well you know I've seen your recent water shader up close.  it worked well for me, just needed specular highlighting on the water
20:56 VanessaE (well that and you hadn't yet, at the time, finished dealing with flowing water)
20:56 RealBadAngel water shader next step will be reflections
20:56 VanessaE nah
20:56 VanessaE dkip yhsy
20:56 VanessaE er
20:56 VanessaE skip that
20:56 RealBadAngel and some other math
20:57 VanessaE keep the shaders simple.  reflections add too much shader work
20:57 RealBadAngel atm i do have NICE surface and PERFECT flowing
20:57 RealBadAngel without animation frames
20:58 RealBadAngel notice that out of sync blocks water surface does not apply here
20:58 VanessaE yeah I saw that
20:58 VanessaE so...you gonna release that code as "final" soon?
20:59 VanessaE stop working on 10 somewhat-related things all at once and make a damn PR :)
20:59 RealBadAngel well, BlockMen commented that some parts of the PR "are not necesary"
21:00 RealBadAngel he obviously doesnt know what he is talking about, dont wanna join irc to let him explain
21:00 RealBadAngel he is propably blocking the pr just for fun, or whatever
21:00 VanessaE I doubt that
21:00 RealBadAngel see github talk
21:01 RealBadAngel he thinks that forcing filtering is about those pity 16px textures
21:02 VanessaE no
21:02 VanessaE it's more about the style of the game
21:02 VanessaE doesn't much matter if it's 16px really
21:02 RealBadAngel yes, "player could choose to see pixels"
21:02 VanessaE it's more that you shouldn't smooth some things but not smooth other things.
21:02 RealBadAngel Users should be able to decide whether they want see pixels in water (or whatever) texture or not
21:02 VanessaE something like that needs to be an all-or-nothing setting
21:02 VanessaE will your effect work without filtering?
21:02 RealBadAngel thats what he said
21:03 RealBadAngel dumbass
21:03 RealBadAngel theres no texture at all
21:03 VanessaE there's a normal isn't there?
21:03 VanessaE normalmap*
21:03 RealBadAngel thats noise
21:03 RealBadAngel texture is math
21:03 VanessaE yes, but that adds "texture" i.e. "feel"
21:03 RealBadAngel no
21:03 RealBadAngel all is pure math
21:03 VanessaE there are no normalmaps associated with this anymore?
21:04 VanessaE or parallax maps, depth maps, etc?
21:04 RealBadAngel no
21:04 VanessaE ok that changes things somewhat,.
21:04 VanessaE BUT
21:04 VanessaE what does the effect look like without filtering?
21:04 RealBadAngel theres just noise map, perturbation map rather
21:04 RealBadAngel which is highly deformed with time
21:04 RealBadAngel point of filtering is to make it smooth
21:05 VanessaE so answer my question
21:05 VanessaE what exactly does the effect look like without filtering?
21:05 RealBadAngel i could avoid filtering if i choose to use 1024px + perturbation maps
21:06 RealBadAngel with water pixelated waves effect is gone at distance of 5-10 nodes
21:06 RealBadAngel lava on the other hand is much worse
21:06 VanessaE damn it just answer the question
21:06 VanessaE what.  does.  it.  look.  like?
21:06 RealBadAngel shitty
21:06 VanessaE (and don't say "like shit")
21:06 VanessaE damn it, ninja'd.
21:07 RealBadAngel i wont alloow the code to be used without filtering
21:07 RealBadAngel howgh
21:07 VanessaE you have to if you want it to go in at all
21:07 RealBadAngel im coding visuals, theres no half way there
21:08 VanessaE because in all honesty, I would have to block it too.
21:08 RealBadAngel either it looks as intended or theres no such effect
21:08 RealBadAngel its not a blocky feeling as you think or used to
21:08 RealBadAngel its about too small input files
21:09 RealBadAngel would you really like me to force using 1024px textures?
21:09 VanessaE no
21:09 RealBadAngel while i can use 256x plus filters?
21:09 RealBadAngel effect will be the same
21:09 VanessaE if it were in my power, I would insist on a setting to selectively enable the filtering on the water separate from the "overall" filtering that's currently offered.
21:10 RealBadAngel also i could oversample the texture runtime
21:10 RealBadAngel and all will be crying about performance
21:10 RealBadAngel think a bit
21:10 RealBadAngel VanessaE, well, its hows its done...
21:11 VanessaE "think a bit" "crying about performance"....  meanwhile minetest is so CPU-bound that even my badass GPU doesn't help.
21:11 RealBadAngel the effects demands the filter enabled ONLY for this very node
21:11 VanessaE WHY does the effect "demand" it?
21:11 VanessaE why exactly?
21:11 RealBadAngel i told you
21:11 Darcidride joined #minetest-dev
21:11 VanessaE well tell me again. :P
21:11 RealBadAngel to get the quality
21:12 VanessaE that's not a good enough answer.
21:12 RealBadAngel its more than enough
21:12 VanessaE that's a purely subjective response,.
21:12 VanessaE it needs to be some objective reason.
21:12 RealBadAngel save ram
21:12 RealBadAngel is it better?
21:12 VanessaE forcing filters to be turned on, but without any changes to the code or assets, saves RAM?
21:12 RealBadAngel 256x is smaller than 1024x
21:13 VanessaE no one is saying you should use a higher-resolution texture.  ever.
21:13 RealBadAngel ive designed the water shader, i want it to be of quality i designed it
21:13 RealBadAngel period
21:13 RealBadAngel i dont wanna some1 to break it and complain it does look shitty
21:13 sapier great my monorail/carts mod is still working after not fixing anything for a year
21:14 behalebabo left #minetest-dev
21:14 RealBadAngel this is most advanced shader ive ever made, spent shitload of time to fine tune it and look just awesome
21:15 VanessaE I k now it does.
21:15 VanessaE but you HAVE to allow people to turn those filters off,
21:15 RealBadAngel i wont allow it to be broken
21:15 VanessaE for example, when I'm using default textures, I never enable filtering
21:16 VanessaE I don't like the blurry look that goes with it
21:16 VanessaE but with HDX, absolutely I'll use the filtering, because at that resolution it looks good
21:16 RealBadAngel this is not about it being blurry
21:16 RealBadAngel its about accuracy
21:16 VanessaE others don't use filtering for whatever reasons, maybe it adds CPU load they don't want
21:17 RealBadAngel hell, get them and try both versions
21:17 RealBadAngel just set filters disable in mod
21:17 VanessaE why are you so hell-bent on not giving the user the option?
21:17 RealBadAngel and see the change
21:18 RealBadAngel this is not a goddam option
21:18 RealBadAngel its breaking my code or not
21:18 VanessaE it is NOT breaking your cxode
21:18 VanessaE code*
21:18 RealBadAngel well
21:18 VanessaE it would just be a different look than you expect.
21:18 RealBadAngel lets call it my artistic vision
21:18 RealBadAngel not the code
21:19 VanessaE that's fine, but
21:19 VanessaE if it comes to "artistic vision" it immediately gets into "this is mod/game territory"
21:19 RealBadAngel hrmm hrmmm, its a mod that adds such water? ;)
21:19 VanessaE the engine is almost never about 'artistic vision' to be honest
21:20 RealBadAngel the PR itself is about tools to make such shaders possible
21:20 RealBadAngel what ive done in my mod is my own business
21:20 VanessaE right but your shaders are themselves in-engine right now.
21:21 RealBadAngel water and lava are not
21:21 RealBadAngel and propably never will, theyre just too nice ;)
21:21 VanessaE ...
21:21 RealBadAngel "not enough voxelish" ;)
21:21 VanessaE what's the PR link again?
21:21 RealBadAngel a sec
21:22 RealBadAngel #3391
21:22 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3391
21:23 VanessaE so why then are we even *talking* about the water stuff at all?
21:23 VanessaE why aren't you targeting something way simpler?
21:23 VanessaE like some funky cartoon shader or something
21:23 RealBadAngel first of all, changes were made having some goals in mind
21:24 RealBadAngel all of them require protocol bump
21:24 RealBadAngel why should i split them?
21:24 VanessaE becuase, again, the engine is no place for "artistic vision" to be enforced.
21:24 RealBadAngel also, if i split it, my target shader wont work as i expect it to work
21:25 VanessaE make your PR as generic as possible regarding what a mod-provided shader can do
21:25 RealBadAngel so, why should i have half a solution usable for nothing?
21:25 VanessaE take all talk of water/lava shaders off to a separate GAME pull request.
21:25 VanessaE (one which, no doubt, will still be declined)
21:25 RealBadAngel either modder can do everything with a shader or nothing
21:26 RealBadAngel this change is way more than just generic
21:26 RealBadAngel its a fucking freedom to do anything you want to
21:26 VanessaE that's what generic means in this contex.
21:26 VanessaE context*
21:27 RealBadAngel ive let shaders be feed with any data and settings
21:27 VanessaE no specific thing being enforced, maximum amount of freedom for the modder (within reason of course).
21:27 RealBadAngel what shader designer will want, he can do
21:27 RealBadAngel he can write completely new shader now
21:28 VanessaE that's fine
21:28 RealBadAngel and put them on client side
21:28 VanessaE but NOT if your liquid shaders are forced to go with it
21:28 RealBadAngel and devs hands fff
21:28 RealBadAngel off
21:28 RealBadAngel its not forced
21:28 RealBadAngel PR is about the tools for it only
21:29 RealBadAngel shader and the mods for it are just an example what can be achieved
21:29 VanessaE then take all of the talk for that out of the PR
21:29 VanessaE stop confusing theissue
21:29 RealBadAngel and i will propably never make a PR with them to minetest_game
21:30 kaadmy_mobile joined #minetest-dev
21:31 RealBadAngel youre trying to tell me that folks like blockmen got scared of what it allows? ;)
21:32 VanessaE I'm trying to say that you're mixing code with sentiment in your PR and it has to go.
21:32 VanessaE it's no wonder he's blocking you
21:32 VanessaE (and you know perfectly well I won't budge on this :P )_
21:32 RealBadAngel what could stop him to make a default minetest_game mod with water shader NOT forcing any filters state?
21:33 `PenguinDad` joined #minetest-dev
21:33 RealBadAngel and why this freedom of his choice should stop mine?
21:33 RealBadAngel heh?
21:34 RealBadAngel if youre fighting wiht the sword, you can die by the sword :P
21:38 RealBadAngel i wont change my opinion, sorry
21:40 proller joined #minetest-dev
21:40 hmmmm I agree with BlockMen
21:40 Dragonop joined #minetest-dev
21:41 RealBadAngel hmmmm, tried the shader with filters enabled and disabled?
21:41 hmmmm if it's necessary to have texture filtering with the use of a certain shader, perhaps that shader can specify options such as "needs bi-linear filtering" or similar so when it does run, it automatically turns on bilinear filtering
21:41 hmmmm (of course, it should be disable-able)
21:42 RealBadAngel if the shaders needs it, it forces it (only for this very node)
21:42 RealBadAngel and this is up to nodedef - a mod that introduces that shader
21:43 RealBadAngel this "option" is not designed to be user choice
21:43 hmmmm erm, unless I am misunderstanding something here, the thing BlockMen is standing against is changing a default option regardless of whether or not a node needs it
21:43 RealBadAngel the force_filtering options is designed to affect only single node
21:43 RealBadAngel when its badly needed
21:44 RealBadAngel overall settings are not affected
21:45 RealBadAngel thats why i moved so much about filtering code around here
21:45 proller joined #minetest-dev
21:46 RealBadAngel this is simply very specific case
21:47 RealBadAngel i, as the shader designer, do know that the shader will need it, so i assure that it will be used no matter what
21:47 RealBadAngel about other nodes i do not care at this point
21:48 hmmmm alright I see what it is you're doing
21:48 hmmmm I added a comment on the PR concerning this matter.
21:49 VanessaE hmmmm: your comment sums up my thoughts on it.
21:49 RealBadAngel hmmm, as i mentioned eariler, i could avoid that, but at the cost of much more larger input files
21:49 hmmmm does it?  i didn't read the whole chat above
21:49 RealBadAngel i do really think thats tradeoff is fair
21:50 hmmmm ?? there doesn't need to be any tradeoff
21:50 hmmmm I don't understand the issue here
21:50 RealBadAngel filtering provides smoothing of input data
21:50 RealBadAngel do note, thats not the texture
21:51 hmmmm I just want there to be another setting on the client so that the end user always has the final say in how their nodes look
21:51 RealBadAngel same quality with water shader im getting a) with 256x perturbance map + force filtering b) 1024x data without filters at all
21:52 hmmmm you know how there are 4 levels of antialiasing, DEP, and so on?
21:52 hmmmm "force off", "off", "on", "force on"
21:52 RealBadAngel doesnt apply there...
21:52 hmmmm explain to me *why* this doesn't apply here
21:52 hmmmm because maybe I'm missing some fundamental detail
21:52 RealBadAngel im doing the texture on the fly
21:52 RealBadAngel with math
21:52 hmmmm yes..?
21:54 RealBadAngel how you could apply antyaliasing, and all those to something that is made each frame? as continous surface per whole seen scene?
21:54 RealBadAngel you cant
21:54 RealBadAngel its not a damn texture at all
21:54 VanessaE I want to see side-by-side screenshots of the shader - with and without your forced filters.
21:55 VanessaE I don't care if it doesn't give the whole picture.  it'll be enough.
21:55 hmmmm what?? I just brought up antialiasing because that's a common case where the graphics driver gives two sets of "on" and "off" states
21:55 hmmmm as another example of where the user gets the final say in how something is rendered
21:55 RealBadAngel hmmmm, you are making same wrong assumption as others
21:56 RealBadAngel we are not taling about the texures for damn sake
21:56 hmmmm I get that it's not a texture and it's generated on the fly
21:56 hmmmm but what if the user doesn't want trilinear filtering for that generated "thing"?
21:56 sapier are you guys talking about filters that may or may not be supported by gpu or by something done by cpu anyway?
21:56 RealBadAngel i need to smooth input files
21:56 hmmmm what is the input file then?
21:56 RealBadAngel the source for math im using
21:56 hmmmm is that a texture?
21:57 RealBadAngel you can open it in gimp, yes
21:57 hmmmm ok...
21:57 RealBadAngel wanna try? :)
21:57 hmmmm no I don't really want to try.
21:57 RealBadAngel its looking something close to normal map
21:57 RealBadAngel its a perturbation map
21:57 hmmmm but I don't get why it *has* to be enabled
21:58 sapier we're argueing about shaders but didn't get simple signs done in more then 2 years ... quite dissapointing
21:58 RealBadAngel otherwise waves wont be smooth
21:58 hmmmm sapier, I'm not actually working on anything at the moment :)
21:58 RealBadAngel and you will see pixels floating all around
21:58 hmmmm RealBadAngel, maybe users don't want them to be smooth..
21:58 hmmmm well I made my stance known
21:58 hmmmm I'm outta here
21:58 RealBadAngel hmmmm, dare to try it?
21:58 hmmmm I really don't give a flying crap about minetest
21:58 RealBadAngel you can easily judge it by yourself
21:59 hmmmm just want other devs to make good design decisions
21:59 RealBadAngel theres a PR to allow things, and theres a mod that makes use of it
21:59 RealBadAngel you can try it on and off
21:59 sapier hmmmm: you'll find at least one user wanting almost everything ;-)
22:00 RealBadAngel PR itself doesnt force anything
22:00 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/3391#issuecomment-160397741
22:00 RealBadAngel anyway, trying to explain animation effect is plain dumb
22:01 RealBadAngel please all of you try it on your own
22:01 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBadAngel/wat​er_shaders/blob/master/init.lua#L15
22:01 RealBadAngel at the line above you can disable forcing the filter
22:01 hmmmm besides, I wouldn't even be able to try it on my own
22:02 sapier does "Allow mods to define which shader to use for a node" really mean a node specifys which shader to use and not the setting done in setting?
22:02 hmmmm despite my powerful GTX660, minetest would run at like 5 FPS
22:02 VanessaE sapier: it means the mod can supply the shader code itself.
22:02 sapier really BAD
22:02 sapier because this means a mod will cause some devices to crash due to lack of shader support
22:02 hmmmm RealBadAngel is mostly concerned about flashy graphical effects than optimizing what's already there
22:03 sapier or incompatible shaders provided
22:03 RealBadAngel hmmmm, idk what have you done to your distro, but my most cheap i3, 4gb ram, gtx 550ti, runs mostly at 60fps
22:03 hmmmm you can clearly see most people want minetest to run well instead, but user feedback be damned, he'll do what he wants to do
22:03 RealBadAngel sapier, not really
22:03 sapier not even talking about the security implications if a mod is able to download arbitrary code to cpu
22:03 sapier gpu
22:03 RealBadAngel this allows to define also default shader used
22:03 RealBadAngel and this can be defined very lite
22:03 sapier can they be defined as "none" too?
22:04 RealBadAngel later on we can code fallback to that lite one in case of compilation failed (or lack of support for it)
22:04 sapier where to find your current code rba?
22:04 sapier for what I remember shaders don't work at all on android so lite wouldn't be light enough
22:05 RealBadAngel sapier, https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/3391#issuecomment-160397741
22:05 VanessaE sapier: shaders DO work on android but in limited ways
22:05 RealBadAngel for android we will need totally different shaders
22:05 sapier well those minetest provides don't work
22:05 RealBadAngel nothing fancy propably
22:05 VanessaE sapier: they used to.  waving leaves for example.
22:06 VanessaE I've seen such even on my old android 2.3 device (that old piece of crap Xelio tab)
22:06 RealBadAngel yes, geometry ones will work propably
22:06 sapier and do correct me if I'm wrong shaders usually are quite gpu specific?
22:06 VanessaE not sure if that's still the case though./
22:06 RealBadAngel android devices are limited in materials
22:06 VanessaE sapier: they're not *supposed* to be GPU-specific
22:06 RealBadAngel so bumpmapping etc wont be possible without rude hacks
22:06 VanessaE rather, AMD-or-nVidia-specific
22:07 sapier well what about mali adreno .... ?
22:07 VanessaE mail adrino?
22:07 VanessaE mali*
22:07 RealBadAngel btw, thats all about how mobiles are compared to boxes
22:07 RealBadAngel they cant do even shaders lol
22:07 sapier there's way more then those two gpu manufactures
22:08 RealBadAngel and try to convince me once again that PC's are dying rotfl
22:08 VanessaE sapier: oh, well I wasn't trying to single-out (dual-out?) those two
22:08 Calinou there's Intel…
22:08 VanessaE shaders are language-specific, either GLSL or HLSL
22:08 sapier RealBadAngel: obviously they can do shader just different to what your pc's do
22:08 VanessaE and afaik if it's GLSL and simple enough, it should work everywhere
22:08 RealBadAngel sapier, most of the effects are impossible
22:08 sapier thanks Calinou almost forgot the most important gpu supplier
22:09 RealBadAngel those units are just too weak
22:09 hmmmm dunno I'm gonna be honest here
22:09 Calinou you don't need to enable them on mobile, just on desktop
22:09 hmmmm most of RBA's advanced effects look cheesy imho
22:09 sapier high end mobile devices have more power then my desktop pc!
22:09 Calinou I'd like bloom/HDR :p
22:10 Calinou rather than the water shader which IMO brings nothing
22:10 hmmmm yeah agreed
22:10 VanessaE I wouldn't mind a basic bloom filter
22:10 VanessaE or whatever it is that causes light to "blur" around the edges of stuff
22:10 sapier well my pc is 7 years old atm so it's kind of unfair to compare :-)
22:10 Fixer PCs are not dying, it is just matured market, same will be for mobile in some future, calm down the hype
22:10 Calinou if water actually brought reflection/refraction it'd be useful
22:10 Calinou VanessaE, lens flare is also possible, and cheaper
22:10 hmmmm there's more to shaders than "make pixely nodes look blockier with tesselation/bumpmapping"
22:10 Calinou would work mostly for torches only
22:10 RealBadAngel hold your horses guys
22:10 RealBadAngel do you have multiple rendering passes?
22:10 RealBadAngel no?
22:11 RealBadAngel so no bloom :P
22:11 sapier Fixer: that's a matter of believe but imho PC's will get something like vinyl players  in near future
22:11 RealBadAngel atm i can code just geometry things
22:11 Calinou desktop PCs have never been so good…
22:11 VanessaE what's wrong with vinyl? ;)
22:12 RealBadAngel lens flare are also not possible Calinou
22:12 sapier nothing VanessaE just almost everyone uses CD's or in between many ppl use streaming
22:12 RealBadAngel we dont have rendering passes ;)
22:12 Calinou RealBadAngel, they're just sprites that are aligned to player view
22:12 Calinou Wolfenstein 3D had sprites that aligned to player view
22:12 Calinou how is this not possible?
22:12 VanessaE sapier: true
22:12 RealBadAngel aw, cmon, do sprites with shaders?
22:12 Fixer sapier, PC is needed for business and gamers, and that is big (but you don't need to upgrate that often anymore) :}
22:13 Calinou lens flares don't need shaders
22:13 RealBadAngel but can be done easliy with post process ones
22:13 sapier PC ain't even for business it's for sw-engeneers
22:13 VanessaE Calinou:  maybe but better to let the GPU handle that
22:13 est31 joined #minetest-dev
22:13 VanessaE minetest already stresses the CPU enough as it is
22:13 Fixer leave the CPU alone :}
22:13 est31 PC is needed by anybody who wants to do serious communication with machines
22:14 Fixer to do serious work
22:14 RealBadAngel so, who actually tried the water with filters on and off?
22:14 sapier I don't think any designer or office user will use a pc in near future they'll switch to some sort of terminal ... back to the past ;-)
22:14 est31 or serious work
22:14 Fixer not just laying in bed and whatever
22:14 Dragonop joined #minetest-dev
22:14 Calinou also, laptops are real PCs
22:14 est31 well yeah probably many offices will have these remote desktop thingies
22:14 VanessaE sapier: better that, than trying to do serious work on a tab
22:14 Calinou lots of people can work just fine with laptops, but they can't with tablets
22:14 Calinou Surface Pro is too small for lots of people :)
22:14 est31 yeah
22:14 Fixer Calinou, just mobile one's and craaaaaaaaapy
22:14 Calinou and also too expensive
22:15 RealBadAngel atm, all of you are just waiting for animation screenies or commenting the code
22:15 est31 tbh, I can't really use mobile only either
22:15 RealBadAngel without even trying it out
22:15 Fixer also 1366*768
22:15 Calinou Fixer, my laptop is 1920×1080 :p
22:15 * est31 needs a physical mouse
22:15 Calinou any decent laptop is
22:15 est31 touchpads are too slow
22:15 Calinou I would have went for 2560×1440 if possible
22:15 Fixer Calinou, walk in a store -> 95% is 1366*768 shit
22:15 Fixer sorry, i mean 95% of notebooks are shit
22:16 Fixer but that's offtopic, sorry
22:16 Calinou >implying anyone should buy laptops from a physical store
22:16 VanessaE Fixer: not entirely offtopic
22:16 * Fixer is silent
22:16 VanessaE notebooks have good hardware, but like any mobile device, they suffer on the GPU end.
22:16 est31 Calinou, sometimes when I buy sth from a physical store its not much more expensive than stuff bought from the internet
22:17 Calinou yeah, mobile GPUs are still very slow even on high-end laptops :(
22:17 Fixer est31, of course it is
22:17 Calinou my GTX 960M is much slower than my GTX 570
22:17 est31 and I am willing to pay 10% or so so that I have service without having to go to dhl for every little shit
22:17 Calinou …a graphics card from late 2010
22:17 est31 sending packages costs money too
22:17 Fixer est31, depends if the internet store is legal or in grey areas :}
22:17 Calinou est31, in France you probably have more service on the Internet than in physical stores… for instance, "retractation" which allows you to get a refund in 14 days without having to justify why
22:17 Calinou this is possible only when buying over the Internet
22:18 est31 yeah in germany too nobody is forced to do this
22:18 est31 but many shops do it
22:18 est31 its not such a bad deal for them
22:18 est31 after all, they get free money
22:18 est31 (for a time)
22:19 RealBadAngel anybody trying it or shall i close that pull, and stop complaining why i did something?
22:19 est31 so instead of having to go to the bank and lending it, they have the 14 day refunds
22:19 * VanessaE fumes
22:19 est31 VanessaE, too much offtopic?
22:19 * est31 sorry
22:19 VanessaE est31: too much RealBadAngel being butthurt :)
22:19 Fixer now that tablet sales are decelerating, people will moan about "post-tablet era" and invent a new mantra
22:20 RealBadAngel you have 15 minutes, if i dont any feedback i will just delete that code
22:20 RealBadAngel *get
22:20 sapier actually I believe future will be something like a docking station where you put your phone in when you're home and if you need more cpu power then your phone has you can buy it from cloud ... I don't like this kind of futuer but imho it's gonna happen
22:20 Fixer main goal is to force you buying and buying or they will be out of business obviously
22:20 Calinou things don't change as fast as one would hope, sapier
22:20 est31 yeah, something like sapier said will happen
22:21 est31 I already now have a dismantled desktop pc at home
22:21 est31 and sometimes I do a git bisect or stuff and I really could use some cpu build power
22:21 Calinou Canonical did make a concept where you could plug your phone to a desktop screen, and use it like a PC
22:21 Fixer "unix" terminal days? what a joke :}
22:21 Calinou this would be valid if phones were actually powerful… but they're not :)
22:21 RealBadAngel clearly, i dont have to wait, deleting the shader PRs now
22:21 Fixer history repeats itself
22:21 * VanessaE clones them all, just in case.
22:22 Calinou PC won't die because for some people, i7-5960X and 64 GB of RAM is not enough :>
22:22 Fixer tablet is not enough
22:22 Fixer and notebook too
22:22 est31 tablet is little toy for kids
22:23 est31 I've thought I buy a tablet for taking uni notes, but there still is too much lag, it cant be compared to real paper
22:23 sapier Calinou: what's an i7-5960x compared to x-hundred-thousand cores in cloud?
22:23 est31 I even see that lag in their fscking commercials, even if they do their best to hide it
22:23 Calinou something that's not bandwidth-constrained
22:23 Calinou it'll take a long time before everyone has 4G and/or optic fiber
22:23 Fixer it is just matured market, people don't want to upgrade anymore and practically everyone has a computer or whatever
22:24 est31 but well, as tablets are toys, they are the best hardware to run minetest on
22:24 Calinou Fixer, my dad has 2009 iMac and Pentium D PC
22:24 Calinou I concur :p
22:24 Calinou slow as hell, but still uses it
22:24 Fixer that developers tried hard to eat a lot of memory and disk space... but well -ck them
22:24 sapier a tablet is a screen, imho it could replace my second monitor I usually use for reading docs without any problem if it wasn't hat ugly to get the data there
22:24 Fixer Calinou, that is not even old
22:24 VanessaE RealBadAngel: stop being so damned butthurt and COMPROMISE
22:24 Fixer Calinou, any >2000 with at least 2Gb is usable
22:24 RealBadAngel i am being HURT because nobody tries to SEE what ive done
22:25 Calinou not really if you want to use recent Windows, or even anything more than Lubuntu
22:25 Fixer Calinou, it is not like in 80s and 90s
22:25 Calinou if I were to build a desktop PC for my parents I'd put 8 GB of RAM in, and a Core i3
22:25 RealBadAngel reading the code you can stick in the ass when you havet seen it in action
22:25 Calinou + SSD
22:25 Fixer RealBadAngel, any compiled windows binaries?
22:25 Calinou Celeron/HDD/4 GB is sure possible, but won't feel nearly as good
22:25 Fixer Calinou, i already have that :} need to buy SSD though
22:25 sapier a lightweight tablet in a4 or letter format with induction loading support ... nice to have, sadly this ain't produced by anyone by now
22:25 RealBadAngel all of you are not playing, not trying the pulls
22:25 Calinou which is why a few people prefer tablets nowadays…
22:25 RealBadAngel just commenting whites :P
22:26 Fixer RealBadAngel, i play, but git version
22:26 RealBadAngel im talking bout devs
22:26 Fixer i have not setup my building env
22:26 Calinou I play CTF daily or so :p
22:26 RealBadAngel all of them are just github readers
22:26 Fixer i have XP in VM, need to install compilers and stuff
22:27 sapier ok rba I've built your new_shaders version where to see the new shaders?
22:27 RealBadAngel ive spent months to make water shaders perfect, and nobody is even want to try them out
22:27 est31 one has to download the shaders as well I think
22:27 RealBadAngel and i shouldnt be in that case pissed off?
22:27 * est31 tries the new mapgen pr then I try yours RBA
22:27 sapier << RealBadAngel wanting to try tell me how! ;-)
22:28 est31 I've looked at the lava shaders in the past, but your water stuff was WIP so I didn't check it out
22:28 RealBadAngel sapier, ive pasted you link with HOW-TO two times today already
22:29 RealBadAngel and you all keep commenting why i forced filtering on made possible
22:29 RealBadAngel damn, take a look why
22:29 Calinou why do we need water/lava shaders? aren't animated textures enough?
22:29 Calinou unless you bring reflection/refraction to the table, I'm not convinced
22:30 RealBadAngel Calinou, idk, because some would want NICE water?
22:30 RealBadAngel talking bout reflections....
22:30 RealBadAngel that will be also not possible without that PR
22:30 Calinou I find the water texture and color pretty decent
22:30 Calinou the post effect is nice now, although fog would be even better
22:30 sapier intersting ... but not really like water
22:30 RealBadAngel and special texures
22:31 sapier reminds me more about fog ... very very dense fog
22:31 RealBadAngel color is exactly the same as for the original texture
22:31 RealBadAngel in fact color is used here instead of reflection texture
22:31 RealBadAngel so atm its fixed
22:32 RealBadAngel anyway, it wont be possible at all
22:33 RealBadAngel i mean with changes to the shaders and later on rendering system
22:33 sapier the water shader would be great if used as cloud shader
22:33 RealBadAngel same as relief mapping wasnt possible without tangent space
22:34 RealBadAngel so highly hated change, especially by hmmmm
22:34 VanessaE no one hates it
22:34 VanessaE they hate your intent to force the client to filter it.
22:35 VanessaE where it == the proposed liquid shaders.
22:35 VanessaE that's all.
22:35 RealBadAngel i had same fights when i was forceing tangent space vertices
22:35 sapier we like it just ignoring user settings isn't what we like ... no matter how good the result for some systems may be
22:35 RealBadAngel because you all have saw no usage for it
22:35 RealBadAngel now you can compare it
22:35 RealBadAngel so, who tried?
22:36 RealBadAngel nobody?
22:36 sapier no it's not about it's usage it's about a setting called "no shaders/filtering" no means no and not "no but..."
22:36 RealBadAngel this is not a setting
22:36 sapier I just tried your new_shaders branch according to the howto you wrote ... thought that was clear from my comments
22:36 RealBadAngel ok
22:37 RealBadAngel have you saw water with and without filters?
22:37 sapier don't know
22:37 RealBadAngel edit the mod
22:37 sapier yes filtering is disabled
22:37 RealBadAngel and change filter to false
22:37 sapier ok
22:38 RealBadAngel menu options do not apply for that node
22:38 VanessaE sapier:  take a video of the result please :)
22:38 sapier hmm
22:38 RealBadAngel leave menu filtering disabled, and change only mod setting
22:38 sapier imho the water does even look better without filtering ... *sorry*
22:38 RealBadAngel awwwww
22:39 RealBadAngel take a closer look
22:39 VanessaE RealBadAngel: I told you.
22:39 kaadmy_mobile joined #minetest-dev
22:39 sapier I do, I like the pixel style way better then the filtered one which doesn't look like water ... pixels look almost like little waves
22:40 RealBadAngel pixels chasing each other, of different size you dare to call nicer than smooth waves?!?
22:40 sapier yes because the "smooth" water doesn't look like water to me ... it's tooo smooth
22:40 RealBadAngel ok i give up
22:40 RealBadAngel i must be blind, crazy or something
22:41 sapier if you have a look at the sea you you usually see small breaking waves
22:41 sapier the smoothed version does look more like crawling fog
22:41 sapier of course that's not an objective interpretation
22:41 RealBadAngel the size of it is to be decided
22:42 RealBadAngel please do note that effective repetitions of made "texture" are not of a node size
22:42 RealBadAngel its more like 8x8
22:42 Fixer post the screenshots!
22:43 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/m37D035.png
22:44 RealBadAngel ofc you want see flow of the water on the screenie
22:45 Fixer RealBadAngel, what are those triangles?
22:45 Fixer on right side
22:45 RealBadAngel sides of liquid nodes
22:46 RealBadAngel same as before, thats water drawtype designed propably by c55
22:46 RealBadAngel whole the water on the right side of the screen is flowing one
22:46 RealBadAngel to the left you have a sea
22:47 RealBadAngel with shaders, it is blending quite nicely
22:47 sapier RealBadAngel: still this shader doesn't look like water to me :-/ ... and does reset after some seconds/minutes causing a jump
22:47 VanessaE sapier: isn't that a known bug in shaders in general?
22:48 sapier I don't know I usually don't use shaders
22:48 RealBadAngel sapier, that jump is some animationTimer glitch, to be observed everywhere
22:48 RealBadAngel havent found the reason for it yet
22:48 sapier Just wanted to  mention as noone could fix it if it was related to the shader
22:48 sapier http://imgur.com/a/fBdpZ not sure if imgur didn't compress the images too much
22:49 RealBadAngel i need to fix it, because many things depend on that timer
22:49 RealBadAngel idk why it jumps
22:49 VanessaE sapier: wait, which one's not filtered?
22:49 sapier lower ones seem to be unfiltered
22:49 VanessaE wait I think I see it
22:49 VanessaE if THAT is what un-filtered looks like?  to hell with filters.
22:49 sapier but you can see the pixels way more if it's not compressed
22:50 VanessaE how does the animation compare?
22:50 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
22:50 RealBadAngel better see lava unfiltered: http://i.imgur.com/Q1zDYLr.png
22:50 sapier I didn't notice any difference except of pixels on the edges
22:50 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/FKANK9x.png
22:50 RealBadAngel and compare
22:50 VanessaE RealBadAngel: I see nothing particularly wrong with it unfiltered.  reminds me of low-quality jpeg :P
22:51 VanessaE it obviously looks way better with filtering
22:51 sapier if I had to choose what to fix pixels or strange waves I'd decide to want the waves fixed
22:51 RealBadAngel here effect is more visible, because it is using 16px as a color map too
22:52 sapier those just aren't water waves
22:52 RealBadAngel but those lava shaders pictures are outdated
22:52 sapier looks like what see in timelapse videos of the upper side of clouds
22:53 RealBadAngel this was before i started to use proper heightmaps and relief mapping for lava
22:53 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/q3dArah.png
22:53 sapier where to get that shader?
22:53 RealBadAngel hold on
22:54 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBad​Angel/lava_surface_shaders
22:54 RealBadAngel thats a shader to be put into /client/shaders
22:54 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBadAngel/shaded_lava
22:54 RealBadAngel and thats a mod using it
22:55 RealBadAngel please do note that in case of lava shader theres no fallback to default lava as it is with water one
22:56 RealBadAngel so just test it with shaders only
22:56 sapier where to get default.LIGHT_MAX from?
22:56 RealBadAngel its defined in default?
22:57 sapier guess minimal ain't enough?
22:57 RealBadAngel this mod is meant to override default lava def
22:57 RealBadAngel so most of it is just a copy from there
22:57 troller joined #minetest-dev
22:58 sapier just say "yes"
23:00 sapier doesn't look like your screenshot
23:02 RealBadAngel can yoo make one?
23:03 sapier http://imgur.com/btxu4fK quite static doesn't look like the shader works at all
23:04 RealBadAngel check shader folder
23:04 sapier theres two files in lava_surface_shaders
23:06 RealBadAngel no extra folder?
23:06 sapier there was but it didn't work with subfolder lava_surface_shaders too
23:06 RealBadAngel there should be /client/shaders/lava_surface_shader/ those files
23:06 sapier yes the files are in this folder
23:07 RealBadAngel you said "lava_surface_shaders"
23:07 RealBadAngel it should be "lava_surface_shader"
23:07 RealBadAngel as defined in mod
23:07 sapier ohhhh
23:07 sapier s
23:09 RealBadAngel any better?
23:10 sapier way better
23:10 * sofar & jetlag
23:10 sapier but still way of what I see on your screenshot
23:11 RealBadAngel please make the screenie again
23:11 sapier I see node limits for example and  flow is way less detailed
23:11 RealBadAngel flow is not fixed in this shader yet
23:12 RealBadAngel ive focused there rather on flat surface
23:12 RealBadAngel well, rather on makin the flat one not such flat ;)
23:12 sapier I'm talking about the wave flow not flowing lava
23:13 sapier http://imgur.com/SiFwZg4
23:14 VanessaE borders between nodes.
23:14 RealBadAngel i may be having different code there, this repo was not really meant to be public yet
23:14 sapier yes I didn't see those borders on water shaders
23:15 troller joined #minetest-dev
23:15 RealBadAngel this one is quite different
23:15 RealBadAngel with lava one i am using actual texures and the heightmaps
23:16 sapier without the borders I'd quite like it for standing lava ... for flowing it's strange ;-)
23:16 sapier I don't see any height differences
23:16 RealBadAngel hold on a minute, i will get the right shader code
23:17 sapier you should really fix the timer issue it's making me crazy ;-)
23:18 sapier imho it's a blocker for shaders like this one
23:19 sapier it's unacceptable whole image is reset every now and then ;-)
23:20 RealBadAngel ok, ive got the code
23:20 RealBadAngel http://pastie.org/10648149
23:21 RealBadAngel replace whole fragment shader with it
23:21 RealBadAngel make a flat lava surface and fly around lookin at it
23:23 RealBadAngel need to fine tune it, but its already nice
23:23 RealBadAngel and yes, i definitely need to hunt down that timer thing
23:24 RealBadAngel its propably been wrong since the very begining
23:26 sapier I still have borders
23:27 RealBadAngel yeah, but you shall be able to see heights
23:27 RealBadAngel i havent polished that shader because of PR hanging there
23:27 RealBadAngel without the PR this shader cant work at all
23:28 sapier nope, but i disabled waving does this have any effect on it?
23:28 RealBadAngel no it doesnt wave
23:29 RealBadAngel with detailed surfaces waving is kinda obsolete
23:29 RealBadAngel at least imho
23:29 RealBadAngel ah, and it does use old relief mapping
23:30 RealBadAngel ive updated the code for it recently
23:30 sapier ok for this shader the effect with filtering is better then without
23:31 RealBadAngel much more visible degradation
23:31 sapier yet imho this is quite subjective as said for the water shader I'd prefere the non filtered version
23:31 RealBadAngel because in this case three textures are used
23:32 sapier I don't think so imho it's because of water flow is way more fine then what I'd expect from lava
23:32 RealBadAngel do note thats up to mod to decide on it
23:32 sapier so the pixels make lava look unnatural while on watter the look likesome substructure
23:33 RealBadAngel in water shader ive implemented math based on normals/binormals
23:33 RealBadAngel its not done in lava at all
23:33 RealBadAngel the lava shader is just hanging out there not finished
23:34 RealBadAngel just no point to develop it any furher when engine doesnt allow it
23:35 sapier still imho the lava shader looks way better then the water shader atm
23:35 RealBadAngel sapier, thats a bit of taste, dont you think so?
23:36 RealBadAngel i mean those pixelated structures
23:36 sapier sorry I know that's not what you wanna hear
23:36 RealBadAngel im highly after it being smooth
23:36 sapier those maybe but I'd suggest asking ppl about the water shader
23:36 sapier for me this one would be a reason to disable shaders
23:36 sapier it's just strange
23:36 kaadmy_mobile what's the shader do?
23:36 RealBadAngel imagine reflection on this surface
23:37 RealBadAngel and that day will come
23:37 sapier makes water look like cloud surface
23:37 kaadmy_mobile water reflections like in terasology?
23:37 RealBadAngel like in ANY other modern game
23:37 sapier doesn't matter RealBadAngel water ain't that smooth
23:37 kaadmy_mobile then i like it until i can prove otherwise ;)
23:37 RealBadAngel including minecraft and terasology and build a world or name any other voxel game
23:38 kaadmy_mobile xonotic and assaultcube has it
23:38 sapier http://weknowyourdreams.com/imag​e.php?pic=/images/sea/sea-03.jpg
23:38 sapier http://weknowyourdreams.com/imag​e.php?pic=/images/sea/sea-08.jpg
23:38 kaadmy_mobile even assaultcube has it...
23:38 sapier there aren't round waves
23:38 RealBadAngel sapier, the water shader code is based on one guys work
23:38 sapier I know RealBadAngel and you're really doing great work
23:39 RealBadAngel do you really wanna see how will the shader look like complere?
23:39 RealBadAngel *complete?
23:39 sapier it'd be great yes
23:39 kaadmy_mobile any screenshots of the shader in action?
23:39 RealBadAngel theres just reflection missing
23:39 RealBadAngel other code is the same (except for some my own changes)
23:39 kaadmy_mobile imo caustics would also be big graphical improvement
23:40 VanessaE caustics?
23:40 sapier ok then I'l wait for it, I'm just hoping you're not walking the wrong path spending too much time on it RealBadAngel it'd make me quite sad
23:40 kaadmy_mobile look at tesseract's trailer
23:40 RealBadAngel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkdBGe8tfNw
23:41 RealBadAngel look at this final effect
23:42 RealBadAngel and try to say its not worth havin it
23:42 VanessaE can't say I expect MT to have shaders THAT good any time soon.
23:43 sapier hard to tell he's moving around quite quickly ;) oso you can't relly tell
23:43 sapier but for what I see it impressive
23:43 sapier and a long way to go
23:43 kaadmy_mobile love that effect ;)
23:46 RealBadAngel i just need further engine changes
23:46 kaadmy_mobile go to around 3:50 in this vid http://youtube.com/watch?v=3fOpHRrOBJQ
23:46 RealBadAngel whats most funny, i do have reflection code for irrlicht rdy, found some sources that do that
23:47 RealBadAngel sapier, https://github.com/RealBadAngel/terrainTest
23:47 DFeniks joined #minetest-dev
23:48 RealBadAngel this app have user defined shader materials, post processing and rendering phases
23:48 sapier nice to know but it's late today I'll check it another day
23:48 RealBadAngel it could be quite nice to get such changes
23:49 sapier conclusion, lava shader is (except the borders) and of course the time bug amost production ready ... water (sad to tell) requires some additional work
23:49 RealBadAngel water is here just as a proof of concept
23:50 RealBadAngel main subject is a PR that allows all those things
23:50 sapier considering this it's quite good true
23:50 sapier but doesn't change the fact that it's not subject to a node to change the users graphics settings
23:50 RealBadAngel i dont demand water to be a part of minetest_game
23:51 RealBadAngel but games with HD gfx, may want it as is
23:51 sapier still if you do sett graphics quality to "low" you expect it too look bad thus why should some node change this on it's own
23:52 sapier if ppl enable shaders because they make the game look so much better we will set it to default by some time
23:52 RealBadAngel atm im pretty confused
23:53 sapier well there are a lot of unconnected ends in minetest graphics
23:53 kaadmy_mobile imo the parallax mapping really doesn't fit in MT
23:53 sapier none of it as single part do make sense
23:53 sapier e.g. perfect shaders make lot of other parts look even worse
23:53 RealBadAngel kaadmy_mobile, parallax mapping is kinda obsolete now
23:54 RealBadAngel we are using relief mapping
23:54 kaadmy_mobile i know, i don't use it
23:54 sapier you can't push one part of the game to ultra high quality while everything else looks like prototype compared to it
23:54 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/HePeu7h.png
23:55 RealBadAngel (this is what im working on atm)
23:55 sapier this is a good example .... it's a nice effect really ... but I wouldn't wanna play that way for long
23:55 kaadmy_mobile that's what i mean it looks bad
23:56 RealBadAngel thats a matter of taste
23:56 sapier exactly this is quite special
23:56 kaadmy_mobile the relief/parallax/offset mapping doesn't work too well with low resolution textures
23:56 RealBadAngel this is example of built in versy simple effect
23:56 sapier I guess there are ppl out there relly loving that style
23:56 RealBadAngel and a single normal map
23:56 RealBadAngel for everything
23:57 RealBadAngel so it means this effect is very cheap
23:57 kaadmy_mobile normal mapping would look good if there were real time lights
23:57 RealBadAngel we dont have them yet
23:58 RealBadAngel and normal mapping is not only about lights
23:58 RealBadAngel so the relief
23:58 sapier why are we always discussing the big things instead of fixing the small ones really doing harm ? :-)
23:58 RealBadAngel its about to make things not flat
23:58 RealBadAngel sapier, please consider that my changes are continous mostly
23:59 RealBadAngel i cant make new things with previous commits
23:59 sapier Minetest reminds me of a big prototype ... we always have cool new features in there but noone ever wants do do the polishing ;-)
23:59 RealBadAngel all the time im developing the same thing, the LOOK
23:59 kaadmy_mobile yep
23:59 RealBadAngel sapier, i do the polishing, to the look
23:59 RealBadAngel this is what i can do the best

| Channels | #minetest-dev index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext