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11:57 |
Lsabz |
Hello! I'm playing on a Server and I suspect that a player has bad intentions. Is it possible for a hacker to be tracking my IP? This is how it hits me |
11:58 |
muurkha |
your IP is 2804:1b5c:11e2:af00:47da:122b:ce2:b3ca |
12:00 |
Lsabz |
muurkha I don't know I didn't check it. But is possible from chat of minetest? |
12:00 |
muurkha |
this suggests that you are in Matao in Sao Paulo (according tohttps://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo) |
12:00 |
muurkha |
I don't know |
12:01 |
muurkha |
certainly if they're on this IRC channel they could see it |
12:01 |
muurkha |
I don't think Minetest normally reveals the IPs of other players the way IRC or things like Jitsi do |
12:03 |
muurkha |
there's an API for this that a mod can call: https://gist.github.com/davisonio/686aba40989419dbdff2 |
12:03 |
muurkha |
and certainly it's possible for the server admin to install that and make it available to players |
12:03 |
Lsabz |
The server is not mine, but I I just play there |
12:06 |
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12:07 |
Lsabz |
Sorry I'm back |
12:10 |
muurkha |
no worries |
12:10 |
muurkha |
anyway I don't think there's standard functionality that makes player IPs available to other players |
12:11 |
muurkha |
but it's certainly easy for the admin to add |
12:11 |
Lsabz |
In this server they ban some players by ip, is it possible to a hacker get the players ip list |
12:11 |
muurkha |
anything is possible |
12:12 |
ROllerozxa |
if someone posts an IP grabber in a server's chat and you click on it then they could obtain your IP too |
12:13 |
muurkha |
good point |
12:15 |
Lsabz |
Oh yes, it happens, but I don't see nothing a normal with the link |
12:15 |
Lsabz |
Anormal |
12:16 |
Lsabz |
From individuos |
12:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh yes, attack vectors everywhere, organic or code |
12:17 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> We can only do so much, but if you type in your credit card info or password into the public chat, we can't really do anything about that one |
12:17 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> A simple mod would be url disposer |
12:18 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That can probably be built into the game with a regex filter |
12:18 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> A priv like "url" or something could be enabled for this |
12:20 |
Ingar |
or ask your players not to paste stupid thigns in the chat |
12:20 |
Lsabz |
I'll suggest that to admin |
12:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Lsabz: in principle, there is no easy way known to me that would allow a malicious player to obtain your IP without you making a mistake |
12:22 |
Lsabz |
Ok, but except that way the chances so is low |
12:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> in other words: the Minetest server, to my knowledge, does not divulge IPs (at least by default; maybe there are mods that change this). this includes bans - for obvious reasons, the IP blacklist is serverside. the only way to "query" it is by attempting to join with a specific IP, which is (a) very inefficient and (b) requires you to be able to spoof a gazillion IPs without your ISP or anyone else along the route noticing this. |
12:24 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Let's say there is some kind of buffer overflow exploit built into the server by accident that we have not discovered |
12:24 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Someone figured out a way to get to the address of the incoming IPs on the server by sending a specific ascii string as a packet to the server |
12:25 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This would mean that no IP is safe unless you are hidden behind an ip hider thing, like a vpn or whatnot |
12:25 |
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12:25 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This is a very specific scenario and I find it highly unlikely but not 0 |
12:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> someone capable of exploiting a buffer overflow most probably wouldn't blow it on grabbing some randos' IPs |
12:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I dunno man I've seen some people do some pretty wacky stuff over the years with this project |
12:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Remember the guy that tried to payload base64 to give himself server privs in whatever mod it was? hahaha |
12:27 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yeah, t'was a much shrimpler thingy tho |
12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it was HybridDog PR'ing techage iirc btw |
12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This might be a simple thing for a higly advances C/C++ dev |
12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> highly* |
12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i kinda wanna find a RCE in minetest |
12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Do I smell RCE tracker on the horizon? |
12:30 |
Lsabz |
Well, I know that server is host in a PC in a home, a moderator tell that in a chat I don't know if is real but I think it maybe not safe |
12:31 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh right, if you join a no-name server they can just snatch up your IP like it's nothing, it's literally built into the API |
12:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yes, servers get your IP. |
12:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> What are they going to do with an address? I dunno m8 |
12:32 |
Lsabz |
So if the server has a mod to moderate ban options and the attack is do there someone catch the ip list |
12:33 |
Lsabz |
Noname is server that don't appear in server list? |
12:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> no, this holds for all servers |
12:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> if a server issues a ban command / submits a ban formspec, a man in the middle could indeed read the IP that is being banned |
12:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but this again seems rather unlikely to me |
12:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> a server moderator* |
12:34 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This is an attack vector equivalent to robbing the mail truck to get someone's house address |
12:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well, the main problem for an attacker here would be to get the mail truck to pass by a node where he can at least inspect packets |
12:35 |
Lsabz |
Noname server don't shows in server list? Is it? |
12:35 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> no-name: a server that isn't in the official server list |
12:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> this is irrelevant. a server that shows in the server list gets your ip just as well. |
12:36 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I don't think someone wants to have their server removed doing something that immensely stupid |
12:36 |
Lsabz |
Oh OK, I just to understand what is noname |
12:36 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> "yeah we got jordan4ibanez's ip address, 5 bucks" and you've been black listed from the server list and we had to send out a forum warning not to join this server, OOPS |
12:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it's 13:37 |
12:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> just saying |
12:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (at least in Germany) |
12:38 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/hmm-thinking-gif-1696455838339387033 |
12:38 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> It was the minute of hacking in germany |
12:39 |
Lsabz |
I understand. I was worry because the conversation in chat was some creepy |
12:39 |
Lsabz |
And how I don't know anything about this |
12:39 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh yeah you'll meet people that pretend to be admins, people sending you to strange links, people are people and people can be crazy. Best to not engage |
12:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> There are plenty of wannabe "hackers" who barely know what an IP yet will try to intimidate you. |
12:42 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yeah exactly, just remember you had to have the IP/address to actually join the server, and I'm pretty sure most servers are just raw IPs unless they're the really fancy ones like yourland. You know the server's address spooky |
12:42 |
Lsabz |
Yes, this player turn be a friend in game, and but I never share personal info and he tells something weird suggest that not to me exactly |
12:42 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Note that even if - and that's a giant if - they got your IP, what are they gonna do? I highly doubt that they have some valuable exploits at their disposal. They probably just get a rough geolocation. And if you have a dynamic IP, you can usually just reboot your router to get a fresh one; it also usually changes periodically. |
12:45 |
Lsabz |
Yes, I reboot the router, I know that. well I'm most calm |
12:45 |
Lsabz |
And I'll suggest to admin to control link shares |
12:47 |
Lsabz |
So thank you so much guys. I need to go out now |
12:48 |
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12:48 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I was gonna write a whole bit and bob, but even if they get past everything and you notice that there's a random TTY doing random stuff, you can annoy the poop out of them by plugging and unplugging in your ethernet cable |
12:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> why plug it back in? 😂 |
12:49 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> To give them hope a few times before you change the user/root password |
12:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> all their hope is just risk for you |
12:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i'd just unplug and shut down if i suspected i was under attack, then probably nuke it from the orbit |
12:50 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/dangerous-gif-6113187 |
12:50 |
Lsabz |
😀 I understand put in down the connection |
12:51 |
Lsabz |
Is there some free VPN and cool |
12:51 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If they can get past the first line of defense, that means that there's a serious problem with the main entry point of your network and nuking it from orbit really wouldn't do anything, you'll have to do a change to the settings on your router/access point/blah |
12:52 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Unless you're in public of course then NUKE THAT THING OH GOD |
12:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Most routers just hardly are a "line of defense" |
12:52 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I guess I spent too much time configuring mine |
12:53 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I don't think Minetest would necessarily work well with a VPN, btw. You want low latency, and you want UDP. I kinda doubt that you'll find a good, free VPN that fits this bill, but maybe there is. |
12:53 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It is excusable if your router uses Lua for configuration 😁 |
12:53 |
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12:54 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I honestly have no idea. But if it does run lua then I deserve what's coming to me when a blackhat reads this conversation lmao |
12:54 |
Lsabz |
😆 I guess no |
12:56 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> We need routers written in... |
12:56 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> # rust |
12:56 |
DeepThgt |
no |
12:56 |
DeepThgt |
rust shouldt be used in production |
12:56 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/emoji-emoji-disintegrating-emoji-disappearing-meme-21st-century-gif-24891417 |
12:56 |
DeepThgt |
its a toy |
12:57 |
DeepThgt |
there isnt even a spec |
12:57 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yeah, it's a joke |
12:57 |
DeepThgt |
oh |
12:57 |
Lsabz |
Well guys, thank you so much, I hope I need to go out now |
12:57 |
DeepThgt |
woosh |
12:57 |
DeepThgt |
lo |
12:57 |
DeepThgt |
l |
12:57 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yeah, we should fire mozilla immediately |
12:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> hmm i think i can't block specific IRC users on Discord, can i? |
12:57 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> No, you'd block the entire bridge |
12:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I think I can't even block the bridge |
12:59 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> just mute the entire channel at that point 😂 |
13:11 |
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13:14 |
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13:21 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This actually brings up a great point now that I've thought about it for a bit |
13:22 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Why did ISPs ship out network switches and routers for so long with literally the same password/username for the root account even when they claimed they were secure? I mean now they kinda randomize it but it's got some weird default settings in it |
13:24 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> because the router interface is meant to be LAN-only and not internet accessible, I assume |
13:25 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Wait a second, I just realized I've been saying router instead of modem |
13:26 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Welp, that's what I get for talking when I'm waking up lmao |
13:29 |
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13:29 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> No, no, I was referring to the right thing, I was wrong about being wrong, incredible |
13:33 |
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14:00 |
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14:53 |
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15:16 |
jonadab |
The short version is, most people are bad at thinking about security. |
15:17 |
jonadab |
And that includes most IT security professionals. |
15:19 |
celeron55 |
most of the time when people talk about routers or modems they actually mean a device that integrates both a router and a modem |
15:19 |
celeron55 |
so, essentially, it's all wrong |
15:22 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> the perfect compromise, everyone is wrong :D |
15:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> this is unacceptable |
15:25 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but, because everyone is wrong, my claim that it is unacceptable is wrong, so it is in fact acceptable |
15:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but what if i now claim that everyone is wrong? |
15:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i would have to be wrong about this |
15:31 |
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16:09 |
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16:36 |
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17:38 |
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17:43 |
jonadab |
These days, when people say "router", they usually mean an 802.11 hotspot specifically. Which, yes, technically is a _type_ of router. |
17:45 |
jonadab |
"Everything you know is wrong." -- Weird Al Yankovic |
17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> When people say "router" they mean "that one funny looking box that makes the internet work in my house" |
17:49 |
jonadab |
Well yes. |
17:50 |
jonadab |
That's ok, I remember when people used to use the terms "CPU", "hard drive", and in some cases "modem", for a PC tower case and all its contents collectively. |
17:51 |
jonadab |
And "computer" for the monitor. |
17:52 |
Ingar |
I'm in customer support, you have no idea :D |
17:53 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> Monitors nowadays have whole ARM computers inside them, so it's technically correct |
17:54 |
celeron55 |
everything nowadays has a whole ARM computer inside it |
17:54 |
jonadab |
Ingar: I'm the entire IT department for a small-town public library. I have *some* idea. |
17:54 |
Ingar |
jonadab: :D |
17:55 |
Ingar |
jonadab: coincidently, we have a number of libraries between our customers |
17:55 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> Except ARM computers, but I'm sure there are some exceptions |
17:55 |
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17:58 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I've heard "CPU" and "hard drive" for tower, but "modem" is a new one to me 😆 |
17:58 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I've also heard the old joke about the optical drive tray == cupholder, but never seen that one in the wild. |
17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I did once get to see a teacher in middle school struggling to get a computer to power on, I suggested the most obvious thing "check to make sure it's plugged in," and he said "I'm SURE it's plugged it", then spent the next several minutes messing around with everything else before checking and finding it not plugged in. |
18:00 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Not as good as the old joke about "let me get a flashlight" "why?" "oh, the power is out here." but pretty funny at the time. |
18:01 |
jonadab |
I've never seen an authentic, non-ironic use of "cupholder" for CD drive either. |
18:02 |
Ingar |
I did, althoug hthe person in question was fully aware that it was a CD and didnt care |
18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It seems like a shame because it becoming well known as a joke may have warned off people from authentically making the mistake. |
18:03 |
jonadab |
I think by the time most computers came with a CD-ROM drive, most people knew what a CD was. They maybe didn't realize it could be used for things other than music, but they knew what it was. |
18:03 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I know that calling chess knights "horses" annoys people, so sometimes I would take it a step further and call the rooks "ashtrays" but it's not quite the same. |
18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Every floppy disk drive could be called a "floppy disk launcher" if you hit the button hard and fast enough. |
18:04 |
jonadab |
There are substantial regions of the English-speaking world where chess rooks are routinely called "castles". |
18:04 |
jonadab |
Eh, not sure about the old ones, warr1024. Some of them, you lifted the lever out of the way and then just pulled the diskette out. This was in the single-sided days. |
18:06 |
Ingar |
it worked with a 3 1/2" drive |
18:06 |
jonadab |
Oh, right, I'm thinking 5.25" |
18:06 |
jonadab |
Yeah, the 3.5" ones were all spring-loaded. |
18:07 |
jonadab |
I'm not quite old enough to have ever had dealings with 8" floppies. They existed during my lifetime, but the kinds of computers that had them, were not exposed to young children. |
18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I seem to remember the 5.25" ones being somewhat spring loaded too, though there was no way to change the speed or force of the spring. |
18:15 |
jonadab |
Yeah, the later ones were, @warr1024. By the time the drives could read double-sided floppies without you having to physically flip the disk over, they had an auto-eject mechanism, at least usually. |
18:15 |
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18:16 |
jonadab |
Also, by then they were usually only half height, meaning they only took up what would now be one full-sized drive bay on a tower/server case. |
18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I can't imagine why they would need to be taller when the disk itself is so thin. Needed a lot of clearance to fit vacuum tubes or something? |
18:21 |
celeron55 |
they were industrial grade chunky, with through hole components on the circuit boards and aluminium castings as structure |
18:21 |
jonadab |
I think in the very early days, they wanted room to _work_ on the things, mechanically. |
18:21 |
celeron55 |
stepper motors like in 3d printers nowadays |
18:21 |
jonadab |
And yes, the motors were a lot chunkier than in later years. |
18:21 |
celeron55 |
no surface mount, no sheet metal, no miniaturization of any kind |
18:23 |
celeron55 |
it's difficult to find a good side picture of the insides of an ibm pc, with more than 3 pixels |
18:23 |
jonadab |
But yeah, in the seventies, they used to actually repair such components when something went bad. So e.g. if a motor burned out, they'd remove it and put a replacement motor in, and the floppy drive would work again. |
18:24 |
celeron55 |
to show the chunkiness of the drives |
18:24 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Ah, of course, those big stepper motors ... just in case the disk inexplicably weighed several tons and you needed a lot of torque to get it spinning 😆 |
18:25 |
celeron55 |
https://i.pcmag.com/imagery/articles/03bmOl8eBV4DmWgft4j5kbQ-23..v1628537974.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/pics/ibm5150-topless.jpg |
18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Oh wow, yeah, I forgot how much people loved DIP packages back then |
18:25 |
celeron55 |
it was more about the fact that nobody made slim stepper motors back then |
18:25 |
celeron55 |
it was the only thing you could get |
18:26 |
celeron55 |
the supply chain had to catch up |
18:26 |
jonadab |
DIP was the only form RAM came in, among other things. |
18:26 |
jonadab |
Also it was often used for logic chips, like the ones with gates on them and stuff. |
18:27 |
celeron55 |
well any chips whatsoever |
18:27 |
jonadab |
Sure. |
18:27 |
jonadab |
These days the logic gates would be integrated into some much more advanced chip. |
18:28 |
jonadab |
And the RAM would come as a DIMM. |
18:29 |
jonadab |
Although, the amount of RAM a floppy disk needs, would be integrated into the I/O chip. |
18:29 |
jonadab |
floppy disk *drive I mean. |
18:29 |
celeron55 |
by the start of the 90s circuit boards still had some through hole components. at the end of the 90s nothing was, anymore. except maybe the bios rom chip |
18:30 |
celeron55 |
(and big capacitors) |
18:30 |
jonadab |
Some of the chunkier connectors remained through-hole for physical reasons. |
18:30 |
celeron55 |
connectors still are |
18:30 |
celeron55 |
at least partially |
18:31 |
celeron55 |
they need to stay on the board when an overgrown ape tries to break them |
18:31 |
jonadab |
Yeah. I'm guessing it makes the connection more robust, and the plugging/unplugging is an issue without that. |
18:32 |
jonadab |
Although laptops can have some pretty delicate connectors in some cases. |
18:32 |
celeron55 |
laptops can have very delicate internal connectors as they are not designed to be serviced by the average joe |
18:33 |
celeron55 |
external ones... well you'd hope they'd be sturdy, but you get what you get |
18:33 |
celeron55 |
these days, you might not get any external connectors 8) |
18:34 |
jonadab |
I was thinking things like hard drive connectors, yeah. Theoretically user-serviceable but in practice, only kind-of user serviceable. |
18:35 |
jonadab |
The ones for stuff like USB ports, should _in principle_ still be as robust as ever, one would hope. |
18:36 |
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18:36 |
jonadab |
Unless you buy Apple, in which case, yeah, you probably don't get any standard connectors because that would make you a plebe or something. |
18:39 |
celeron55 |
apple users are neurotic about having anything else than the laptop on their desk so they wouldn't use any connectors anyway |
18:39 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The true "no external connectors" thing is only sort of theoretically possible with wireless charging, but it's super inefficient right now. Might be an interesting way to make a completely IP68 laptop that's completely sealed shut and you could use it safely at the bottom of a swimming pool or something, though I can't see all that much practical use for that. |
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18:40 |
jonadab |
What, you never want to check your email in the shower, or while deep-sea diving? |
18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Hilariously, I have a work-issued macbook and one of the first things I wanted for it was a dock so I could connect stuff like a mouse, network adapter, etc. while still charging it... |
18:40 |
celeron55 |
well, the shape of a laptop is an absolute nightmare to waterproof. huge surface area, the worst halfway point between bendy and not bendy, and the worst of all, you have a keyboard |
18:41 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If I wanted to just check my email, I'd just get a waterproof phone, and those are MUCH more practical. In fact, if you want an IP68 phone case, Ziploc makes them, you can buy them in packs of a hundred 😆 |
18:41 |
celeron55 |
it would be possible and there probably are waterproof ones, but they are probably absolutely awful to use |
18:41 |
jonadab |
celeron55: Yes, if only people could learn how to do their computing tasks using a featurless sphere, instead of a laptop... |
18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If I'm bringing a full laptop with me to the bottom of the ocean, it's because I want to program. "Hold on, I have to swap out my oxygen tank before the upcoming zoom call. Don't mind the fish, they're just curious about the camera." |
18:42 |
jonadab |
Heh. |
18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Featureless sphere computing would at least make physicists happy. |
18:44 |
jonadab |
Point mass would be even better. |
18:44 |
celeron55 |
we already have featureless slab computing |
18:45 |
celeron55 |
the day they integrate an AI voice assistant into internet banking, people will be free to move into featureless sphere computing |
18:45 |
celeron55 |
it'll take some years still |
18:46 |
celeron55 |
mostly because there are banks involved in internet banking |
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MinetestBot |
[git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest: Extend bone override capabilities (#12388) 0d61598 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/0d61598d8aef6466fe232e97bd0de1ed4e726a54 (2023-12-20T20:21:53Z) |
20:23 |
MinetestBot |
[git] grorp -> minetest/minetest: Fix touch input on Linux 3b346fd https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/3b346fd3c916851af1d8bbee8f4bd0d9b2750938 (2023-12-20T20:22:15Z) |
20:24 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Enable segment heap on Windows 47e557b https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/47e557b96ad4b9f053cf35150b2f46fe623b4dc7 (2023-12-20T20:23:08Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] grorp -> minetest/minetest: Fix TouchScreenGUI ignoring server-sent pitch changes 04dc4a1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/04dc4a10f03c2f7d28ae59c772bc726a9b6856cc (2023-12-20T20:24:10Z) |
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21:31 |
MTDiscord |
<mistere_123> Assuming you have some kind of mouse input that works underwater, the usecase is dolphin research; having underwater computers with enough power for AI is a big proplem for dolphin communication researchers (source: radiolab, iirc) |
21:31 |
MTDiscord |
<mistere_123> Oh, in reference to Warr1024's underwater computer reference |
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