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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-07-24

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 est31 Also, I agree to remove the renderer option, its more contraproductive than productive i think
00:02 paramat push complete
00:12 est31 RealBadAngel, if you code something for minimap, can you perhaps also add it to the hud, so that it can be gamified, e.g. you will have to craft a map item, which shows you the minimap?
00:13 est31 also there is further speedup potential for getPixel, the requests to the cache are done for every single pixel
00:13 est31 those can be expensive
00:13 est31 better to cache it for all heights somehow
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02:26 yh1986 @est31, Minetest-0.4.12.11-android you can see sun or moon and stars ?
03:08 VanessaE can someone explain how this could happen?  http://pastebin.com/XPWSyhEz
03:08 VanessaE relevant line in the farming mod:  https://github.com/VanessaE/dreambuilder_g​ame/blob/master/mods/farming/api.lua#L204
03:09 VanessaE (it an unmodified copy of the upstream minetest_game version)
03:09 VanessaE it's*
03:10 VanessaE the function it fails to call is here: https://github.com/VanessaE/dreambuilder_g​ame/blob/master/mods/farming/api.lua#L113
03:16 cornernote does it happen every time, or just once ?
03:17 VanessaE in this case, it happened several times in a row
03:18 VanessaE I checked the online copy, compared it with the minetest_game code, it's the same.  I don't understand how such an error is possible :-/
03:21 cornernote does it happen when onplace() is called?  (i assume it doesnt happen on startup)
03:22 cornernote i see the reason, on the phone
03:22 VanessaE it appears so
03:23 VanessaE it crashes even when I just hoe some ground
03:23 cornernote https://github.com/VanessaE/dreambuilder_gam​e/blob/master/mods/farming_plus/init.lua#L1
03:23 * init looks at channel
03:23 cornernote looks like this is loaded after farming
03:23 VanessaE hm, that could do it
03:29 VanessaE looks like farming API changed or something
03:40 VanessaE hm, no..
03:52 VanessaE I see what happened.  old version of farming_plus snuck in.
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10:05 nore pushing that in 5 minutes: https://github.com/Ekdohibs/minetest/commi​t/5dc9df8bbe3a3936489e1a9a66406ae0bead41c1
10:07 VanessaE Ekdohibs??
10:07 nore I just learned that my previous name was a trademark :/
10:07 nore so I changed it
10:07 Calinou that doesn't make it invalid
10:07 VanessaE seriously? O_o
10:08 nore yeah, but I don't want any problems :)
10:08 nore and that one isn't used anywhere
10:08 VanessaE I dunno, in a google search for "novatux", your github is the first result.
10:08 nore hm, not for me
10:08 VanessaE and the second..and third.... :P
10:08 Calinou thank Google's search bubble
10:08 VanessaE fourth is some linux distro
10:09 VanessaE or tool, idk what
10:09 nore well, it is a trademark selling linux computers I think
10:09 VanessaE eh
10:09 VanessaE well better safe than sorry I guess.
10:09 nore but anyway, I'm sure not to have any problems if I change it :)
10:10 nore (and I carefully checked that google didn't give any results this time)
10:10 Calinou ask all those guys who use pony names as usernames :P
10:10 jin_xi yes its a really weird nick :)
10:10 nore (and yes, that name is stupid, I used a password generator to get it)
10:10 nore :D
10:10 VanessaE that's a hell of a way to come up with a handle :"D
10:10 VanessaE "D
10:10 VanessaE ...
10:11 nore anyway, pushing it :)
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10:37 TBC_x my github nick is way weirder
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10:50 kilbith RealBadAngel: how do you like that ? https://lut.im/u4nXhXCi/r7yWwGZq
10:50 kilbith then we can fill the right column for screen and mouse settings
10:51 VanessaE shaders option needs to allow for bumpmapping-only mode also
10:51 VanessaE off/low/mid/high is too vague
10:51 kilbith say to Valve
10:51 kilbith say that*
10:51 VanessaE we ain't valve :)
10:52 kilbith also you feel forced to react on literally everything ?
10:52 kilbith i asked RBA
10:52 VanessaE if it's gonna affect how I use the project, or for people who use my stuff, well yeah.  I'll react.
10:53 kilbith you react on everything for the sake of saying something
10:53 VanessaE *sigh*
10:53 kilbith and it's often hollowing relevant
10:55 VanessaE do whatever you want then
10:55 kilbith yeah, i don't need your input, really
10:55 * VanessaE debates deleting the HDX normalmaps repository
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11:05 TBC_x separate menu screens/formspecs would be better, then you can use tabs to expand settings
11:06 TBC_x IE you would have tabs in a submenu, not in the root formspec
11:06 TBC_x will see what RBA had in mind though
11:12 kilbith what do you mean by splitting menu screens/formspecs ?
11:14 kilbith you mean move the options in a separate formspec ?
11:14 TBC_x practically everything, that don't belong together
11:14 TBC_x more traditional menu screen
11:14 TBC_x for example I kinda like the one in AoE 2
11:15 TBC_x to be more precise
11:16 TBC_x The sub-screens could look like today's main 'menu'
11:16 TBC_x but the root menu would have buttons
11:16 TBC_x but I don't know whether there was a discussion about this before
11:16 kilbith i see, more organized in sub-places
11:16 TBC_x yes
11:18 TBC_x then there will be more space for more options
11:27 TBC_x +1 if we transform formspecs into mapblock representation
11:28 TBC_x but that is very, very, very experimental task
11:28 TBC_x IE to manage inventory, you have to manipulate nodes
11:33 TBC_x though, this is mission impossible... but anyone can prove otherwise, if they have all the time in world
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12:14 celeron55 what kind of policy should we have for using the minetest logo? i mean, the license is clear, but do people care for the trademark-ish concerns at all?
12:14 celeron55 someone is asking about using the logo as the logo of a let's play youtube channel
12:15 VanessaE I use the logo in a couple of textures here and there, because it just "fits"; I don't see a problem using it in a youtube video so long as it's not trying to misrepresent minetest or something.
12:15 celeron55 the concern from our standpoint probably is that it might make the channel weirdly official looking and would misrepresent this community
12:16 celeron55 no not video, but the channel header
12:16 VanessaE ohh
12:16 VanessaE that's a lot more grey
12:16 VanessaE in that case I think I'd suggest some basic courtesy
12:17 VanessaE a disclaimer or something, or changes to the logo to differentiate it from the real one
12:18 VanessaE going hard-ass on someone using the logo is probably not good for minetest's image :)
12:18 celeron55 i guess i can answer something like "you can, but you have to avoid misrepresenting yourself to be a developer of minetest or some other kind of official source"
12:19 VanessaE yeah, seems fair
12:19 celeron55 which is common sense, but i guess sometimes it has to be written down
12:20 nrzkt +1
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12:39 dzho well, trademark law is not something you can just make up
12:39 dzho I mean, you *can* but it isn't going to mean much.
12:44 celeron55 well for all practical purposes, Minetest is an unregistered trademark owned by me
12:44 celeron55 how effective that actually is depends on the country
12:45 dzho sure
12:47 celeron55 it might be interesting to ask some FOSS lawyer about whether it might actually be enforceable at all 8)
12:47 celeron55 my bet would go to "nope", but at least all the good people follow it nevertheless
12:49 celeron55 and it's not even worth taking into court because it's a bad name to begin with, and that's why nobody would put any money on it anyway so none of this will ever be tested
12:49 dzho it could go the other way
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13:01 TBC_x The logo IMO should be modified in such a way that anyone can tell the differences between original, for example replacing the tree with a mushroom
13:02 TBC_x only in a case, where the logo does not represent original Minetest
13:04 TBC_x I think this covers some of the licenses?
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13:23 TenPlus1 hi folks
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13:24 nrzkt hi
13:30 TenPlus1 how's the latest build fairing with the random crashes >
13:38 RealBadAngel celeron55, our code is free, but our logo shouldnt be imho
13:39 RealBadAngel we are known already as best possible free alternative to mc
13:39 TenPlus1 which is great if the minetest binary was stable
13:39 RealBadAngel it is made stable from time to time
13:40 TenPlus1 0.4.12 was the last release and it's not vey stable
13:40 RealBadAngel next one is coming soon
13:40 TenPlus1 glad to hear...  has the memory leak problem been looked into ?
13:41 RealBadAngel which one?
13:41 TenPlus1 I ask because Xanadu server is currently unplayable since it's crashing all the time due to memory leaks and std::bad_alloc errors
13:42 TenPlus1 I know you fixed the one with the minimap.. what others are there ?
13:48 TenPlus1 sorry if I seem miffy...  minetest is an amazing game and having a popular server like Xanadu running like a wounded goat doesnt help with promotion... lol
13:49 TBC_x Xanadu is not the only server in the universe
13:50 TenPlus1 I know... am talking from a personal view...
13:51 TenPlus1 we (xanadu) had 45 players at one time which was great, but now it's quiet since it keeps crashing and players get frustrated
13:54 TBC_x crashing servers are IMHO owner responsibilities
13:54 TenPlus1 tbc, usually I would agree but it's the minetest binary causing the crashes, not the mods it's running... those are running fine...
13:54 RealBadAngel and ours
13:55 TenPlus1 and the serer has 4gb of memory of which only 600mb is used on minetest
13:55 RealBadAngel TenPlus1, we need feedback with logs
13:55 TenPlus1 I've been going over every mod time and time again incase I missed something...
13:55 RealBadAngel we have to know what is the reason in order to fix it
13:56 TenPlus1 RealBadAngel, it's the same errors every time... closed due to server error... stg::bad_alloc or segfaulting
13:56 TenPlus1 nothing specific to tie it down to one thing
13:56 RealBadAngel is there a chance you can run a debug build?
13:57 TenPlus1 the launchpad site I get the daily builds from doesnt seem to have a dgb build
13:57 TenPlus1 and the server owner isnt tech savvy
13:58 TBC_x why can't you get him here?
13:58 nrzkt TenPlus1: using stable builds not master can prevent crash due to non declared stable builds.
13:58 nrzkt if you want stable you take stable. It's like tell, i'm using debian sid and some things are not working properly, it's not normal.
13:58 TenPlus1 nrzkt, I used stable builds of 0.4.12 and it still crashed due to std::bad_alloc errors...  I was hoping each daily would fix previous problems
13:59 nrzkt ok
13:59 TenPlus1 and going back to 0.4.10/11 is out since most of the mods have been changed to suit 0.4.12 now
14:01 TenPlus1 am using Lubuntu 14.04 LTS which is rock solid as a base, and yeah the server may be an old pentium D but works amazingly well bringing testament to how well Minetest runs on old hardware
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14:16 * VanessaE senses the pending arrival of Zeno`
14:23 * nrzkt sent VanessaE
14:23 VanessaE heh
14:24 VanessaE well guess he's not gonna sign on :P
14:27 RealBadAngel TenPlus1, without backtrace we cant help
14:27 RealBadAngel it could be anything, including storm on the Sun
14:27 RealBadAngel we just dont know
14:28 TenPlus1 am searching for a debug version to put on server
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15:07 TenPlus1 bye folks
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16:48 est31 I didn't find novatux as registered trademark, neither french nor us, http://bases-marques.inpi.fr/
16:48 est31 but yea I understand, better avoid trouble
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16:56 Calinou lots of people have names that are also trademarks, without any issues to be honest :P
16:59 TBC_x Is network/connection.cpp documented somewhere?
17:00 est31 network/connection.h?
17:00 TBC_x oh, missed that single comment block
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17:27 TBC_x CONTROLTYPE_DISCO Is for actual game data I expect
17:28 TBC_x what purporse serves sender_peer_id?
17:28 est31 DISCO could be short for DISCONNECT
17:28 TBC_x oh
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17:36 TBC_x what is field sender_peer_id for anyway?
17:40 est31 dunno
17:41 est31 it might be possible to even fake the peer id as sender, and get admin privileges, im not sure
17:41 est31 has to be investigated, nrzkt has said something along tha
17:41 est31 t
17:41 TBC_x that's why am I asking
17:42 nrzkt peer_id is bad, we should use a cookie_id which is uniq at each session, but this is another problem
17:42 TBC_x what does the _id resolve anyway?
17:42 TBC_x i mean peer_id
17:44 TBC_x do you think that cookie_id couldn't be faked too?
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17:45 nrzkt in fact peer_id is used everywhere, and if i'm right it's sent to other clients in some packets (but i could be wrong). Also peer_id is a min(available_id) and can be used to spoof current connected players packet
17:47 est31 can't we just take the ip address for comparison?
17:47 TBC_x IP:port
17:47 est31 e.g. check whether the incoming packet's peer id matches with the ip
17:47 est31 and port too
17:47 nrzkt TBC_x solution is better, it's not the best but it's better
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17:49 TBC_x The only thing that can be abused can be AFAIK chat
17:49 est31 well yeah
17:49 est31 /grant player all
17:49 nrzkt how can this be spoofed ?
17:49 est31 its the easiest I guess
17:49 nrzkt we don't check the incoming player name ?
17:50 TBC_x Is that a obstacle?
17:50 nrzkt we don't need to have incoming player name, only a peer_id
17:50 est31 that can be faked
17:50 est31 nrzkt, the problem is that the peer id can be faked
17:50 est31 and as you said is guessable
17:50 nrzkt and we send to other players peer_id + messages, in MT it's name + peer_id because we don't have ID mappers clients side, and i hope we can have this later
17:51 nrzkt when i will rewrite sessions before the major release we will change this u16 peer_ids by better things
17:51 nrzkt a unique session cookie eg a UUID is good
17:51 est31 good you say it
17:52 est31 because I have changed the chat packet in a pr
17:52 est31 in the utf-8 pr
17:52 nrzkt oh
17:52 nrzkt this is a good idea
17:52 nrzkt did you change ids ?
17:52 est31 no, because I didn't think of, and we dont have clientside ids
17:53 nrzkt it could be good to have a id solver for that :)
17:53 est31 but before we make ids, we have to close this vulnerability, if it indeed exists
17:53 nrzkt i think it could be good to have this thing added to client and server core for future release (not this release merge window is too light)
17:54 est31 agree
17:54 est31 we'll have to do it later on
17:54 est31 I propose we raise to protocol 26 now then
17:54 nrzkt why ?
17:55 nrzkt we have 25 for this 0.4.12 as we said
17:55 est31 no
17:55 est31 because there is a change from RBA which needs a raise
17:55 nrzkt we will not change packets since release, no ?
17:55 est31 I had the chat change planned for 26 too
17:55 nrzkt protocol v25 is experimental because it was not release
17:55 est31 but if we want ids instead of names, then we need a raise
17:56 nrzkt yes, but we will do it after the current release
17:56 est31 yes
17:56 nrzkt before launch the 0.5.0 of 0.4.13
17:56 est31 nrzkt, nobody forces us to 25 for 0.4.12.
17:56 nrzkt i have some design ideas but there is a little difficult thing with name resolution using ids
17:56 est31 we have to study what goes wrong if somebody hasn't updated
17:57 est31 if only small things go wrong, it can be changed
17:57 nrzkt we give stable release, clients should use stable release. dev releases are not our problem it's a risk owned by compilers
17:57 est31 if you can't log in anymore or chat is failing, we haveto do a new protocol
17:57 est31 no
17:57 est31 nrzkt, this way we piss off people who install nightlies
17:57 est31 thats not the way we should do it
17:58 nrzkt ok, install firefox and complain about crashes.
17:58 nrzkt firefox nightly
17:58 est31 nrzkt, crashes are involuntary
17:58 nrzkt and compat problems and new features problems neither
17:58 est31 and yes, please complain, we need the complaint info to fix bugs
17:58 TBC_x any client ID sent by client is wrong
17:58 nrzkt firefox ensure compat with stable release not with the nightly cycle itself
17:59 est31 nrzkt, they dont change basic features, they always keep backwards compat
17:59 est31 nobody just changes how http works in firefox nightlies
17:59 est31 also its not comparable
17:59 nrzkt i talk about stable release compat yes
18:00 est31 because firefox is just a client
18:00 est31 and we have client and server
18:00 nrzkt yes
18:00 nrzkt servers can have more features than client, it's normal
18:00 est31 what the fuck does this have to do with the discussion
18:00 TBC_x nobody just changes how http works in firefox nightlies because http does not uniquely identify client
18:00 nrzkt but if a client has an incomplete protocol v25 implentation because user uses nightly without updating it it's not our problem
18:01 est31 TBC_x, we discuss something else here, whether to raise protocol version for RBA's change
18:01 TBC_x oh that
18:01 est31 perhaps I havent communicated this yet
18:01 nrzkt you want to merge it before next release ?
18:01 est31 its already merged, but not activated
18:01 est31 because it was intended to be activated with chat
18:02 est31 as I said
18:02 est31 both for protocol 26
18:02 nrzkt okay, then after the current release cycle, right ?
18:02 est31 no
18:02 est31 before 0.4.13, with that
18:02 est31 chat*
18:02 TBC_x We need a mechanism to separate protocol versions apart
18:02 est31 but that has been the intention, now we have chat after the current release
18:02 nrzkt then we are in 0.4.13-dev and protocol v25 isn't present in 0.4.12, right ?
18:02 est31 now the intention is to have chat after 0.4.13
18:03 TBC_x and that's not uni-protocol
18:03 est31 nrzkt, agreed
18:03 nrzkt then protocol v25 is the 0.4.13 version :)
18:03 est31 but one raise per release isnt what we should to
18:03 est31 do
18:03 nrzkt we can update it if you want
18:03 nrzkt but please don't use backward compat for inner release cycle dev
18:03 est31 instead we should raise every time if we change something basic to the protocol
18:03 est31 small changes arent needed
18:04 nrzkt if we change 4 packets in the release and one was modified Two times before a release, don't give compat to first version of the packet.
18:04 est31 nrzkt, agreed, after we have released, we can drop backward compat for something added and removed
18:04 est31 agreed
18:04 nrzkt compat is for stable releases not inner nightly
18:04 est31 thats ok
18:04 nrzkt perfect :)
18:05 TBC_x protocol_id is the field containing protocol version?
18:05 TBC_x or minetest_protocol?
18:05 est31 nrzkt, we do give compat for the first version of the packet, but drop it after the release.
18:05 est31 this allows the switch to be smooth
18:06 TBC_x ehm... how is the protocol negotiated?
18:06 TBC_x fields defined in connection.cpp or in payload?
18:06 est31 in init packets
18:06 est31 in payloads
18:07 est31 (from a connection.cpp perspective)
18:07 est31 I think the packet is called TOSERVER_INIT
18:07 est31 there we send maximum and minimum client protocol versions
18:08 TBC_x theoretically, we can bump protocol_id and create new protocol when the old becomes obsolete
18:08 est31 then the server answers with TOCLIENT_HELLO i think, with the actual protocol
18:08 TBC_x to keep backward compatibility we can listen for old protocol_id
18:08 est31 TBC_x, currently we do it otherwise
18:10 TBC_x the only issue i see is that all compatible protocol versions are kept in a single file
18:11 TBC_x and is hard and confusing to use older version
18:12 TBC_x the transport layer could use some stripping
18:12 TBC_x connection.h
18:12 TBC_x imho
18:14 TBC_x all the protocol version specific things could sit behind an vtable
18:16 TBC_x btw, anyone done any benchmarking on priority channels?
18:19 est31 whats a vtable?
18:19 TBC_x virtual table, you get this on virtual classes
18:20 TBC_x in virtual methods
18:20 est31 TBC_x, so you want to copy the entire file only if one method changes?
18:20 TBC_x that's one way
18:20 TBC_x or you can subclass
18:20 est31 a subclass chain?
18:21 est31 its not nice, I think the whole protocol should be in one file, this makes studying it easier
18:21 TBC_x then keep the classes in a single file
18:21 est31 imagine if a packet A was changed in protocol 10, the answer packet in protocol 25.
18:22 est31 then you have them at two completely different parts of the file
18:22 TBC_x I expected that old protocol versions are supposed to be cast into concrete
18:22 est31 and in order to find out whether the packet checked
18:22 est31 whether the packet changed*
18:23 TBC_x besides, unit tests should cover that
18:23 est31 you will have to scan the entire list of changes
18:23 est31 no
18:23 est31 unit tests are the last resort, before human testing
18:23 est31 they shouldnt be an aid to help you understand the protocol
18:23 est31 they should be "oops, sorry"
18:24 TBC_x well... system tests or whatever is the jargon
18:25 est31 ok, so I push a commit which raises the protocol to 26 now, ok nrzkt?
18:25 nrzkt ok
18:32 est31 pushed
18:32 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/c35747bc7d8d8c6c3e21b18a40fed84cd119dd7d
18:51 TBC_x hmm... minetest_game in 0.4.12-stabe has bug in crafting formspec
18:52 est31 ?
18:52 TBC_x when you grab crafting output, there is no check whether you're holding anything
18:54 TBC_x with the cursor
18:54 est31 yes
18:54 est31 but you get both back
18:55 est31 sort of a bug yes
19:06 nrzkt est31, can you review #2952 it's a trivial merge
19:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2952 -- Remove some old dead code. Fix some Clang warnings in SRP by nerzhul
19:06 nrzkt (i noticed a tab issue, i fix it soon, just review the other parts)
19:07 est31 nrzkt, can you make a pr to csrp too?
19:07 est31 https://github.com/est31/csrp-gmp
19:07 nrzkt okay, will do it
19:08 nrzkt done
19:10 est31 I dont see it
19:13 nrzkt oops don't validate the change, done now
19:14 nrzkt okay tab fixed. I switched from eclipse to qtcreator, it's better for c++11 needs :p with eclipse it's a pure pain
19:16 nrzkt and it's faster, cmake is properly included :p
19:31 nrzkt will merge #2952 in ~20mins
19:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2952 -- Remove some old dead code. Fix some Clang warnings in SRP by nerzhul
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19:44 paramat nore sfan5 any comments on game#588 ?
19:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/588 -- Default: Thicker snow nodebox by paramat
19:44 sfan5 I'll look at it later
19:45 paramat cool
19:49 paramat aha i will fix underwater mushrooms very soon =/
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19:52 kilbith est31, sfan5 : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2953
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20:37 paramat pushing soon game#590
20:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/590 -- Flowers: Keep mushrooms above water level by paramat
20:54 paramat now pushing 590 to game
20:57 paramat push complete
21:05 sfan5 paramat: i agree with C1ffisme the thick snow on trees looks a little unrealistic
21:06 paramat well, pines can get very thick snow on them, and it looks gorgeous
21:07 kilbith http://homesinestes.com/wp-content/u​ploads/2009/04/loaded-pine-tree.jpg
21:08 paramat heh i was about to search for some images
21:08 kilbith you're right on this, paramat
21:09 paramat i'm going for that 'scandinavian forest' feel
21:12 est31 paramat, can you approve this: https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​288302a1f0db8c2c48d8b3a24db9889aaaabcd51
21:12 * paramat looks
21:12 est31 the problem here is that dedicated_server_loop in server.cpp has the opposite meaning
21:16 paramat oh man, this is beyond me, and i'm super tired, best to ask another dev, sorry =)
21:16 est31 :(
21:16 est31 sfan5, can you look?
21:16 est31 np paramat
21:18 sfan5 est31: imo thats a trivial change, you can push that
21:18 paramat anyway yes, an image search for 'snowy pines' shows they can be loaded up even more than my commit. thick snow looks good, the current reminds me too much of depressingly thin english snow =( i love snow
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21:20 est31 its 25 cm snow in real life. but otoh, pines are larger I think than in real life
21:20 est31 the main problem I think is that the snow doesnt cover the sides
21:21 est31 this is a problem of us being a voxel game :)
21:21 est31 sfan5, ok pushed
21:21 est31 thx
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