| Time |
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| 01:05 |
erle |
<Krock> Intel HD (3000) is in fact capable of rendering dynamic shadows, as well as any other shaders. It just happens to be slow as hell. |
| 01:06 |
erle |
similar to my general experience with hardware that *nominally* can do opengl 2.0 or 2.1 – it's really slow on the shader codepath |
| 01:06 |
erle |
like, the i915/i945 is easily outperformed by mesa software rendering |
| 01:07 |
erle |
(if you shade enough shading) |
| 01:08 |
erle |
i think anyone who claims that the shader code path makes the game playable on hardware just because that hardware nominally supports opengl 2.0 is either lying to others or themselves. |
| 01:09 |
erle |
i have just tested something and basically on the same hardware (that nominally supports opengl 2.1) the shaderless code path has a drawtime of 6 to 8ms and the shader code path – for the same scene, no effects – has a drawtime of 60 to 70ms |
| 01:10 |
erle |
which is the difference between “playable” and “less than 15fps, into the trash it goes” |
| 01:11 |
erle |
mesa even reduced advertised opengl 2.x for some hardware (e.g. integrated intel GPUs) for such a reason https://www.phoronix.com/news/Mesa-i915-OpenGL-2-Drop |
| 01:11 |
erle |
> The reasoning for dropping from OpenGL 2.1 to OpenGL 1.4 for i915 is due to Chrome and other applications using really slow code-paths with these newer extensions available and thus provide a worse experience. |
| 01:15 |
erle |
btw, i am pretty sure 15fps is basically software rendering if your CPU is not occupied with anything else |
| 01:16 |
erle |
even for “garbage hardware” |
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Blockhead256 |
my "bouncer" is https://irc.minetest.net :P |
| 03:40 |
Blockhead256 |
forums are down again.. but before they went.. "108 guests" in the stats at the bottom of the page |
| 03:40 |
Blockhead256 |
that's definitely bad bots, right? No way 108 people were actually browsing the forums at this time of day, |
| 03:41 |
Blockhead256 |
(when the Americans are nearly all in bed and the Europeans are fast asleep, and a lot of the rest of us are at work) |
| 03:41 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> the americans aint in bed yet |
| 03:42 |
Blockhead256 |
west coasters less likely so, and of course the people who stay up to midnight or so.. plenty of people in NYC are in bed already |
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| 03:59 |
Mantar |
only 8pm here in California |
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| 04:13 |
MTDiscord |
<vejou> its 11 pm here |
| 04:14 |
MTDiscord |
<vejou> and im late time for whole country (eastern) |
| 04:14 |
Blockhead256 |
I'm glad I brought all 3 of you out to comment, but have any of you been using the forums as a guest? or is it, as I was trying to point out, bots? |
| 04:15 |
MTDiscord |
<vejou> no but i am going to bed like immediately |
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MTDiscord |
<vejou> goodnight |
| 04:25 |
Blockhead256 |
good night :) |
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Blockhead256 |
Luanti should probably move to the XDG dirs instead of continuing to pollute home directories https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15382 |
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| 05:25 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I dunno man, it's easier to type cd .minetest when you open your terminal |
| 05:26 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Plus, don't you want the user to feel at home when playing the game? |
| 05:26 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/gary-spongebob-spongebob-meme-drum-gif-13282653510173043160 |
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| 11:54 |
erle |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/15210#issuecomment-2384314803 |
| 11:54 |
erle |
> If performance with the same set of visual effects is worse with shaders enabled than with shaders disabled, please file a bug report. |
| 11:54 |
erle |
apart from the predictable response being “oh your hardware must be garbage”, i am banned from filing bug reports |
| 11:54 |
erle |
so much for that |
| 11:56 |
erle |
luatic but if you are keeping a list, the Radeon X1400 is one GPU that can do shaders and the engine unplayably slow when they are activated |
| 11:57 |
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| 12:59 |
specing |
That GPU is old enough to drink |
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| 13:31 |
ROllerozxa |
meanwhile the chromebook which I got to keep for basically free from my old school (now corebooted and runs regular linux) runs minetest perfectly fine with shaders enabled. no performance drop compared to having shaders disabled. and since it supports all the way to OpenGL 4.6 it could probably take advantage of whatever cool shader based performance improvements that may come when the shaderless codepaths can be completely axed |
| 13:32 |
erle |
ROllerozxa can you explain what about the shaderless code path inhibits performance in the shader code path to help me understand that? |
| 13:32 |
erle |
also, “making it work better on hardware i have while dropping support for hardware others have” is a bit of a myopic stance |
| 13:33 |
erle |
ROllerozxa i don't think i own a computer that can do opengl 4.6 even, are you very young? |
| 13:33 |
erle |
like, did you go to school in like the last few years? that's the better question |
| 13:35 |
specing |
Only apples are the real winners in a potato contest. |
| 13:35 |
specing |
erle: has the driver situation improved in those 19 years or is it still a disaster (blobs, proprietary init)? |
| 13:42 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1302991325875929160/Screenshot_2024-11-04_at_8.41.35_AM.png?ex=672a20bc&is=6728cf3c&hm=c4b006818700aad777e7715e67972777a67a0cd8f554f622f588df98c0c38b7f& |
| 13:42 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Reading the message in Discord, the "New message" indicator bar caused me to read "apples are the real winners in a potato contest" completely out of context. |
| 13:43 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> causing me to imagine some farmer sneaking disguised fruit into some state fair vegetable-growing contest. |
| 13:55 |
ROllerozxa |
erle: well my point is that there is a big flood of old chromebooks right now, especially ones that have dropped support from google, and IT departments just want to get rid of them through any means necessary. but any x86-based ones can be corebooted and run regular linux for anyone who needs a computer on the cheap. the specs on most chromebooks aren't very great but what they are is accessible so as long as minetest runs on these |
| 13:55 |
ROllerozxa |
, which they will do even with the shaderless pipeline dropped, then being able to play minetest remains accessible. |
| 13:55 |
ROllerozxa |
also yes I guess I am very young, 19 years old |
| 13:59 |
erle |
ROllerozxa are you saying that old chromebooks are the new “old thinkpads”? |
| 14:00 |
rubenwardy |
We absolutely won't be supporting 19 year old hardware anymore. It's not about the power of the devices, it's about the support of more modern standards that can improve performance and increase capabilities. Where we draw the line depends on what is available in different graphics specifications and how many of our users remain supported |
| 14:01 |
erle |
again, what about the shaderless code does actually inhibit making the shader code better? i mean it's not like you can have feature parity (that went out when i proposed to make shaderless shadows and it was rejected) |
| 14:03 |
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| 14:03 |
erle |
like, is that code somehow intertwined too much? |
| 14:04 |
specing |
chromebooks do not have a track record of being quality machines, rubenwardy |
| 14:04 |
specing |
ROllerozxa:* |
| 14:04 |
* specing |
prefers paying a little bit more for a used ThinkPad |
| 14:05 |
erle |
how much are used chromebooks vs used thinkpads? |
| 14:05 |
specing |
good question |
| 14:07 |
erle |
specing i have no idea about the internals of the radeon driver, but it works with debian? it needs a BIOS update though to not lock up at boot, as the driver seems to lock up the machines if the BIOS is too old |
| 14:08 |
specing |
rm -r /lib/firmware -> no driver |
| 14:10 |
erle |
specing it seems that firmware-amd-graphics is indeed non-free in debian (but redistributable obv.) |
| 14:11 |
erle |
Description-en: Binary firmware for AMD/ATI graphics chips |
| 14:11 |
erle |
it contains all the radeon blobs |
| 14:11 |
specing |
Yes |
| 14:11 |
specing |
2024 and radeons still have no drivers |
| 14:12 |
specing |
and, if you have a free bios, they don't even enumerate |
| 14:12 |
specing |
because they require running a proprietary blob on PC init |
| 14:12 |
erle |
well the solution to that is intel integrated GPU? or what? |
| 14:12 |
specing |
Yes |
| 14:13 |
specing |
up to (and perhaps including) skylake. After that, it's firmware hell just the same |
| 14:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> alternative solution: don't care |
| 14:13 |
erle |
luatic “i don't care” is the default stance |
| 14:14 |
specing |
My GMA4500XHD runs blobless, with free init |
| 14:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: and for a reason, it's a decent stance |
| 14:16 |
erle |
luatic can *you* maybe explain to me what in the fixed pipeline inhibits making the other thing bettter? like, where they are intertwined? |
| 14:16 |
specing |
minetest devs have a hidden pact with gpu manufacturers to do planned obsolescence of old hardware |
| 14:17 |
erle |
specing i think “devs tend to only care about hardware they have and sometimes they like to deprecate stuff of people they dislike” is a less conspiracy take on the situation |
| 14:18 |
erle |
specing also if that is true where is the blockchai^H^H^H AI integration? :--DDD |
| 14:18 |
erle |
can saturate much more GPUs that way!!! |
| 14:18 |
specing |
That's really odd that noone did blockchain integration yet |
| 14:18 |
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| 14:18 |
specing |
mine coins while mining nodes.. perfect combination |
| 14:19 |
erle |
i bet some assclown server owner did that already some time |
| 14:19 |
specing |
and for that you'd need to optimise the rendering so maximum resources can be devoted to crypto mining |
| 14:19 |
erle |
“install this CSM mining shitcoins while you mine nodes” |
| 14:19 |
specing |
that'll happen when SSCSMs happen |
| 14:19 |
erle |
i recently learned that when on skyblock server you share resources the cops come and threaten to grief your island. |
| 14:20 |
erle |
“don't give resources to new players”, “do not share your island” |
| 14:20 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: I can't give a comprehensive answer yet but from what I've seen so far it's largely a thing of "it lets us afford not to care about the shaderless path which makes things much simpler". It may be debatable whether we could just roughly leave the shaderless code be though it isn't always trivial. |
| 14:20 |
erle |
luatic i said before that i volunteer to keep it working (which would necessitate that it is not too much in the way of other things) |
| 14:21 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The whole modern shader pipeline thing isn't even just about performance, it's about correctness. The fix for alpha blending is well known, but only usable via shaders, and our workarounds for the legacy pipeline are incomplete, hacky, a pain in the ass to maintain, don't perform well, and are completely unrelated to the correct implementation. |
| 14:21 |
specing |
I think that banning erle is a good thing |
| 14:21 |
specing |
we need a continuation fork away from proprietaryhub |
| 14:21 |
erle |
lmao |
| 14:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> specing: weakest point in the history of points lmao |
| 14:21 |
erle |
specing has adam12345 released the minetest-but-with-irrlicht thing already? |
| 14:22 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> of all the points you could've made for what erle could do better, you chose to pick "they could migrate to a FREE git hoster!!1!" lmao |
| 14:22 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The idea of erle becoming a maintainer for a legacy-pipeline-focused fork, and allowing the core devs to focus on a shader-based pipeline ... actually sounds pretty good to me. |
| 14:22 |
specing |
erle: no idea |
| 14:22 |
erle |
Warr1024 yeah but for that you need the code to not be in the way of the core devs or else they hate it |
| 14:22 |
erle |
oh, fork |
| 14:22 |
erle |
i see |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> minetest-but-with-irrlicht sounds like a horrible idea. good luck with that. |
| 14:23 |
specing |
but we really need a strong copyleft competitor to Microsoft Luanti |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<csperson> ? |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> erle: in theory, at least for a while, it might be feasible to just merge upstream improvements that DON'T touch the renderer into a fork and remain API-compatible. |
| 14:24 |
ROllerozxa |
specing: I don't care if it is quality or not if it's a laptop with a somewhat functional battery I can carry with me and it's all I could get my hands on |
| 14:24 |
ROllerozxa |
if you care about the "quality" then you likely have the money to get yourself a "proper" computer, whatever you'd think that is |
| 14:24 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I also never throw away old hardware until it either physically breaks, or I don't have the space to use it, and I also really like having future versions of software continue to work on them indefinitely. The virtual elimination of built-in obsolescence is a feature I love from FOSS ... but it obviously has certain limitations. |
| 14:25 |
erle |
Warr1024 btw i would believe the correctness angle more if patches addressing correctness issues were appreciated more. remember the gamma discussion? or the mipmap improvements? i don't think correctness is *fun* for developers |
| 14:25 |
specing |
ROllerozxa: used thinkpads aren't that expensive, but you're unlikely to get one free |
| 14:25 |
erle |
just in case anyone now cares about gamma: https://blog.johnnovak.net/2016/09/21/what-every-coder-should-know-about-gamma/ |
| 14:25 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I've got plenty of 32-bit stuff, or stuff with tiny amounts of RAM, that are finding narrower and narrower uses as time goes on. Gaming is one of the first things I tend to lose and have to move to newer hardware. |
| 14:26 |
erle |
warr1024 does nodecore use any advanced features that require new graphics? i am not too well acquainted with it |
| 14:26 |
erle |
recently i played nodecore skyblock again and … remembered why i stopped nodecore skyblock |
| 14:26 |
erle |
i praise and curse kimapr for making it hahahaha |
| 14:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> anyways i gotta go now, be back in a couple hours |
| 14:26 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Even if my old machines don't stop being useful at any specific point, though, it doesn't mean I'm never forced to get new hardware for new use-cases. FOSS still makes this as painless as possible, and I can get away with very cheap refurbs of machines that are a few years old, so the amount of economic privilege it requires is way less than in the proprietary world. |
| 14:27 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> NodeCore doesn't require fancy features, but it does benefit from a few if you can enable them, like the auto-brightness shader making it a bit easier to navigate in caves without having to fine-tune your gamma settings. |
| 14:27 |
erle |
well gamma is broken anyway isn't it? |
| 14:27 |
erle |
or has that changed? |
| 14:28 |
erle |
Warr1024 i think within the next 5 to 10 years or so the usefullness of x86 machines will sharply decine, because of 32 bit issues |
| 14:28 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> However, NodeCore also has a lot of design compromises to account for the fact that certain basic rendering features, like alpha blending and depth buffering, only KINDA work, and if MT were to modernize its pipeline to the point where those could be fixed, I'd probably eventually rely on them actually working. |
| 14:28 |
erle |
oh, where do you want to rely on blending? |
| 14:29 |
erle |
IIRC blending semitransparent textures will *never* look right unless the gamma issues are addressed and that was decided as “won't do” |
| 14:29 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I wouldn't say gamma is "broken" so much that gamma isn't "gamma" 😆 It's a functioning way to adjust the brightness of middle-intensity lighting areas without changing the zero or maximum points. It's probably not calibratable, but at least it lets you work around the "my midtones are too dark" issue. |
| 14:30 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Places I want to be able to use alpha blending are things like liquids, entities, and particles. For instance, having particles be visible when viewed through a liquid surface. |
| 14:30 |
erle |
Warr1024 left is gamma-correct blending https://blog.johnnovak.net/2016/09/21/what-every-coder-should-know-about-gamma/img/opacity.png |
| 14:31 |
erle |
oh, you are talking transparency, not “colors/brightness is wrong” |
| 14:32 |
erle |
Warr1024 like order independent transparency? |
| 14:32 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> When I say "blending is wrong" I don't mean "they used the wrong amount of A and B to create C", I mean "when A goes behind B it's fucking gone" 😆 |
| 14:32 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> yeah, OIT would be great |
| 14:33 |
erle |
Warr1024 let me test this |
| 14:33 |
erle |
i thought it was fixed, but maybe i remember wrong |
| 14:38 |
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| 14:41 |
erle |
Warr1024 you are correct! i can't see particles outside of liquids. so no underwater pummeling i guess? |
| 14:43 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The way things are, it's not fixable, because we rely on face sorting, and you can only sort faces that are in the same lists, and we have different lists for different purposes. Sorting all faces would require us to break apart the mapgen meshes, throw them into a single list with particles, entities, etc. and sort them all. Every frame. Then deliver all that to the rendering pipeline after having lost any reusable batching across |
| 14:43 |
MTDiscord |
frames. |
| 14:44 |
erle |
batching lol |
| 14:44 |
erle |
are particles batched by now? |
| 14:45 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I ... think so? As of 5.10 or something, there are a few things that are batched that weren't before... |
| 14:46 |
erle |
well at least then lagging out people by means of particles is no longer a concern |
| 14:46 |
erle |
hacked clients have for years now had an option to disable rendering particles at runtime |
| 14:46 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> much less of a concern :-) |
| 14:46 |
erle |
to prevent getting lagged out |
| 14:47 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I actually almost went and wrote a server-side mod that would redefine add_particlespawner to track how many total expected particles there were and start reducing counts to try to keep it within a reasonable total limit across all effects. |
| 14:48 |
erle |
Warr1024 question: why is sorting by distance necessary? like, can't you just first draw all the opaque objects and then draw all the transparent ones from back to front? is the issue with that that the display lists are by object type and not if it is transparent or not? |
| 14:49 |
erle |
keep in mind i have no idea about anything |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> sorting is necessary because of the "from back to front" part. |
| 14:50 |
erle |
so if you had order independent transparency, then not |
| 14:51 |
erle |
i wonder why particles are visible through glass, but not through liquid |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> because glass uses clip transparency instead of blending. They affect the depth buffer differently. |
| 14:53 |
erle |
oh, so glass is either transparent or not? |
| 14:53 |
erle |
pixel-wise i mean |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> tbh clip transparency is a completely different performance train wreck (you have to do a texel lookup before you can tell if the pixel will be rendered, so looking through the transparent parts of a clip-transparency texture still incurs a lot of the rendering costs as if you actually drew it). |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> yeah, that's what "clip" transparency is. No blending or anything. If alpha >127, it becomes completely opaque, if <=127, it's fully transparent and the RGB and depth buffers aren't updated. |
| 14:55 |
erle |
Warr1024 what do you think of this approach? https://vtk.org/Wiki/VTK/Depth_Peeling |
| 14:55 |
erle |
is it too slow? |
| 14:56 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Reading the "Cons" section, that might be a problem, yes, but the "limited to recent OpenGL" thing might ironically be worse in some ways. |
| 14:57 |
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| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Like, all this started as an argument about "why are we dropping support for legacy rendering pipelines" and that doesn't sound like it'd avoid that. |
| 14:57 |
erle |
no, i just wanted to know what you would do *instead* |
| 14:58 |
erle |
or propose instead |
| 14:58 |
erle |
also, am i correct about no underwater pummeling? |
| 14:58 |
erle |
or hmmm |
| 14:58 |
erle |
let me check something |
| 15:01 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> you can pummel underwater but if you're not underwater yourself, you won't see the particles unless they breach the surface. |
| 15:03 |
erle |
yeah i just checked, particles underwater are visible, but not unless you are ALSO underwater |
| 15:04 |
erle |
Warr1024 also keep in mind, the page talking about “recent GPUs” was last updated in 2010 (not that it matters, but i found it funny :P) |
| 15:08 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The underwater thing is basically "if an alpha-blended surface exists between you and the particle" If you're not underwater, and the particle is not underwater, but there's a waterfall between you, it's a no go there too. |
| 15:09 |
erle |
yeah i checked that out with devtest just now |
| 15:09 |
erle |
btw, in case i have not mentioned it: for *windows* the “these machines are too weak” thing is absolutely correct. for some reason you can get much more 3D performance out of old hardware using linux. |
| 15:10 |
erle |
(i am not going to install windows to substantiate it, but fleckenstein once tried and failed) |
| 15:10 |
erle |
probably because mesa is pretty good at backwards compat |
| 15:11 |
erle |
(last time i asked about a mesa bug about my old intel GPU, the answer was “are you using the old driver? there is now a new one!”) |
| 15:12 |
erle |
Warr1024 do you have any kind of note collection that describes the engineering decisions of nodecore? given you seem to dot all the i's and cross all the t's (as they say), i'd like to read it. |
| 15:12 |
erle |
or is it the source comments like “keep this compat hack until we require engine version $X” that are the only public hints? |
| 15:13 |
erle |
and chat comments ofc |
| 15:14 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> https://gitlab.com/sztest/nodecore/-/blob/master/docs/releng.txt |
| 15:14 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> There are actually a few things in there I need to update, the MT/luanti rename being the least of them 😄 |
| 15:15 |
erle |
https://gitlab.com/sztest/nodecore/-/tree/master/docs this is interesting, thanks! |
| 15:18 |
erle |
Warr1024 if you ever do a talk on nodecore, please tell |
| 15:18 |
erle |
i am always interested in projects where a single person tries to have a coherent design |
| 15:19 |
erle |
the discussions in e.g. mineclonia are also much more deep than i see from other projects, but ultimately it's more a team effort to have more features (i.e. not as strict and not as narrow of a vision) |
| 15:19 |
erle |
Warr1024 it reminds me of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_d%27auteur |
| 15:22 |
erle |
Warr1024 also thank you far taking my question seriously and answering it! |
| 15:24 |
sfan5 |
>you have to do a texel lookup before you can tell if the pixel will be rendered, so looking through the transparent parts of a clip-transparency texture still incurs a lot of the rendering costs as if you actually drew it |
| 15:24 |
sfan5 |
hm? |
| 15:25 |
sfan5 |
a texel lookup is needed anyway for texturing and apart from 'discard' being bad for performance on some mobile gpu's clip alpha is good because the depth buffer will do the sorting for you |
| 15:26 |
sfan5 |
...actually I'm talking past your point |
| 15:26 |
sfan5 |
but "drawing something and making it transparent is worse than not drawing something" isn't the widom it seems |
| 15:34 |
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| 15:40 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> There's no such thing as a large, complex project that's run by a single person; a challenging enough project will just surface internal conflict within that person. You'll have arguments between past-you, present-you, future-you, and between you-as-a-designer, you-as-a-programmer and you-as-a-systems-engineer. |
| 15:40 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The way I see it, you can continue to pretend that you can keep it all sorted out in your head, or you can accept reality and start taking notes 😄 |
| 15:41 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Also, Conway's Law is very interesting when you realize that it applies to individuals as well. |
| 15:53 |
erle |
warr1024 look, things like this is why i want to know about your engineering decisions/process |
| 16:05 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> if you make good git decisions you don't have to take that many notes |
| 16:07 |
erle |
sick burn hehe |
| 16:12 |
erle |
are you by any chance opposed to 109k line commits cora? :D |
| 16:17 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> to do good git you first have to git good |
| 16:33 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> > are you by any chance opposed to 109k line commits cora? 😄 uh yes obviously |
| 16:34 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> i am even kind of opposed to 109k line PRs lol |
| 16:35 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> however i guess this is not the place to talk about good git decisions 😛 |
| 16:35 |
erle |
leave your git history hygiene at the door pls |
| 16:36 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> (or it will be removed by force) |
| 16:38 |
erle |
by force squash hahaha |
| 16:38 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> i really do not understand the reasoning behind that |
| 16:39 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> i mean if the git history of a pr is total suck you can always say "let's squash this" on a case by case basis |
| 16:39 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> but ultimately you mostly just remove information for, if anything a little aesthetic gain |
| 16:40 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> and the thing such a policy encourages people to make total suck git history |
| 16:41 |
erle |
grorp btw, i see you work on texture filtering. i have noticed that ALL fonts are slightly blurry on my system now. but only with unifont (my preferred font) i get absolutly awful rendering. |
| 16:41 |
erle |
well, they are slightly blurry in minetest/luanti |
| 16:41 |
erle |
while they weren't before |
| 16:42 |
erle |
or maybe they were and my eyes/hardware/software changed, who knows ;) |
| 16:42 |
erle |
(i am pretty sure it worked at some point in the past) |
| 16:42 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> my friend keeps implying luanti is an exotic fruit not a video game i might make a mod with luanti trees |
| 16:42 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> or does it grow on bushes? |
| 16:43 |
erle |
make a mob, the luantick |
| 16:43 |
erle |
it does nothing, except if a player is standing on a rug |
| 16:43 |
erle |
then it pulls it |
| 16:43 |
erle |
^_^ |
| 16:43 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> lol |
| 16:44 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> don't be so mean you will infuriate the luantciks :p |
| 16:44 |
erle |
luna chicks |
| 16:47 |
erle |
does anyone have any guesses why repixture is a great game but has very few servers? i found one that said it encountered an error when trying to connect |
| 16:47 |
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| 16:48 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> bc agpl :p |
| 16:49 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> > encountered an error when trying to connect i think that means it crashed |
| 16:50 |
erle |
corarona seems i need to make an AGPL mod download mod that sends the modified source code DIRECTLY into the users brain |
| 16:55 |
[ |
specing: skylake (for GPUs) is fine, it only requires blobs for h265 decoding which you don't need and didn't exist before so you're not losing anything that previous generations have |
| 16:56 |
[ |
I think it's since alder lake-p that the blob is actually required |
| 16:56 |
[ |
according to https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Intel_graphics#Enable_GuC_/_HuC_firmware_loading |
| 16:56 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> erle idk if that will help i think the issue is more like server owners feel "nah don't wanna get involved in licensing bs and agpl makes me" |
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| 16:57 |
specing |
server owners feel "I wanna locally patch luanti and agpl prevents that, boooo AGPL!" |
| 17:02 |
[ |
cheapie: I get the reference, I think. (dunnet has Robert Toukmond and Thomas Stock, but where do the middle name initials come from?) |
| 17:12 |
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| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> A 100kLOC commit is like the size of what you'd get if you smashed like 4 or 5 large, complex projects into a single repo, and then squashed the entire repo into a single commit. I think I can say I'd be opposed to 100kLOC commits too. |
| 17:57 |
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| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I'm not the biggest fan of it either. Now when I'm working on Irrlicht stuff the history I get is "Copy irrlichtmt to <root>/irr/" 🙃 |
| 18:12 |
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| 18:16 |
erle |
luatic for future reference, the correct way to do this is called a subtree merge and several people (me included ofc) pointed that out before. it was ignored by the-powers-that-be. |
| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: i'm aware |
| 18:17 |
erle |
well, just like “git add -p”, i often encounter people who do not know it |
| 18:17 |
erle |
(names have been withheld to protect the guilty) |
| 18:18 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "git add -p" has become obsoleted by powerful editors |
| 18:18 |
erle |
wdym? |
| 18:18 |
erle |
emacs magit or so? |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> VS Code or its FOSS variants |
| 18:20 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> as well as your average IntelliJ IDE, though I don't like those |
| 18:21 |
erle |
i bet this is software that uses like 1GB for a single text file or so |
| 18:21 |
erle |
one of my favourite tests for an editor is “open a large XML file (like multiple megabyte) and see if the syntax highlighting makes the computer lag” :D |
| 18:23 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> obviously "does it make a computer lag" isn't a very useful metric when there are a wide variety of computers, and when you have to nail it down to a specific computer or range of computers, that kind of reveals the underlying assumptions. |
| 18:24 |
erle |
well if i have 50MB of XML (and i once had multiple of those files, years ago, at work) it should be possible to edit this on any thinkpad from the last 20 years |
| 18:24 |
[ |
vs code is electron junk |
| 18:24 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> honestly I've never used add -p for the same reason I never use the "powerful editor" equivalent: there's not much value in me making a commit that doesn't correspond to code that I've actually written and probably tested. |
| 18:25 |
erle |
i think “git add -p” is more a tool that makes people not commit their editor configs or accidental changes ^_^ |
| 18:27 |
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| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> For editor configs, the correct tool is probably .gitignore. For accidental changes, the correct tool is probably aborting the commit, carefully fixing the accidental changes (after possibly making a stash copy to ensure you don't accidentally revert the non-accidental changes), and then testing it again to make sure the accidental changes weren't more needed than you assumed, and THEN committing 😆 |
| 18:30 |
erle |
you are arguing in favor of being more careful to a chatroom in which the most polite reply to “a recent change broke something” is considered to be “well, you have garbage hardware” |
| 18:31 |
erle |
snark aside, i do actually teach people “git add -p” so they stop doing “git add *” or whatever leads to their config files going into commits |
| 18:33 |
[ |
you don't even need -p for that |
| 18:33 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The thing about -p and editor files is that the editor files tend to stick around, so -p only solves it for that one commit. It's too error prone to be a long term solution. |
| 18:34 |
[ |
add to gitignore and use git add ., or add files individually |
| 18:34 |
erle |
yes. gitignore is |
| 18:34 |
erle |
technically you just need discipline, but i can not replace the people who i show something |
| 18:34 |
erle |
i can just teach them |
| 18:34 |
erle |
some will appreciate it, some will not |
| 18:34 |
erle |
and sometimes they teach me something too! |
| 18:34 |
erle |
i love those cases |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It's fine for somebody who wants to do their first and possibly only contribution to a project and doesn't want to take the time to set things up properly, but by like the 2nd or 3rd time they do it, they really should do it the right way, and there's a question then about whether you'll be around to give them the right advice at that time. |
| 18:34 |
erle |
true |
| 18:35 |
erle |
i shall mention .gitignore the next time i do it |
| 18:35 |
erle |
thanks! |
| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Sometimes having discipline is about putting in the work when it's needed, and sometimes it's about putting in the work now because you know you won't always do it when it's needed later. |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> lol, yeah, "if you find yourself using git add -p again later, you should probably look up gitignore" is probably a good addendum 😄 |
| 18:37 |
erle |
Warr1024 besides air_equivalent (which i think should be improved instead of removed, so that it actually counts as air for some engine functions), which things did nodecore do that ended up on the chopping block (or close to it)? |
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| 18:46 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You mean like things I added to the game but was forced to remove due to engine changes? Or do you mean experiments I tried and later removed because they didn't work out well? |
| 18:47 |
erle |
the first |
| 18:49 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I don't remember ever having clearly had a case of that. |
| 18:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I've had features I've backed out because engine support I expected to be there was buggy or incomplete. |
| 18:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> For example, skybox navigation was significantly curtailed due to the texturemod memory leak problem, and pickpocketing I canceled when I discovered that raytrace can't hit attached entities. |
| 18:51 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> er, server-side raytrace can't, even though client-side you can still point at and punch them. |
| 18:52 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> There have been changes I haven't agreed with, like when shadows were first added and they were 100% in end-user control with no way for a game to disable them, and that caused people to create nonsensical shadows in nodecore that they claimed to be a game bug, not an engine/config bug. |
| 18:52 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Situations like that though have generally been resolved. |
| 18:55 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> sub tree is good howver you have to get used to doing bisect skip when you end up in a subtree commit |
| 18:55 |
erle |
corarona that's good advice! |
| 18:56 |
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| 18:56 |
erle |
wsor4035 you tagged issue #15289 – in case you care about it: the submitter of the issue is mistaken about this being a bug and “fixing” it would break a bunch of things at the map border, e.g. schematics that are placed at boundaries and have a postprocessing step that expects the entire schematic to be presented etc. pp. |
| 18:56 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15289 -- minetest.get_node() returns real nodes for coordinates outside the map (but adjacent to it) |
| 18:56 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> also rebasing a subtree branch becomes more or less impossible |
| 18:57 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> i am pretty sure erle is the only one who really knows whats happening at the map border |
| 18:58 |
erle |
nah, many people know implicitly and i am pretty sure paramat knows (or knew?) |
| 18:58 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> although they have bestowed some of that wisdom to me |
| 18:59 |
erle |
“know implicitly” as in “they write code that works because the behaviour at the map border is carefully engineered by whoever made it, so that it looks not too different from anything else unless you go WAY too far out” |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> if the map wasn't so tiny it wouldn't even matter that much |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> but as is everyone with a tiny bit of patience can easily reach it |
| 19:01 |
erle |
i remembered when i visited a map border on a server with a boat to go out of bounds |
| 19:01 |
erle |
but there already was a boat out of bounds |
| 19:01 |
erle |
(this was not a time travel story) |
| 19:01 |
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| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> lol |
| 19:02 |
erle |
best map border bug was obviously the crashbutton |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> yes ❤️ |
| 19:02 |
erle |
now i wonder if that ever worked with mesecons hmm |
| 19:03 |
erle |
would be a shame etc. |
| 19:03 |
erle |
brb testing |
| 19:03 |
ireallyhateirc |
Hmmm I'm reading the bug report and it seems that it's simply a manifestation of the +/- 1 node overgeneration which causes the other bug: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9357 |
| 19:04 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> erle and cora being cute |
| 19:04 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1303072315441156156/crashbutton.png?ex=672a6c29&is=67291aa9&hm=345938ea04e6a7b6a152a772b696fd2050a91441376f27d0659139060916cd97& |
| 19:04 |
erle |
oh lol i forgot that |
| 19:04 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> i blew you up accidentally shortly after iirc |
| 19:04 |
erle |
well we did want to blow up the map border |
| 19:05 |
erle |
but we accidentally blew up the entire server |
| 19:05 |
erle |
and myself |
| 19:05 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> hehe |
| 19:05 |
erle |
brb checking out if mesecons is bugged |
| 19:05 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> this sounds like a typical historic mcl bug though |
| 19:06 |
* SwissalpS |
imagines mesecons being bugged as in spy movies, sending home info about players |
| 19:07 |
MTDiscord |
<corarona> well certain games send info about players to all other players on certain occasions unrelated to mesecons though |
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| 19:43 |
erle |
i was not able to crash anything using mesecons, but i only tried a few minutes |
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| 21:40 |
erle |
<luatic> I'm not the biggest fan of it either. Now when I'm working on Irrlicht stuff the history I get is "Copy irrlichtmt to <root>/irr/" 🙃 |
| 21:40 |
erle |
ah, yes, that just happened to me too |
| 21:42 |
erle |
hahaha |
| 21:43 |
erle |
and then i end up at “Move source/Irrlicht/ to src/” so i have to figure out the magic incantation that makes “git log” rename-aware |
| 21:43 |
erle |
for reference: git log --follow "${FILENAME}" |
| 22:30 |
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| 22:31 |
erle |
i found a fix for “ Textures of TGA Type 1 with color format A1R5G5B5 seem to have their transparency bit ignored.” |
| 22:35 |
erle |
if someone can guess what it is, they will be as amused as i will be |
| 23:02 |
cheapie |
[: The middle initials were just selected at semi-random, it didn't sound right without them. |
| 23:03 |
cheapie |
(my justification at the time was D for dunnet and E for emacs, but that's about as good as random) |
| 23:11 |
wsor4035 |
erle: dont care about your spam |
| 23:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I don't think erle's remark was spam at all, though it was perhaps slightly rude to ping you just because you added a tag to that issue |
| 23:15 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> yeah, i would say to post it on github as it might be relevant, but oh wait, there fortunately banned there |
| 23:15 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> more so pinging for just tagging something is rather ridiculous |
| 23:16 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> (unrelated to the tagging itself) |
| 23:21 |
[ |
when will luanti move away from github to something freedom-respecting, like codeberg? |
| 23:22 |
erle |
wsor4035 i thought you were the last person to interact with the issue, therefore someone interested in it |
| 23:29 |
erle |
also you did not notice that it was not a bug, even though the topic has been discussed to death, so i thought i was helping. i was obviously mistaken. |
| 23:29 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> no, im a triager, i label issues. |
| 23:29 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> occasionally i comment if i have something of value |
| 23:30 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> ones i care about are usually the ones i will follow up on/create myself |
| 23:30 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> *follow up on outside of tagging/triaging role |
| 23:33 |
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