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IRC log for #minetest-delta, 2012-07-12

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05:29 noob whats this for?
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18:01 Taoki Hi
18:02 Taoki Although I asked on #minetest, I thought to ask here too: Does anyone have any news as to when support for 3D players / mobs will be up? Especially using 3D skeletal meshes, but even the new nodeboxes system for blocky ones
18:02 Taoki I'm really interested in this, and I'm seeing a lot of other people are... but so far no news
18:04 darkrose celeron keeps saying it won't happen
18:04 Anchakor I guess nobody C++ competent is
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18:04 Taoki :(
18:04 Taoki Everyone wants it to happen I think
18:04 Anchakor not me
18:05 darkrose Anchakor: it's not that, celeron just doesn't want it
18:05 Taoki I must admit celeron is hard to understand sometimes. Even if he's doing everything well and all
18:05 Anchakor don't make me grep my logs for him saying he wouldn't mind if someone implemented that
18:05 Taoki Maybe someone will make a branch or fork with support for this in the meantime then
18:06 Taoki ah
18:06 Taoki If he said that then it is ok
18:06 Anchakor he might not include it in his version of the game, but that is fine
18:06 Taoki I do remember he saying that he wants sprites and not 3D models... but that was long ago (about 2 years, when MineTest was in its first months of existence)
18:06 Taoki yeah
18:06 Anchakor he just doesn't want to work on it and work on maintaining it
18:07 Taoki I'm also not saying it must happen for MineTest game. Just adding the ability to the engine for custom games
18:07 * Taoki nods
18:07 darkrose the problem with it is that with models coming from different people it'd be near impossible to maintain a consistant art style
18:07 Taoki I really wish I could do it, but I'm barely learning C++ and understanding the code :(
18:08 darkrose especially if you then end up with a mix of 3d and 2d, it'll just make the game look messy
18:08 Taoki darkrose: Well the same could be said about textures and sounds. Support in the engine is needed for them... otherwise people choose what they do
18:08 Taoki I do agree with that
18:09 Taoki But that's the game creator's job to take care of
18:09 Taoki minetest_game might not have 3D at all or for a long time. But I'm quite eager to use it in custom games, once MT is more complete so I can try to put some of my plans in existence
18:09 darkrose it's a lot easier to make consistant texture packs than models
18:11 Taoki Yeah. But still, without some 3D model support things won't get too far. I tried the sprite-based players and mobs (such as the animals mod) but no matter how good the sprite is, it looks horrible and very fake for me. I could never play a MC clone like that permanently (in most ways at least)
18:12 Taoki Well Infiniminer was like that too... but I never played that either. Doubt I would have liked it that much
18:14 darkrose I experimented with some 3d mobs the other day, so it's doable, but not that big of a thing next to other stuff that needs doing
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18:21 Taoki darkrose: Oh? I'm curous how you managed to do them. Nodeboxes?
18:22 darkrose http://stuff.ltmnet.com/images/mt/3d-mobs.png
18:22 darkrose yeah, kinda basic, but they work
18:22 Taoki I like. Not the best model but still
18:23 Taoki Can I ask more details? Like, first off are they animated? And have you posted the script anywhere so others can try it?
18:24 darkrose https://github.com/darkrose/m​inetest_mods/tree/master/mobs
18:24 darkrose they're not really animated, but they move around a bit, run away if you hit them, etc
18:24 Taoki Nice. Thanks
18:25 Taoki Yeah, i mean if the 3D model gets animated. Mobs can already move around, like the Oteki or Rat, but is still rendered with sprites
18:26 NakedFury we need that in the game
18:26 Anchakor still all that would look like shit with no shadows and lightning model
18:27 Taoki Still better than nothing
18:28 NakedFury exactly
18:29 NakedFury we can play around with mobs but not with shadows or lightning model
18:29 ironzorg oerrki
18:30 NakedFury 3d models that can be animated
18:30 NakedFury and blocks that can be animated too
18:31 Taoki I think 3D mobs are more important. Not even MC has 3D shadows, but for MT I do support such a feature
18:31 Taoki Until then however, I think having 3D mosbs is the next step forward
18:34 VanessaE one thing c55 did say as I recall is he doesn't want 3d mobs to look minecraftish i.e. boxy
18:34 Taoki That would be hard not to do. Since you'd need high-poly models in a blocky environment with 8-bit textures
18:35 Taoki Might not fit very well
18:35 Taoki Still, if they look good, sure
18:35 VanessaE not everyone uses the grainy pixely textures ;-)
18:35 NakedFury no but they still need to fit
18:35 NakedFury it would look weird to have Gears of Wars models in minetest enviroment
18:35 NakedFury extremely
18:36 VanessaE heh
18:36 VanessaE so make 'em so they can be adapted with some kind of custom skin or whatever
18:36 Taoki I support the use of high-res textures in custom games otherwise
18:37 Taoki One of my plans is actually making a game of high quality, like with high-poly models and high-res textures. But that would also require a terrain block smoothing feature, which i discussed in the past
18:37 Taoki i doubt that will ever get done
18:37 * VanessaE used her 512px photorealistic textures. :-)
18:37 VanessaE uses
18:37 NakedFury adding ramps?
18:37 Taoki so that placed dirt blocks won't stay blocks, but create a smooth surface
18:37 Taoki Yes, hold on
18:38 Taoki http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=28827 This
18:38 VanessaE so the high-res textures are a done deal
18:38 Taoki VanessaE: There's anoother problem (and feature request) with high-res textures I believe
18:39 Taoki Textures are mapped 1 x 1 on the surface of each block. That can be too repetitive in some cases
18:39 VanessaE high-poly models doesn't have to mean thousands of.  12 polys makes a cuboid, add just 8 more and you get something with an octagon cross-section, which looks a heck of a lot better than a cuboid for e.g. amn arm or leg
18:39 Taoki What would also be needed, is a block setting to map the texture at a fixed amount over the blocks, not 1 x 1 onn each block
18:39 VanessaE that would require very large texture files to support though
18:39 VanessaE like 4096 px or higher
18:39 Taoki VanessaE: By high-poly I meant the same quality a model in Unreal Tournament or Quake has (even the older ones from the early 00's)
18:39 VanessaE I assumed
18:40 Taoki 1024 x 1024 is usually more than enough
18:40 Taoki I think
18:40 VanessaE but minetest doesn't need that much detail
18:40 VanessaE in a 3d mob I mean
18:40 VanessaE lesse...
18:41 Taoki yeah. Not necessarily minetest_game, but I'd like to make custom games with that much detail
18:41 Taoki And smooth terrain, but  doubt anyone eill ever add that :(
18:41 VanessaE 20 polys per arm/leg is 80, plus about 40ish for the body makes 120, another 50-odd for the head and neck makes 170 polys.
18:41 VanessaE considering the game renders, what, tens of thousands of polys for an average world and view distance?
18:41 Anchakor Taoki: I contemplated the terrain smoothing stuff (something like marching cubes algorithm), but it is not really good
18:42 VanessaE and considering you probably won't see more than a few dozen mobs at once (think animals, lots of players), you're talking about *maybe* a 10% performance hit.
18:42 Taoki Anchakor: Did you get any code working?
18:42 VanessaE that's 3fps.  whoopdeedo.
18:42 Taoki yes, performance would likely not be a problem
18:42 Taoki I mean engines and computers those days handle dozens of models of thousands of polygons
18:43 Taoki And irrlicht is a pretty good engine IIRC
18:43 VanessaE yup
18:43 Taoki Though I still wonder how MT wuld liik like on OGRE
18:43 Taoki Since I think I tend to prefer OGRE
18:43 VanessaE OGRE?
18:43 Taoki generally
18:43 Taoki It's another rendering engine like Irrlicht
18:43 Taoki Very popular
18:43 VanessaE oh ok
18:43 VanessaE well either way
18:44 VanessaE we're not talking about a huge number of extra polys, and there are plenty of us who do decent textures to wrap the mobs in,
18:44 VanessaE and obviously someone has done the code ;-)
18:44 VanessaE so what's the hold-up now, save for c55 being stubborn?
18:44 Anchakor Taoki: nope
18:45 Anchakor Taoki: I was just looking through the algorithms and what would be possible
18:45 Taoki VanessaE: Yeah, Irrlicht already supports many model formats. MineTest probably just needs to agdd the hooks to render them in-game
18:45 Taoki Anchakor: Ah, ok
18:45 Taoki Shame since that feature would have been amazing
18:45 VanessaE so I've heard
18:46 Taoki Anchakor: Still, one might be able to at least cause some blocks to become diagonal, like water does. When placed between two blocks of thee same type
18:46 Taoki VanessaE: Yeah, that's why I find it weird too. t's probably just a few hooks that need being put in place
18:46 Taoki If I knew C++ and the MT code better I would have looked, but sadly I can't help much
18:47 Taoki What I IMAGINE is the case, is that MineTest needs to know how to address the model render function in Irrlicht (including animations), and simply position a 3D model at the location of the mob / player and the size of its bounding box
18:50 Taoki If someone with a little knowledge of the code could look into it, tha might be easy to figure out. Like I said I would if I had the skills already :/ Still, if anoyone here wants, I can at least help with testing or anything else
18:54 Anchakor Taoki: btw http://www.volumesoffun.com/polyvox-about/
18:54 Taoki Anchakor: Yes, that's the smooth terrain im thinking of (I think
18:55 Taoki I wish MineTest could have that as an optional setting for some blocks
18:55 Anchakor http://www.volumesoffun.com/phpBB3/download/file.p​hp?id=90&sid=6452d9930e0df1d13b5645c1c932640f
18:56 Taoki Yes, that
18:56 Anchakor this is how VanessaE's textures would look :) http://www.volumesoffun.com/phpBB3/download/file.p​hp?id=97&sid=6452d9930e0df1d13b5645c1c932640f
18:56 Taoki Even that would be nice
18:56 Taoki But, smoother (more subdivisions)
18:56 Taoki I wonder if it will ever happen here, this would be awesome
18:57 Taoki Not for minetest_game again, but custom games. I want one like this too
18:57 VanessaE Anchakor: ew.
18:57 VanessaE my textures look far better in practice :-)
18:58 Anchakor Taoki: problem is some nodes shouldn't be smoothed, like walls
18:59 Taoki In my case its for smooth terrain
18:59 Taoki even stone caves
19:04 Taoki If not, I might want to at least turn dirt / sand / stone into slabs in my game. So all stone and dirt blocks would be slabs, even when naturally generated
19:04 Taoki Not sure how that would look and work like. It would make hills you could walk up on without jjumping hwoever, and allow other stuff
19:04 Taoki But so far dirt / stone and biomes are still hard coded. I'm also waiting for biomes to be put into LUA so they can be customized
19:05 VanessaE actually it would look okay, as long as you can create simulated nodes for dirt <-> stone transitions and simiklar
19:05 VanessaE similar
19:06 VanessaE use 1/8 node sized blocks and I think it would look good, but it'll need a fair number of new nodes
19:07 VanessaE only problem is, you can't drop fractional items, so the user gets a whole dirt block even if they dig a block that takes only a quarter of the node :-)
19:08 Taoki You can set the dirt block to drop 2 dirt slabs instead. Or not merge slabs into blocks
19:08 Taoki Not sure if the second one is possible
19:09 VanessaE actually that's good,
19:10 VanessaE make anything less than 100% of a node drop an item that is equivalent to 1/8 of a block, as long as you can craft several together to get larger pieces, assuming you need to.
19:10 Taoki yeah
19:10 VanessaE (have it drop as many such 1/8 blocks as would be needed to build back up the piece that was digged)
19:11 Taoki But yah... I need to get back to the 3D mobs because I don't plan to start a custom game mode until I'm sure that's in :P
19:11 VanessaE heh
19:12 Taoki I might make some fun stuff when I do though, if I'll understand the LUA app well
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