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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-06-02

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:10 paramat now pushing to mtgame
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00:16 paramat complete
00:17 VanessaE mmmmh
00:17 VanessaE stop giving me reasons to rebase :)
00:17 est31 lol
00:18 est31 db bases on really really old mtgame, no?
00:18 VanessaE not anymore
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00:19 VanessaE my last resync was a bit over a month ago
00:24 paramat :)
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03:12 ShadowNinja est31: That usit test is actually broken to begin with. Both "a,b" and "b,a" are valid return values for minetest.privs_to_string{a=true, b=true}.  Lua leaves the iteration order undefined.  In fact when I updated the Lua version to 5.2 that usit test broke because the orderind wasn't consistent anymore.
03:13 ShadowNinja s/usit/unit/g
03:13 ShadowNinja VanessaE: That issue wasn't platform-specific.  The hyphen was missing from the clients allowed-chars list.
03:14 VanessaE ShadowNinja: odd, because it actually caused the win client to hang outright
03:14 VanessaE but it worked in linux
03:14 ShadowNinja In any case, this is all server-side, the client doesn't know anything about any files.
03:14 ShadowNinja (in this case)
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04:49 est31 in 5 mins: https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​b8a8be9c86cf6249d7c1be1c01d27deb02bcb58c
04:49 est31 *pushing* (in 5 mins)
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07:57 hmmmm we need a meeting
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07:58 hmmmm a big long, long meeting where everybody is here, so we can talk about the status of things, future plans, and decide on which items take priority
07:58 hmmmm but alas, timezones
07:58 hmmmm and everybody's busy
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08:01 VanessaE hmmmm: and those of us who ARE here can't help. :-/
08:01 hmmmm too bad we don't have the luxury of holding conferences or summits like other big open source projects
08:02 VanessaE yeah
08:02 * est31 is there
08:02 hmmmm i dunno, it seems once again i've been pushed into this managerial role
08:02 hmmmm because nobody else is consistently around
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08:03 kahrl I could probably attend a meeting this or next week
08:03 hmmmm maybe this level of activity is appropriate for what minetest is
08:03 hmmmm and it's not a problem
08:03 rubenwardy A TestCon would be awesome.
08:04 hmmmm you were going to say MineCon, but that's already taken, isn't it
08:04 hmmmm I was thinking for a minute that maybe, just maybe, we could arrange a meetup at minecon whenever that is
08:04 rubenwardy Yeah
08:04 hmmmm but then I have to somehow arrange for travel
08:04 VanessaE can you imagine the hate??
08:05 hmmmm and this isn't some big corporation that can just eat airfare/hotel/rental car/food costs
08:05 rubenwardy It's very true. We're all quite spread out.
08:05 rubenwardy Virtual TestCon?
08:05 hmmmm lol
08:05 rubenwardy All meet up in game?
08:05 hmmmm time zone issue
08:05 est31 hehe
08:05 rubenwardy oh yeah
08:05 hmmmm that's the primary problem
08:05 paramat 'ConTest'
08:06 hmmmm half the developers are GMT +5 or +6, half the developers are GMT+12, half the developers are GMT+23
08:06 hmmmm that's three halves
08:06 rubenwardy lol
08:06 hmmmm erm, UTC i meant
08:06 kahrl aren't there lots of german ones too, that would GMT+1 or GMT+2
08:06 hmmmm yeah
08:07 Calinou make a monthly meeting at a timely date
08:07 hmmmm perhaps
08:07 hmmmm see, I'm not so sure if this is the correct thing to do
08:07 Calinou if they are too common, people won't join
08:07 VanessaE roughly 8pm CET seems to be the highest activity point in my servers, if that helps any
08:07 hmmmm people work on minetest because there are no commitments
08:07 rubenwardy It would be good to see a map of where people are, developer wise.
08:08 hmmmm they can just work on it when they want to and that's it
08:08 Calinou 8pm CET is a good time for online meeting
08:08 VanessaE (i.e. the most random people available to meet somewhere)
08:08 Calinou we probably should make a specific channel for it?
08:08 hmmmm if we start pushing developers to make commitments, that could turn people off to the whole idea
08:08 VanessaE problem is that leaves out most US-based people unless it's done on a weekend
08:09 hmmmm adopting business practices in general would make development so much more efficient but violates the entire principle of what minetest is
08:09 hmmmm so are people satisfied with the current amount of development activity?
08:10 rubenwardy If it were a business / studio, I would think that it was going too slow.
08:10 VanessaE the amount of activity is fine by me, hmmmm.  it's the parts of the project at which that activity is directed that may be in question.
08:10 est31 the question is: how to rise
08:10 rubenwardy But it's not, and we're volunteer based, so it's the right amount
08:10 paramat yeah, people don't have much time, so i don't expect a high activity
08:10 hmmmm hmm
08:11 hmmmm it's just that every time I hear somebody complain about something that I've been wanting to get fixed for a long time, it sorta hurts
08:11 Calinou game needs a quite a bit of fixes and improvements :P
08:11 hmmmm i want that badly too, you know!
08:11 hmmmm yes
08:11 hmmmm first off all the damn bugs
08:12 hmmmm then it needs an infinite amount of polish on everything
08:12 hmmmm I tried to make what I generally work on as polished as possible
08:12 rubenwardy 8pm is a good time to get Polish patches
08:13 hmmmm alright then
08:13 hmmmm 8pm CET
08:13 kahrl that was a pun, I think :P
08:14 VanessaE where is RBA when we need him :P
08:14 hmmmm wait a minute
08:15 hmmmm alright, 10 AM EST
08:15 rubenwardy Yeah, it was a pun. XD
08:15 hmmmm I think we can do this
08:15 hmmmm well at least I can
08:15 VanessaE 10am EST?  where'd you figure that from?
08:15 * hmmmm scratches head
08:15 rubenwardy 10 AM EST is better for me than 8pm CET, but I'm not a core dev
08:15 hmmmm CET is UTC +1
08:15 VanessaE 8pm CET would be 2pm EDT I think
08:15 hmmmm EST is -5
08:16 VanessaE we're in EDT now :)
08:16 hmmmm so the difference is 6
08:16 hmmmm oh
08:16 hmmmm so -4?
08:16 VanessaE I think
08:16 rubenwardy 10am EST is 3pm CET
08:16 hmmmm 8 pm CET - 5 == 3
08:16 VanessaE yep
08:16 VanessaE it is
08:16 hmmmm whoops
08:16 hmmmm i added instead of subtracted
08:16 VanessaE EDT = UTC-4
08:16 hmmmm 3pm is very doable
08:17 hmmmm when do you want to have these planning meetings/summits/whatevers
08:17 hmmmm not right away, we need time to get the word out or whatever
08:17 kahrl I don't ever attempt to convert timezones in my head, it's just too error prone
08:18 VanessaE kahrl: I looked it up :P
08:18 VanessaE hmmmm:  twice month on the weekends initially, maybe?
08:18 VanessaE drop that to once a month as things get ironed out
08:18 hmmmm maybe once a month
08:18 hmmmm make it seem exclusive
08:18 hmmmm a surprising amount can get ironed out just by sitting down you know
08:19 VanessaE yep
08:19 kahrl once a month sounds fine to me
08:19 paramat monthly seems good
08:19 VanessaE the irony of that statement is that "just talking" has been said more than once to be a waste of time.  I think we know better though :P
08:20 hmmmm it's all a balancing act
08:20 hmmmm even i say that "less talk, more code" but we definitely need to regroup and synchronize
08:20 VanessaE yes.
08:20 hmmmm there are major bugs that apparently nobody is assigned to
08:21 hmmmm there are new features floating around but we don't have any ETAs on
08:21 hmmmm we have no timelines
08:21 hmmmm there should probably be a 0.4.13 release soon but who knows when that'll be
08:21 hmmmm ahgh
08:22 VanessaE *head explodes*
08:22 hmmmm if only we could enslave people for 5 days per week
08:22 hmmmm all this crap would get done so fast
08:22 kahrl to be most efficient, the meeting should have a clear agenda that is known to all attendants at least a day before (ideally earlier)
08:23 kahrl so that everyone can read about the issues that will be discussed
08:23 hmmmm i have a rough idea
08:23 hmmmm i'll write an outline
08:23 hmmmm soo yeah
08:23 hmmmm monthly status and synchronization meetings
08:23 hmmmm weekly pull request grooming meetings
08:23 est31 yesyesyes
08:23 hmmmm any other meetings?
08:24 VanessaE I think those alone are enough
08:24 est31 yea
08:24 Calinou https://etherpad.net/
08:24 Calinou https://ethercalc.org/
08:24 hmmmm all this "planning to plan" stuff is so corporate
08:24 VanessaE anything else I could suggest could just as easily be addressed in one of those two categories
08:24 Calinou if you need tools for planning, use those
08:24 hmmmm i would rather be coding right now
08:25 hmmmm it's 4:30 am and I'm awake talking about minetest meetings
08:25 hmmmm lolol
08:25 hmmmm later, I need to go to bed right now
08:25 VanessaE nooooooo
08:26 hmmmm i'm gonna be really tired for work tomorrow
08:26 hmmmm and i already wake up an hour late
08:26 VanessaE btw
08:26 VanessaE this is another fault we keep running into
08:27 VanessaE :)
08:27 VanessaE I mean the only-ever-on-late issue, could be theoretically addressed by meetings with defined times
08:28 VanessaE (but that doesn't help much if not everyone can meet then)
08:29 * paramat pets the issues *purr*
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08:36 VanessaE my turn to fade away too.
08:36 VanessaE night.
08:37 * VanessaE pets her cat, since the issues have rough edges :P
08:48 est31 Ideas for: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2751
08:48 est31 ?
08:48 est31 API design is soo hard.
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08:49 est31 esp. finding an API which is modular but still easy to use
08:49 est31 and fast
08:49 est31 and maintainable
08:50 est31 and without too much complexity
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08:58 est31 ah thats why
08:58 est31 lol
08:59 est31 first I thought, why does this code do res = some_function() \n if (res) blabla
08:59 est31 but now I understand
08:59 est31 if you do if (res= some_function()) blabla, it might be shorter, but people may mistake
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09:59 est31 can ppl have a look at https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2751
10:00 Megaf_ Hi all
10:00 Megaf_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/2697#issuecomment-107903174
10:01 Megaf_ #2697
10:01 Megaf_ Mouse seems laggy in 0.4.12 (and 0.4.11) on OSX #2697
10:02 est31 I can't fix it because I cant reproduce
10:02 est31 what about submitting a PR
10:02 est31 and getting people with macs to test it
10:02 est31 if they say its ok, it can be merged
10:03 Megaf_ Im still testing the issue but I have no idea on how to fix it
10:05 est31 no problem, even triaging is helping
10:05 Megaf_ est31: problem is fps_max
10:05 Megaf_ instead of limiting the view range, it limits everything
10:06 Calinou if we disable fps_max on OS X, people will complain about overheating
10:06 Calinou and low battery life
10:06 Megaf_ if I set fps_max to 40, game becomes unplayable
10:07 Megaf_ Calinou: so we need to fix fps_max
10:07 Megaf_ to make it not limit the camera movement
10:09 Megaf_ AFAIK fps_max worked limiting the viewing range
10:12 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2094
10:31 rubenwardy est31, code changed
10:34 est31 rubenwardy, best to have it cached.
10:38 rubenwardy No where else does
10:39 est31 its a map lookup for nothing
10:39 est31 and that is expensive
10:39 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minet​est/blob/master/src/hud.cpp#L344
10:40 est31 yea, current code is bad
10:40 rubenwardy Adding a caching system is beyond the scope of this commit
10:40 rubenwardy unless
10:40 est31 cache it with static float hud_scaling = g_settings->getFloat("hud_scaling");
10:40 rubenwardy static s32 scaling = ...
10:40 rubenwardy inb4
10:40 rubenwardy :(
10:41 est31 in the longer term we should switch to an enum based approach
10:42 est31 I have a PR for that, but people dont like it
10:42 est31 for good reasons
10:42 rubenwardy Can you change hud_scaling in the main menu?
10:42 est31 (technical details)
10:42 rubenwardy Caching it would mean you'd have to restart the game.
10:43 est31 yes
10:44 rubenwardy code updated
10:44 est31 thats why I made the PR the first place
10:45 est31 but it should be more separate, and generic
11:08 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2501
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11:57 est31 pushing in 5 mins: https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​ba3ff5ef39d768da4a0511d22a220b9aafa3d3f6
12:04 est31 pushed
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16:40 est31 man this auth.cpp needs refactoring
16:40 est31 esp. overloading is making stuff hard
16:40 est31 if you have to count the arguments, you know you did sth wrong in the design
16:40 est31 also, no camelCase
16:41 est31 but thats the smaller issue
16:43 hmmmm by the way, do people actually like camelCase?
16:44 est31 its faster for the reading, same additional steps to do for the writing
16:44 est31 same amount
16:45 rubenwardy I use it for functions, and underscores for locals
16:45 est31 on my keyboard its even faster
16:45 est31 but minetest isn't very "unified" in this matter
16:46 est31 e.g. the lua api has l_do_this_and_that
16:47 est31 meh, coding style is important, but shouldn't become too important
16:47 hmmmm it's only important if it creates a barrier to writing the code
16:48 hmmmm or others reading it
16:48 rubenwardy Isn't being super picky making a barrier to writing code, though?
16:50 hmmmm here's something i wouldn't permit:  https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mine​test/blob/f0f29f7dc6b1a44424ed75e222​6fd800b2b43d18/src/minimap.cpp#L267
16:50 hmmmm a lot of est's code is not conformant with the official style, but at least i'd permit it because it's still easily readable
16:51 rubenwardy Wow
16:51 rubenwardy Indentation is important like that
16:52 hmmmm also here's another example of something that isn't quite a dealbreaker, but I frown very much upon it:  https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mine​test/blob/f0f29f7dc6b1a44424ed75e222​6fd800b2b43d18/src/minimap.cpp#L94
16:52 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/com​mit/d7f15aae3b72975156b4989d219985149612fd86​#diff-f20c82d93887e9a0f4d4eeb66cc7eaa7R242
16:52 hmmmm people who change their own code style mid-function
16:53 hmmmm now note that this code here is not final
16:53 hmmmm I'm just using it as an example of what would be acceptable or not acceptable
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16:53 hmmmm yeah I know you fixed it
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16:53 hmmmm sorry, that was NOT meant to be a rag on your minimap
16:53 RealBadAngel np :)
16:54 hmmmm I don't have any examples off-hand of blatantly wrong indentation
16:54 RealBadAngel sandboxes are often badly formatted, no matter what
16:54 hmmmm oh, actually I do, there's that one game that has possibly the messiest code imaginable that I pasted here
16:55 hmmmm if only I can remember the name of it
16:55 RealBadAngel i do have another flower
16:56 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/b​lob/master/src/mapblock_mesh.cpp#L1237
16:56 RealBadAngel why the heck whole if is not commented out?
16:57 kahrl is it actually possible that m_mesh is NULL there?
17:00 RealBadAngel well, idk. maybe with all nodes made of air?
17:01 kahrl I don't see anything that would drop it other than the destructor
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17:04 rubenwardy celeron55: https://gist.github.com/rube​nwardy/4619a74d168f022697b3
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17:08 RealBadAngel karhl, thats true, only destructor can drop it
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17:31 Krock updated #2744 "Enable server when not building client …"
17:31 est31 just wondering
17:31 est31 Zeno has encouraged that PR, now he left
17:32 est31 and the commit message is still wrong.
17:32 est31 err sorry
17:32 est31 its only the PR title
17:33 est31 now better
17:33 Krock does it matter? finally, the commit counts
17:33 est31 no doesnt
17:33 est31 just thought it would be the same as the commit message
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17:51 est31 what bout this: https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​8f37af0d412bca645a33f57b57b14470ac5349a3
17:52 est31 for master
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18:03 kahrl est31, I don't quite get it
18:03 est31 ?
18:03 kahrl since the external protocol is most likely implemented in an external program, with no connection to the minetest engine, how can it use the minetest API?
18:04 est31 irc_commands uses luasocket
18:06 kahrl hmm. that seems like a pretty specific usecase though
18:07 kahrl why does one input passwords via irc anyway?
18:07 est31 in order to log in via irc
18:07 est31 so that you can grant sb privs
18:08 kahrl I see
18:09 kahrl perhaps a more secure alternative would be: 1. connect to minetest server via a special init packet, 2. upon successful SRP login minetest server returns something like an oauth token, 3. you can use this token from irc to log in as that user
18:10 kahrl of course this token would be single-use, limited lifetime, to prevent replay attacks
18:11 est31 yea just very inconvenient
18:11 kahrl meh, I've been using that method for twitch IRC, it's not that bad
18:11 est31 I mean, you have to log in, join the server, copy the token, log out, and then send it over irc
18:12 kahrl it shouldn't be too hard to write a script for the irc client to do that
18:12 est31 is there an unified irc scripting language?
18:12 kahrl nope
18:13 kahrl you could do it as a shell script that copies the token to the clipboard, too
18:13 est31 yea thats what sfan5 suggested too
18:14 est31 (scripting the irc client)
18:14 est31 but perhaps we should deprecate minetest.get_password_hash then
18:14 est31 as its of no more use
18:14 kahrl isn't it already?
18:15 est31 no it isnt
18:15 kahrl I thought deprecating it was part of the move to SRP
18:15 est31 one use case, I admit, remains, which is the /setpassword command
18:16 sfan5 est31: get_password_hash can be used to do sha1 on data
18:16 est31 hacky stuff... perhaps it should be renamed then
18:17 * est31 puts the callback onto a branch where it can rot in piece
18:18 kahrl would it be possible to make /setpassword set a SRP, not a legacy password?
18:18 est31 yes it would
18:19 est31 but then people can't connect anymore with older clients
18:19 kahrl that's true
18:19 est31 also /setpassword doesnt benefit from SRP
18:19 est31 the server (even its owner) already know the password
18:20 sfan5 that's exactly what setpassword is for
18:20 est31 yes
18:21 est31 ok there are some benefits, like the removed replayability
18:21 est31 err no
18:21 est31 sorry
18:22 est31 replayability is already removed, even for "old" passwords
18:22 sfan5 hm
18:22 est31 "old" passwords get SRP too with the new protocol
18:22 sfan5 does changing the password remove the benefits of srp?
18:22 est31 with the hashes used as "passwords"
18:23 est31 sfan5, a player changing their password, or a server owner changing it?
18:23 sfan5 player
18:24 est31 a player changing or setting their password relies on some trust yes
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18:25 est31 when they change, they send a new verifier, unencrypted
18:25 sfan5 what does that mean?
18:25 sfan5 like
18:25 sfan5 what can the server owner do w/ that verifier?
18:25 est31 they can brute force
18:26 est31 not even the best protocol can save you from that
18:26 est31 its a basic feature of login protocols :)
18:26 Calinou brute force prevention in core?
18:26 sfan5 so nothing more than they can do anyway?
18:26 est31 no
18:27 est31 a MITM can't even impersonate the user to the server with that verifier
18:27 est31 AFAIK
18:33 est31 yes
18:34 est31 that website just sais so: https://www.logintc.com/blog/2013-​12-06-secure-remote-password.html
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18:39 est31 also I guess it would be great for the irc_commands mod to have a user mask based authentication scheme
18:39 est31 so you won't need passwords at all
18:39 est31 at least not for minetest
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19:25 est31 btw hmmmm whats the proper way to make the emerge thread make mapgen some day for some block?
19:26 est31 or just some way
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19:32 hmmmm someday?
19:33 hmmmm oh some way
19:33 hmmmm if you really want things to be done synchronously i recommend bypassing the emergethread entirely
19:33 est31 I dont need it to be blocking, I can restart minetest then it should be generated
19:33 hmmmm huh?
19:33 hmmmm well
19:34 hmmmm first of all you have to have an active EmergeManager
19:34 hmmmm emerge->initMapgens()
19:34 hmmmm otherwise nothing will get generated, only loaded
19:35 hmmmm then, emerge->startThreads()
19:36 hmmmm then, emerge->enqueueBlockEmerge(peer_id, blockpos, true);
19:36 est31 why do I need a peer id?
19:36 est31 ah I gues I know
19:37 est31 the data gets sent to the client with the peer id
19:37 hmmmm the emerge thread marks blocks it just created as unsent for that peer
19:37 hmmmm so the next time there's a server step, it'll send those unsent blocks
19:37 est31 very nice, enqueueBlockEmerge is the method I've needed I think, thanks
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20:17 BIrdyMeows Hello everyone :3
20:18 ElectronLibre BIrdyMeows.. Read the rules...
20:18 BIrdyMeows i have and?
20:19 BIrdyMeows left #minetest-dev
20:19 ElectronLibre "Chit-chat goes to #minetest."
20:21 hmmmm I wonder if BIrdyMeows was about to engage in hardcore minetest core development discussion
20:21 hmmmm ..or if he was going to make a variety of emoticons and greetings
20:21 ElectronLibre I don't think so. I know her, which is why I helped her understand that this was not the appriopriate channel.
20:22 ElectronLibre I think, variety of emoticons and greetings..
20:23 Calinou she was going to elaborate on deterministic, polymorphic Perlin noise functions with type inference.
20:49 jordan4ibanez if you do on_construct and then add the node you're constructing next to it, it'll do it infinitely and cause a segfault
20:52 hmmmm hmm
20:52 kahrl well... user error I'd say :P
20:52 hmmmm it's working as intended
20:52 hmmmm how can you possibly counter that?
20:52 hmmmm without restricting what users can do
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22:11 celeron55 hmmmm: i just stumbled upon this: http://c55.me/random/2011-05/uloste4.png
22:12 celeron55 that's a version of minetest that clearly waited for all block neighbors to have stone before adding dirt and grass and trees to them
22:15 hmmmm cool
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22:17 Hijiri joined #minetest-dev
22:17 celeron55 well actually looks like the code didn't wait for anything
22:18 celeron55 it just generated stone to places that had CONTENT_IGNORE at a full 3x3x3 volume around the block being generated
22:23 twoelk the landscape looks like sporting  large scars from something slashing at it, reminds of early mappainter cavegen
22:38 zat joined #minetest-dev
22:56 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2755
22:57 RealBadAngel any comments?
22:59 RealBadAngel hmmmm, kahrl?
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23:51 twoelk|2 joined #minetest-dev

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