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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-03-24

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Time Nick Message
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01:38 spillz celeron55: trying out recipe here https://code.launchpad.net/~dami​en-moore/+recipe/minetest-daily
01:39 spillz I tried joining minetestdevs on launchpad
01:39 spillz Once my recipe works I can try changing yours
01:41 spillz Very small changes to packaging code: https://code.launchpad.net/~da​mien-moore/+junk/mt-packaging
01:41 PilzAdam spillz, you could also add the optional build dependencies, like leveldb and freetype
01:41 PilzAdam if you like
01:41 spillz Will do
01:47 spillz drawback of using minetest for package name instead of minetestc55 is the need to ensure version number is higher than the one in official repo.
01:48 iqualfragile luajit!
01:54 spillz What do others think about that?
02:00 spillz luajit, i mean?
02:01 spillz Also not much point including leveldb in build deps unless it's enabled
02:05 PilzAdam of course it should be enabled too
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04:10 ShadowNinja ~tell sapier I found a number of issues with your latest APK and listed them here: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7144510/
04:10 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: O.K.
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14:44 xyz celeron55: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=8863
14:45 xyz make sure to glue your hand to the desk or something or you'll probably facepalm yourself to death
14:53 xyz is it okay if I ban some people from this thread for DoS'ing servers? pretty sure it's illegal
14:53 xyz according to russian laws
14:54 xyz (yes there are laws in russia)
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15:12 celeron55 oh god
15:14 celeron55 i guess they could learn something from a ban so feel free to (for a limited time though, and making sure that they know why they were banned)
15:15 celeron55 selling the thing on a $15 CD is ridiculous though 8D
15:26 celeron55 am i allowed to change the download page of minetest.net to require a $5 payment before downloading the windows build, just for a few days to test what happens? i'm probably too lazy to do that, but if i do, i will publish all data from the experiment
15:32 us`0gb As long as the source is available, I don't see any problem with that experiment. Although, people will just come to the forum and get the unofficial builds.
15:33 us`0gb Bluh, I have to go to work. I'll see you people later.
15:39 celeron55 it would be an experiment to see how many people see it as a product worth $5
15:40 celeron55 of course the regulars and the open source people would just get it elsewhere
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15:45 spillz celeron55: that would be an interesting experiment and i would like to see the data. another approach would be to insert a payment page before the download links that defaults to a payment option with a nicely thought out message explaining how paying will help development and a payment slider defaulted to $5, with a no thanks option. Always surprising the effect that moral suasion can have.
15:46 spillz Would feel more honest that way too
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15:47 spillz also, have you thought about making the android (and future ios) port paid, with um an actual complete default game?
15:48 celeron55 the issue still is though that we have absolutely zero experience in distributing money around (and no legal status as a community of any kind)
15:49 spillz yes, and as soon as money gets involved things inevitably get unpleasant
15:49 celeron55 i could start taking such payments, but there needs to be a plan of what to do if they grow large
15:50 spillz Probably not a huge risk :)
15:51 spillz Probably more likely with good mobile ports
15:51 celeron55 well, if the money isn't going anywhere, i'm going to end up with hundreds of dollars fairly quick that don't belong to me
15:53 celeron55 immediately after writing the initial question i also thought that i could just try to spend a few days to make something based on minetest and then try if it's possible to sell that; then it wouldn't be unfair for me to take all the money and everyone would be fairly happy
15:54 PenguinDad you should add an option to buy it with doges IMHO
15:56 spillz celeron55: fairly happy unless you rake it in :]
16:02 sfan5 celeron55: divide per commits made to minetest/minetest and minetest/minetest_game
16:02 sfan5 PilzAdam would get the most
16:02 sfan5 :P
16:02 spillz the litany of mods seems like there is scope for minetest to be used as an engine to develop a lot of interesting games. I would love to try something this myself using a time delayed open source license,  but (a) too lazy, (b) have no artistic skill, (c) don't have time and (d) didn't author the engine or any other code so would be hated into eternity :)
16:04 spillz and (e) don't want or need the money, just like the idea of the experiment
16:04 celeron55 no you wouldn't, as long as you actually have new ideas and follow licenses right from the start; the real problem with doing that is having to sit down and think and code for a long time instead of talking random shit on IRC 8)
16:05 * sfan5 just had idea
16:05 sfan5 how about we start to take bitcoin donation and use them to host minetest servers
16:06 sfan5 we don't need to rely on bitcoin exchanges that way
16:06 PenguinDad only bitcoin?
16:06 sfan5 we get bitcoins and pay using bitcoins for something
16:06 sfan5 PenguinDad: dogecoin and litecoin are pretty much useless for getting stuff on the internet
16:07 celeron55 well, we could even just have a donation address that directly gives the money to the VPS host :P
16:08 sfan5 what if we host multiple VPSs or want to use money for other things; or when the vps host steals any extra money?
16:08 sfan5 ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Dedicated.2FVirtual_Server_Hosting list here)
16:10 celeron55 i use moln.is for certain purposes, it accepts bitcoin but isn't on that list
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16:11 sfan5 dat moving clouds, so cute </offtopic>
16:11 celeron55 (and actually that's just re-branded portlane.com)
16:13 celeron55 (which is also gridlane.com)
16:14 sfan5 soo... how about a test run with accepting bitcoin donations?
16:14 celeron55 who takes care of it?
16:15 sfan5 dunno
16:15 sfan5 creating a bitcoin wallet is easy
16:15 sfan5 pretty much everyone could do that
16:17 sfan5 if nobody else wants to do it, I would be ok with doing it
16:18 celeron55 i don't really use bitcoin, altough i have a small amount in a wallet on a computer that i don't generally use 8)
16:18 sfan5 I don't really used it either
16:18 sfan5 but I have about $3 worth of BC I got by mining (last year when it was still profitable)
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16:26 xyz sfan5: let me highlight the ultimate problem
16:26 xyz "we get bitcoins"
16:26 xyz sorry buy your idea won't work
16:31 celeron55 that probably mostly depends on whether the people that see it have bitcoins to begin with
16:33 sfan5 xyz: This is why we should do a test run to see whether we actually get any
16:33 xyz you won't
16:34 celeron55 if someone really wants to host some kind of community-paid servers like that, you could just use paypal and dollars because then there is a larger audience that actually can pay
16:35 xyz that too, but people won't pay
16:35 sfan5 xyz: you cannot be sure before trying
16:35 xyz sfan5: those guys have tried
16:35 xyz sfan5: those chinese ones and then those globeminner ones
16:35 sfan5 yeah
16:35 sfan5 and some people actually did pay
16:35 xyz they got "waaah waaah payiiin' for a freee gamee???"
16:36 xyz you sure?
16:36 sfan5 but the rate of people paying will be higher if they see something finished that works good
16:36 sfan5 s/paying/donating/
16:36 sfan5 s/finished//
16:36 xyz yeah sure
16:37 xyz good luck with that
16:37 sfan5 you can always try
16:37 celeron55 i think people should focus on creating something new instead of monetizing existing things
16:37 xyz of course
16:37 xyz if you don't value your time you can
16:37 celeron55 then if someone creates something new, then asking for money can become an option
16:41 xyz kids are your target audience; they don't have money
16:41 xyz well maybe not target
16:43 proller but 99% of players
16:43 sfan5 [citation needed]
16:43 xyz see android app reviews
16:43 xyz see forums
16:45 celeron55 it's obvious that there are way more kids than with practically any other project
16:45 xyz yep
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16:45 xyz it's because of the genre
16:46 celeron55 something like openttd is in the same range
16:46 RealBadAngel i wonder about one thing, is this guy allowed to claim copyrights for it?
16:47 celeron55 there are not many projects like this
16:47 RealBadAngel on the CD image theres copyright notice
16:47 xyz RealBadAngel: nobody is a lawyer here
16:47 proller openttd for 30+ years players
16:48 celeron55 RealBadAngel: it doesn't matter in practice because the copyright could refer to anything, even only the cover art
16:48 RealBadAngel i see
16:48 xyz yeah, I'm not sure about openttd too, isn't it a hardcore thing with lots of micro-management?
16:48 celeron55 it probably has less kids for sure
16:49 celeron55 but, like, it's the closest that things get to minetest
16:49 celeron55 it also has a similarly sized playerbase
16:50 xyz sfan5: if you want monies you can try making minetestserver-as-a-service I think
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16:50 sfan5 xyz: I am not out for monies
16:50 xyz and oversell and charge 0.99$ per month
16:50 celeron55 even if you're only after "something that is self-sustainable", that's a relatively good idea
16:51 celeron55 it's not really interesting though
16:53 iqualfragile_ there is tuxcart, if you want to maximize the amount of kids playing it
16:56 iqualfragile_ what do you think about adding some kind of archivement system to minetest_game? It would have multiple positive effects: 1. people get motivated to play 2. if done right it can serve as some kind of tutorial
16:56 iqualfragile_ additionally some of the fanart could be put into a gallery and then be unlocked by archiving archivements
16:58 sfan5 >additionally some of the fanart could be put into a gallery and then be unlocked by archiving archivements
16:58 sfan5 no, just no
16:58 domtron OpenTTD is awesome, however it suffers, like many FOSS games, from lack of content. (I'm < 30 yrs old ;) )
16:59 domtron there are several mods that implement achievements.
17:00 celeron55 achievements are probably the dumbest game idea ever
17:00 iqualfragile_ sfan5: why?
17:01 celeron55 it's like "look, this game sucks but you can force yourself to play it by trying to unlock these short sentences"
17:01 sfan5 I don't like it when games try to attract people to doing things by unlocking fanart
17:01 sfan5 I think that is stupid
17:02 iqualfragile_ ok, understandable possition
17:03 iqualfragile_ additonally it would be a bit unclean to implement
17:03 domtron personally I don't like them either, but many people do because it gives them bragging rights and a sense of... well you know.
17:05 domtron iqualfragile_: Your idea would be good for someone building a game but it should not be integrated into the engine. The game maker could commission the art an give codes to unlock them on their website.
17:05 domtron an >> and*
17:05 iqualfragile_ urgh
17:06 iqualfragile_ s/an >> and\*/s\/an\/and\//
17:08 xyz i bet people who're writing these sed commands are feeling so smart every time
17:08 spillz Kids as the target audience is precisely why mobile is the ideal place to experiment with a pay model. I have kids and pretty regularly pay a couple of bucks for games. The payment system is already set up through the app store which makes it easy and familiar for parents to approve and pay.
17:08 domtron heh, practicing regexes :P
17:09 iqualfragile_ why would he pipe the output of an into a file called and?
17:10 domtron stupidity >.< :P
17:10 domtron bye... for now
17:11 iqualfragile_ on another notice: ther are currently 86 pull requests open for minetest
17:11 iqualfragile_ it would realy be great if this number could be reduced by 70
17:12 iqualfragile_ can you guys try to find some day of the week where most have a bit time to spare to regularly review those pull requests?
17:13 iqualfragile_ darkrose, hmmmm, sfan5, RealBadAngel ShadowNinja which day of the week fits best for you?
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17:28 iqualfragile_ such response
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17:32 celeron55 wtf
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17:33 celeron55 why is there no documentation available anywhere for register_biome?
17:33 celeron55 is it still considered so unstable that not even a line of documentation was written anywhere?
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17:43 sfan5 iqualfragile_: any day odf the weekend
17:51 Calinou <domtron> OpenTTD is awesome, however it suffers, like many FOSS games, from lack of content. (I'm < 30 yrs old ;) )
17:51 Calinou from ugliness*
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17:55 proller <30 years old peoples detected ^
17:56 VanessaE I'm late to the discussion but the copyright of the cover art, I dunno if that's valid or not....  it's basically my screenshot from my texture pack test track (with the default textures)...
17:57 VanessaE (and I don't remember what the original license was for those shots)
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18:19 sapier https://gist.github.com/sapier/9745980 ShadowNinja I've copied your issues to gist so everyone else can add comments to it too
18:19 sapier some of your issues are quite hard to fix others are no problem
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18:28 iqualfragile_ PilzAdam: which day of the week would be best for you?
18:28 iqualfragile_ sapier: which day of the week would be best for you?
18:29 sapier ?
18:29 sapier for what?
18:29 sapier sorry didn't read log today
18:29 iqualfragile_ there are tons of pull request open for minetest (86 iicc)
18:29 sapier argh :-)
18:29 PenguinDad <iqualfragile_> can you guys try to find some day of the week where most have a bit time to spare to regularly review those pull requests?
18:29 PenguinDad ^ sapier
18:30 ShadowNinja Saturday is usually best for me.
18:30 sapier thanks ... maybe we should just start commenting the pull requests
18:30 sapier that's what github is for
18:30 iqualfragile_ yes, that would be the plan
18:30 PilzAdam <celeron55>  is it still considered so unstable that not even a line of documentation was written anywhere? <- basically: yes
18:31 iqualfragile_ just take 10 pull requests per week and either merge, close or comment on them
18:31 iqualfragile_ well, would need to be a bit more at the begining because lots piled up
18:31 iqualfragile_ but that way new contributors would quickly recieve feedback and be motivated to continue
18:32 iqualfragile_ (and minetest development would be speeded up)
18:32 sapier I suggest starting commenting right now instead of discussing when to do it
18:32 PilzAdam iqualfragile_, the proller answer would be: 29th of february
18:33 iqualfragile_ finding a regular date is essential in my opinion
18:34 iqualfragile_ i think that the problem is that nobody on here realy feels entiteled to merge or care for the pull requests, so haing a timeframe where all/most of the core devs are online would help greatly
18:34 iqualfragile_ s/haing/having
18:35 proller i can close my last pull..
18:35 iqualfragile_ sapier/ShadowNinja: shaders work for me
18:35 sapier on android?
18:36 ShadowNinja iqualfragile_: On android?
18:36 iqualfragile_ oh, this is for android, sorry
18:36 sapier yes question is if the shader config should be enabled on android or not
18:38 iqualfragile_ while they might work i doubt they make sense because android is quite weak
18:38 iqualfragile_ well, the hardware android usually runs on that is
18:39 sapier hardware is gonna get faster quite quick so if there's a chance they're gonna work in a year I see no reason to disable the setting now
18:39 sapier they're disabled by default anyway
18:44 sfan5 sapier: I don't think GLSL for GLES is that good yet
18:45 sfan5 we should really get GLESv2 to work
18:45 sapier well it's not about what is standard, non npot2 textures aren't part of ogles1 too but there are devices out there which support it
18:46 sapier glesv2 is a n irrlicht issue if irrlicht is fixed we've got gles2 support
18:49 sapier did anyone check the formspec based deathscreen by now?
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18:56 sfan5 [!] merging #1185 now
18:56 ShadowBot sfan5: Error: ProcessTimeoutError: Process #19 (for String.re) aborted due to timeout.
18:56 xyz celeron55: http://irc.minetest.ru/min​etest/2014-02-26#i_3598517
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19:12 celeron55 xyz: and?
19:13 xyz celeron55: the community is kinda shit
19:14 celeron55 well generally nobody in this world understands licenses, why didn't anyone tell them it doesn't violate anything
19:14 celeron55 oh, because of that i guess
19:15 celeron55 well whatever, i don't care as long as they don't insult and DoS people and stuff
19:15 xyz they did
19:15 celeron55 that i already saw
19:15 celeron55 or is there more?
19:16 xyz there's too much
19:16 celeron55 well what can we do
19:17 celeron55 make the next release of the game tell people out loud how LGPL works?
19:17 celeron55 maybe not
19:17 xyz have proper moderators on forum and IRC
19:17 xyz it could've been stopped
19:17 xyz remove improper moderators
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19:19 celeron55 well who is proper and who is improper?
19:21 celeron55 people who understand licenses really well aren't the kind of people who like to be moderators
19:21 celeron55 and even if we found one, he wouldn't be online at the moment when some kids go crazy
19:21 PilzAdam I think that its not really about licenses, but people recieving money for nothing
19:22 sapier that's why I'm doing the andorid port efforts once we've got our own port in there it's users problem if they download bogus versions
19:22 xyz PilzAdam: stop trying to defend your actions
19:22 celeron55 i think the only thing we can practically do is make a new post in the news section that discusses this topic
19:23 PilzAdam xyz, stop stating your opinion
19:23 celeron55 maybe some of the kids trust authority like that
19:25 celeron55 or alternatively a wiki page that people can link to others when discussions like that happen
19:26 celeron55 this is a complete text for such: https://www.softwarefreedom.org/re​sources/2008/compliance-guide.html
19:27 celeron55 which nobody will read because it is long because it contains almost every detail
19:29 xyz celeron55: Calinou, for example, was acting properly on IRC
19:31 sapier imho  we coult take a lot of power fron these discussion if we did speedup our porting efforts
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19:31 xyz right
19:31 sapier I suggest working towards a combined 0.4.10 + android release till end of april
19:31 celeron55 xyz: i don't consider this worth spending time on; if someone has direct suggestions for what i should do, then tell
19:31 xyz good luck with that
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19:32 PilzAdam sapier, wait another month for 0.4.10?!
19:32 celeron55 more like release 0.4.10 now that we don't have the android problems in upstream
19:32 sapier we need to check and test all thos changes resulting from android port and I don't think it'd be wise to run branches
19:32 celeron55 then after that it's a clean table for those problems
19:33 proller whats new in  0.4.10 exept shaders ?
19:33 sapier some of the problems I fixed for android ar problems/issues in master too
19:33 celeron55 some mod api stuff and bugfixes
19:38 sapier one of the main problems is still that crash on async with luajit ... I'm not sure but I'd not be surprised if it'd be same unaligned memory access causing crash on android
19:38 sapier it does only happen on very new distributions
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19:50 ShadowNinja #123
19:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/123 -- crashes after about 10 seconds on game start
19:51 ShadowNinja That timeout error is fixed now.
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19:56 celeron55 gah
19:56 celeron55 this is annoying
19:56 celeron55 when i start typing a command from the game starting with /, the player flies down
19:56 celeron55 because it involves pressing shift
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19:57 celeron55 wait, i mean that even if i do it from the chatbox that is already open
19:57 celeron55 this is probably some regression caused by sapier's gui stuff
19:58 celeron55 sapier: can you fix it?
19:58 celeron55 or, well, you absolutely have to
19:58 sapier I'll fix it
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20:15 sapier celeron what's wrong with /?
20:19 sapier I've just downloaded latest master there it dosn't happen for me ... I know starting a command with / before did behave that way and it doesn't happen for me anytime now
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20:45 celeron55 what can i say?
20:45 celeron55 it happens to me all the time
20:47 spillz Someone should lock that globeminner thread. add a post to the end saying "no mas" and ban anyone who tries to continue it. Someone should email or pm the guy to resolve whatever differences need to be resolved - which I gather is mostly his copyright violation of the artwork- and all go their own way. If it were my site I would have banned anyone advocating griefing etc... It's all very childish and reflects badly on the site and the game.
20:47 sfan5 >and ban anyone who tries to continue it
20:48 sfan5 ban *@* I guess
20:48 sfan5 there seem to be no issues left with copyright
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20:50 sapier can someone try to verify celerons issues ... according to code movement is disabled once a menu is shown ... this hasn't changed in my code ... i tested master celeron did you try on android?
20:52 sapier celeron55 your system is to fast ;-)
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20:55 sapier celeron55 you should fly down in pause menu too is this true?
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21:15 celeron55 hmm, now i don't know what i was talking about, i can't reproduce it anymore
21:16 celeron55 wtf... well whatever
21:19 domtron I was playing around with table formspecs and rubenwardy smartfs which crashed minetest. I'm fairly certain it has nouthing to do with smartfs but I heven't tried just using show formspec for a table. Should I post a topic on the bug forum or modding general?
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21:19 domtron nothing *
21:26 sapier domtron: please post on github if possible
21:28 domtron are there guidlines somewhere?
21:29 sapier sure but it's as everywhere, exact version, logs, description what you did to cause the bug
21:29 domtron ok thanks
21:35 specing sfan5: how come?
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