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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-06-26

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Time Nick Message
00:03 RealBadAngel rotfl
00:03 RealBadAngel i just shrunk the code
00:03 RealBadAngel ShandowNinja, wanna laugh some too?
00:03 RealBadAngel i bet you will
00:04 RealBadAngel http://pastebin.com/B4z55jDS
00:04 RealBadAngel thats WHOLE engine patch for tanks...
00:14 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: :-D  That's great!
00:15 RealBadAngel one thing i have to add, merging the tank nodes only vertically
00:15 RealBadAngel but that should be like 2-3 lines extra
00:34 ShadowNinja https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1418
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02:45 kahrl ShadowNinja: the I is for interface
02:51 ShadowNinja kahrl: Ah, thanks.
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05:54 celeron55 ShadowNinja: it's a way of structuring C++ that i like
05:55 celeron55 i.e. have pure virtual interfaces and implement them in a single file without exposing anything from there
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15:19 ShadowNinja celeron55: Can you /mode +b *!*@APuteaux-651-1-153-154.w92-154.a​bo.wanadoo.fr$##fix_your_connection please?
15:23 RealBadAngel ShadowNinja, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elstn-LahlI  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwjWWifxOfc  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcQ--DOaEHI
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15:31 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Very neat.  The inner part should connect horizontally though, and obviously tanks mods will have to distribute the contents in a more inteligent way.  With meta_set_nodedef you could also make lava containers glow (without need of extra nodes).
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15:33 RealBadAngel connecting of fluids is done already
15:34 RealBadAngel at least horizontally by now
15:35 RealBadAngel well, for lava glow in a container you can just replace it with def that has lightsource defined
15:35 RealBadAngel 2 nodes for that is not so much
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15:42 celeron55 ShadowNinja: what is that $##, is it some freenode specific thing?
15:42 celeron55 also why is IRC so badly documented
15:42 celeron55 i'll do without it so i maybe understand what i'm doing
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15:43 sfan5 celeron55: freenode specific, redirects person to specified channel
15:43 sfan5 +b <mask>$<channel to redirect to>
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15:54 ShadowNinja Not freenode specific, it's in Charydbis.  But, yes, it's a channel forward.
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15:54 ShadowNinja Charybdis*
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15:55 sfan5 ShadowNinja: the ban did not work
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16:09 asl ShadowNinja: you broke the chainsaw
16:14 ShadowNinja asl: How?  And -> #minetest-technic
16:14 asl ShadowNinja: you aren't there or at least i can't see you there
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16:15 ShadowNinja celeron55: He has a bunch of IPs, you'll need a wide range ban. @APuteaux-651-1-* or so.
16:15 Calinou [Proposal]: Switch from 20 HP to 100 HP system: it makes more sense, is more accurate: If people are interested, I may write a patch for this. What is needed is increasing the health constant and falling damage, and of course telling mod developers to update their mod
16:16 Calinou if this is OK, I can post an issue for this
16:16 Calinou (it's also more game-agnostic?)
16:16 ShadowNinja asl: I am there, check your spelling and preceding #s.
16:16 ShadowNinja Er, NVM...
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16:26 RealBadAngel Calinou, better work on experience system and leveling the character
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16:28 Calinou why BETTER work?
16:28 Calinou it's not like you should “move” development work on something
16:29 Calinou feel free to make the max health value changeable in the Lua API (ideal)
16:29 Calinou you're definitely not the core dev to help for gameplay stuff
16:30 RealBadAngel thats what i meant
16:31 RealBadAngel instead of setting another fixed value, we should think on ways to improve it
16:31 RealBadAngel my idea was leveling the character
16:31 Calinou if we improve it, the default value would probably be 100; so we could change the constant and fall damage for 100 now, then seek ways to make it not hardcoded (non-trivial)
16:34 RealBadAngel propably makin it changeable could be enough for modders to develop such leveling systems
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17:33 Megaf Any news on the Android builds?
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20:40 VanessaE regarding health/HP values, if not a 0-100 range, then at least allow for floats in the 0-20 range.  The point being, allow more finely-detailed adjustments of a player's health (or rather, a better range of health adjustments between foods in a mod).
20:42 sfan5 >float
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20:42 VanessaE well decimals; afaik the HP system we have now only allows for integers.
20:42 sapier in general I'd support this request ... but not for 0.4.10
20:43 VanessaE naw, not for 0.4.10, too late for that
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20:46 ShadowNinja If we use floats we should use 0-1 instead of 0-20.  If we use integers a 0-255 range would be good.
20:47 RealBadAngel if we would ever add leveling of the character value cannot be limited
20:50 RealBadAngel i mean not add in core, but allow that for mods rather
20:51 RealBadAngel players could gain exp by mining, killing mobs, crafting items, eating special items, doing quests or whatever
20:51 RealBadAngel and then use that to increase hp for example
20:51 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: I think sapier made a patch for what you're talking about, arbitrary player values, not just HP and breath.
20:52 RealBadAngel so, when he already did that, why we do discuss players health?
20:53 sapier because it's not compatible
20:53 sapier we'd have to break compatibility in order to gain full benefit ... if we don't do it we add just a lot of code
20:58 ShadowNinja sapier: What do you mean by your comment on my rollback pull?
20:58 ShadowNinja 2 weeks prior merge?
20:58 ShadowNinja Do you mean release?
20:59 sapier did I write merge? sorry yes meant release
20:59 ShadowNinja sapier: Yes, it might be better for 0.4.11/0.5.0.
21:00 ShadowNinja I added a milestone and added it to it.
21:00 ShadowNinja Do you think that meta_set_nodedef would be a good enough excuse for 0.5.0?
21:01 sapier I'm absolutely positive about rewriting this as it's extremely ugly right now ... I only fixed worst issues for 0.4.10
21:01 VanessaE RealBadAngel: your idea is a good one, but all I'm talking about, specifically, is *just* the HP range.  XP is different from HP.
21:01 sapier don't know what is meta_set_nodedef?
21:01 VanessaE sapier: the ability to change a node's model right in the map data.
21:01 VanessaE without redefining that node.
21:01 sapier VanessaE actually HP is just a number, same as Experience or anything else
21:02 VanessaE sapier: no.  in RPG talk, HP != XP.
21:02 VanessaE they are totally different concepts.
21:02 sapier I didn't sae it's same, I said its a number ;-P
21:02 VanessaE ok :)
21:02 sapier so both are a number
21:02 VanessaE yes
21:02 ShadowNinja sapier: You can do something like minetest.get_meta(pos):set_string("__nodedef", "{light_source=14}") and make a node at a position glow (although there's a proper API function for it).
21:03 sapier and as of developers perspective it's nothing different ... of course you can use a number to implement completely different game mechanics ;-)
21:03 ShadowNinja So, eg, mesecons only need one node.
21:03 RealBadAngel point i rised is that whatever the health value will be, it cannot be fixed and have to be changeable by mods
21:03 ShadowNinja Because the nodebox can be changed dynamically.
21:03 sapier that's why I suggeste the generic stats mechanism so everyone can use numbers for whatver seh/he wants
21:03 VanessaE and the available range of the HP value is 0-20, but it can neither handle decimals nor grow beyond 20, making it very difficult (if not impossible) to make mods where the foods have a good health balance.
21:04 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Decimals?  Don't you mean floats?
21:04 VanessaE ShadowNinja: yes.
21:04 sapier I'm not sure about floats
21:04 RealBadAngel 20 is good for newbs, they will have to play a bit to survive
21:04 RealBadAngel and dont die in first found hole
21:04 sapier I'd suggest natural numbers as their're way more predictable
21:05 VanessaE RealBadAngel: there needs to be an upper bound, lest you end up with players who have super-human health.
21:05 sapier why?
21:05 ShadowNinja Float serialization is ugly.  It just multiplies it by 1000 and casts it to an int.
21:05 sapier imho a upper bound is mod issue not engine issue
21:05 VanessaE ShadowNinja: ew.
21:05 RealBadAngel make wise leveling system then
21:06 ShadowNinja That's why it's called readF1000/writeF1000.
21:06 RealBadAngel gainin first levels easy, then harder and harder...
21:06 sapier leveling system is not core issue
21:06 VanessaE RealBadAngel: you're missing the point
21:06 VanessaE what about the FOOD
21:07 VanessaE I'm talking about giving the damn FOOD some value here
21:07 sapier which isn't core issue too vanessae
21:07 VanessaE sapier: I know that, but somewhere, at some point, those values have to be added to the player's health.
21:07 sapier why?
21:07 sapier engine doesn't have to do anything about that
21:07 VanessaE be...cause what's the point of food that can't be eaten to gain health from?
21:08 sapier that's still a modding issue
21:08 VanessaE maybe but right now it's stuck at a 0-20 range.
21:08 sapier I'm absolutely with you that current health mechanism is limited
21:08 RealBadAngel VanessaE, im not missing the point, high leveled player will have to eat shitload of apples to regain full health ;)
21:08 * VanessaE shrugs.  obviously you get the point :)
21:09 sapier and? :-)
21:09 VanessaE RealBadAngel: right.  but somehow the concept of the player's health being totally unbounded feels... wrong.
21:09 VanessaE sapier: and...what are we gonna DO about it? :)
21:09 sapier nothing right now
21:10 RealBadAngel leveling mechanism will limit it
21:10 sapier it's not engine issue to set specific limits
21:10 RealBadAngel indeed
21:11 sapier values have to be changed by mods so mods can and even have to enforce those limits
21:11 RealBadAngel mods that will use it will take care of handling it properly
21:11 VanessaE sapier: then what prevents me from giving a slice of uncooked strawberry pie a health value of, say, 0.25 (that is, an eighth of a heart)?
21:11 sapier imho the only thing where something like a "limit" is statbars ... there you have to add a way to tell how to interpret a number
21:11 RealBadAngel VanessaE, when we will free the limit, heart or 1/2 heart term will become obsolete
21:12 sapier e.g. "half_item = 100"
21:12 VanessaE RealBadAngel: in which case, what will you use to display the HP level, as sapier alluded to just now?
21:12 RealBadAngel it will be just graphical representation of hp
21:12 sapier or "min = 0", "max=100"
21:13 sapier exactly it's graphical only ... basicaly it's a statbar config parameter
21:13 RealBadAngel displaying the bar can be made by converting hp/hp_max to 0-1 range
21:13 sapier that'd be another way to configure statbar too yes
21:13 VanessaE but when I said an eighth of a heart, I meant that as a reference to the numeric value - if I wanted to use a HP value of 0.25 for that slice of raw pie, it'll be rejected.  So if it's not an engine issue, then what prevents that float from being used?
21:14 sapier sorry don't understand that sentence
21:14 RealBadAngel VanessaE, slices of cake wont level up ;) they gonna give player always the same ammount of hp
21:15 sapier a small example in future version a mod defines player health to have values between 0 and 10000
21:15 RealBadAngel but not in term of hearts anymore, just pure hp
21:15 VanessaE sapier: https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L1555
21:15 sapier and health bar is configured that one hart is 1000 while at max 10 hearts ar show
21:15 VanessaE sapier: if I pass a value of 0.25 as the first argument of this function, right now, what will happen?
21:15 VanessaE it'll be rejected or it'll become 0 or some other thing I guess, right?
21:16 RealBadAngel rounded to 0?
21:16 sapier nothing because if we do it the stat way that interface will be removed completely
21:16 VanessaE in any case, it won't be interpreted as exactly 0.25
21:16 sapier well I'm not talking about the current mechanism
21:16 VanessaE I *am* talking about the current mechanism
21:16 VanessaE because I'm trying to retain compatibility with mods.
21:17 sapier then I'm out I'm not gonna waste time on a broken by design mechanism ;-)
21:17 VanessaE heh
21:17 VanessaE I didn't say I wanted to *keep* it.
21:18 sapier I suggested a new way of doing it, by now the only issue someone (myself) mentioned it's absolutely incompatible to current way of doing
21:18 sapier so it's only helpfull for 0.5
21:18 sapier and in case we do it that or a similar way discussing about 0.25 is absolutely useless ;-)
21:20 RealBadAngel sapier, https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/com​mit/2a48505077378446e125c161ce59d2fc7152b05c
21:21 RealBadAngel current code for glasslike_framed interior
21:21 VanessaE sapier: just FYI, 210 references to the various get_hp/set_hp and *item_eat functions in my entire mod tree.
21:21 RealBadAngel not finished yet, still workin on it
21:21 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/944 I'd delay this to 0.4.11 or does anyone know how to fix it till end of month?
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21:22 sapier that's why it's gonna be called 0.5 ;-)
21:22 sapier btw maybe some mod could implement hp in a similar way then now so this might not be a issue that big
21:22 VanessaE so I suggest if the whole HP[/XP] idea gets revamped, it gets a new set of API calls also.
21:23 sapier that's exactly what I'm talking about
21:23 VanessaE I don't recall you saying that before :)
21:24 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1335 here ;-)
21:24 VanessaE regarding 944, personally I think that should be fixed for 0.4.10
21:25 VanessaE it's persisted for far too long now.
21:25 RealBadAngel nore seems to know how to fix it
21:25 RealBadAngel at least he suggested that he knows
21:31 sapier VanessaE: problem is there's noone active knowing that code and that part is quite complicated chances to do it worse then now are quite big
21:32 sapier well if nore knows how to fix he should write a pull request
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21:47 Sokomine shadowninja: that meta_set_nodedef sounds very intresting and useful
21:51 RealBadAngel i would love to see that branch in, so many things could be made way better with that
21:53 RealBadAngel Sokomine, that branch means single node def for nodes like wires, cables, tubes coloured stuff whatever
21:53 RealBadAngel and much much more
21:53 Sokomine oh yes. i'd definitely approve of fixing of #944
21:54 sapier well everyone approving it wont do the work ;-P
21:55 Sokomine rba: does it allow to change individual nodes on the map or does it change all nodes?
21:56 Sokomine sapier: that's the drawback i'm afraid. i did take a short look at it when i reported it, but i'm not really familiar with the code
21:56 sapier me too the only thing I know about that code is it's extremely ugly
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21:57 Sokomine there's also something else i'd love to be merged eventually: sfan5's map saving client. it is a great help when visiting less reliable servers (those where server admins tend to discard the work of weeks by "oh, did you notice? we just have a new map. say bye-bye to your large building project!"
21:57 sapier is there a pull request by now?
21:58 Sokomine only my bug report i'm afraid. i might try to look into it again
21:59 Sokomine or do you mean for the map-saving? sfan5 has a fork for it. i've modifeid it slightly locally so that instead of one localmap, it does save per world
22:00 sapier I was talking about map saving
22:02 Sokomine ah. sfan5 around? he wrote it after all. most of it is his code. i just placed it into the latest version and added that per-world-saving
22:02 Sokomine it's a pretty elegant way how he created that local saving. it doesn't need much code
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22:33 RealBadAngel Sokomine, point of that branch is ability to modify single node on the map
22:34 RealBadAngel by modifying its nodeboxes, textures on the fly
22:35 RealBadAngel so for example for all the possible mesecons wires connections you wont need multiple node definitions. ONE will do
22:35 VanessaE if that feature EVER makes it into mainline
22:35 VanessaE how long has it been pending now?
22:35 VanessaE a year?
22:36 RealBadAngel this will also make wires climbing up the walls a child's play to make
22:36 VanessaE RealBadAngel: nore already did that.
22:36 VanessaE https://github.com/Novatux/wires
22:36 VanessaE :)
22:36 RealBadAngel see? its even already done ;)
22:37 VanessaE but those don't use set nodedef
22:37 VanessaE those use nodes.
22:38 RealBadAngel ahh, thats why its so long ;)
22:39 VanessaE you can play with that one on my Creative server.
22:42 RealBadAngel cool, gonna try it
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23:34 Sokomine rba: sounds very good
23:46 RealBadAngel Sokomine, the mod by nore, that VE linked... it does the wires, indeed
23:46 RealBadAngel but uses about 1000 node definitions...
23:47 RealBadAngel instead of single one
23:47 RealBadAngel just to make mesecon wires...
23:49 Sokomine yes. hope that get merged
23:55 Sokomine is there a flag for nodes that will support that feature?

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