Time  Nick          Message
03:45 est31         grumble grumble
03:45 est31         http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16922871/why-glibcs-fclosenull-cause-segmentation-fault-instead-of-returning-error#comment37411818_16922924
04:15 lezzy         https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/751
04:30 lezzy         https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/752
14:20 vitaminx      hi all, I have a problem with my minetest server and I wonder if you could help me, a couple of times per day the server suddenly eats all of it's RAM (e.g. minetestserver uses 300 MB, then suddenly from one moment to another it takes all 2GB from the server) - and then minetestserver is killed by the OS (Linux) because out of memory
14:21 Calinou       vitaminx, latest Git or stable 0.4.13?
14:21 vitaminx      both
14:21 vitaminx      0.4.11 and 0.4.13
14:21 vitaminx      theres a huge amount of this messages in logs:
14:21 vitaminx      initBlockMake(): (-33,-1934,-60) - (-33,-1934,-60)
14:21 vitaminx      p=(-33,-1934,-58) allow_generate=1
14:21 vitaminx      not in memory, attempting to load from disk
14:22 vitaminx      generating
14:22 vitaminx      i was googleing and found that -33,-1934,-60 seems to be block coordinates which is extremely far
14:23 vitaminx      i was wondering how to translate these block coords to node coords?
14:24 Calinou       a block is 16×16×16
14:29 Krock         so multiplicate everything by 16 to get the absolute position
14:29 vitaminx      ok thanks, lets see whats at this coord :)
14:34 vitaminx      ok yes, when i travel to that location the map under my feet doesnt generate and the server crashes
14:34 vitaminx      by consuming all server RAM
14:37 vitaminx      is that a known problem that the server can't handle y> -30944 ?
14:37 vitaminx      i mean y<
14:38 kaadmy        they're different :)
14:38 Krock         Isn't that the lowest position?
14:38 kaadmy        negative coords go up
14:38 kaadmy        wait down
14:38 Krock         negative is down
14:39 Krock         positive is up, otherwise the mt. everest would be 8048m under sea
14:39 vitaminx      yes, is that the lowest position minetest can handle?
14:39 Krock         oh sorry, I meant Mt. Minetest
14:39 kaadmy        the ~31000 node limit is known, 16 bit signed int limitation afaik
14:40 Krock         -32768 to be exact.. however, there's some space in between
14:40 vitaminx      ok good then i think i have to limit the /teleport command somehow to avoid players crashing the server to their likings :)
14:40 vitaminx      thanks for the info
14:43 kaadmy        https://github.com/kaadmy/pixture/blob/master/mods/default/player.lua#L15
14:44 Krock         *cough* if math.abs(player_pos.x) > 30000 then
14:45 Krock         what if you fall down there?
14:48 vitaminx      i have never seen that "Don't go past 30000m in any direction!" message
14:49 vitaminx      player:setpos(player_lastpos[name]) doesn't seem to work
14:49 kaadmy        i added that part
14:50 vitaminx      just now?
14:50 vitaminx      wow
14:50 kaadmy        yes, there's more code needed, namely the globalstep and the player's positions
14:50 vitaminx      awesome, thanks :D
14:51 kaadmy        that's part of Pixture though, not i n minetest_game
14:55 vitaminx      i' going to add your change to my server too
14:55 vitaminx      thanks :)
15:01 vitaminx      kaadmy, your change crashes the server :D
15:01 kaadmy        it does... works for pixture, whats the error?
15:01 vitaminx      player.lua:131: a        ttempt to index global 'player_lastpos' (a nil value)
15:02 vitaminx      i guess when a player connects his player_lastpos is nil
15:03 kaadmy        look at my on_joinplayer function
15:04 vitaminx      ok i see
15:04 kaadmy        and you might want to make ot nil when the player quits
15:05 vitaminx      that would still be a problem when a player connects who was beyond 30000 limit when he last left the game
15:06 kaadmy        ah yes
15:07 kaadmy        maybe put them at the static_spawnpoint if player_lastpos is farther then 30000?
15:10 vitaminx      yes, i'm doing that
15:14 Krock         kaadmy, "fart er"?
15:14 kaadmy        um
15:39 vitaminx      thanks for the help, the limits work now :(
15:39 vitaminx      :)
15:39 vitaminx      if someone's last_pos is off limits too, he is simply teleported to spawn
15:40 vitaminx      see you :)
17:19 kaadmy        you have network problems? :)
19:35 RealBadAngel  hi guys, whats up?
19:36 RealBadAngel  sapier, ive commented your "ingot" drawtype
19:39 sapier        I don't know realbadangel but the commit does implement exactly what you suggest ;-)
19:41 RealBadAngel  i mean mesh is ok, the drawtype is wrong
19:41 sapier        then why don't you write it that way? ;-)
19:41 RealBadAngel  also the commit is not about to show meshes in inventories
19:41 sapier        it is
19:41 sapier        it started with custom ingot type but that one is already removed again ;-)
19:42 RealBadAngel  you are using old way, to make a scene and prepare texture for further use
19:42 sapier        oh this is what you're talking about
19:42 RealBadAngel  yes
19:42 sapier        is there a new way?
19:42 RealBadAngel  ofc it is
19:42 sapier        where?
19:42 RealBadAngel  see minimap
19:42 RealBadAngel  it is displaying a mesh
19:42 sapier        minimap ain't inventory
19:43 RealBadAngel  technique is important
19:43 sapier        and the only thing I heared about minimap by now is it's causing framedrop of about 90% ;-)
19:43 RealBadAngel  theres absolutely no reason to render the scene to get texture
19:43 RealBadAngel  you can display mesh
19:44 sapier        well obviously noone did implement this for inventory
19:44 RealBadAngel  sapier, on slow boxes thats propably right
19:44 sapier        so there's no new way for this ... I'd have used it ;-)
19:44 RealBadAngel  but im not developing stuff for museum
19:45 sapier        well if you consider android phones as museum stuff ;-P
19:45 sapier        slow doesn't mean old in a lot of cases
19:45 RealBadAngel  android and other portable devices are kinda joke
19:45 RealBadAngel  they pretend to be computers
19:45 RealBadAngel  but they wont be for a long time
19:45 RealBadAngel  not yet
19:45 sapier        those "jokes" you mentioned drive 90% of current society
19:46 sapier        no matter what they are as of technical perspective their presence is a matter of fact ;)
19:46 RealBadAngel  that not an argument
19:46 RealBadAngel  you cant deny the engine is not made for mobiles
19:47 sapier        but that's irrelevant for the discussion can you please update your comment to actually reflect what you wanted to tell ;-)
19:47 RealBadAngel  at last at their current stage
19:47 RealBadAngel  thyere way behind regular pc
19:47 RealBadAngel  and that wont change any soon
19:47 sapier        I don't deny it but imho we shouldn't add things that cause 90% framedrop as default if there's no need for it too
19:48 RealBadAngel  regular PC has power to do things
19:48 sapier        imho pc doesn't have future
19:48 RealBadAngel  and i will use it
19:48 RealBadAngel  lol
19:48 sapier        atm you're loughing but let's talk about it in about 5 years from now
19:48 RealBadAngel  in 5 yrs situation can change
19:49 sapier        there ain't any mainstream os out there which requires a pc
19:49 RealBadAngel  but i highly doubt so
19:49 exio4         is the minimap updated too frequently?
19:49 exio4         are those updates done in a separate thread?
19:49 RealBadAngel  not really
19:49 RealBadAngel  yes
19:49 sapier        windows 10 is basicaly a cloud os which moves everything you wanted to cloud android always was quite coupled to cloud and ios is too
19:50 RealBadAngel  on my box it was possible to run minimap at 60 fps
19:50 RealBadAngel  and im on low end i3
19:50 sapier        on pc minimap aint a problem
19:50 RealBadAngel  try to run it on any "multicore" portable watch like computer
19:51 RealBadAngel  on my galaxy tab 4 i had to disable multitasking and multiple apps running same time
19:51 sapier        Still it's been about mesh items for what I remember there ain't any code out there really rendering them is it?
19:51 RealBadAngel  because it was draining battery in like 1,5h
19:52 RealBadAngel  ok, lets leave offtopic now
19:52 RealBadAngel  you can set a window and display there a mesh of your choice
19:52 RealBadAngel  minimap is done as a flat mesh with single texture
19:52 sapier        no I can't ;-)
19:53 RealBadAngel  but it can be any mesh
19:53 sapier        I == me personal
19:53 sapier        as I don't know how to do it and there's not even similar code to it  ;-)
19:53 RealBadAngel  so, if you can display any mesh, easily, why bother to set render scene, fiddle and collect the texture?
19:54 sapier        well that'd touch formspec code which I've promised myself never ever to touch again
19:54 RealBadAngel  this is total waste of time and the resources
19:54 sapier        if it's that easy why didn't someone already do it ?
19:54 RealBadAngel  damn, it could be easy to set selected one rotating
19:54 RealBadAngel  for example
19:55 RealBadAngel  i cant code 20 things at the time :P
19:55 sapier        And I can't do it at all because I don't know how to do it
19:55 RealBadAngel  displaying is not that hard
19:56 sapier        I just know I'd have to get those entities somehow to scene and get it out of it later which is way beyond my knowledge about minetests rendering engine
19:56 RealBadAngel  propably replacing formspec methods will be more time consuming
19:56 sapier        don't mention the name
19:56 RealBadAngel  sapier, wait a sec, i will point you a piece of code
19:57 sapier        next time you mention the words "replacing" and "formspec" to me I'm out ;-P
19:57 sapier        if it's formspec you can save the time as I'm not gonna even look at it ;-)
19:57 sapier        for sure not
19:58 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/minimap.cpp#L471
19:58 RealBadAngel  you just set a new viewport
19:58 RealBadAngel  and display there a mesh of your choice
19:59 RealBadAngel  viewport can be of inventory slot size
19:59 RealBadAngel  thats all
19:59 sapier        I don't even know how to setup a viewport properly and I'm quite sure I'd have to manage them for cleanup too ... and next is inventory is part of FORMSPEC ... no no I burnt my fingers to often there
20:00 RealBadAngel  read this code
20:00 RealBadAngel  you just set pos and size
20:00 sapier        nope formspec code is out of question for me
20:01 RealBadAngel  chicken ;)
20:02 sapier        well I added a simple no use no change feature pull and read the conversation ;-)
20:03 sapier        what do you believe will happen if there's a actual change in regular game?!
20:03 RealBadAngel  you made it all backwards
20:04 sapier        btw this pull wouldn't cause any legacy issues if you did later implement it the way you suggest
20:04 sapier        no i didn't I just used what's current
20:04 sapier        can't help about you thinking in future features not yet implemented by yourself ;-)
20:05 RealBadAngel  in case you havent noticed im turning all the drawtypes into meshes
20:06 sapier        hopefully you'll be more successfull then me when even trying to add something different then extruded images ;-P
20:06 RealBadAngel  i have effectively made nodeboxes obsolote
20:07 sapier        good ... they've been crap since they have been added
20:07 RealBadAngel  ive made another extrustion code, yeah
20:07 sapier        imho of course
20:07 sapier        well it's only usefull for quite limited part of items
20:07 RealBadAngel  quite different that two previous attempts
20:07 sapier        most just look horrible
20:07 RealBadAngel  not rly
20:07 RealBadAngel  i intend to make 3d l-system plants
20:08 RealBadAngel  old plantlike is just a step to be taken on the way
20:08 sapier        still till you finished it we could add the mesh item thingy you'd already have the item meshes you'll need anyway
20:09 RealBadAngel  so drop the specific drawtypes ideas, made evertyhin use provided meshes
20:09 RealBadAngel  if theres no mesh, fallback to old code
20:11 RealBadAngel  you can make then any mesh for your ingots
20:12 RealBadAngel  and when im done with plants, i will make formspec displaying them
20:12 RealBadAngel  so we will get rid of preloading item visuals
20:13 sapier        did you notice there's no ingot drawtype in the current version of that pull?!?
20:14 RealBadAngel  i did but i know what was the idea behind it and where it started
20:14 RealBadAngel  just havent time before to comment it out
20:14 sapier        well in the begining ther was the word
20:14 RealBadAngel  better later than never right? ;)
20:15 sapier        well if the comment doesn't even match the current topic it may cause more harm then help ;-)
20:16 RealBadAngel  sorry then, didnt wanted to cause any harm
20:16 sapier        I renamed the pull obviously the initial special ingot thingy is dead and the actual later mesh only variant is better ... as I blieve noone will actually notice the change and realize all the upper comments are invalid I'll close the pull create a new branch reflecting the current topic of it and create a new pull ;-)
20:17 RealBadAngel  as i did already? ;)
20:17 RealBadAngel  propably youre right
20:18 RealBadAngel  but dont worry, time taken to learn how define meshes and uv is not lost
20:19 RealBadAngel  there will be still specific meshes done runtime, we still dont have cables etc
20:20 RealBadAngel  on the other hand we shall drop such idiotic drawtypes as torches or ladders
20:20 RealBadAngel  especially torches
20:21 RealBadAngel  spaier, btw, have you saw video with waving 3d plants already?
20:22 sapier        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3479 better?
20:22 sapier        code is 100% identical ;-) just squashed the commits adding and removing the special type
20:24 sapier        if 3479 is added chances there will be meshes for major types by the time you replace inventory textures by actual renderings would drasticaly increas
20:24 sapier        e
20:24 RealBadAngel  thats the clue of the change
20:24 RealBadAngel  just let them use meshes
20:25 RealBadAngel  see, if theres a mesh defined, formspec code can show them directly
20:25 RealBadAngel  at any size, rotation or whatever
20:26 RealBadAngel  also there wont be any extra texture for such items
20:26 RealBadAngel  so it will be saving ram
20:27 RealBadAngel  thats worthy goal, dont you think so?
20:28 VanessaE      not to mention saving on startup time :)
20:28 RealBadAngel  that too
20:28 RealBadAngel  and personally i would love to see selected item in the inventory to spin
20:29 sapier        well for the moment we don't have anything like it and quite some ppl which don't wanna miss their 16x16 item textures
20:29 RealBadAngel  you can make 16px models
20:30 sapier        I can write 30 minutes of 3d video in 100kb too ... well not me personal ;-)
20:30 RealBadAngel  i will make such models for all the plants at the end
20:30 sapier        you could do it maybe
20:30 RealBadAngel  i will export the mehses just
20:30 RealBadAngel  once done, no need to recalcuate them each time
20:31 sapier        what I'm trying to tell is 3479 provides (visual) same as what you're gonna implement at first step with way less code changes and full upwards compatibility ;-) so why not merge it till your code is completed?
20:32 RealBadAngel  yours change is worht mergeing already
20:32 sapier        the only thing that may happen is you may suffer from "not invented here"-syndrom because you might have to use someone elses meshes which have become popular in between
20:32 sapier        if and only if someone really does create meshes ;-)
20:32 RealBadAngel  i wont
20:33 RealBadAngel  they will create them
20:33 sapier        I wont do it for sure as the meshes are part of game :-)
20:33 RealBadAngel  just give them a way
20:34 sapier        in this case we don't have any problem too ... the only thing relevant is if calling the parameters "mesh" and "meshtexture" is what you want/need for your future implementation
20:34 sapier        I usually don't care about names so if you prefere different naming I'll change it
20:34 RealBadAngel  see mesh drawtype
20:35 RealBadAngel  textures are given in "tiles"
20:36 RealBadAngel  one single texture can hold everything
20:36 RealBadAngel  also, theres another reason to introduce different "tiles" field
20:36 sapier        so meshtexture should be renamed to "tiles" for historc reasons?
20:37 sapier        which reason?
20:37 RealBadAngel  ive extended recently tiles a lot
20:37 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: one single texture often should NOT hold "everything"
20:37 RealBadAngel  not in meshes
20:38 VanessaE      most meshes I make use multiple textures/materials because then the collection of files used can be smaller than a single texture (think unused space in the image), and it makes HDX support much easier
20:38 RealBadAngel  also, my extension to tiles is an ability to specify two additional texutres for the mesh and the shader
20:39 RealBadAngel  you can bound there easily, noise map, normal map or whatever the texure with special data for rendering
20:40 RealBadAngel  i mean thats very generic thing, so there shall not be any other specific ones imho
20:40 sapier        so tiles is either a string or a table of strings?
20:41 RealBadAngel  tile can be a set of 3 textures
20:41 RealBadAngel  diffuse, normal plus the special
20:41 sapier        why not four?
20:41 RealBadAngel  4th is reserved for shader flags
20:41 sapier        ok then why not 5?
20:42 RealBadAngel  because irrlicht max materials is set to 4
20:42 RealBadAngel  we dont have our own irrlicht, we are using external libs
20:43 sapier        ok yet is there any logical reason to limit it to 3/4 whatever instead of just accepting whatever is passed and ignoring the ones we don't need atm?
20:43 RealBadAngel  if you compile it you can set that limit to whatever you wish
20:43 sapier        come one compile time limits are ugly
20:44 RealBadAngel  with bundled irrlicht you could set it to 16 and forget bout the problem
20:44 sapier        I'd suggest providing a tiles property accepting either "string" (a single texture) or table of strings (1+ tiles)
20:44 RealBadAngel  we do that already, kind of
20:45 RealBadAngel  what ive done is the extension to defining a single one
20:45 VanessaE      tiles should, in my opinion, be strictly image textures, not for normalmaps etc.
20:45 sapier        ok then we don't have to change anything and I'll just rename "meshtexture" to "tiles"
20:45 RealBadAngel  you can define it as a single texture field, or a table with lotsa other settings
20:45 VanessaE      for those, there should be a separate item def field.
20:45 RealBadAngel  sapier, yeah
20:45 sapier        ok guys settle yourself and I'm gonna change it to whatever you've decided
20:46 RealBadAngel  that mechanism was already there
20:46 RealBadAngel  lava, water animations were defined as tables already
20:46 RealBadAngel  so the tile could be a table long way before my changes
20:48 sapier        true but as of me I always considered "tile" as some kind of legacy naming
20:48 RealBadAngel  sapier, https://github.com/RealBadAngel/shaded_lava/blob/master/init.lua#L1
20:48 RealBadAngel  see sample nodes using new method
20:49 sapier        lava source node? ... You've got a talent for bad examples equal to mine ;)
20:50 RealBadAngel  better try the code live before commenting :)
20:50 sapier        on the other hand it's quite smart to add it for something nobody sees first an later tell everyone "it's in there for ages"
20:50 RealBadAngel  the shader was here for ages
20:51 RealBadAngel  but now i thx to tangent space i was able to polish it
20:51 sapier        well disabled by almost everyone because of not working correct ;) *joking*
20:51 RealBadAngel  damn, grab the tree
20:51 RealBadAngel  and check water and lava shaders
20:52 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3391#issuecomment-160397741
20:53 RealBadAngel  ive made water shaders with flowing one
20:54 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: make some up-to-date videos
20:54 VanessaE      save him from having to clone+compile :)
20:54 RealBadAngel  none of the vids will give you the feeling
20:54 RealBadAngel  you have to see it on your own
20:54 VanessaE      what's the difference?
20:54 RealBadAngel  i wont be sending HD vids over mobile? ;)
20:55 VanessaE      oh
20:55 RealBadAngel  but joking, this is about game play feel
20:55 RealBadAngel  when you walk to the shore and see waves
20:55 RealBadAngel  you have to play with it
20:56 VanessaE      well you know I've seen your recent water shader up close.  it worked well for me, just needed specular highlighting on the water
20:56 VanessaE      (well that and you hadn't yet, at the time, finished dealing with flowing water)
20:56 RealBadAngel  water shader next step will be reflections
20:56 VanessaE      nah
20:56 VanessaE      dkip yhsy
20:56 VanessaE      er
20:56 VanessaE      skip that
20:56 RealBadAngel  and some other math
20:57 VanessaE      keep the shaders simple.  reflections add too much shader work
20:57 RealBadAngel  atm i do have NICE surface and PERFECT flowing
20:57 RealBadAngel  without animation frames
20:58 RealBadAngel  notice that out of sync blocks water surface does not apply here
20:58 VanessaE      yeah I saw that
20:58 VanessaE      so...you gonna release that code as "final" soon?
20:59 VanessaE      stop working on 10 somewhat-related things all at once and make a damn PR :)
20:59 RealBadAngel  well, BlockMen commented that some parts of the PR "are not necesary"
21:00 RealBadAngel  he obviously doesnt know what he is talking about, dont wanna join irc to let him explain
21:00 RealBadAngel  he is propably blocking the pr just for fun, or whatever
21:00 VanessaE      I doubt that
21:00 RealBadAngel  see github talk
21:01 RealBadAngel  he thinks that forcing filtering is about those pity 16px textures
21:02 VanessaE      no
21:02 VanessaE      it's more about the style of the game
21:02 VanessaE      doesn't much matter if it's 16px really
21:02 RealBadAngel  yes, "player could choose to see pixels"
21:02 VanessaE      it's more that you shouldn't smooth some things but not smooth other things.
21:02 RealBadAngel  Users should be able to decide whether they want see pixels in water (or whatever) texture or not
21:02 VanessaE      something like that needs to be an all-or-nothing setting
21:02 VanessaE      will your effect work without filtering?
21:02 RealBadAngel  thats what he said
21:03 RealBadAngel  dumbass
21:03 RealBadAngel  theres no texture at all
21:03 VanessaE      there's a normal isn't there?
21:03 VanessaE      normalmap*
21:03 RealBadAngel  thats noise
21:03 RealBadAngel  texture is math
21:03 VanessaE      yes, but that adds "texture" i.e. "feel"
21:03 RealBadAngel  no
21:03 RealBadAngel  all is pure math
21:03 VanessaE      there are no normalmaps associated with this anymore?
21:04 VanessaE      or parallax maps, depth maps, etc?
21:04 RealBadAngel  no
21:04 VanessaE      ok that changes things somewhat,.
21:04 VanessaE      BUT
21:04 VanessaE      what does the effect look like without filtering?
21:04 RealBadAngel  theres just noise map, perturbation map rather
21:04 RealBadAngel  which is highly deformed with time
21:04 RealBadAngel  point of filtering is to make it smooth
21:05 VanessaE      so answer my question
21:05 VanessaE      what exactly does the effect look like without filtering?
21:05 RealBadAngel  i could avoid filtering if i choose to use 1024px + perturbation maps
21:06 RealBadAngel  with water pixelated waves effect is gone at distance of 5-10 nodes
21:06 RealBadAngel  lava on the other hand is much worse
21:06 VanessaE      damn it just answer the question
21:06 VanessaE      what.  does.  it.  look.  like?
21:06 RealBadAngel  shitty
21:06 VanessaE      (and don't say "like shit")
21:06 VanessaE      damn it, ninja'd.
21:07 RealBadAngel  i wont alloow the code to be used without filtering
21:07 RealBadAngel  howgh
21:07 VanessaE      you have to if you want it to go in at all
21:07 RealBadAngel  im coding visuals, theres no half way there
21:08 VanessaE      because in all honesty, I would have to block it too.
21:08 RealBadAngel  either it looks as intended or theres no such effect
21:08 RealBadAngel  its not a blocky feeling as you think or used to
21:08 RealBadAngel  its about too small input files
21:09 RealBadAngel  would you really like me to force using 1024px textures?
21:09 VanessaE      no
21:09 RealBadAngel  while i can use 256x plus filters?
21:09 RealBadAngel  effect will be the same
21:09 VanessaE      if it were in my power, I would insist on a setting to selectively enable the filtering on the water separate from the "overall" filtering that's currently offered.
21:10 RealBadAngel  also i could oversample the texture runtime
21:10 RealBadAngel  and all will be crying about performance
21:10 RealBadAngel  think a bit
21:10 RealBadAngel  VanessaE, well, its hows its done...
21:11 VanessaE      "think a bit" "crying about performance"....  meanwhile minetest is so CPU-bound that even my badass GPU doesn't help.
21:11 RealBadAngel  the effects demands the filter enabled ONLY for this very node
21:11 VanessaE      WHY does the effect "demand" it?
21:11 VanessaE      why exactly?
21:11 RealBadAngel  i told you
21:11 VanessaE      well tell me again. :P
21:11 RealBadAngel  to get the quality
21:12 VanessaE      that's not a good enough answer.
21:12 RealBadAngel  its more than enough
21:12 VanessaE      that's a purely subjective response,.
21:12 VanessaE      it needs to be some objective reason.
21:12 RealBadAngel  save ram
21:12 RealBadAngel  is it better?
21:12 VanessaE      forcing filters to be turned on, but without any changes to the code or assets, saves RAM?
21:12 RealBadAngel  256x is smaller than 1024x
21:13 VanessaE      no one is saying you should use a higher-resolution texture.  ever.
21:13 RealBadAngel  ive designed the water shader, i want it to be of quality i designed it
21:13 RealBadAngel  period
21:13 RealBadAngel  i dont wanna some1 to break it and complain it does look shitty
21:13 sapier        great my monorail/carts mod is still working after not fixing anything for a year
21:14 RealBadAngel  this is most advanced shader ive ever made, spent shitload of time to fine tune it and look just awesome
21:15 VanessaE      I k now it does.
21:15 VanessaE      but you HAVE to allow people to turn those filters off,
21:15 RealBadAngel  i wont allow it to be broken
21:15 VanessaE      for example, when I'm using default textures, I never enable filtering
21:16 VanessaE      I don't like the blurry look that goes with it
21:16 VanessaE      but with HDX, absolutely I'll use the filtering, because at that resolution it looks good
21:16 RealBadAngel  this is not about it being blurry
21:16 RealBadAngel  its about accuracy
21:16 VanessaE      others don't use filtering for whatever reasons, maybe it adds CPU load they don't want
21:17 RealBadAngel  hell, get them and try both versions
21:17 RealBadAngel  just set filters disable in mod
21:17 VanessaE      why are you so hell-bent on not giving the user the option?
21:17 RealBadAngel  and see the change
21:18 RealBadAngel  this is not a goddam option
21:18 RealBadAngel  its breaking my code or not
21:18 VanessaE      it is NOT breaking your cxode
21:18 VanessaE      code*
21:18 RealBadAngel  well
21:18 VanessaE      it would just be a different look than you expect.
21:18 RealBadAngel  lets call it my artistic vision
21:18 RealBadAngel  not the code
21:19 VanessaE      that's fine, but
21:19 VanessaE      if it comes to "artistic vision" it immediately gets into "this is mod/game territory"
21:19 RealBadAngel  hrmm hrmmm, its a mod that adds such water? ;)
21:19 VanessaE      the engine is almost never about 'artistic vision' to be honest
21:20 RealBadAngel  the PR itself is about tools to make such shaders possible
21:20 RealBadAngel  what ive done in my mod is my own business
21:20 VanessaE      right but your shaders are themselves in-engine right now.
21:21 RealBadAngel  water and lava are not
21:21 RealBadAngel  and propably never will, theyre just too nice ;)
21:21 VanessaE      ...
21:21 RealBadAngel  "not enough voxelish" ;)
21:21 VanessaE      what's the PR link again?
21:21 RealBadAngel  a sec
21:22 RealBadAngel  #3391
21:22 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3391
21:23 VanessaE      so why then are we even *talking* about the water stuff at all?
21:23 VanessaE      why aren't you targeting something way simpler?
21:23 VanessaE      like some funky cartoon shader or something
21:23 RealBadAngel  first of all, changes were made having some goals in mind
21:24 RealBadAngel  all of them require protocol bump
21:24 RealBadAngel  why should i split them?
21:24 VanessaE      becuase, again, the engine is no place for "artistic vision" to be enforced.
21:24 RealBadAngel  also, if i split it, my target shader wont work as i expect it to work
21:25 VanessaE      make your PR as generic as possible regarding what a mod-provided shader can do
21:25 RealBadAngel  so, why should i have half a solution usable for nothing?
21:25 VanessaE      take all talk of water/lava shaders off to a separate GAME pull request.
21:25 VanessaE      (one which, no doubt, will still be declined)
21:25 RealBadAngel  either modder can do everything with a shader or nothing
21:26 RealBadAngel  this change is way more than just generic
21:26 RealBadAngel  its a fucking freedom to do anything you want to
21:26 VanessaE      that's what generic means in this contex.
21:26 VanessaE      context*
21:27 RealBadAngel  ive let shaders be feed with any data and settings
21:27 VanessaE      no specific thing being enforced, maximum amount of freedom for the modder (within reason of course).
21:27 RealBadAngel  what shader designer will want, he can do
21:27 RealBadAngel  he can write completely new shader now
21:28 VanessaE      that's fine
21:28 RealBadAngel  and put them on client side
21:28 VanessaE      but NOT if your liquid shaders are forced to go with it
21:28 RealBadAngel  and devs hands fff
21:28 RealBadAngel  off
21:28 RealBadAngel  its not forced
21:28 RealBadAngel  PR is about the tools for it only
21:29 RealBadAngel  shader and the mods for it are just an example what can be achieved
21:29 VanessaE      then take all of the talk for that out of the PR
21:29 VanessaE      stop confusing theissue
21:29 RealBadAngel  and i will propably never make a PR with them to minetest_game
21:31 RealBadAngel  youre trying to tell me that folks like blockmen got scared of what it allows? ;)
21:32 VanessaE      I'm trying to say that you're mixing code with sentiment in your PR and it has to go.
21:32 VanessaE      it's no wonder he's blocking you
21:32 VanessaE      (and you know perfectly well I won't budge on this :P )_
21:32 RealBadAngel  what could stop him to make a default minetest_game mod with water shader NOT forcing any filters state?
21:33 RealBadAngel  and why this freedom of his choice should stop mine?
21:33 RealBadAngel  heh?
21:34 RealBadAngel  if youre fighting wiht the sword, you can die by the sword :P
21:38 RealBadAngel  i wont change my opinion, sorry
21:40 hmmmm         I agree with BlockMen
21:41 RealBadAngel  hmmmm, tried the shader with filters enabled and disabled?
21:41 hmmmm         if it's necessary to have texture filtering with the use of a certain shader, perhaps that shader can specify options such as "needs bi-linear filtering" or similar so when it does run, it automatically turns on bilinear filtering
21:41 hmmmm         (of course, it should be disable-able)
21:42 RealBadAngel  if the shaders needs it, it forces it (only for this very node)
21:42 RealBadAngel  and this is up to nodedef - a mod that introduces that shader
21:43 RealBadAngel  this "option" is not designed to be user choice
21:43 hmmmm         erm, unless I am misunderstanding something here, the thing BlockMen is standing against is changing a default option regardless of whether or not a node needs it
21:43 RealBadAngel  the force_filtering options is designed to affect only single node
21:43 RealBadAngel  when its badly needed
21:44 RealBadAngel  overall settings are not affected
21:45 RealBadAngel  thats why i moved so much about filtering code around here
21:46 RealBadAngel  this is simply very specific case
21:47 RealBadAngel  i, as the shader designer, do know that the shader will need it, so i assure that it will be used no matter what
21:47 RealBadAngel  about other nodes i do not care at this point
21:48 hmmmm         alright I see what it is you're doing
21:48 hmmmm         I added a comment on the PR concerning this matter.
21:49 VanessaE      hmmmm: your comment sums up my thoughts on it.
21:49 RealBadAngel  hmmm, as i mentioned eariler, i could avoid that, but at the cost of much more larger input files
21:49 hmmmm         does it?  i didn't read the whole chat above
21:49 RealBadAngel  i do really think thats tradeoff is fair
21:50 hmmmm         ?? there doesn't need to be any tradeoff
21:50 hmmmm         I don't understand the issue here
21:50 RealBadAngel  filtering provides smoothing of input data
21:50 RealBadAngel  do note, thats not the texture
21:51 hmmmm         I just want there to be another setting on the client so that the end user always has the final say in how their nodes look
21:51 RealBadAngel  same quality with water shader im getting a) with 256x perturbance map + force filtering b) 1024x data without filters at all
21:52 hmmmm         you know how there are 4 levels of antialiasing, DEP, and so on?
21:52 hmmmm         "force off", "off", "on", "force on"
21:52 RealBadAngel  doesnt apply there...
21:52 hmmmm         explain to me *why* this doesn't apply here
21:52 hmmmm         because maybe I'm missing some fundamental detail
21:52 RealBadAngel  im doing the texture on the fly
21:52 RealBadAngel  with math
21:52 hmmmm         yes..?
21:54 RealBadAngel  how you could apply antyaliasing, and all those to something that is made each frame? as continous surface per whole seen scene?
21:54 RealBadAngel  you cant
21:54 RealBadAngel  its not a damn texture at all
21:54 VanessaE      I want to see side-by-side screenshots of the shader - with and without your forced filters.
21:55 VanessaE      I don't care if it doesn't give the whole picture.  it'll be enough.
21:55 hmmmm         what?? I just brought up antialiasing because that's a common case where the graphics driver gives two sets of "on" and "off" states
21:55 hmmmm         as another example of where the user gets the final say in how something is rendered
21:55 RealBadAngel  hmmmm, you are making same wrong assumption as others
21:56 RealBadAngel  we are not taling about the texures for damn sake
21:56 hmmmm         I get that it's not a texture and it's generated on the fly
21:56 hmmmm         but what if the user doesn't want trilinear filtering for that generated "thing"?
21:56 sapier        are you guys talking about filters that may or may not be supported by gpu or by something done by cpu anyway?
21:56 RealBadAngel  i need to smooth input files
21:56 hmmmm         what is the input file then?
21:56 RealBadAngel  the source for math im using
21:56 hmmmm         is that a texture?
21:57 RealBadAngel  you can open it in gimp, yes
21:57 hmmmm         ok...
21:57 RealBadAngel  wanna try? :)
21:57 hmmmm         no I don't really want to try.
21:57 RealBadAngel  its looking something close to normal map
21:57 RealBadAngel  its a perturbation map
21:57 hmmmm         but I don't get why it *has* to be enabled
21:58 sapier        we're argueing about shaders but didn't get simple signs done in more then 2 years ... quite dissapointing
21:58 RealBadAngel  otherwise waves wont be smooth
21:58 hmmmm         sapier, I'm not actually working on anything at the moment :)
21:58 RealBadAngel  and you will see pixels floating all around
21:58 hmmmm         RealBadAngel, maybe users don't want them to be smooth..
21:58 hmmmm         well I made my stance known
21:58 hmmmm         I'm outta here
21:58 RealBadAngel  hmmmm, dare to try it?
21:58 hmmmm         I really don't give a flying crap about minetest
21:58 RealBadAngel  you can easily judge it by yourself
21:59 hmmmm         just want other devs to make good design decisions
21:59 RealBadAngel  theres a PR to allow things, and theres a mod that makes use of it
21:59 RealBadAngel  you can try it on and off
21:59 sapier        hmmmm: you'll find at least one user wanting almost everything ;-)
22:00 RealBadAngel  PR itself doesnt force anything
22:00 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3391#issuecomment-160397741
22:00 RealBadAngel  anyway, trying to explain animation effect is plain dumb
22:01 RealBadAngel  please all of you try it on your own
22:01 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/RealBadAngel/water_shaders/blob/master/init.lua#L15
22:01 RealBadAngel  at the line above you can disable forcing the filter
22:01 hmmmm         besides, I wouldn't even be able to try it on my own
22:02 sapier        does "Allow mods to define which shader to use for a node" really mean a node specifys which shader to use and not the setting done in setting?
22:02 hmmmm         despite my powerful GTX660, minetest would run at like 5 FPS
22:02 VanessaE      sapier: it means the mod can supply the shader code itself.
22:02 sapier        really BAD
22:02 sapier        because this means a mod will cause some devices to crash due to lack of shader support
22:02 hmmmm         RealBadAngel is mostly concerned about flashy graphical effects than optimizing what's already there
22:03 sapier        or incompatible shaders provided
22:03 RealBadAngel  hmmmm, idk what have you done to your distro, but my most cheap i3, 4gb ram, gtx 550ti, runs mostly at 60fps
22:03 hmmmm         you can clearly see most people want minetest to run well instead, but user feedback be damned, he'll do what he wants to do
22:03 RealBadAngel  sapier, not really
22:03 sapier        not even talking about the security implications if a mod is able to download arbitrary code to cpu
22:03 sapier        gpu
22:03 RealBadAngel  this allows to define also default shader used
22:03 RealBadAngel  and this can be defined very lite
22:03 sapier        can they be defined as "none" too?
22:04 RealBadAngel  later on we can code fallback to that lite one in case of compilation failed (or lack of support for it)
22:04 sapier        where to find your current code rba?
22:04 sapier        for what I remember shaders don't work at all on android so lite wouldn't be light enough
22:05 RealBadAngel  sapier, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3391#issuecomment-160397741
22:05 VanessaE      sapier: shaders DO work on android but in limited ways
22:05 RealBadAngel  for android we will need totally different shaders
22:05 sapier        well those minetest provides don't work
22:05 RealBadAngel  nothing fancy propably
22:05 VanessaE      sapier: they used to.  waving leaves for example.
22:06 VanessaE      I've seen such even on my old android 2.3 device (that old piece of crap Xelio tab)
22:06 RealBadAngel  yes, geometry ones will work propably
22:06 sapier        and do correct me if I'm wrong shaders usually are quite gpu specific?
22:06 VanessaE      not sure if that's still the case though./
22:06 RealBadAngel  android devices are limited in materials
22:06 VanessaE      sapier: they're not *supposed* to be GPU-specific
22:06 RealBadAngel  so bumpmapping etc wont be possible without rude hacks
22:06 VanessaE      rather, AMD-or-nVidia-specific
22:07 sapier        well what about mali adreno .... ?
22:07 VanessaE      mail adrino?
22:07 VanessaE      mali*
22:07 RealBadAngel  btw, thats all about how mobiles are compared to boxes
22:07 RealBadAngel  they cant do even shaders lol
22:07 sapier        there's way more then those two gpu manufactures
22:08 RealBadAngel  and try to convince me once again that PC's are dying rotfl
22:08 VanessaE      sapier: oh, well I wasn't trying to single-out (dual-out?) those two
22:08 Calinou       there's Intel…
22:08 VanessaE      shaders are language-specific, either GLSL or HLSL
22:08 sapier        RealBadAngel: obviously they can do shader just different to what your pc's do
22:08 VanessaE      and afaik if it's GLSL and simple enough, it should work everywhere
22:08 RealBadAngel  sapier, most of the effects are impossible
22:08 sapier        thanks Calinou almost forgot the most important gpu supplier
22:09 RealBadAngel  those units are just too weak
22:09 hmmmm         dunno I'm gonna be honest here
22:09 Calinou       you don't need to enable them on mobile, just on desktop
22:09 hmmmm         most of RBA's advanced effects look cheesy imho
22:09 sapier        high end mobile devices have more power then my desktop pc!
22:09 Calinou       I'd like bloom/HDR :p
22:10 Calinou       rather than the water shader which IMO brings nothing
22:10 hmmmm         yeah agreed
22:10 VanessaE      I wouldn't mind a basic bloom filter
22:10 VanessaE      or whatever it is that causes light to "blur" around the edges of stuff
22:10 sapier        well my pc is 7 years old atm so it's kind of unfair to compare :-)
22:10 Fixer         PCs are not dying, it is just matured market, same will be for mobile in some future, calm down the hype
22:10 Calinou       if water actually brought reflection/refraction it'd be useful
22:10 Calinou       VanessaE, lens flare is also possible, and cheaper
22:10 hmmmm         there's more to shaders than "make pixely nodes look blockier with tesselation/bumpmapping"
22:10 Calinou       would work mostly for torches only
22:10 RealBadAngel  hold your horses guys
22:10 RealBadAngel  do you have multiple rendering passes?
22:10 RealBadAngel  no?
22:11 RealBadAngel  so no bloom :P
22:11 sapier        Fixer: that's a matter of believe but imho PC's will get something like vinyl players  in near future
22:11 RealBadAngel  atm i can code just geometry things
22:11 Calinou       desktop PCs have never been so good…
22:11 VanessaE      what's wrong with vinyl? ;)
22:12 RealBadAngel  lens flare are also not possible Calinou
22:12 sapier        nothing VanessaE just almost everyone uses CD's or in between many ppl use streaming
22:12 RealBadAngel  we dont have rendering passes ;)
22:12 Calinou       RealBadAngel, they're just sprites that are aligned to player view
22:12 Calinou       Wolfenstein 3D had sprites that aligned to player view
22:12 Calinou       how is this not possible?
22:12 VanessaE      sapier: true
22:12 RealBadAngel  aw, cmon, do sprites with shaders?
22:12 Fixer         sapier, PC is needed for business and gamers, and that is big (but you don't need to upgrate that often anymore) :}
22:13 Calinou       lens flares don't need shaders
22:13 RealBadAngel  but can be done easliy with post process ones
22:13 sapier        PC ain't even for business it's for sw-engeneers
22:13 VanessaE      Calinou:  maybe but better to let the GPU handle that
22:13 VanessaE      minetest already stresses the CPU enough as it is
22:13 Fixer         leave the CPU alone :}
22:13 est31         PC is needed by anybody who wants to do serious communication with machines
22:14 Fixer         to do serious work
22:14 RealBadAngel  so, who actually tried the water with filters on and off?
22:14 sapier        I don't think any designer or office user will use a pc in near future they'll switch to some sort of terminal ... back to the past ;-)
22:14 est31         or serious work
22:14 Fixer         not just laying in bed and whatever
22:14 Calinou       also, laptops are real PCs
22:14 est31         well yeah probably many offices will have these remote desktop thingies
22:14 VanessaE      sapier: better that, than trying to do serious work on a tab
22:14 Calinou       lots of people can work just fine with laptops, but they can't with tablets
22:14 Calinou       Surface Pro is too small for lots of people :)
22:14 est31         yeah
22:14 Fixer         Calinou, just mobile one's and craaaaaaaaapy
22:14 Calinou       and also too expensive
22:15 RealBadAngel  atm, all of you are just waiting for animation screenies or commenting the code
22:15 est31         tbh, I can't really use mobile only either
22:15 RealBadAngel  without even trying it out
22:15 Fixer         also 1366*768
22:15 Calinou       Fixer, my laptop is 1920×1080 :p
22:15 * est31       needs a physical mouse
22:15 Calinou       any decent laptop is
22:15 est31         touchpads are too slow
22:15 Calinou       I would have went for 2560×1440 if possible
22:15 Fixer         Calinou, walk in a store -> 95% is 1366*768 shit
22:15 Fixer         sorry, i mean 95% of notebooks are shit
22:16 Fixer         but that's offtopic, sorry
22:16 Calinou       >implying anyone should buy laptops from a physical store
22:16 VanessaE      Fixer: not entirely offtopic
22:16 * Fixer       is silent
22:16 VanessaE      notebooks have good hardware, but like any mobile device, they suffer on the GPU end.
22:16 est31         Calinou, sometimes when I buy sth from a physical store its not much more expensive than stuff bought from the internet
22:17 Calinou       yeah, mobile GPUs are still very slow even on high-end laptops :(
22:17 Fixer         est31, of course it is
22:17 Calinou       my GTX 960M is much slower than my GTX 570
22:17 est31         and I am willing to pay 10% or so so that I have service without having to go to dhl for every little shit
22:17 Calinou       …a graphics card from late 2010
22:17 est31         sending packages costs money too
22:17 Fixer         est31, depends if the internet store is legal or in grey areas :}
22:17 Calinou       est31, in France you probably have more service on the Internet than in physical stores… for instance, "retractation" which allows you to get a refund in 14 days without having to justify why
22:17 Calinou       this is possible only when buying over the Internet
22:18 est31         yeah in germany too nobody is forced to do this
22:18 est31         but many shops do it
22:18 est31         its not such a bad deal for them
22:18 est31         after all, they get free money
22:18 est31         (for a time)
22:19 RealBadAngel  anybody trying it or shall i close that pull, and stop complaining why i did something?
22:19 est31         so instead of having to go to the bank and lending it, they have the 14 day refunds
22:19 * VanessaE    fumes
22:19 est31         VanessaE, too much offtopic?
22:19 * est31       sorry
22:19 VanessaE      est31: too much RealBadAngel being butthurt :)
22:19 Fixer         now that tablet sales are decelerating, people will moan about "post-tablet era" and invent a new mantra
22:20 RealBadAngel  you have 15 minutes, if i dont any feedback i will just delete that code
22:20 RealBadAngel  *get
22:20 sapier        actually I believe future will be something like a docking station where you put your phone in when you're home and if you need more cpu power then your phone has you can buy it from cloud ... I don't like this kind of futuer but imho it's gonna happen
22:20 Fixer         main goal is to force you buying and buying or they will be out of business obviously
22:20 Calinou       things don't change as fast as one would hope, sapier
22:20 est31         yeah, something like sapier said will happen
22:21 est31         I already now have a dismantled desktop pc at home
22:21 est31         and sometimes I do a git bisect or stuff and I really could use some cpu build power
22:21 Calinou       Canonical did make a concept where you could plug your phone to a desktop screen, and use it like a PC
22:21 Fixer         "unix" terminal days? what a joke :}
22:21 Calinou       this would be valid if phones were actually powerful… but they're not :)
22:21 RealBadAngel  clearly, i dont have to wait, deleting the shader PRs now
22:21 Fixer         history repeats itself
22:21 * VanessaE    clones them all, just in case.
22:22 Calinou       PC won't die because for some people, i7-5960X and 64 GB of RAM is not enough :>
22:22 Fixer         tablet is not enough
22:22 Fixer         and notebook too
22:22 est31         tablet is little toy for kids
22:23 est31         I've thought I buy a tablet for taking uni notes, but there still is too much lag, it cant be compared to real paper
22:23 sapier        Calinou: what's an i7-5960x compared to x-hundred-thousand cores in cloud?
22:23 est31         I even see that lag in their fscking commercials, even if they do their best to hide it
22:23 Calinou       something that's not bandwidth-constrained
22:23 Calinou       it'll take a long time before everyone has 4G and/or optic fiber
22:23 Fixer         it is just matured market, people don't want to upgrade anymore and practically everyone has a computer or whatever
22:24 est31         but well, as tablets are toys, they are the best hardware to run minetest on
22:24 Calinou       Fixer, my dad has 2009 iMac and Pentium D PC
22:24 Calinou       I concur :p
22:24 Calinou       slow as hell, but still uses it
22:24 Fixer         that developers tried hard to eat a lot of memory and disk space... but well -ck them
22:24 sapier        a tablet is a screen, imho it could replace my second monitor I usually use for reading docs without any problem if it wasn't hat ugly to get the data there
22:24 Fixer         Calinou, that is not even old
22:24 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: stop being so damned butthurt and COMPROMISE
22:24 Fixer         Calinou, any >2000 with at least 2Gb is usable
22:24 RealBadAngel  i am being HURT because nobody tries to SEE what ive done
22:25 Calinou       not really if you want to use recent Windows, or even anything more than Lubuntu
22:25 Fixer         Calinou, it is not like in 80s and 90s
22:25 Calinou       if I were to build a desktop PC for my parents I'd put 8 GB of RAM in, and a Core i3
22:25 RealBadAngel  reading the code you can stick in the ass when you havet seen it in action
22:25 Calinou       + SSD
22:25 Fixer         RealBadAngel, any compiled windows binaries?
22:25 Calinou       Celeron/HDD/4 GB is sure possible, but won't feel nearly as good
22:25 Fixer         Calinou, i already have that :} need to buy SSD though
22:25 sapier        a lightweight tablet in a4 or letter format with induction loading support ... nice to have, sadly this ain't produced by anyone by now
22:25 RealBadAngel  all of you are not playing, not trying the pulls
22:25 Calinou       which is why a few people prefer tablets nowadays…
22:25 RealBadAngel  just commenting whites :P
22:26 Fixer         RealBadAngel, i play, but git version
22:26 RealBadAngel  im talking bout devs
22:26 Fixer         i have not setup my building env
22:26 Calinou       I play CTF daily or so :p
22:26 RealBadAngel  all of them are just github readers
22:26 Fixer         i have XP in VM, need to install compilers and stuff
22:27 sapier        ok rba I've built your new_shaders version where to see the new shaders?
22:27 RealBadAngel  ive spent months to make water shaders perfect, and nobody is even want to try them out
22:27 est31         one has to download the shaders as well I think
22:27 RealBadAngel  and i shouldnt be in that case pissed off?
22:27 * est31       tries the new mapgen pr then I try yours RBA
22:27 sapier        << RealBadAngel wanting to try tell me how! ;-)
22:28 est31         I've looked at the lava shaders in the past, but your water stuff was WIP so I didn't check it out
22:28 RealBadAngel  sapier, ive pasted you link with HOW-TO two times today already
22:29 RealBadAngel  and you all keep commenting why i forced filtering on made possible
22:29 RealBadAngel  damn, take a look why
22:29 Calinou       why do we need water/lava shaders? aren't animated textures enough?
22:29 Calinou       unless you bring reflection/refraction to the table, I'm not convinced
22:30 RealBadAngel  Calinou, idk, because some would want NICE water?
22:30 RealBadAngel  talking bout reflections....
22:30 RealBadAngel  that will be also not possible without that PR
22:30 Calinou       I find the water texture and color pretty decent
22:30 Calinou       the post effect is nice now, although fog would be even better
22:30 sapier        intersting ... but not really like water
22:30 RealBadAngel  and special texures
22:31 sapier        reminds me more about fog ... very very dense fog
22:31 RealBadAngel  color is exactly the same as for the original texture
22:31 RealBadAngel  in fact color is used here instead of reflection texture
22:31 RealBadAngel  so atm its fixed
22:32 RealBadAngel  anyway, it wont be possible at all
22:33 RealBadAngel  i mean with changes to the shaders and later on rendering system
22:33 sapier        the water shader would be great if used as cloud shader
22:33 RealBadAngel  same as relief mapping wasnt possible without tangent space
22:34 RealBadAngel  so highly hated change, especially by hmmmm
22:34 VanessaE      no one hates it
22:34 VanessaE      they hate your intent to force the client to filter it.
22:35 VanessaE      where it == the proposed liquid shaders.
22:35 VanessaE      that's all.
22:35 RealBadAngel  i had same fights when i was forceing tangent space vertices
22:35 sapier        we like it just ignoring user settings isn't what we like ... no matter how good the result for some systems may be
22:35 RealBadAngel  because you all have saw no usage for it
22:35 RealBadAngel  now you can compare it
22:35 RealBadAngel  so, who tried?
22:36 RealBadAngel  nobody?
22:36 sapier        no it's not about it's usage it's about a setting called "no shaders/filtering" no means no and not "no but..."
22:36 RealBadAngel  this is not a setting
22:36 sapier        I just tried your new_shaders branch according to the howto you wrote ... thought that was clear from my comments
22:36 RealBadAngel  ok
22:37 RealBadAngel  have you saw water with and without filters?
22:37 sapier        don't know
22:37 RealBadAngel  edit the mod
22:37 sapier        yes filtering is disabled
22:37 RealBadAngel  and change filter to false
22:37 sapier        ok
22:38 RealBadAngel  menu options do not apply for that node
22:38 VanessaE      sapier:  take a video of the result please :)
22:38 sapier        hmm
22:38 RealBadAngel  leave menu filtering disabled, and change only mod setting
22:38 sapier        imho the water does even look better without filtering ... *sorry*
22:38 RealBadAngel  awwwww
22:39 RealBadAngel  take a closer look
22:39 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: I told you.
22:39 sapier        I do, I like the pixel style way better then the filtered one which doesn't look like water ... pixels look almost like little waves
22:40 RealBadAngel  pixels chasing each other, of different size you dare to call nicer than smooth waves?!?
22:40 sapier        yes because the "smooth" water doesn't look like water to me ... it's tooo smooth
22:40 RealBadAngel  ok i give up
22:40 RealBadAngel  i must be blind, crazy or something
22:41 sapier        if you have a look at the sea you you usually see small breaking waves
22:41 sapier        the smoothed version does look more like crawling fog
22:41 sapier        of course that's not an objective interpretation
22:41 RealBadAngel  the size of it is to be decided
22:42 RealBadAngel  please do note that effective repetitions of made "texture" are not of a node size
22:42 RealBadAngel  its more like 8x8
22:42 Fixer         post the screenshots!
22:43 RealBadAngel  http://i.imgur.com/m37D035.png
22:44 RealBadAngel  ofc you want see flow of the water on the screenie
22:45 Fixer         RealBadAngel, what are those triangles?
22:45 Fixer         on right side
22:45 RealBadAngel  sides of liquid nodes
22:46 RealBadAngel  same as before, thats water drawtype designed propably by c55
22:46 RealBadAngel  whole the water on the right side of the screen is flowing one
22:46 RealBadAngel  to the left you have a sea
22:47 RealBadAngel  with shaders, it is blending quite nicely
22:47 sapier        RealBadAngel: still this shader doesn't look like water to me :-/ ... and does reset after some seconds/minutes causing a jump
22:47 VanessaE      sapier: isn't that a known bug in shaders in general?
22:48 sapier        I don't know I usually don't use shaders
22:48 RealBadAngel  sapier, that jump is some animationTimer glitch, to be observed everywhere
22:48 RealBadAngel  havent found the reason for it yet
22:48 sapier        Just wanted to  mention as noone could fix it if it was related to the shader
22:48 sapier        http://imgur.com/a/fBdpZ not sure if imgur didn't compress the images too much
22:49 RealBadAngel  i need to fix it, because many things depend on that timer
22:49 RealBadAngel  idk why it jumps
22:49 VanessaE      sapier: wait, which one's not filtered?
22:49 sapier        lower ones seem to be unfiltered
22:49 VanessaE      wait I think I see it
22:49 VanessaE      if THAT is what un-filtered looks like?  to hell with filters.
22:49 sapier        but you can see the pixels way more if it's not compressed
22:50 VanessaE      how does the animation compare?
22:50 RealBadAngel  better see lava unfiltered: http://i.imgur.com/Q1zDYLr.png
22:50 sapier        I didn't notice any difference except of pixels on the edges
22:50 RealBadAngel  http://i.imgur.com/FKANK9x.png
22:50 RealBadAngel  and compare
22:50 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: I see nothing particularly wrong with it unfiltered.  reminds me of low-quality jpeg :P
22:51 VanessaE      it obviously looks way better with filtering
22:51 sapier        if I had to choose what to fix pixels or strange waves I'd decide to want the waves fixed
22:51 RealBadAngel  here effect is more visible, because it is using 16px as a color map too
22:52 sapier        those just aren't water waves
22:52 RealBadAngel  but those lava shaders pictures are outdated
22:52 sapier        looks like what see in timelapse videos of the upper side of clouds
22:53 RealBadAngel  this was before i started to use proper heightmaps and relief mapping for lava
22:53 RealBadAngel  http://i.imgur.com/q3dArah.png
22:53 sapier        where to get that shader?
22:53 RealBadAngel  hold on
22:54 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/RealBadAngel/lava_surface_shaders
22:54 RealBadAngel  thats a shader to be put into /client/shaders
22:54 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/RealBadAngel/shaded_lava
22:54 RealBadAngel  and thats a mod using it
22:55 RealBadAngel  please do note that in case of lava shader theres no fallback to default lava as it is with water one
22:56 RealBadAngel  so just test it with shaders only
22:56 sapier        where to get default.LIGHT_MAX from?
22:56 RealBadAngel  its defined in default?
22:57 sapier        guess minimal ain't enough?
22:57 RealBadAngel  this mod is meant to override default lava def
22:57 RealBadAngel  so most of it is just a copy from there
22:58 sapier        just say "yes"
23:00 sapier        doesn't look like your screenshot
23:02 RealBadAngel  can yoo make one?
23:03 sapier        http://imgur.com/btxu4fK quite static doesn't look like the shader works at all
23:04 RealBadAngel  check shader folder
23:04 sapier        theres two files in lava_surface_shaders
23:06 RealBadAngel  no extra folder?
23:06 sapier        there was but it didn't work with subfolder lava_surface_shaders too
23:06 RealBadAngel  there should be /client/shaders/lava_surface_shader/ those files
23:06 sapier        yes the files are in this folder
23:07 RealBadAngel  you said "lava_surface_shaders"
23:07 RealBadAngel  it should be "lava_surface_shader"
23:07 RealBadAngel  as defined in mod
23:07 sapier        ohhhh
23:07 sapier        s
23:09 RealBadAngel  any better?
23:10 sapier        way better
23:10 * sofar       & jetlag
23:10 sapier        but still way of what I see on your screenshot
23:11 RealBadAngel  please make the screenie again
23:11 sapier        I see node limits for example and  flow is way less detailed
23:11 RealBadAngel  flow is not fixed in this shader yet
23:12 RealBadAngel  ive focused there rather on flat surface
23:12 RealBadAngel  well, rather on makin the flat one not such flat ;)
23:12 sapier        I'm talking about the wave flow not flowing lava
23:13 sapier        http://imgur.com/SiFwZg4
23:14 VanessaE      borders between nodes.
23:14 RealBadAngel  i may be having different code there, this repo was not really meant to be public yet
23:14 sapier        yes I didn't see those borders on water shaders
23:15 RealBadAngel  this one is quite different
23:15 RealBadAngel  with lava one i am using actual texures and the heightmaps
23:16 sapier        without the borders I'd quite like it for standing lava ... for flowing it's strange ;-)
23:16 sapier        I don't see any height differences
23:16 RealBadAngel  hold on a minute, i will get the right shader code
23:17 sapier        you should really fix the timer issue it's making me crazy ;-)
23:18 sapier        imho it's a blocker for shaders like this one
23:19 sapier        it's unacceptable whole image is reset every now and then ;-)
23:20 RealBadAngel  ok, ive got the code
23:20 RealBadAngel  http://pastie.org/10648149
23:21 RealBadAngel  replace whole fragment shader with it
23:21 RealBadAngel  make a flat lava surface and fly around lookin at it
23:23 RealBadAngel  need to fine tune it, but its already nice
23:23 RealBadAngel  and yes, i definitely need to hunt down that timer thing
23:24 RealBadAngel  its propably been wrong since the very begining
23:26 sapier        I still have borders
23:27 RealBadAngel  yeah, but you shall be able to see heights
23:27 RealBadAngel  i havent polished that shader because of PR hanging there
23:27 RealBadAngel  without the PR this shader cant work at all
23:28 sapier        nope, but i disabled waving does this have any effect on it?
23:28 RealBadAngel  no it doesnt wave
23:29 RealBadAngel  with detailed surfaces waving is kinda obsolete
23:29 RealBadAngel  at least imho
23:29 RealBadAngel  ah, and it does use old relief mapping
23:30 RealBadAngel  ive updated the code for it recently
23:30 sapier        ok for this shader the effect with filtering is better then without
23:31 RealBadAngel  much more visible degradation
23:31 sapier        yet imho this is quite subjective as said for the water shader I'd prefere the non filtered version
23:31 RealBadAngel  because in this case three textures are used
23:32 sapier        I don't think so imho it's because of water flow is way more fine then what I'd expect from lava
23:32 RealBadAngel  do note thats up to mod to decide on it
23:32 sapier        so the pixels make lava look unnatural while on watter the look likesome substructure
23:33 RealBadAngel  in water shader ive implemented math based on normals/binormals
23:33 RealBadAngel  its not done in lava at all
23:33 RealBadAngel  the lava shader is just hanging out there not finished
23:34 RealBadAngel  just no point to develop it any furher when engine doesnt allow it
23:35 sapier        still imho the lava shader looks way better then the water shader atm
23:35 RealBadAngel  sapier, thats a bit of taste, dont you think so?
23:36 RealBadAngel  i mean those pixelated structures
23:36 sapier        sorry I know that's not what you wanna hear
23:36 RealBadAngel  im highly after it being smooth
23:36 sapier        those maybe but I'd suggest asking ppl about the water shader
23:36 sapier        for me this one would be a reason to disable shaders
23:36 sapier        it's just strange
23:36 kaadmy_mobile what's the shader do?
23:36 RealBadAngel  imagine reflection on this surface
23:37 RealBadAngel  and that day will come
23:37 sapier        makes water look like cloud surface
23:37 kaadmy_mobile water reflections like in terasology?
23:37 RealBadAngel  like in ANY other modern game
23:37 sapier        doesn't matter RealBadAngel water ain't that smooth
23:37 kaadmy_mobile then i like it until i can prove otherwise ;)
23:37 RealBadAngel  including minecraft and terasology and build a world or name any other voxel game
23:38 kaadmy_mobile xonotic and assaultcube has it
23:38 sapier        http://weknowyourdreams.com/image.php?pic=/images/sea/sea-03.jpg
23:38 sapier        http://weknowyourdreams.com/image.php?pic=/images/sea/sea-08.jpg
23:38 kaadmy_mobile even assaultcube has it...
23:38 sapier        there aren't round waves
23:38 RealBadAngel  sapier, the water shader code is based on one guys work
23:38 sapier        I know RealBadAngel and you're really doing great work
23:39 RealBadAngel  do you really wanna see how will the shader look like complere?
23:39 RealBadAngel  *complete?
23:39 sapier        it'd be great yes
23:39 kaadmy_mobile any screenshots of the shader in action?
23:39 RealBadAngel  theres just reflection missing
23:39 RealBadAngel  other code is the same (except for some my own changes)
23:39 kaadmy_mobile imo caustics would also be big graphical improvement
23:40 VanessaE      caustics?
23:40 sapier        ok then I'l wait for it, I'm just hoping you're not walking the wrong path spending too much time on it RealBadAngel it'd make me quite sad
23:40 kaadmy_mobile look at tesseract's trailer
23:40 RealBadAngel  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkdBGe8tfNw
23:41 RealBadAngel  look at this final effect
23:42 RealBadAngel  and try to say its not worth havin it
23:42 VanessaE      can't say I expect MT to have shaders THAT good any time soon.
23:43 sapier        hard to tell he's moving around quite quickly ;) oso you can't relly tell
23:43 sapier        but for what I see it impressive
23:43 sapier        and a long way to go
23:43 kaadmy_mobile love that effect ;)
23:46 RealBadAngel  i just need further engine changes
23:46 kaadmy_mobile go to around 3:50 in this vid http://youtube.com/watch?v=3fOpHRrOBJQ
23:46 RealBadAngel  whats most funny, i do have reflection code for irrlicht rdy, found some sources that do that
23:47 RealBadAngel  sapier, https://github.com/RealBadAngel/terrainTest
23:48 RealBadAngel  this app have user defined shader materials, post processing and rendering phases
23:48 sapier        nice to know but it's late today I'll check it another day
23:48 RealBadAngel  it could be quite nice to get such changes
23:49 sapier        conclusion, lava shader is (except the borders) and of course the time bug amost production ready ... water (sad to tell) requires some additional work
23:49 RealBadAngel  water is here just as a proof of concept
23:50 RealBadAngel  main subject is a PR that allows all those things
23:50 sapier        considering this it's quite good true
23:50 sapier        but doesn't change the fact that it's not subject to a node to change the users graphics settings
23:50 RealBadAngel  i dont demand water to be a part of minetest_game
23:51 RealBadAngel  but games with HD gfx, may want it as is
23:51 sapier        still if you do sett graphics quality to "low" you expect it too look bad thus why should some node change this on it's own
23:52 sapier        if ppl enable shaders because they make the game look so much better we will set it to default by some time
23:52 RealBadAngel  atm im pretty confused
23:53 sapier        well there are a lot of unconnected ends in minetest graphics
23:53 kaadmy_mobile imo the parallax mapping really doesn't fit in MT
23:53 sapier        none of it as single part do make sense
23:53 sapier        e.g. perfect shaders make lot of other parts look even worse
23:53 RealBadAngel  kaadmy_mobile, parallax mapping is kinda obsolete now
23:54 RealBadAngel  we are using relief mapping
23:54 kaadmy_mobile i know, i don't use it
23:54 sapier        you can't push one part of the game to ultra high quality while everything else looks like prototype compared to it
23:54 RealBadAngel  http://i.imgur.com/HePeu7h.png
23:55 RealBadAngel  (this is what im working on atm)
23:55 sapier        this is a good example .... it's a nice effect really ... but I wouldn't wanna play that way for long
23:55 kaadmy_mobile that's what i mean it looks bad
23:56 RealBadAngel  thats a matter of taste
23:56 sapier        exactly this is quite special
23:56 kaadmy_mobile the relief/parallax/offset mapping doesn't work too well with low resolution textures
23:56 RealBadAngel  this is example of built in versy simple effect
23:56 sapier        I guess there are ppl out there relly loving that style
23:56 RealBadAngel  and a single normal map
23:56 RealBadAngel  for everything
23:57 RealBadAngel  so it means this effect is very cheap
23:57 kaadmy_mobile normal mapping would look good if there were real time lights
23:57 RealBadAngel  we dont have them yet
23:58 RealBadAngel  and normal mapping is not only about lights
23:58 RealBadAngel  so the relief
23:58 sapier        why are we always discussing the big things instead of fixing the small ones really doing harm ? :-)
23:58 RealBadAngel  its about to make things not flat
23:58 RealBadAngel  sapier, please consider that my changes are continous mostly
23:59 RealBadAngel  i cant make new things with previous commits
23:59 sapier        Minetest reminds me of a big prototype ... we always have cool new features in there but noone ever wants do do the polishing ;-)
23:59 RealBadAngel  all the time im developing the same thing, the LOOK
23:59 kaadmy_mobile yep
23:59 RealBadAngel  sapier, i do the polishing, to the look
23:59 RealBadAngel  this is what i can do the best