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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-07-21

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13:56 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
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16:53 paramat i closed issue https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1462 and am now neutral about EW faces being brighter because celeron's 3 posts starting here http://irc.minetest.ru/minet​est-dev/2014-07-20#i_3823501 make good sense =)
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18:13 ShadowNinja PilzAdam: I got this E-mail about the launchpad builds.  Do you know how to fix it?: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7831616/
18:15 PilzAdam hm? is it enabled or disabled?
18:24 ShadowNinja PilzAdam: It's disabled because it uses an old revision, AFAIK.
18:25 ShadowNinja A revision before it was enabled.
18:26 PilzAdam ah
18:26 PilzAdam I can change the recipe
18:27 PilzAdam should I trigger new stable builds, too?
18:29 ShadowNinja It seems like that's necessary to apply it.
18:32 PilzAdam hm... there is a number I need to increase when requesting a new build with the same version number
18:32 PilzAdam I wonder which one of this: "0.4.10-0ppa1"
18:33 ShadowNinja The -0 part I think...
18:34 ShadowNinja Also, I noted that this is old: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~minetestdevs/​minetest-c55/packaging/view/head:/watch#L5
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18:38 BlockMen sfan5, opinion on https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/277 ?
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18:42 PilzAdam ShadowNinja, I better dont touch that now
18:42 PilzAdam maybe ask celeron55
18:43 Krock any chance to get some of my pulls merged?
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20:15 luizrpgluiz hi devs :)
20:17 Krock hi rpg player
20:17 luizrpgluiz :)
20:19 Krock congrats, you broke 2 hours of silence
20:20 luizrpgluiz :( sorry
20:21 luizrpgluiz I have some ideas and maybe some doubts
20:22 luizrpgluiz lol, that silence here on chat
20:23 luizrpgluiz someone died?
20:26 RealBadAngel we are waiting for ur ideas
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20:42 sfan5 BlockMen: looks good, except that particles should go through node as you said
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20:45 BlockMen sfan5, ok
20:47 BlockMen ShadowNinja, if you disable the particle collision you can merge you TNT pull. Personally i would prefer a lower velocity as well (e.g. 8), but thats your decision.
20:58 luizrpgluiz first few questions, because the game is done in Lua, what is the advantage of this programming language?
20:58 VanessaE easy moddability.
20:58 VanessaE easy to change it around any way you want.
20:59 VanessaE the game's content is mostly in Lua but the engine is C++
20:59 Zefram_Fysh lua is designed to be an embedded extension language, for exactly this sort of thing
20:59 luizrpgluiz what is the engine to generate the blocks?
21:00 VanessaE luizrpgluiz: the engine itself is Minetest, using irrlicht for the display part.
21:00 VanessaE the game content is called minetest_game if you're using the "default" one.  others inclued Carbone, Nodetopia, Dreambuilder, BFG, and a bunch of others.
21:00 VanessaE include(
21:00 VanessaE ...
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21:02 luizrpgluiz blocks is done in a modeler? Such as Blender?
21:04 LemonLake luizrpgluiz: some people use blender, some use some weird sculpting app, and some use rubenwardy's nodebox editor
21:05 sapier nodeboxes are different from models don't mix them up
21:05 VanessaE nope.
21:05 VanessaE blocks are specified by draw type
21:05 VanessaE you tell the engine if you want a cube, or a criss-cross "plantlike" or whatever.
21:05 VanessaE or a nodebox as described above
21:06 VanessaE the engine then does all the work of creating the cube/plant/etc.  all you have to do then is tell the engine what to *do* with it, and what textures to use.
21:06 VanessaE (more or less)
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21:08 VanessaE luizrpgluiz: in the case of the predefined drawtypes, you don't have to make any models of any kind, just textures and so forth.  in the case of nodeboxes, I guess most people just code the simpler ones directly, without using any kind of modeling app.
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21:15 RealBadAngel BlockMen, have you saw plantlike commit?
21:17 luizrpgluiz what is the program you use to write the code? for example, use the microsoft visual studio, eclipse, etc..
21:17 RealBadAngel luizrpgluiz, geany
21:18 VanessaE luizrpgluiz: a basic text editor.  gedit for me, sometimes nano.
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21:19 VanessaE luizrpgluiz: some people get fancy with managing the actual git repository when they're making commits, but editing the code is a job for an ordinary text editor
21:19 RealBadAngel geany is not so ordinary ;)
21:19 VanessaE maybe not, but gedit is :)
21:20 RealBadAngel cmon give it a try
21:20 VanessaE luizrpgluiz: when writing for the Lua side of things, your three best tools are gonna be a text editor like geany or gedit, an image editor like The GIMP or photoshop, and rubenwardy's nodebox editor.
21:21 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1506
21:21 BlockMen RealBadAngel, you mean the texture glitch thing?
21:21 RealBadAngel ^^ above
21:21 Zefram_Fysh or, if you're like me, a text editor like vi, an image editor like vi, and a nodebox editor like vi
21:21 RealBadAngel texture glitch is fixed already
21:23 RealBadAngel BlockMen, im asking you, because grasses and all other plants have to be added in minetest_game
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21:23 VanessaE except for junglegrass.
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21:23 VanessaE why IS junglegrass being done in-engine anyways?
21:23 RealBadAngel WHO knows ;)
21:24 * VanessaE pokes hmmmm
21:24 sapier RealBadAngel: BlockMen might be a little bit disapointet because of noone supporting 3dtorch drawtype
21:24 BlockMen historical reasons i guess
21:24 RealBadAngel lol
21:24 VanessaE sapier: nononono, no one supports re-defining the default torch drawtype :)
21:24 RealBadAngel for 3d torch i suggest waiting for drawtype mesh
21:25 RealBadAngel any other solutions are just workarounds, be it blockmen's or mine
21:25 * BlockMen disagrees
21:25 sapier why do you all suggest it instead of implementing it? we need a big fat warning not to use it for frequent nodes but at least we wouldn't have to discuss about special drawtypes good for one thing only
21:26 RealBadAngel mesh is not simple drawtype just for torches
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21:26 RealBadAngel this is fucking revolution
21:27 sapier I don't like the part of evolution where incredible amounts of useless things are created to find the best one ... at least if we already know what's best ;-)
21:28 RealBadAngel sapier, meshes as drawtype means no limits at all
21:28 sfan5 ^
21:28 sapier that's wrong ... engine speed is the limit
21:28 RealBadAngel i mean creativity
21:28 RealBadAngel not box limitations
21:28 sapier and?
21:29 VanessaE sapier: think of it this way: pipeworks' pipes would have fewer faces if modeled as meshnodes instead of nodeboxes.
21:29 VanessaE that means higher performance.
21:29 VanessaE I expect they'd have about half as many faces, if done properly.
21:29 sapier we don't limit to box anyway ... we don't encourage ppl to use it that way but it's their own fault if engine isn't fast enough to handle their insane nodes
21:30 sapier as usually ppl will abuse it resulting in a lot lower performance VanessaE
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21:30 RealBadAngel sapier, its a sandbox. theyre can do even weird things here
21:30 RealBadAngel even bring the lag on
21:31 VanessaE sapier:  of course.
21:31 RealBadAngel and you CANT deny it
21:31 sapier I don't want to deny anything I just want to warn them about
21:32 sapier mesh nodes will be of great benefit if used for decoration only
21:32 RealBadAngel there will be lightweight servers and some that will require nasa ones to run
21:32 sapier but dangerous if someone wants to do terrain
21:33 RealBadAngel wise modder will use the features in proper way
21:33 sapier LOL
21:33 RealBadAngel some morons will abuse it, for sure
21:34 RealBadAngel its not up to us to decide how the tools we made will be used
21:34 BlockMen RealBadAngel, but concerning your original question, its a nice addition
21:34 RealBadAngel and lightweight, almost no changes needed
21:35 RealBadAngel just add param2=math.random(90) to set_node
21:35 BlockMen but its junglegras only, right?
21:35 RealBadAngel by now, because jungle_grass is an execption, only plant done in core
21:36 BlockMen then the random rotation must be done by engine aswell
21:36 BlockMen since the jungles are done by the engine
21:36 VanessaE sapier: example of what we really want from mesh nodes:  https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modpack/c​ommit/f73cfa1cf5a4ba8bb526ac45d17a04a342c14768
21:36 VanessaE sapier: now imagine doing that without having to rely on this sort of hack
21:37 RealBadAngel BlockMen, its param2, you can change that on the fly even
21:37 RealBadAngel but it should be done on set node, to avoid flickering
21:37 RealBadAngel engine just takes that into account
21:37 BlockMen that would slow down map generation a lot
21:38 RealBadAngel cmon, dont joke
21:38 BlockMen either its done by jungle generation or not
21:38 BlockMen why joke? you need to check every node for that if its done by the game
21:38 sapier I don't consider this to be a hack vanessae
21:38 RealBadAngel huh?
21:38 luizrpgluiz why not create more mods for minetest without being with mods
21:38 RealBadAngel why checkin?
21:38 luizrpgluiz ops
21:38 RealBadAngel just set the damn param2 on setting the node
21:38 sapier it's a self moving object thus it's a entity not a node
21:39 luizrpgluiz why not create more mobs to minetest without being with mods
21:39 BlockMen the junglegrass is generated by engine
21:39 BlockMen not by game
21:39 RealBadAngel so what?
21:39 RealBadAngel rotation is the very same stuff as facedir
21:39 RealBadAngel does it slow the game or what?
21:39 BlockMen so how i change the param2 then? you would need to check every node that is generated and then change the param2
21:40 BlockMen that would slow down the generation a lot
21:40 RealBadAngel no for christ sake
21:40 RealBadAngel just set the node with param2
21:40 paramat 0.4.10 stable allows me to test both choices ... smooth lighting on, EW pair brighter > http://i.imgur.com/E4Rlrro.png ... smooth lighting off, EW pair darker > http://i.imgur.com/yzDxCs2.png ... with sun in view EW darker *perhaps* looks better. not an ideal comparison due to smooth lighting difference ;)
21:41 sapier paramat: you're missing sunset pictures
21:41 BlockMen RealBadAngel, again, the node is not set by the game. proove me im wrong and show me the line where the junglegrass is added by the game
21:41 luizrpgluiz why not create more mobs to minetest without being with mods
21:41 luizrpgluiz ?
21:41 RealBadAngel BlockMen, its not, but then why do you want to alter it?
21:42 BlockMen where did i say i want alter it?
21:42 RealBadAngel so whats the problem, because im lost :)
21:43 BlockMen the problem is: if you want the junglegrass use your addition you need to add that to the engine (in the mapgen)
21:43 BlockMen if you not want the generated junglegrass be randomly rotated then there is no problem
21:44 VanessaE BlockMen: look in his pull - it *does* rotate the junglegrass on-gen.
21:44 Zefram_Fysh it shouldn't be a problem for the engine's mapgen code to initialise a randomised param2 for those nodes
21:44 VanessaE BlockMen: he's saying that the same needs to happen for wild grass and so forth, but *those* grasses are only placed by minetest_game, which puts that ball in your court.
21:44 RealBadAngel it isnt
21:45 Zefram_Fysh the performance effect, which should be small either way, is presumably less for the engine's built-in mapgen than for the game's plugged-in code
21:45 RealBadAngel indeed, BlockMen, its your turn to add that to minetest_game
21:45 sapier Zefram_Fysh: actally engine mapgen shouldn't have any special handling for a single node
21:45 sapier we should talk to hmmmm how to do this in in a more generic wa
21:45 sapier y
21:46 Zefram_Fysh the engine's mapgen is made of special cases for particular node types
21:46 paramat sapier, indeed. i'm actually now neutral about this
21:46 RealBadAngel sapier, but since that is solved one liner is no harm
21:46 BlockMen VanessaE, why not helping earlier? :P
21:46 BlockMen RealBadAngel, got it now
21:46 VanessaE BlockMen: I was afk.
21:46 sapier for gods sake just because something is a "one-liner" that's not an excuse
21:46 sapier adding 1000 one lines will still result in a lot of crap
21:47 RealBadAngel sapier, its not a crap
21:47 BlockMen RealBadAngel, bump me again when its merged or open an pull for that
21:47 RealBadAngel param2 is the thing we use widely
21:47 sapier you're doing game development in core RealBadAngel
21:47 RealBadAngel if youre not familiar with it just assume we know what we are doing
21:48 RealBadAngel ofc i am
21:48 RealBadAngel param2 is the most used one by me
21:48 RealBadAngel for everything
21:48 sapier if you need one special hardcoded node to be changed by mapgen that's crap
21:48 RealBadAngel thats another story
21:48 sapier I don't have any issues with rotating them by param2 but making mapgen do this based on this special node is crap
21:49 RealBadAngel i guess those are remains of hardcoded jungle
21:49 sapier yes and they should be removed as fast as possible so don't bloat them even more
21:49 RealBadAngel and revivng that without fixing that
21:49 VanessaE there's a problem though...  aren't grasses et al. added as mapgen "decorations"?
21:49 VanessaE (junglegrass aside)
21:49 BlockMen sapier, what? have you ever tried to spawn a jungle with lua mapgen?
21:50 BlockMen its WAY slower
21:50 sapier did I say anything about lua?
21:50 VanessaE fastest way to spawn a jungle in Lua is with moretrees ;)
21:50 RealBadAngel ^^
21:50 sapier a generic mechanism could be in core to ... e.g. the mentioned decorations mechanism
21:50 sapier I don't know the details as this is hmmmms realm
21:51 VanessaE sapier: I ask about decorations because unless I missed an update, they son't support param2 at all, do they?
21:51 VanessaE let alone randomized param2 per node
21:51 BlockMen is adding decorations faster than voxelmanip?
21:51 RealBadAngel but seriously, i hate when one liner turns into discussion about meaning of life and everythin ;)
21:51 VanessaE BlockMen: it's supposed to be, yes.
21:51 VanessaE RealBadAngel: 42.
21:52 sapier well don't flag controversial things as oneliners RealBadAngel ;-)
21:52 RealBadAngel VanessaE, its actually 46+some random ;)
21:52 VanessaE :P
21:52 BlockMen by what factor? (deco vs vmanip)
21:52 sapier btw most hacks are one liners too so discussions about one liners are even more likely then about bigger patches ;-P
21:53 VanessaE BlockMen: I'm not sure, but with a vmanip, you have to find the surface yourself first, but deco already knows where the surface is.  so that's a big speedup there.
21:53 RealBadAngel sapier, ik that should be changed. but since its here, jungle grasses should be using the feature also
21:53 RealBadAngel just for the time being, until theyre fixed
21:53 sapier sorry but I don't think so that's just the "quick and dirty" way of doing things proller used to do it
21:54 BlockMen VanessaE, k, makes sense
21:54 VanessaE RealBadAngel: imho, push the part about adding rotation support but NOT the one line that randomizes the grasses' rotations on-gen.  leave that for later after this is all hashed out.
21:54 RealBadAngel code will piss on it if its done by mapgen v6 or mapgen v76, it cares if param2 is set or no
21:54 RealBadAngel *not
21:54 sapier doing it right causes a lot of work noone will really see and everyone will complain about bugs but it's still the right way to do
21:55 RealBadAngel sapier, that one liner generated param2 will stay in maps
21:55 RealBadAngel even the code will be moved to proper place
21:55 RealBadAngel got the point?
21:56 sapier as I said I don't have any issue with using param2 for rotation only with hacking mapgen to set it
21:56 RealBadAngel its not hacking
21:56 RealBadAngel its using
21:56 sapier if you hardcode junglegrass thats hacking
21:56 RealBadAngel i didnt
21:57 RealBadAngel i use it
21:57 sapier no because that doesn't fix regular grass
21:57 sapier does it?
21:57 sapier or farming wheatß
21:57 RealBadAngel ofc it cant, its up to mods
21:57 sapier or other plants?
21:58 sapier farming is minetest_game
21:58 RealBadAngel jungle_grass is an exception
21:58 sapier don't waste time on exceptions provide generic solutions
21:58 RealBadAngel i cant make a pull for minetest_game without core support :P
21:59 sapier you can do both pulls at once
21:59 Zefram_Fysh whatever mapgen code puts an affected plant type into the map should set its rotation randomly.  for jungle grass that happens to be built-in mapgen code, and for others it happens to be lua mapgen code.  having got a split mapgen arrangement, there's nothing wrong in making both halves handle the rotation of their plants
21:59 RealBadAngel no i cant
21:59 VanessaE ok yeah, there's nothing in the API that allows a decoration to take on a param2 value.
21:59 sapier and while you're doing it remove junglegrass and implement it in the new generic way
21:59 VanessaE RealBadAngel: you're gonna have to extend the decorations to allow it.
22:00 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L2519
22:00 RealBadAngel sapier, i wont do that job, its not my playground
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22:00 sapier but adding hacks in someone elses playground is ok?
22:00 BlockMen then you should argue against torch exception aswell, RealBadAngel
22:00 RealBadAngel shit, thats not a hack
22:00 VanessaE schematics can take param2, but grasses aren't schematics.
22:01 RealBadAngel since when all the param2 values are hacks?
22:01 RealBadAngel call the facedir a hack or shut up
22:01 sapier you change things that shouldn't even be there ... and it's not a 2months work to fix it
22:02 sapier sorry but I'm annoyed about everyone adding hacks around minetest and noone really cleaning up the mess
22:02 RealBadAngel is facedir a hack?
22:02 RealBadAngel simple yes or no
22:02 RealBadAngel please
22:02 sapier mapgen is hack
22:02 RealBadAngel not related
22:02 RealBadAngel again
22:02 sapier then don't change mapgen to set it and we're fine
22:03 RealBadAngel ofc mapgen set facedir
22:03 RealBadAngel to 0
22:03 sapier no that's just default
22:03 RealBadAngel default is also a value
22:04 sapier it's not set but initialized ... small but significant difference
22:04 RealBadAngel difference is when the value exists or not
22:04 VanessaE RealBadAngel: to repeat.... imho, push the part about adding rotation support but NOT the one line that randomizes the grasses' rotations on-gen.  leave that for later after this is all hashed out.
22:04 RealBadAngel not being set or not
22:05 RealBadAngel i want the jungles to be nicer :P
22:05 RealBadAngel https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/2177790​/3638763/bde707d0-105f-11e4-8033-99a8811ff03c.png
22:05 BlockMen and i the torches. and both wont happen that way...
22:05 sapier then cleanup junglegrass like any responsible coder would do instead of messing up already messed up code even more
22:06 RealBadAngel is mapgenv6 some religion artifact or what?
22:06 RealBadAngel so no1 can even touch it?
22:06 sapier do some of the unsatisfying work of cleaning up code too
22:07 RealBadAngel nore, paramat, hmmmm are doing in mapgens
22:07 sapier that's most likely a small job anyway
22:07 RealBadAngel not me
22:07 sapier then explain them what you need and support them fixing it
22:08 RealBadAngel at this point i would consider hireing paramt to do the right job ;)
22:08 luizrpgluiz what you intend to put in version 1.5?
22:09 RealBadAngel ok, so remove that mapgen "hack"  by now?
22:09 sapier I do want things to get nicer to but please do it in a clean way and not by hardcoding special things
22:09 RealBadAngel theyre already hardcoded, i had no other way for jungle grass
22:10 RealBadAngel otherwise it will remain unsupported for the time some1 will fix it
22:10 sapier god damn RealBadAngel I can't hear that crazy excuse any more ... just because god knows how many ppl already jumped from golden gate bridge you wouldn't jump yourself too ... would you?
22:10 RealBadAngel adding support for all the other plants in lua mapgen is a matter of a few minutes, i can do that
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22:11 sapier wrong things stay wrong no matter how often they already have been done wrong
22:12 luizrpgluiz what you intend to put in version 1.5?
22:12 RealBadAngel ok, but when i just want to paint a wall yellow it doesnt mean i need to demolish it first
22:13 VanessaE luizrpgluiz: 1.5?
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22:13 sapier For what I understand you want a comfortable quick n dirty way and let someone else cleanup the mess you made...
22:13 VanessaE luizrpgluiz: we're only in the version 0.4.x series right now.  0.4.11 is the next release.
22:13 RealBadAngel sapier, wut? its not my code
22:13 RealBadAngel i just added param2 set here
22:13 sapier are you a minetest developer or aren't you?
22:14 RealBadAngel i havent touched mapgen stuff once in my life :P
22:14 luizrpgluiz i am a gamer pc
22:14 sapier luizrpgluiz: sorry but could you please go to minetest this is supposed to be development channel
22:14 RealBadAngel but lets give a voice to the prophet:
22:14 RealBadAngel <VanessaE> but there's a certain...resistance to changing anything having to do with mgv6
22:15 RealBadAngel very true, im removing that mgv6 stuff
22:15 sapier There's been a big resistance to unfreeze minetest_game too ;-)
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22:16 luizrpgluiz so dear developers, is that I had some ideas to share among you
22:16 RealBadAngel my game has own mapgens, i dont really have to care bout v6
22:16 sapier luizrpgluiz: best way to share ideas is creating an issue on github
22:16 RealBadAngel so bye bye funny jungle grasses for the masses ;)
22:18 luizrpgluiz Have you seen the lighting Terasology game before?
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22:18 sapier luizrpgluiz: could you just write your suggestion?
22:18 sapier this isn't "ask the devs"-channel ;-)
22:19 RealBadAngel well, it is
22:19 luizrpgluiz The first suggestion would be to try this kind of lighting you have in terasology
22:20 RealBadAngel luizrpgluiz, we are already on it
22:20 RealBadAngel but that will take time, lotsa
22:21 paramat heh i do actually have a 'better jungles' mod for mgv6 https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=11&amp;t=8862 =)
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22:25 luizrpgluiz why not put existing mods in the game, for example to make this mod as a part of the game?
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22:25 BlockMen paramat, already used in Minetest+ :)
22:26 BlockMen problem is the slowdown in mapgeneration :\
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22:28 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1506
22:28 RealBadAngel updated, no modifications to mgv6
22:28 RealBadAngel can i push that?
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22:29 BlockMen RealBadAngel, yes
22:29 RealBadAngel thx
22:31 paramat cool, nice feature
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22:32 RealBadAngel ok, its in
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22:35 RealBadAngel luizrpgluiz, we cant put every mod out there into game
22:36 luizrpgluiz but what if they ask the developer of the mod?
22:36 RealBadAngel to do what?
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22:44 luizrpgluiz talk to one of the developers of the mod and request permission to turn part of your mod game
22:46 VanessaE luizrpgluiz: every so often, part of some mod will get imported either into the engine in some generic form, or a mod will get imported in part or whole into the default game
22:46 VanessaE for example, recently the xpanes and boats mods made it into minetest_game
22:46 RealBadAngel on the other hand, look at definition
22:47 RealBadAngel mod means modification
22:47 RealBadAngel many mods can modify the same thing
22:48 RealBadAngel not all, if any will become part of official game
22:48 VanessaE which is why we have the override_item() call
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22:48 RealBadAngel its up to players to choose their mods to play with
22:48 VanessaE one mod could change a texture a node, let's say dirt, then another mod comes along and adds a new drop to that same dirt, then another mod could change the digging and walking sounds, while yet another mod could add something else, etc.
22:49 VanessaE change the texture of a node*
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23:37 gentoobro i have a custom mapgen made with register_on_generated. will ores defined with register_ore be placed before my custom function runs or after?
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23:52 RealBadAngel gentoobro, i suggest reading moreores code
23:52 RealBadAngel this mod does such things
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