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| 01:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> does minetest.encode_png like the array or the raw string more? |
| 01:33 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Also if it's a raw string, how does one encode it? |
| 01:55 |
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| 02:01 |
Mantar |
welp, I confirmed that my segfault happens in luajit when forceloading, disabling luajit kept it from happening all afternoon, enabling it got me a crash right away. |
| 02:03 |
Mantar |
now I guess I have to compile a new luajit with debug info, because this back trace is useless |
| 02:05 |
Mantar |
clarification: I think it's when forceloading, but I know it's in luajit |
| 02:13 |
Mantar |
nope, it's immediately after the force loading, when doing a minetest.serialize(). |
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MTDiscord |
<luatic> Mantar: interesting. could you dump the data you're serializing via other means so that I can take a look? |
| 12:39 |
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| 13:10 |
sfan5 |
@jordan4ibanez string. if you pass an array it will be converted to a string before. |
| 13:10 |
sfan5 |
basically you just throw the rgb values into string.char and build it like that |
| 13:10 |
sfan5 |
(though don't forget to use the array + table.join trick for performance) |
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| 15:17 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
hello, can folks tell me if the webserver at http://arklegacy.duckdns.org port 80 is accessible? (note: HTTP, not HTTPS). I'm trying to debug a DNS problem players keep mentioning. People are still able to connect to the minetestserver (same address) and I can SSH into the machine, so I'm wondering if my router or ISP is blocking port 80. |
| 15:18 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> works fine |
| 15:18 |
ROllerozxa |
I can access your website from port 80 there |
| 15:18 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
ok thanks |
| 15:18 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Is it because you're using port 80 and browsers are now trying to force HTTPS upgrade? |
| 15:19 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
I have no idea about forced HTTPS |
| 15:20 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If you have an HTTP site but not an HTTPS site, then you really should have a fax number too. |
| 15:20 |
ROllerozxa |
in firefox's "forced HTTPS" mode it will show you a warning if it doesn't support HTTPS and only HTTP, and allows you to continue to the HTTP site |
| 15:20 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1183428144645029888/image.png?ex=65884c58&is=6575d758&hm=902c9546080923e5b2f6b52e357f553dd94715fca150530ba11fecfeb5ca40b2& |
| 15:21 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Yeah, works okay if you hit the button (which of course 40% of users will do so blindly, while 60% of users will immediately complain that the "site is down" with no further detail) |
| 15:21 |
ROllerozxa |
haha, yeah you're right about that though |
| 15:21 |
ROllerozxa |
"scary warning? well, must be down then" |
| 15:21 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
As the site doesn't accept login information I never bothered to get a certificate. HTTP has worked fine here for a long time, but recently I see users in chat talking to each other about how they have to add the IP address into their hosts file in order to connect. |
| 15:22 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Thanks sfan5, time to go crazy |
| 15:23 |
sfan5 |
minetest doesn't care about SSL so that sounds like dns problems |
| 15:25 |
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| 15:28 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Haha, I checked out DuckDNS, and in their FAQ: "Q: are you secure? A: our entire service is run over https with a valid 256bit signed ssl certificate." ... their certificate is an RSA 2048, which is equivalent to about 168 bits... |
| 15:28 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Saying that you're using a 256 bit certificate is basically one of the more succinct ways to tell people that you don't really understand TLS. |
| 15:28 |
sfan5 |
they probably meant AES-256 or so |
| 15:28 |
sfan5 |
(which is not a property of the certificate) |
| 15:29 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Right, they're probably using AES256, which is not a property of the certificate, and is basically pointless (it's about 40% slower than AES128 for the same security level). |
| 15:30 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> AES256 only really exists because of Grover's Algorithm, but quantum computing isn't practical yet anyway, and then they reduced the rounds for AES256 compared to AES128, to try to compensate for that speed problem, but it makes 256's margins MUCH thinner, especially after some round reduction attacks were found like 5+ years ago or something. |
| 15:31 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Haha, also, the session I was using was actually doing AES128 GCM, so it seems like they actually ARE doing security competently, they're just talking about it wrong 😆 |
| 15:32 |
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| 15:37 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
On another topic, I have a licensing question on the lapis lazuli mod. I posted here https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=12368 if anyone knows |
| 15:40 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Sounds like WTFPL is wrong then. |
| 15:40 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Some people put a LICENSE file into their repos that covers only SOME of the content, which is sloppy/misleading. |
| 15:43 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
There's no LICENSE.txt. the license info in the repository's READMD.md appears well-written (to me) so its just that one line about "base code" that confuses me. |
| 15:45 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
I don't see how "columns.lua" takes anything from the default stairs mod in Minetest, unless it is far back in history. |
| 15:46 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
Given that the author put their textures (the hardest work) under WTFPL I would *almost* think that was their intention for the whole mod, and that they only used code from the stairs mod due to some necessity. But I'm not certain |
| 15:49 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It kinda matters what the author intended (in a "how would things work out in court" sense) but it also really doesn't matter (in a "how will the licensing chill downstream derivatives" sense). |
| 15:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If you want to use this for something serious (you don't really need to worry about licenses for purely personal uses, generally) then it might be worth looking at another fork. |
| 15:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The one on CDB at least seems to have passed the basic license audit. |
| 15:54 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
I package the mod as part of musttest_game which is largely WFTPL/MIT/CC BY-SA/ZLIB or whatever; not sure how serious this counts as. Mostly I'm trying to get the licensing fixed in order that potential future downstreams don't have to deal with GPL-related problems. |
| 15:55 |
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| 15:56 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Oh, yeah, you've already got copyleft in your textures from the sound of it, it'd be a shame to have your code infected too ... even though you already sound like you've got a fair amount of compound license chaos as it is 😅 |
| 15:57 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If you're repackaging it as part of a derivative work, especially one that is not just a mod salad thrown together but actually has integration work done on it, then I'd count that as about as "serious" as it gets. |
| 15:58 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
From my understanding most licenses are compatible with the spirit of MIT/CC BY-SA, and the LGPL at least doesn't "spread" like the GPL does. So atm it's only GPL that concerns me |
| 16:00 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Not sure what "the spirit of MIT/CC-BY-SA" is supposed to mean, because those licenses have 2 different spirits. Â One is a permissive and one is a copyleft. |
| 16:01 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The LGPL isn't a license that "doesn't spread", it's one that only spreads vertically but not horizontally. |
| 16:02 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
If I understand you right, vertical spread is fine for my usecase |
| 16:02 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
MIT is traditionally for code, CC-BY-SA is traditionally for art, but both are extremely permissive and neither spread. |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You must be thinking of CC-BY, not CC-BY-SA, which is like the [L]GPL of the CC world. |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The -SA part of CC-BY-SA is the vertical (at least) spread bit. |
| 16:04 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
Not sure what you mean? A quick search says the main different is that SA means to give attribution, and license derivatives the same way (so vertically, which is fine) |
| 16:05 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
Attribution should be given anyway in all cases, so it's not an issue |
| 16:05 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> No, the SA has nothing to do with attribution, that's what the BY part is for. It'd be weird to see a pure CC-SA that doesn't require attribution (also I'm not sure if it would work legally?). |
| 16:06 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Anyway, if your licensing works for you then you should just say that, instead of "my licensing is XYZ and XYZ works for me" because if your licensing is NOT XYZ then you'll end up in an argument that has nothing to do with whether it works for you. |
| 16:06 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
I'm looking at https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/cclicenses/ So I'm wrong, BY is attribution. SA just means relicense with same terms. |
| 16:08 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Right. Â MIT/CC-BY are "same spirit" licenses. Â LGPL/CC-BY-SA are similarly "same spirit". Â MIT/CC-BY-SA are not quite. |
| 16:08 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> In any event, it's pretty common to have looser code than asset licenses in this ecosystem anyway. |
| 16:09 |
MTDiscord |
<mnh48> BY is indeed attribution, basically how you always say 'this is by < someone >' in normal sentence where you attribute it to said someone |
| 16:09 |
MTDiscord |
<mnh48> SA is share-alike, hence relicense with the same terms |
| 16:10 |
MTDiscord |
<mnh48> that's how I managed to remember them anyway |
| 16:11 |
MTDiscord |
<mnh48> additionally, NC is non-commercial and ND is no-derivative |
| 16:12 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> In any event, if they used GPL code, even if they don't give proper attribution or they get the license wrong, then it still GPL-infects the mod. Â If they use LGPL code, it still infects anything that includes it downstream. Â If they used LGPL code but say that it's GPL, then that might actually be sufficient to "upgrade" it to GPL, since IIRC it's common for GNU licenses to allow conversions in that direction, and this may include |
| 16:12 |
MTDiscord |
"null derivatives." |
| 16:13 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> So if you're trying to avoid a GPL infection I'd be cautious of that fork. |
| 16:30 |
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| 16:51 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> which function is table.join in lua? |
| 16:55 |
calcul0n_ |
table.concat() i guess |
| 17:01 |
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| 17:43 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
So Minetest's node limit is 32k registered nodes. Do aliases eat into this limit? |
| 17:44 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
By that I mean, if I have 32k nodes, and then I alias 1k of them, do I now have 31k nodes, or am I still at 32k? |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> no |
| 17:45 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It's the number of unique names that your world has ever had assigned an ID, right? |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> So if you replace a node definition with an alias later, you probably don't get that ID back. Â But if you put in an alias before the name was ever tied to an actual definition ... that's a good question. |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> if your aliasing something that existed before, that goes to the 32k pool of unknown ids |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Oh, so that gets moved to the OTHER pool then? |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> yeah |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> you actually can break minetest if you have more than 32k of unknown ids |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> theres and issue for it |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> *an |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10916 |
| 17:48 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> How does ID:name mapping work anyway ... is it per mapblock? Â If you load a mapblock that was saved when the node WAS known but it is NOW unknown, does that mean those nodes will get assigned a different ID at save? |
| 17:49 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> mapblocks have their own "palette" of IDs mapped to a nodestring. if a node in a mapblock is unknown, it will stay the same nodestring, it's not modified so it could come back if you e.g. reenabled a mod |
| 17:50 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> side bar, the 32k limit wouldnt be much of an issue if something like judes pr got merged that allowed nodes to change textures/models |
| 17:50 |
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| 17:50 |
Desour |
the name_id mapping is global. and it is stored persistently in the map db per mapblock (only for the nodes that appear in the block though) |
| 17:52 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> So there's a registered name/id mapping that I guess is defined by registrations and known at mod load time (but could change arbitrarily if mods are changed or loading/registration order changes) but then there's a separate pool that's only for runtime-learned mappings that miss the registered mapping lookup, and those have to be built up over time as mapblocks are loaded...? |
| 17:53 |
ROllerozxa |
I believe there is both a global name-id mapping used in-memory (which is where the ID limit comes from) and a mapping for only nodes which exist in a mapblock, when it is saved to disk |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I guess since MT still uses a content ID in memory and not just a name string for each node, you'd have to decode and map the mapblock stored ID to the shared global in-memory ID at load time, so even if each mapblock may have different sets of unknown nodes, you still need to allocate an ID globally to each one, you can't have per-mapblock mappings just for those... |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> this has been adopted: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/13811 |
| 17:54 |
Desour |
AFAIK, unknown nodes use negative ids. not sure how it works for them though |
| 17:54 |
Desour |
!title |
| 17:54 |
MinetestBot |
No title found. |
| 17:54 |
Desour |
#13811 |
| 17:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13811 -- Add node texture variants by sfence |
| 17:56 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
Now there just needs to be a PR for node model/nodebox variants and we'll be all set. |
| 18:01 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
So from the sound of it, it seems that aliasing a node doesn't recover its ID. This is necessary, obviously, for casual users who install and uninstall mods. I think however that for server operators, Minetest could really use a tool (perhaps a commandline switch built into the server) to scan a map and recover all unknown node IDs so they can be |
| 18:01 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
reused. This would help the case where we need to migrate from a mod that registers many nodes, to an updated version that registers only a few nodes with many metadata variants. Otherwise those node IDs could never be recovered. |
| 18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> BluebirdGrey51: Are you sure that those node IDs are wasted "globally"? Wouldn't they just "wasted" per-mapblock? |
| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> nvm just read up on the history |
| 18:06 |
BluebirdGrey51 |
I think only a core dev would know something that detailed. Digging around in various PRs/comments, people seem to have different ideas of how it works, and I don't know myself |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> IIRC there was some discussion on the discord side about a desire to have more options for compression migration, which would involve deserializing and reserializing mapblocks ... applying aliases and remappings and such could be done as part of a process like that. |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I think the proper solution would probably be to bump the mapblock format, yeah. |
| 18:11 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: GUIFormspecMenu: Fix race condition between quit event and cleanup in… 321bcf5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/321bcf5c4437e8ccc599be9004ad1590a6639c46 (2023-12-10T18:09:51Z) |
| 18:11 |
Desour |
relevant: correctBlockNodeIds in mapblock.cpp |
| 18:11 |
Desour |
it just generates new ids for unknown nodes |
| 18:11 |
Desour |
and once the limit is reached, CONTENT_IGNORE is used as new id, and you'll get warnings |
| 18:13 |
MinetestBot |
[git] srifqi -> minetest/minetest: Add sound volume when unfocused setting (#14083) 55fafb7 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/55fafb7d25fe5a127332e3e9f3e54e54ec1ec20c (2023-12-10T18:11:39Z) |
| 18:13 |
MinetestBot |
[git] lhofhansl -> minetest/minetest: Avoid movement jitter (#13093) a98200b https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/a98200bb4c1edb2c982577fb01b30075665ab488 (2023-12-10T18:12:37Z) |
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| 20:38 |
Mantar |
luatic: that was one of the first things I checked, there was nothing different about the data, I save the same data all the time and only occasionally does it decide to segfault. |
| 20:38 |
Mantar |
but it happens much more often if I have rspawn installed alongside my new spawn mod, presumably because they both do similar things. (the new spawn mod is intended to replace my crappy hacked-up rspawn that we were using on the server before) |
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| 21:50 |
MinetestBot |
[git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest_game: Mapgen: Don't clear biomes, decorations and ores 0536755 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/05367552d12729b3f7ac41f000b963059d65ddf4 (2023-12-10T21:49:51Z) |
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MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Does anyone know of a bug in MT or LuaJIT or something that would allow me to cause a sigsegv using mod code or a //lua command? Â I need to test my crash handler wrapper, specifically for segfault errors, but I really want to avoid going through the whole rigamarole of adding a segfault API to the Lua API... |
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