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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-01-19

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Time Nick Message
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04:13 hmmmm hey guys, realtalk
04:14 hmmmm is the current mapgen v7 used widely enough in mods and everything that a modification, even though it's considered unstable right now, would be disasterous?
04:16 iqualfragile hmmmm: i just know a single mod using it: snow, but my knowledge might be incomplete
04:16 iqualfragile and everybody considers it unstable as far as i know
04:17 iqualfragile aah, wait, nodetopia by pilzadam uses it, too
04:17 hmmmm alright, good
04:17 hmmmm ugh
04:17 iqualfragile but he wont mind rewriting
04:17 hmmmm I don't know who the hell figured it'd be a good idea to put the mapgen chooser in the world create dialog but it shouldn't be there
04:17 iqualfragile especialy if it would otherwise hold back an important change
04:17 iqualfragile indeed
04:17 iqualfragile what changes do you plan on?
04:17 hmmmm especially when half of the mapgens there are experimental or otherwise not intended for end users
04:17 iqualfragile (differential mapgen plz)
04:17 hmmmm what?
04:18 iqualfragile well, generating map on block load, saving changes
04:18 hmmmm that has nothing to do with the mapgen, that has to do with the emergemanager
04:19 iqualfragile absolutely, still: what changes you you plan on?
04:19 hmmmm i want to finish up what I started to work on before I got bored with minetest for a while
04:19 hmmmm basically
04:19 iqualfragile ok
04:19 iqualfragile i am realy quite sure pilzadam wont mind
04:19 hmmmm I want to make the 3d terrain smaller, make everything more buildable
04:20 iqualfragile or just start v8^^
04:20 hmmmm i already have a 3d gaussian blur routine
04:20 hmmmm that would make a cool post-processing step, like an mapgen flag
04:20 iqualfragile s/smaller/smoother ?
04:21 iqualfragile ah, you meant smaller
04:21 hmmmm the 3d terrain right now is too vast
04:21 hmmmm I just want the 3d features to be of higher quality but smaller
04:21 iqualfragile yes, sounds logical
04:21 hmmmm or at least for there to be wider variance
04:22 iqualfragile sounds good
04:22 iqualfragile but could you not just downscale the perlin noise a bit? (it does use that doesnt it?)
05:33 hmmmm 'downscale'?
05:34 ShadowNinja noiseparams.scale -= x
05:34 hmmmm a lot of these problems are more complex than you probably anticipate
05:36 hmmmm already all of the noiseparams have been modified
05:36 hmmmm (by the way, obviously the current mapgen v7 algorithm could produce nicer terrain but you'd have to play around with the noiseparams to find settings that you personally like)
05:37 hmmmm I've had the octaves for 3d mountain terrain increased and increased the scale a little, that helps the terrain look more interesting but crazier
05:37 hmmmm for my own personal use
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05:39 hmmmm what i'm essentially doing is fixing the 2d base terrain to produce better results that reflect what it's supposed to be doing in the first place, and then i switched the linear 3d gradient for a cubic one and fiddled with more parameters
05:39 hmmmm the mapgen is so time intensive, you can blow literally all day tuning parameters
05:40 hmmmm but my intended result is to have 3d noise mountains that "cut off" sharper (hence the cubic gradient) and therefore have less variable terrain on the top of them instead of coming to peaks and such
05:52 nore hmmmm, do you think param2 getters and setters should be added to LuaVM?
05:56 hmmmm nore, i don't think so.
05:56 nore why?
05:56 hmmmm setting a param2 for a node is such a special case that i don't believe special provisions should be made for it.
05:56 nore at least, getting it
05:57 hmmmm the point of the lua vm is to set nodes in bulk, and if you need to set parameters in bulk like that then something is broken with your approach
05:57 nore (for example, for doing a circuit simulator in Lua....)
05:57 hmmmm what's wrong with get_node?
05:57 nore hmmmm, yes, but also to read the map fast, isn't it?
05:57 nore get_node is slow
05:57 hmmmm have you tested it?
05:58 hmmmm get_node is faster for a small number of nodes
05:58 nore yep... when it comes to thousands of nodes, it is far slower than VM
05:58 hmmmm ask sapier, he tried out using voxelmanip for checking the radius of light
05:58 nore and?
05:58 hmmmm and it ended up being much slower until he had to set above 10k nodes
05:58 hmmmm then the LVM started winning out
05:59 hmmmm LVM is made for doing things in *BULK*
05:59 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Can you check #1061?
05:59 hmmmm it's not some sort of silver bullet that speeds up any access
05:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1061 -- Crash with no error message with `minetest.place_schematic` and table schematic specifier.
05:59 hmmmm odd
06:00 hmmmm i'll take a look
06:00 hmmmm ahhh
06:00 hmmmm i never set a slice probability from the table
06:16 proller hmmmm, adjustable heat/humid....
06:18 nore hmmmm, about VM vs. get_node: even on 1k nodes, VM wins
06:19 nore VM: 0.0010080337524414 get_node: 0.0016880035400391
06:21 ShadowNinja Just out of curiosity, how long does set_node take comparatively?
06:21 hmmmm set_node is much much slower
06:22 hmmmm proller:  MT sucks you said, change it yourself :p
06:22 hmmmm nore:  interesting, sapier's implementation must've been flawed somehow
06:23 proller remove rollback,send event, lighting  from set_node - and it wil be much much faster
06:24 nore VM: 0.0011730194091797 set_node: 0.0013530254364014
06:24 nore ^ 1k nodes, the VM had to load the area and read it, set_node didn't read anything
06:25 hmmmm yeah but set_node still needs to emerge the block it's in
06:25 nore VM wins anyway
06:25 hmmmm it's just that you don't see that detail
06:25 hmmmm the way i see it is
06:25 hmmmm things are fine the way they are
06:25 nore hmmmm: the block is already emerged by VM right before, am I wrong?
06:25 hmmmm set_node and get_node are good for things that you don't really do a lot of
06:26 hmmmm set_node's speed is irrelevant because the only time you'd be setting nodes in bulk you'd have a good use case for lvm so everything's basically covered
06:26 hmmmm if somebody can make the case to me why there needs to be a param2 bulk set/get, i'd add it
06:26 hmmmm I mean I suppose it should be there just for instruction orthogonality ubt
06:26 hmmmm but
06:27 hmmmm set_node doesn't use a VoxelManipulator at all
06:27 nore hmmmm, mesecons circuits... (my last one is 200k nodes...)
06:27 hmmmm the whole point is that the api should be tiny
06:27 hmmmm smaller than it is right now anyway
06:27 nore and even 10k wires turning on/off is slow
06:28 hmmmm i really hate adding more stuff
06:34 nore btw: I found what was slow in meta_set_nodedef, no idea about how to avoid that though: https://github.com/Novatux/minetest/blob/me​ta_set_nodedef_3/src/mapblock_mesh.cpp#L422#L424
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06:37 hmmmm i see
06:37 hmmmm should ask celeron what the rationale for that code is
06:37 hmmmm it really does seem useless at first glance
06:38 nore from what I've seen, it inserts custom node definitions in that MeshGameDef
06:38 nore and then uses those to display the modified nodes
06:39 hmmmm ah, setSpecial
06:39 ShadowNinja hmmmm: So, can you push a fix to that place_schematic issue?
06:40 hmmmm maybe
06:41 hmmmm oh nore this is the bvkl thing
06:41 hmmmm how necessary is it really
06:41 hmmmm please don't break anything
06:41 nore hmmmm, no, I have deleted BKVL
06:41 hmmmm and what's the point of this branch anyway?
06:41 ShadowNinja I hope that isn't the same maybe as a certain someone else...  ;-)
06:41 ShadowNinja of*
06:42 nore making meta_set_nodedef work... or will there be another way of making custom node visuals?
06:43 hmmmm what is that exactly?
06:43 hmmmm nobody explained it
06:43 hmmmm that's a proller-tier commit message:  "Something"
06:44 ShadowNinja You can set node def in meta (textures, nodeboxes) so, eg, mesecons would be one node.
06:45 ShadowNinja Another way to do it would be to have a variation number or similar.  I think MineCraft does that.
06:46 hmmmm minecraft has a bigger param2 and varies things based on that
06:46 nore ShadowNinja, perhaps a special param2 then?
06:46 hmmmm but that's not really too hard since mapnodes in minecraft are 8 bytes instead of 4
06:46 nore so you could have 256 nodedefs packed into one
06:47 hmmmm having an entire nodedef inside of a metadata thing
06:47 hmmmm which effectively makes each node potentially unique
06:47 ShadowNinja I don't like how you can only have 256 variations, and it rules out facedir and family.
06:47 hmmmm i suppose that's quite powerful
06:47 hmmmm no
06:47 hmmmm facedir only takes up 5 bits, you have 3 left
06:48 nore the idea would be perhaps to have only additional def in meta, and use the basedef for the other things
06:48 ShadowNinja Yay! 8 variations!
06:48 hmmmm nore:  honestly the problem you were pointing out is inevitable now that I understand what it's doing
06:49 nore hmmmm, from what I understand, it copies the whole registered nodedefs.... maybe there would be a way to avoid that
06:49 hmmmm it should only copy the nodedef that it's modifying
06:49 nore (perhaps using content_ids > MAX_REGISTERED_CONTENT, that would be looked up in another table)
06:49 hmmmm erm, not nodedef
06:50 hmmmm ContentFeatures
06:50 ShadowNinja +field
06:50 hmmmm the way you fix this is by changing the big contentfeatures array to an array of pointers to contentfeatures
06:50 hmmmm this is a huuuuge change though fyi
06:50 hmmmm huge as in a lot of infrastructure is changed, but you'd only need to modify mapnode.cpp and friends
06:54 hmmmm nore:  my point is that this is going to be slow because now you have to check metadata for the presense of a custom contentfeatures every single time it's drawn which is slow on its own
06:55 hmmmm but the real nail in the coffin to your branch is, yeah, the fact that m_content_features is a vector of ContentFeatures, not ContentFeatures *.
06:55 nore hmmmm, it looks like it doesn't do that, and that the nodes that have to be custom are somehow stored somewhere
06:55 hmmmm nore:  how do you know that?
06:55 hmmmm er rather, how do you not know how this works for sure?  you're dealing with it
06:55 nore &block->m_special_nodedefs;
06:56 hmmmm ahh
06:56 nore and I don't know the code well, I only rebased it yesterday...
06:56 hmmmm so I guess per block there's a map of nodes that have special nodedefs
06:57 hmmmm that's not as bad, but still, it's not as good.  this whole thing is speed critical code and you do 5000 std::map lookups which honestly aren't the fastest thing ever, and so on
06:57 hmmmm not you, i mean the guy who made this code in the first place
06:57 hmmmm the inefficiency is baked in so hard that the only reason why minetest is playable is because it just so happens that today's processors are beyond amazing
06:57 nore tell that to celeron55... ;)
06:59 hmmmm so nore, do you understand what you need to do in order to get your branch working the right way?
06:59 nore I'm trying to do that...
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07:05 nore https://github.com/Novatux/minetest/blob/me​ta_set_nodedef_3/src/mapblock_mesh.cpp#L59 <-- I just noticed that... well, it does not copy the whole array in fact
07:06 hmmmm ahh... then that doesn't really explain the slowness
07:07 hmmmm at least it doesn't do something stupid like copy the entire array over.. but i wouldn't put it past people to add in stuff like that "as a quick and dirty proof of concept"
07:07 hmmmm *cough* node groups
07:08 nore ok, I have the answer now
07:09 nore hmmmm, that fixed it: https://github.com/Novatux/minetest/commit​/ad2dffa9f50a1e80a9ebfee2a0b78abe430941aa
07:10 hmmmm hahahaha.  the creation of the object itself is what's so slow because this branch is old and MAX_REGISTERED_CONTENT used to be not that enormous before.
07:11 nore yep...
07:12 nore so we only need to add a MAX_META_CONTENT, and it will work fine
07:12 hmmmm now, each MeshNodeDefManager is specific to a MapBlock right?
07:12 nore yep... (and just tested, now if I go above 10 modified nodes, segfault...)
07:13 hmmmm which means the size of that array would need to be min(MAX_REGISTERED_CONTENT + 1, MAP_BLOCKSIZE * MAP_BLOCKSIZE * MAP_BLOCKSIZE)
07:13 nore hmmmm, that makes 4096, so only 1/8th of before
07:13 hmmmm you should make that a ContentFeatures vector
07:15 nore with 4096, the lag is noticeable, but far better than before
07:15 nore hmmmm, how does vector work?
07:15 hmmmm what?  you don't know how to use a std::vector?
07:16 hmmmm are you sure you're qualified to be writing C++?
07:16 nore I know how to use it a bit... I know C++, but not all data structures...
07:17 hmmmm you should read this http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/vector/vector/
07:17 hmmmm and take a look at the current nodedef.cpp
07:17 nore I am currently reading it...
07:19 ShadowNinja Anyone know why vector?  Why not dynarray or something that actually sounds like what it is?
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07:41 nore ah, a last question: where should the maximum number of nodes that can be defined in meta be defined?
07:46 hmmmm i don't feel like you should need to define a maximum, but i would say in node_with_def.h?
07:49 nore hm.... ok, removed that maximum (it was MAP_BLOCKSIZE^3 anyway)
07:50 nore anyway, it looks like it works well now
07:51 nore (however, there are a few things left to do)
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11:45 VanessaE um, wut?
11:45 VanessaE terminate called after throwing an instance of 'SerializationError'
11:45 VanessaE what():  String too long for serializeString
11:45 VanessaE /home/minetest/Scripts/minetestserver-creative.sh: line 26:  7866 Aborted
11:47 VanessaE the last few things the log shows are a bunch of undefined entities (from having removed the MOBF mod some time ago), and a user digging and placing some routine, ordinary items such as homedecor fences, stone, etc.
11:49 nore VanessaE, what are the mods in the last lines?
11:50 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6779504/
11:50 nore ...
11:51 specing strings have to be serialized? WTF?
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11:52 VanessaE so homedecor, default, and mesecons are represented there.
11:56 VanessaE I guess mesecons uses some meta in its nodes, but the user reports not having powered that node on, and it works fine elsewhere, so that's not it.
11:57 nore VanessaE, the meta used in mesecons is very limited
11:57 nore and you'd need a very full meta to have problems, I have done meta that contained serveral KB without problem
11:58 nore the limit must be something like 0x10000
11:58 VanessaE ok, well then full meta isn't likely the issue here unless the actual server code glitched out
11:59 nore if(plain.size() > 65535)
11:59 nore throw SerializationError("String too long for serializeString");
11:59 nore ^ util/serialize.cpp
12:11 VanessaE too bad it didn't bother to print some kind of minimal backtrace :-/
12:13 VanessaE that by the way was one of those "not logged" errors - it was caught by the extra ">" redirect.
12:15 VanessaE (I keep debug.txt, and also redirect stderr+stdout to a separate file so I can catch such errors)
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13:09 VanessaE question:
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13:10 VanessaE the problem that the bees mod had with the particle spawners it was using, causing horrible fps dropouts with even a few particles (20-30)...was that ever fixed?
13:10 VanessaE was that an engine problem or a mod problem?
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13:48 sfan5 which section does #1110 belong to?
13:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1110 -- Include system info in the HTTP user agent on Windows by sfan5
13:55 nore sfan5, any thoughts on https://github.com/Novatux/min​etest/tree/meta_set_nodedef_4 ?
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14:23 sfan5 nore: what is that supposed to be used for?
14:24 nore changing the visuals of a node through its metadata
14:25 VanessaE sfan5: imagine defining a single "stair" model that a thousand different textures could be applied to.
14:25 sfan5 ah
14:25 VanessaE one node definition, a thousand different appearances.
14:25 sfan5 also what is with the 3rd and 4th param to set_node_with_meta
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14:25 nore VanessaE, or a single node to which you could apply different nodeboxes
14:25 VanessaE now extend that to the 30 or so different shapes that Moreblocks+Stairsplus has
14:26 VanessaE nore yes, that too
14:26 VanessaE sfan5: as nore implies, pipes, tubes, mesecons wires - one wire nodedef, hundreds of different models
14:26 VanessaE (one pipe-, one tube-, etc etc
14:26 VanessaE )
14:27 sfan5 yeah, but what are the 3rd and 4th params
14:27 sfan5 4th is the nodedef, but what is the 3rd param?
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14:33 nore sfan5, IIRC 3rd param is base_nodedef, and 4th is what is added to it
14:33 sfan5 that should go to lua_api
14:33 sfan5 .txt
14:34 nore yes, I know... it is not ready for merging
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17:02 Megaf start your server with server_announce = 0
17:03 Megaf then log in to your server and do /set server_announce = 1
17:03 Megaf that wont work
17:03 Megaf then turn your server off
17:03 Megaf and change server_announce back to = 1
17:03 Megaf start your server
17:03 Megaf it will not announce anymore
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17:07 blaaaaargh ...
17:15 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Now update the changelog.  :-)
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17:43 PilzAdam hmmmm, dont worry about Nodetopia when changing the API
17:43 hmmmm api?
17:45 PilzAdam I thought you wanted to change the biome API or so, because you asked if mods already use it
17:46 hmmmm no no I'm changing the terrain
17:46 hmmmm so any maps currently using nodetopia are screwed up
17:47 hmmmm what I feared was that too many people are using v7 now
17:47 PilzAdam Nodetopia isnt release yet, so go ahead
17:47 hmmmm also, do people like the current v7 terrain?
17:47 hmmmm i don't
17:47 hmmmm it has charm to it, but it's not technically good
17:48 PilzAdam I would prefere more "interesting" terrain
17:49 PilzAdam by "interesting" I mean more rough terrain, mountains being closer to each other etc.
17:52 PilzAdam its currently rather boring to explore the terrain in v7
17:54 ShadowNinja The rivers are a big improvement, but I'd like more mounains.
17:55 PilzAdam the rivers are more like ravines, since they cut through the terrain
17:57 ShadowNinja Hmmm, yes, I suppose they are.  Regular rivers would also be good.
17:58 PilzAdam the current rivers wouldnt be a problem in the mapgen I imagine, but they dont fit the current one
17:59 PilzAdam btw, a way to change the noise params in on_mapgen_init() would be nice
18:02 ShadowNinja hmmmm: You should create http://dev.minetest.net/mine​test.register_on_mapgen_init .
18:16 Sokomine hmm. it's quite impractical that formspec labels cannot exceed a certain length. textareas may work, but they're not really optimal for non-input messages
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18:18 Sokomine regarding mapgen: it would be best to have some "boring" areas (=nicely flat or with soft hills) for building, and some rough terrain in other parts of the map. i havn't tried v7 yet. last i kneew it did only stone?
18:20 PilzAdam Sokomine, IMO these flat areas are very boring; if you need place to build then you can always do landscaping
18:22 Exio4 landscaping looks ugly in a very "rough" terrain
18:23 Sokomine pilzadam: hm. perhaps it's because i prefer to use many mods that add tons of nature (like in the eden game). with those, even flat areas may look great
18:24 PilzAdam Exio4, it shouldnt be very rough; the challenge is to find the right roughness so that it looks interesting while still having areas that are easy to landspace
18:24 Exio4 yeah
18:24 PilzAdam eh, -typo
18:25 PilzAdam Sokomine, that might be true; I use a game that only has full cubes
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19:12 hmmmm ShadowNinja, I documented mapgen param setting on the wiki.
19:14 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Can you document minetest.register_on_mapgen_init on the dev wiki?
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19:16 hmmmm no
19:16 ShadowNinja hmmmm: No?  Why not?
19:16 hmmmm cause it's already done somewhere else
19:23 ShadowNinja Well, it should be documented on the dev wiki.  If it isn't updated then it becomes pointless to have it.
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20:31 hmmmm well it's in the lua_api.txt
20:31 hmmmm also it's present on the wiki in the mapgen param setting page
20:32 VanessaE but...but.... it's not in a dozen other places also
20:32 VanessaE :)
20:32 hmmmm if you're telling me that i absolutely must do this, i might remind you that I'm getting paid exactly $0 for this so you're getting your money's worth
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22:17 PilzAdam typo fix: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commi​t/4585e855a7fe63f4b820d7551a39ac9825b4cb1d
22:17 PilzAdam pushing in a few minutes
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