| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:58 |
|
Peter_Lankton joined #minetest |
| 00:59 |
Peter_Lankton |
I am curious... lets say i have a mod that might be useful to the minetest community. is it selfish of me to freely release and open source said mod but not want to share it on github? only a personal git server? just because the web2.0 brained people don't trust personal git servers or any website that is not in the Alexa top 1000? and likely no one will find it because google hates personal websites and my personal |
| 00:59 |
Peter_Lankton |
git probably has like the worst SEO ever. keep in mind that i do not want that to be the case. but thats just how it is. as a result, my mods remain obscure. does that make me selfish and narcissistic? |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> if you put your code on a personal git server, how is anybody else going to see it? |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> and do you mean that github has "the worst SEO ever"? |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> github has pretty good seo from my experience |
| 01:03 |
Peter_Lankton |
i would like it to be available in a google search but like i said, that ain't gonna happen because- well you misunderstood. i said my personal git server has the worst SEO. |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's fine to conscientiously object to GitHub as a platform and as an organization. I use GitLab partly for the same reasons (though it's only maybe like 10% "better" than GitHub in that regard anyway). |
| 01:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Other people use other git hosting options. You can self-host just fine, but if you do, it's ideal to try to get some other folks to mirror your stuff so its availability isn't dependent on your onlineliness. |
| 01:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Gitea is a popular platform for self-hosting git stuff, and there have been at least a couple such hosts that offer public space for MT projects. Is MeseHub still a thing? |
| 01:06 |
Peter_Lankton |
IMO gitlab is worse. at least the main site. doesnt work for noscript users, has obnoxious browser checking and captchas. i guess since my code's license allows it (being FOSS and all) other people could mirror my repos if they want. but i dont really have any Alexa top 1000 git sites i would wanna put them on myself. |
| 01:06 |
Peter_Lankton |
i do host my own gitea server. i like how easy it is to set up |
| 01:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> gitea is better than gitlab anyways |
| 01:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Oh, so you're just objecting to the low-end UX of these things? Most people object to the lack of open source spirit of the hosting platforms, rather than technological choices. |
| 01:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Frankly that sort of stuff never really mattered to me, because having a web front-end in the first place is sort of just a "nice to have" for web users anyway. Most people who are going to seriously interact with the content will do it via git. I run gitolite at home, and it doesn't have a "front end" at all. |
| 01:09 |
Peter_Lankton |
well i do also object to the lack of open source spirit with gitlab. IIRC, the software is not entirely open source. there is a commercial version with more features that is proprietary. |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If you decide to host your FOSS on a personal Gitea instance, and your policy is "anyone can mirror my stuff but I will never publish it to a major public git host, and will not accept responsibility for any such mirrors anyone else creates" then I think that's perfectly fair. People may complain about the inconvenience, but as long as you've got some people who actually care about the stuff enough to mirror it themselves, then that's |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
fine. |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> not to be that super-github guy but what do you not like about github? |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> GitLab is somewhat more open source than GitHub. Once upon a time it used to be significant, but since then I think they've added more proprietary stuff. I think they're still a bit better of a flavor than GH though, and for some projects it's an acceptable compromise. |
| 01:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Regardless of which hosting platform you use, I think it may be MORE valuable to avoid using the hub/lab features and stick to pure git. Git is effectively a protocol, which means it can be implemented by anybody and thus anything on it is not necessarily locked into any decision unless people start relying on platform-specific features. |
| 01:12 |
Peter_Lankton |
Warr1024: yeah i think thats how i will do it. anyone is free to mirror my stuff. frankly right now, the only way people will discover it is if i tell them. which i plan to do on whatever servers i run with the mods on it. |
| 01:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> So if you really like my game and want to mirror it, but you don't want to interact with GitLab at all, it would be minimal effort for me to just spin up a separate mirror somewhere else I can self-host for that purpose. |
| 01:14 |
Peter_Lankton |
Thresher: what i dont like about github? honestly not much. i do have some projects on there. mainly i dont like that its closed source, or owned by microsoft, or that they use ur code to train their AI. its more of a case of "now that i have the personal server, i would rather use it." |
| 01:15 |
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smk joined #minetest |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> tbh GH is controversial in its own way in the MT community. A lot of people encourage people to use it, at least in part because it's still common for people not to use source control at all and GH is generally considered as step up from that ... and partly because people are just familiar with it. However, IIRC even the core devs have been wishing they were less locked in and could migrate MT engine off of GH (or at least that the |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
option was viable if it became needed). |
| 01:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It kind of sucks when you have tens of thousands of issues in an issue tracker, it's not integrated with git so it's not mirrored automatically the way your source is, and the process of exporting and migrating that data anywhere else would be non-trivial, and you can't manage it in a distributed way the way git allows you to do with source. |
| 01:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That's my main concern with GitHub: if you actually use some of the "hub"-specific features then you expose yourself to vendor lock-in risk. |
| 01:18 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah that does kinda suck. ive come to hate these walled garden systems like that. where data cant be exported easily. thats why i prefer matrix and email over discord for example. |
| 01:21 |
Peter_Lankton |
i even wanna make my creative plot server mod allow plot exporting so people can officially migrate their creations. |
| 01:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> EU law requires that data be "easy to export" so in theory I think you can get dumps of like issue tracker stuff these days (non-EU users tend to get to benefit from EU regulation as a side effect) but there really isn't a strong set of standards for this data, so it may take some work to get it imported elsewhere, and expecting it to be merged with data at the destination is probably too much to ask for. |
| 01:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also, data "portability" in that sense tends to only cover you moving from one commercial host to some other commercial host who has deemed the value of poaching customers from a competitor worth the import feature ... migrating to self-hosting is still not that easy... |
| 01:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you should read giteas issue tracker. iirc you can export all that stuff via the api, so it isnt really lock in |
| 01:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, I mean, lock-in isn't something you usually have to worry about with self-hosted software, because, y'know, know your audience. If somebody is self-hosting then it's very likely that having direct control over their data is a big factor in their motivation. |
| 01:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/issues/1029 / https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/pull/18165 github locking for issues is nonsense claim |
| 01:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think I would prefer though if issue trackers stored the issue data in git itself directly, so that it was automatically included in all mirrors and portability was fully automatic. |
| 01:25 |
Peter_Lankton |
oh yeah thats right, i guess you can export data on some platforms like discord. i did that once. got to see messages from servers i was banned from. not sure why they have that feature when they dont follow the gdpr rule of allowing user data to be removed but thats a tangent i dont wanna get into. |
| 01:25 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah i think gitea can migrate issues if you use a GH api key. |
| 01:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> just pointing out that warrs claim of "vendor lock-in risk" with github is nonsense. iirc github wikis are literally markdown in a git repo no less |
| 01:27 |
Peter_Lankton |
oh yeah i was about to mention that but forgot. the wikis are a separate repo with markdown so i do like that. |
| 01:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Ah, yes, all I have to do is export a bunch of data from a whole bunch of random "features" and then find importers for all of it. Total "nonsense". |
| 01:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> as you would with any other thing that lets you import data |
| 01:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> *export |
| 01:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If I had to fuck around with import/export processes for data with git then I'm not sure if I'd use that either, as things stand now. That was one of the things that made me stop using Fossil. |
| 01:30 |
Peter_Lankton |
i guess it would be nice if that could be standardized somehow but i know that would just be like https://xkcd.com/927/ lol |
| 01:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't think it makes sense to standardize data imports/exports because there are more different kinds of data that would need standards than there are different platforms hosting that data anyway. You'd spend more time writing standards than importers. |
| 01:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The whole "export your data" thing is really designed around the assumption that it's sort of an "emergency" feature that people will not really routinely use. |
| 01:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I played around with Google's data exporter, but it takes days for them to archive a snapshot and you get it in like a dozen 2GB files or something. |
| 01:32 |
Peter_Lankton |
true. but maybe some things like forums and chat logs could at least be standardized. then someone could build exporters for discord and facebook messanger etc. and importers for things like XMPP and matrix. |
| 01:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also, I love how the alt text for xkcd 927 has not aged well, since now everything is actually kind of standardizing around USB-C now 😄 |
| 01:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> the connector sure, but protocols not so much |
| 01:33 |
Peter_Lankton |
eh, sort of. but sometimes there are issues with certain charging bricks not working with certain devices. and i dont just mean not enough amps. |
| 01:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, at least we agreed to use the standard, even if we can't apparently agree on what the standard actually is 😆 |
| 01:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> IIRC I've heard that Nintendo and Apple in particular don't agree with each other and you don't want to try to charge your switch from a macbook adapter or vice versa, or something. |
| 01:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i think its more nintendo being nintendo than anything |
| 01:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> USB is also complex enough internally that "15 competing standards" would be an improvement if USB looked like that internally. |
| 01:36 |
Peter_Lankton |
yep definitely a step in the right direction. hopefully the EU thing with the iphones needing to use usb-c affects other countries too lol. |
| 01:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If Apple kept selling lightning-port-only devices in non-EU markets, they'd have to maintain separate tooling and supply chains for the connectors, and it would complicate logistics significantly, so the only reason they would really do that is out of pure spite. I'm not sure how much spite Apple has. |
| 01:40 |
Peter_Lankton |
true. tho i guess it doesnt matter to me anyways since i dont use apple devices. but its nice to see. |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't choose to consume Apple stuff myself, but I've got family and a job and limited control over their choices, so anything that makes the landscape better overall can still affect me eventually. |
| 01:48 |
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YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest |
| 01:54 |
Peter_Lankton |
so does anyone know why the ghoststone in the mesecons mod is red in the inventory but grey when placed down? i find that kinda odd lol. |
| 02:33 |
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nutcracker500[m] joined #minetest |
| 03:03 |
Blockhead256[m] |
self-hosted git and git web interfaces is well-accepted by Minetest people in my experience |
| 03:03 |
Blockhead256[m] |
it'll still probably be found by search engines if it's linked anywhere else on the web. For instance the bananach.space repositories which are a cgit instance still show up in search results, probably in part thanks to some direct links from the forums and advtrains wiki |
| 03:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "Well accepted" in that we don't find them inherently untrustworthy or avoid them, but we will complain about them if they are unreliable or slow. |
| 03:07 |
Peter_Lankton |
man there must be some real bad eggs on the mt forum then. on a thread that is now deleted, someone had called me selfish when i said something like 'i didnt wanna use github and that my mods are just gonna remain obscure.' and said they dont trust self hosted repos. that thought has been living rent free in my head for a few days so i figured i'd ask for thoughts here. it needs to be said, the forum is a cesspool. im |
| 03:07 |
Peter_Lankton |
glad the irc doesnt seem to be though. |
| 03:09 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I thought the idea with your stuff was to remain obscure |
| 03:09 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I'd prefer it that way to be honest |
| 03:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Extremal opinions will be overrepresented when you hear from self-selected people ... but you'll see some more objective metrics like download numbers that give you a sense that those people do not represent the majority. |
| 03:10 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but yeah don't let the usual weirdos on the forums opinions weigh too heavily |
| 03:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I thought the idea was to reach an interested audience, no more, no less 😄 |
| 03:10 |
Blockhead256[m] |
(I mean your adults-only stuff, not something of generic usefulness) |
| 03:12 |
Peter_Lankton |
i would like my more useful mods to be discoverable. like my anti noclip and plot mod (once i release it) i guess the fact that they share a git server with adult only mods kinda hinders that since i cant link to them on contentdb. i would generally keep the adult stuff obscure. only giving links to people who ask. |
| 03:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> tbh, just mirror your non adult repos to codeburg (i think it lets you auto mirror) and then use that as source |
| 03:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I still appreciate freedom in the abstract, even if the things I am free to use don't necessarily suit my taste. |
| 03:15 |
Peter_Lankton |
but yeah blockhead256, the people vehemently against minetest being used as a game engine/tool and not an exclusively kids game are a vocal minority i think. and are not worth my time to listen to. |
| 03:16 |
Peter_Lankton |
i might check out codeberg and see if it does some of the things i hate that websites do. likely if it uses google recaptcha, i wont even bother signing up. well at least if the captcha makes me do one of those stupid puzzles. |
| 03:17 |
Peter_Lankton |
oooh it doesnt! i think i will give it a try. |
| 03:17 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I like to play Minetest as an adult - just not adults-only.. I focus on realism, tech and railways |
| 03:17 |
Blockhead256[m] |
the assumption block games are just for kids is infantile |
| 03:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It feels like echoes of the assumption that ALL games were for kids, which I'd like to think should have been left back in some bygone era by now, but 🤷 |
| 03:19 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah. like the person on the forum asking why i wanna even use minetest instead of something else. that was just so dumb of a question IMO. |
| 03:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "My children's books are all written in English, so if you want to write erotic fiction, you should do it in some other language instead" 😄 |
| 03:20 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Minecraft (and clones) is one of those games famously popular among kids, like Roblox and Fortnite. There are adults that play all three though. |
| 03:20 |
Blockhead256[m] |
This is in contrast to games like.. hmm DOOM or GTA V or something - the amount of dumb teens on GTA V online notwithstanding, they shouldn't be playing an R18+ game |
| 03:20 |
Peter_Lankton |
on the forum, i made a similar comparison with other game engines. like some kids games are made in Unity. so does that mean adult games should not be lol? |
| 03:21 |
Blockhead256[m] |
so when your kid(s)/kids you know are quite interested something, and don't play it themselves, I can see why people might associate the game solely with kids |
| 03:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> A lot of games really only ever do manage to reach a narrow audience, so I think maybe when a game concept comes along that's able to transcend audience so successfully ... people just don't know what to do with it. |
| 03:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> People see a bunch of kids playing it and I guess just think -> kids play it -> it's for kids -> it CAN'T be for adults too. |
| 03:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Content-wise, my own game is suitable for like 3+, but its "core" audience is probably about 25 to 45. |
| 03:25 |
Blockhead256[m] |
if there's like a family gathering and there's a bunch kids playing a game and a bunch of adults around, I think the general view from society is that if an adult wants to join the game it's only to moderate or help entertain the kids, rather than because they will actually enjoy the game themselves. Not always but often. But personally I have played Minecraft with kids and had a blast showing them things and relating to them through |
| 03:25 |
Blockhead256[m] |
it :) |
| 03:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Sure, but that rule only applies until the kids have been put to bed 😆 |
| 03:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Honestly I do sometimes see the opposite from adults, like "oh this game doesn't have boobs and explosions, so I'd be embarrassed if my peers saw me play this." I might have cared about that kind of thing when I was younger but not so much anymore. |
| 03:28 |
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Trifton joined #minetest |
| 03:29 |
Blockhead256[m] |
how about exploding boobs though? |
| 03:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> haha, terrifying |
| 03:32 |
Peter_Lankton |
i guess when it comes to my mods, i do have a server i created to show off my useful mods without my adult mods. if you search "plot" in the server list in-game, the one server that shows up is mine. now if only it was possible to put hyperlinks in formspecs. |
| 03:33 |
Peter_Lankton |
so that i could easily link to their source repos |
| 03:34 |
Blockhead256[m] |
closest I can think of is a chat command that triggers the server to send you a chat message to the meta-repo/a particular repo, that way you can click on it |
| 03:35 |
Blockhead256[m] |
do you use a meta-repo with submodules, subtrees or the like for your servers' mods? |
| 03:36 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah i thought of doing that for my anti noclip mod. actually for that mod, i thought about making it show a hud in the corner for like 4 seconds when players join letting them know the server uses anti noclip and to type some command for more info. if anyone else uses that mod, they might not like the ad hud. so i might make it turn-off-able. |
| 03:36 |
Peter_Lankton |
for my servers mods i just use a gitea "organization" like a folder of sorts. |
| 03:37 |
Peter_Lankton |
but that might be a way to help my mod spread lol |
| 03:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think a good way to reach an audience would be to get your non-controversial mods on ContentDB, let people discover them that way, and then you can have a website linked from there that helps people discover your other mods ... and for the more controversial stuff, I think as long as you make it take some deliberate effort to get to those from there, then I think that could be done in a way that's acceptable within policy. |
| 03:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> People WILL probably complain, but we're also used to dealing with a lot of frivolous or even nonsensical complaints 😑 |
| 03:54 |
Peter_Lankton |
that was my original idea actually. to put my non adult mods on contentdb and they link to the git on my server where they are hosted. but someone had complained about it on the forum and so the links were removed. |
| 03:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Links removed from the forum? Or from CDB? |
| 03:55 |
Peter_Lankton |
from CDB. they complained that the links went to a nsfw website. which i guess is kinda true since my other adult content is on there. |
| 03:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Ah, okay, that makes some sense. Yeah, that could be an issue. I don't think you need to make it impossible to get from one side to the other, but some significant separation may be necessary. |
| 03:55 |
Peter_Lankton |
well not "kinda" true. is true. |
| 03:56 |
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Verticen joined #minetest |
| 03:56 |
Blockhead256[m] |
honestly I would keep two identities if I were you and not really try to cross-pollinate |
| 03:56 |
Blockhead256[m] |
too much opportunity for complaints and objections |
| 03:56 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah just not sure how much separation. i dont feel like setting up another domain name. i am still waiting for my confirmation email from codeberg |
| 03:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Personally, I'd keep separate identities too, because I don't want to deal with complaints and shit leaking over from one side to the other. However, compartmentalizing like that can be tiring for many people, it creates a sense of distance with your communities, and some people make see this form of personal liberty as a cause worthy of personally committing to even if it means they have to deal with more controversy. |
| 04:00 |
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MTDiscord joined #minetest |
| 04:00 |
Peter_Lankton |
that is a good point. i kinda already do that with some other things. (also i was so tempted to hit enter while the bot was offline. im guessing the message would have been missed.) |
| 04:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Oh, did it have a restart or something? We can't see that from the Discord side. |
| 04:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> it restarts daily iirc |
| 04:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'm on IRC too directly, so I'll see it if you point out that the bot missed a message. And there are public logs on web. |
| 04:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'm just too lazy to switch windows 😄 |
| 04:01 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah it seems to restart at 00:00 in my timezone. |
| 04:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> OIC ... our time zone, apparently. |
| 04:02 |
wsor |
you would have to be dead on the money to send a message while its down |
| 04:02 |
Blockhead256[m] |
the hardest part of maintaing multiple identities isn't so much the authentication, if you use tools like firefox container tabs and a password manager. I think the harder part is not blabbing too much and giving away your identity - if that's what you care about |
| 04:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> weird, considering that the guy who runs most (all?) of the bots for MT Discord is like 3 time zones away 😄 |
| 04:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> undercore stuff restarts in est midnight as well |
| 04:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> was some reason, cant remember now. to tired |
| 04:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ask the green monster yourself if you care |
| 04:04 |
Peter_Lankton |
yep. that is a concern for me. the correlation. imagine 2 different people suddenly start posting minetest content. tho i guess thats not too out of the ordinary. and i could still delay doing it between the identities. |
| 04:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Though to be honest if somebody DID put it together, they'd probably be dismissed as a conspiracy nut, because nobody would believe that YOU would go to that much trouble for minetest. |
| 04:05 |
Peter_Lankton |
lets say for a hypothetical, i call this other identity Alex. there is also the coincidence that Peter Lankton's server uses all of Alex's mods. |
| 04:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The biggest worry I have about compartmentalizing (and the failure mode that I've seen give away people the most) is stylistic similarities. Some people REALLY stand out from a crowd. |
| 04:06 |
Peter_Lankton |
oh yeah thats a big concern too. |
| 04:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Peter Lankton being a big fan of Alex's mods is not inherently suspicious to me. |
| 04:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I've seen plenty of instances where people just pick up a set of mods or other associations and roll with them. |
| 04:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> so at worst I'd suspect "maybe Peter has played on Alex's server before" |
| 04:08 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I think that in this case the point of having the two identities is to publish things to different channels, not really to obscure the actual person behind them. So it doesn't matter too much if people see a lot of correlation, probably. |
| 04:08 |
Peter_Lankton |
i wonder if its too late though. i guess the plot server could be alex's server instead. also the fact that we are discussing this publicly doesnt help. and they would have the same IP unless i get another VPS. |
| 04:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't think you should have to feel guilty about what you do in your own time though, and you can't help it if, say, you happened to try out a server incognito on a lark, and just happened to discover some mods you really liked that had nothing to do with why you were there in the first place. |
| 04:10 |
Peter_Lankton |
i can relate to that. ive seen mods i kinda like. not sure what its called, but that mod that adds the huge amount of shapes of nodes. like a L shape of yellow wool. |
| 04:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, I mean, some people may still make a stink about it, but the fact that you tried to create the separation as an act of good faith will also help you get more support from the more reasonable parts of the community. |
| 04:11 |
Peter_Lankton |
true. i guess they dont have to be used to obscure the identity. like i just make a new one. maybe i will call it alex. so its like who cares if people know that alex is peter. |
| 04:15 |
Peter_Lankton |
if i get my verification email, i could use codeberg for that. honestly i think it would be funny if someone makes a stink at that point. like "waaaaahh!!! if you go to his contentdb then click the source then click to the profile page then click to the site, that site is NSFW!!!" |
| 04:16 |
Peter_Lankton |
well thats if i even still link to my site. which i might not do. |
| 04:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I mean, if you go to any image search engine and set the ubiquitous "search safe off" option, you can get some risque results, so it doesn't seem reasonable to hold people to much higher standards than that... |
| 04:20 |
Blockhead256[m] |
some search engines have a hardline stance of no hardcore content though, others will show you anything that isn't illegal and some things that are.. |
| 04:22 |
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Guest97 joined #minetest |
| 04:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Fair, though those kinds of policies are only realistically implementable when you're in the mainstream "I knows it when I sees it" kind of regime, and once you get to the "what the hell am I even seeing" side of things, it can actually get really hard to classify. |
| 04:24 |
Peter_Lankton |
i agree. tho the forum users seem to wanna hold me to a unreasonably high standard. like to the point where i would literally need to be psychic to know peoples ages if they play on the adult server. |
| 04:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Like, I made a joke a while ago about Yoshi's Island being a veiled vore fetish game, but I honestly don't know if anyone sees it that way, and I'm kind of afraid to try to find out 😄 |
| 04:24 |
Blockhead256[m] |
there's always someone |
| 04:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yep. Rule 34 was meant to be tautological, not imperative. |
| 04:26 |
Guest97 |
Peter_Lankton, you are not being completely honest here. The objections to you hosting your mods on your personal git server were denied by rubenwardy and the CDB due to the adult NSFW content that you insist on hosting next to your minetest mod code. There is an inherent danger for some by linking to such content. That you refuse to get this |
| 04:26 |
Guest97 |
is on you. The core devs have clearly stated that adult, NSFW content is not going to be allowed. |
| 04:26 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I can't say I like that it happened that an 18+ server got to the server list, but it did wake people up to the reality of an unmoderated list being very much bad for children's protection and start an actual discussion about what to do abouit that |
| 04:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> heh, well, starting discussions has never been much of our weak point... |
| 04:28 |
Peter_Lankton |
i gotta be honest though, i dont like that vore is considered sexual. i mean some kids games have it like that example. i mean i get that its a fetish. but i am still kinda sad about the "devour mod" thread on the forum being deleted. i think that was a vore mod someone made in 2019. but i dont even think it was sexual. but now i will never get to know what it was like because i didnt think to download it and they only |
| 04:28 |
Peter_Lankton |
ever posted it to the forum. |
| 04:29 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Guest97: I'm not sure if you have been following this discussion, but we are telling Peter_Lankton here to hard separate his content between identities |
| 04:30 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Peter_Lankton: You may not like it, but that's living by society's rules for you to be honest |
| 04:30 |
Peter_Lankton |
Guest97: no i completely understand it. he doesnt want me linking to a nsfw site. fine. then i wont put my mods there. its that simple. do you think that makes me selfish? just curious. |
| 04:30 |
Guest97 |
The forum thread to which you refer was locked due to your threats of hacking members of this community, and encouraging others to do so also. You pay passive aggressive, and two months in, you still are not honest about your intentions, and continue to complain that adult, NSFW content is not allowed. Is this still an issue for you? You |
| 04:30 |
Guest97 |
threatened to fork MT and leave, yet here you still are..... |
| 04:31 |
Peter_Lankton |
huh the toxic forum user is in the irc now |
| 04:31 |
Peter_Lankton |
and no i asked they delete the thread because i was sick of it. |
| 04:31 |
Peter_Lankton |
making a fork takes time. and i still like to talk in the irc sometimes. |
| 04:32 |
Peter_Lankton |
and asked they delete my forum account. and they did. |
| 04:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'm hoping you can still find an amicable way to move forward, despite the difficulties that we've had in the past. |
| 04:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If Minetest were a specific, opinionated game for a specific, targeted audience, things might be a lot simpler, though I think they're better they way they are, but we certainly pay for it in confusion and ambiguity. |
| 04:34 |
Guest97 |
After launching tirades about how dispicable everything in this community is, and threatening to encourage users to use a hacked client to ruin the community. What gives? Selfish, only if you advertise a mod, and refuse to release it because you don't like the recommended channels. Yeah, that comes off as selfish. But hey, you wrote, don't |
| 04:34 |
Guest97 |
want to share it, so nobody will ever care about a mod they can't use. This is just simple common sense. BTW, check out the creatures mod. Don't remember who made it, but furries galore.... |
| 04:34 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah. i guess im just trying to leave with a good impression. thats why i am here. if i do leave, i dont wanna be bitter. because if i am bitter then i might encourage users to use a hacked client. but i dont like being bitter. |
| 04:36 |
Guest97 |
Peter_Lankton, I've been a member of this community for over 8 years, and I have always encouraged others to play by the rules. If that makes me toxic...... |
| 04:36 |
Peter_Lankton |
Guest97: did someone make a thread on the forum complaining about our IRC convo or something? you seem to be ignorant on the matter. i never said i would refuse to release my mods. just that i dont want to put them on github. |
| 04:36 |
Guest97 |
And here come the threats of hacking. Why so serious, bitterpuss? |
| 04:37 |
Peter_Lankton |
ok well how about we stop pretending that cheat clients dont exist and sweep it under the rug. instead maybe try to create server side anti cheat solutions. like say... an anti noclip. |
| 04:37 |
Peter_Lankton |
what is your forum username? why are you hiding? |
| 04:38 |
Peter_Lankton |
btw, the namecalling makes you toxic. |
| 04:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The "Guest##" names come from people using kiwiIRC, don't they? |
| 04:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> IIRC it's an option for people who don't want to or can't install client software to get on IRC |
| 04:38 |
Guest97 |
Whether they exist has nothing to do with you encouraging people to use them to hack servers. You threatening to encourage others to use a cheat client is obviously recognizing that cheat clients exist. But your threats are what is making the bad impression of you, not that cheat clients exist. |
| 04:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> kind of annoying that people seem to end up named Guest## here though ... does it not give you an opportunity to set a nick? |
| 04:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's hard enough when people have established but different names across github, IRC, and the forums already... |
| 04:40 |
Guest97 |
ShadMOrdre, is that good enough. Yes, I am the very vocal forum user. And now I'm the very vocal IRC user. I am not the issue. You have an issue with me because I have called you out. That's the only truth here. |
| 04:40 |
Peter_Lankton |
its not that i would tell people to hack other peoples servers. i would just share that client with the people i introduce minetest to. i would not tell them to use them. they would be welcome to use them on my server though. which i might want if i make an auto builder client mod. |
| 04:40 |
Blockhead256[m] |
if that's bridge through to Libera then Libera might not like that..? idk much about IRC, can you make a username pattern that's not registerable through nickserv |
| 04:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Hmm, it felt like it was because of a usability issue with IRC or something. Something that should be correctable... |
| 04:42 |
Guest97 |
This is not what you stated in the forum thread. You made threats. This is not taken lightly. |
| 04:42 |
Peter_Lankton |
maybe i did. because i was receiving threats. |
| 04:43 |
Peter_Lankton |
seriously why are you here? you stalking me or something? what brought you here? |
| 04:44 |
Guest97 |
And in your own question today, about hosting a private server, you were not up front about why there are folks that do not want to connect to it. In your previous comments, you've alluded to tracking IPs, and who knows what else. Your attitude, your threats, your entire approach has soured members of this community. Instead of complaining |
| 04:44 |
Guest97 |
that you aren't getting what YOU want, how about learning the community, how IT works, and how YOU should fit within it, instead of trying to dictate how we are to act. |
| 04:44 |
Guest97 |
Why are you here? |
| 04:45 |
Peter_Lankton |
i already answered that question. now answer mine. |
| 04:46 |
Peter_Lankton |
not sure what you mean by tracking ips. thats public info. is it really bad that i tried to track down those who were fucking with my server? |
| 04:46 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dont mean track down like get real life identities though. i dont want that. |
| 04:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> One of the reasons why a lot of us like FOSS is that there is more focus on personal freedom instead of the need to conform. |
| 04:48 |
Peter_Lankton |
exactly. its the freedom i want. one of the reason i do use minetest instead of minecraft is because of how mods work. i like that servers can send custom block/node data to the client. |
| 04:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, well, I recall one person was fucking with your server because they misinterpreted what they were seeing that was caused by a different person fucking with your server ... so mistakes were made 😄 |
| 04:49 |
Peter_Lankton |
yep. his logic was stupid though. because if it really was me that was doing it, i would have banned his spam bots way sooner. but i was not even awake yet. |
| 04:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't think he was doing it with the expectation of "winning" anything though 😄 |
| 04:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Er, the guy I know, not the original attacker. |
| 04:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That original attack ... was surprisingly effective. |
| 04:50 |
Guest97 |
Living by the rules is not a need to conform, it is what has brought humanity forward. Freedom to use software, freedom to see the source, and freedom, as in personal liberty, are not one and the same. Please quit confusing a far larger concept with one's personal desire to use freely available software, free as in open source, free as in you |
| 04:50 |
Guest97 |
didn't pay a dime for it. |
| 04:51 |
Guest97 |
I don't condone the guerilla tactics either. But I won't condemn someone for doing something that they thought was for their own safety. And... it did bring needed attention to an acute problem. |
| 04:52 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dunno. to borrow words from guest here, the 2 people attacking my server soured my view of the minetest community. that and the few toxic users i have seen and interacted with. i get that they are a minority but still. its just human nature. the negative stuff sticks with us |
| 04:52 |
Blockhead256[m] |
yeah those freedoms aren't the same |
| 04:52 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but they're all good freedoms that I think most people here want |
| 04:52 |
Blockhead256[m] |
if we didn't value any of those freedoms we'd all play Minceraft probably |
| 04:53 |
Guest97 |
Peter, you named your server 18+. If the vore aspect of your server was not adult oriented, then this would be an issue. You proclaimed that you don't want children connecting, that you only wanted 18+. You cannot then complain that others interpret your server as being adult. |
| 04:53 |
Peter_Lankton |
WHAT??? when did i say that? you're just putting words in my mouth now. i never complained that people think my server is adult. thats the point!! |
| 04:54 |
Peter_Lankton |
i was open about it from the start. i feel like if i didnt have 18+ in my server name, all of this fuss would probably have not happened. but i dont wanna hide that. |
| 04:55 |
Blockhead256[m] |
complaint about vore being considered sexual above should not be conflated with the messaging of the server, which is claimed to have always been 18+ |
| 04:55 |
Guest97 |
Yes, I am vocal, and not always nice. You brought the negative from the beginning, so don't complain when others respond to you negatively. I didn't start the negative, but certainly express a strong dislike of an adult 18+ server being listed in the server list. That is not a personal attack on you, it is a statement against an action. |
| 04:55 |
Guest97 |
That you committed the action, and complained bitterly that others were uncomfortable is reflective of your own initial negativity. |
| 04:56 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah the way i see it, some vore is sexual some is not. the stuff on my server definitely was sexual. hence why i labled it 18+ |
| 04:57 |
Guest97 |
I never stated vore = sex, for the record. It's the 18+ Vore that leads any reasonable adult to understand that this might mean sexual content. Some children might even already understand that. |
| 04:58 |
Peter_Lankton |
well look. at this point, i think we can agree on one thing. which is that my server should NOT be on the list. tho perhaps for different reasons. i just dont like the players i was getting. |
| 04:58 |
Guest97 |
Labeling something as 18+, and complaining that others interpret that to mean sex content. You just stated this above. |
| 04:59 |
Peter_Lankton |
no thats not an issue. otherwise people would complain about the toaster server which also says 18+ but i dont think they have adult content. they just dont want kids on. |
| 04:59 |
Guest97 |
I am also willing to concede that as long as adult content remains off limits to the server list, this is great. I get that you can't patrol every node of every world, but at least we aren't advertising it. |
| 05:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Always nice to see one hiding behind a guest name |
| 05:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, I guess it is actually kind of jumping to conclusions to assume that "18+" means "sexual content" technically, though it's usually the case when we're talking internet stuff... It'd be kind of weird if someone joined an 18+-only community and then had to complain that there's NO sexual content, it's just a bunch of adults standing around talking about how it's nice to be away from all the kids for a while. |
| 05:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> wsor: ShadMOdre did identify themselves |
| 05:01 |
Guest97 |
I even advocated for a separate official public list, not enabled by default, and only available by going to a website to get the address of the list, as a way to enable users such as yourself to still be able to advertise publicly. Just not by default. I was, and kinda am, in some very tiny way, on your side. |
| 05:01 |
Guest97 |
But threats because you disagree with someone is childish, and will begat action in return. Please understand this. |
| 05:02 |
Guest97 |
It isn |
| 05:03 |
Guest97 |
It isn't jumping to conclusions when the server op clearly states sex content. |
| 05:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The standards for listing on the public server list are very different from, say, the standards on CDB, and I think this can be surprising for users who might expect uniform moderation across at least everything in the main menu. |
| 05:03 |
Peter_Lankton |
well that is something i agree with. a separate serverlist. i sorta made one. tho its just a static json file right now. and ok i admit the threats were bad. but i was in a bad mood. i had felt threatened in that situation thanks to another member implying that cops would bust down my door for hosting an adult only video game server. |
| 05:04 |
Peter_Lankton |
well not really implying. directly stating rather. |
| 05:04 |
Guest97 |
Jonathan, to whom are you referring? Peter Lankton has hid behind several names between here and the forum. Don |
| 05:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The server list is IIRC quite a bit older than CDB, so it was built for a smaller community with fewer resources, less expectation of constant monitoring, and a stronger assumption that people tended to know who to contact directly if there was a problem. |
| 05:04 |
Guest97 |
Don't ya know? |
| 05:04 |
|
calcul0n joined #minetest |
| 05:05 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah i dont really feel like choosing a persistent identity i guess. |
| 05:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Not everybody does. |
| 05:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> just don't become the guy who has a new name every week and it gets confusing 😄 |
| 05:06 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dont really know what name i even want. i chose timmy on my server because it was the first that came to my head. same with this irc name which is just a spongebob reference |
| 05:07 |
Guest97 |
I don't hide my ident, I just use webchat IRC. I've used my ShadMOrdre ID here as well, before. Just didn't tonight. And for the record, there are many forum accounts that are merely ghost accounts. Some modders have used this to falsely inflate interest in their mod. Don't ya know? I've seen a lot in 8 years in this community. |
| 05:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If you make it to like age 20 without a stable online identity then it might be difficult to ever settle on one 😄 |
| 05:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> As long as you have a name per platform/interest, not really an issue. Heck the forum has different fields for in game name, guthub, etc |
| 05:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> guthub: source control hosting for gastroenterologists. |
| 05:09 |
Peter_Lankton |
perhaps. i guess i dont really want a stable one. also i just now got my codeberg confirmation emails. for some reason it took really long. i sent one to my self hosted email server and that was instant. |
| 05:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> To be fair, on mobile |
| 05:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> 😄 |
| 05:09 |
Guest97 |
I've used ShadMOrdre for around 30 years now. I'm too lazy to make up something else, and don't want to try to remember endless account names and passwords. Too many accounts causes loss of freedom, cause when you forget the password to your venmo, what ya gonna do but cry that you lost your money..... |
| 05:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You don't need a stable name anyway if you're already "that guy who's famous for the vore server" anyway 😏 |
| 05:10 |
Peter_Lankton |
i guess i dont like the idea of being tracked across multiple sites over time. i dont even use the same emails now because i use a alias service. |
| 05:10 |
Guest97 |
But we still don't have a valid ID for whom to complain about the 18+ vore server. lol |
| 05:11 |
Peter_Lankton |
well i do wanna have a public contact email. in fact, right now that server is on hiatus. i am using the reject_all_players "game" to show players a message which has my email. but i should put it on the server and my site too. |
| 05:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> IIRC most servers out there don't have reliable means of contact. |
| 05:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Often the best you can do is connect to the server, do an /admin or try to figure out who's in charge by chat... |
| 05:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> if you don't want to be associated with the server, or you've been banned, your only recourse often is just to hope you've got a friend who still has some access... |
| 05:13 |
Peter_Lankton |
true. someone did propose it. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13461 in fact, that someone is ME. ok i will admit. that is my github account lol. |
| 05:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> JasonTable? Is Robbie your brother? |
| 05:15 |
Peter_Lankton |
Robbie Rotten? yep hes my brother. |
| 05:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Oh, wait, it was Bobby, not Robbie ... https://xkcd.com/327/ |
| 05:16 |
Peter_Lankton |
oh yeah i remember that! |
| 05:17 |
Peter_Lankton |
i like my idea of an email parameter because i think email should be the slandered for that kind of communication. someone could put a discord or twitter in the server description. but what if you dont wanna use those lol. |
| 05:18 |
Guest97 |
I don't care for real info about server, just a familiar enough community name, the name by which everyone knows you, like rubenwardy, Wuzzy, Krock, ShadMOrdre, MisterE, and others, who go by well established handles. |
| 05:18 |
Peter_Lankton |
well i guess when you are new to the community, you dont really have an established handle yet. |
| 05:18 |
Guest97 |
But seriously??? You HAVE a github, and are arguing about not using the service. You are not very consistent and that is cause to not have much faith in you. |
| 05:19 |
Peter_Lankton |
yes i have a github. ive had it for a few years now. but i only created my git server this year. and now that i have it, i would rather use it. |
| 05:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> So you don't have any faith in wuzzy, tenplus1, etc as well? |
| 05:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, when somebody is new, it's not surprising if they haven't laid down well established patterns yet. It's fair to let people try shit and learn for a bit too... |
| 05:21 |
Peter_Lankton |
well looks like i can migrate my repos to codeberg. tho it doesnt have the mirror option like gitea does. |
| 05:22 |
Peter_Lankton |
Guest97 you werent here earlier but we talked about the idea of putting my not NSFW mods on codeberg. |
| 05:22 |
Guest97 |
Established handles come by using one. Using multiple IDs for the same topics of conversation doesn't help establish anything. Just because I'm Guest97 at the moment, is not what I'm referring to. It's the multitude of IDs you've used in just the 1-2 months this drama has been unfolding. Peter_Lankton, thus far, has been the one ID you've |
| 05:22 |
Guest97 |
used most consistently. |
| 05:22 |
Peter_Lankton |
lol double negative "not not safe for work" |
| 05:22 |
Guest97 |
I |
| 05:23 |
Peter_Lankton |
i get what you mean. peter lankton has been my most consistent one. other than my server admin name Timmy. i had thought about joining this server with a different name. but in a way where the reverse DNS gives away who it is. |
| 05:24 |
muurkha |
TIMMAH |
| 05:24 |
|
SwAgGeR_6_9 joined #minetest |
| 05:24 |
Guest97 |
I've been keeping up through the IRC logs. You're fierce opposition to using, and now, dishonesty about your years old account on github is why I have no faith in Peter_Lankton. |
| 05:24 |
SwAgGeR_6_9 |
like this |
| 05:24 |
Blockhead256[m] |
xban2 tracks same-IP users and puts them in the same record |
| 05:24 |
Guest97 |
Jonathan, don't equate that mistrust with Wuzzy or Tenplus1, they've been VERY consistent over the years. |
| 05:25 |
Guest97 |
Wuzzy ardent support of FOSS, and almost hatred of anything proprietary is well established. |
| 05:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Lol, so your full of it. They both have github accounts but are proponents against not using github |
| 05:26 |
Guest97 |
Tenplus1 as a modder who keeps their projects up to date with the latest engine version is well established. |
| 05:26 |
Peter_Lankton |
well ya know what? i didnt wanna use my github account at first. for example. when you guys first discussed my server. someone asked me to comment on the new guthub issues and i didnt want to. i didnt want my account known yet. now i dont mind. |
| 05:27 |
Guest97 |
Faith in those two is close to faith in rubenwardy and sfan5. |
| 05:28 |
Peter_Lankton |
at the time, i did not want correlation yet because my server was intended to be a surprise to my followers on another site. but i dont really care anymore. so i will say it. that site is youtube. i have a youtube channel. i wanted to share my server with my subscribers. of which, i have more than 1,000. |
| 05:29 |
Peter_Lankton |
and i will admit, when i was angry, i thought about telling those subscribers to use a cheat client. i admit that i am petty. and that was basically a petty revenge idea i told myself to feel better. but it didnt really work. which is why i came back here to talk more. |
| 05:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> 🤷 cool I guess. |
| 05:30 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dont want to leave the community bitter. and so far i think our convo has helped. |
| 05:30 |
Guest97 |
So has all this drama been simply to drive subscriber numbers up? Advertising through negative publicity. Kinda trashy, but I guess that would actually be the point.... |
| 05:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I still don't see why you have to leave it at all. |
| 05:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Sure you have a detractor, but hey, we all do 😄 |
| 05:30 |
Peter_Lankton |
if it was, i would have told you my channel. but i still haven't. |
| 05:31 |
Guest97 |
I |
| 05:31 |
Peter_Lankton |
you really think i would try to get subscribers from MINETEST? some obscure game that nobody cares about and most people would probably just call a minecraft knock off? i got my subscribers from making minecraft videos. if i want more, i will make more minecraft videos. |
| 05:31 |
Guest97 |
I am not a detractor. More of a John Deere......... LOL |
| 05:32 |
muurkha |
Guest97: I wish you would stop hassling Peter_Lankton. he's a bit paranoid, but so would you be if what happened to him happened to you |
| 05:32 |
Guest97 |
I actually didn't start the drama. Only responded with my own opinions |
| 05:32 |
muurkha |
you're not the detractor, though, Festus is |
| 05:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I dunno, I think everybody is calming down now, and that's a good thing ... but it just takes some time. |
| 05:33 |
Peter_Lankton |
thank you muurkha. its true i am paranoid. and the threats of police showing up at my door from the forum doesn't help. |
| 05:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Festus is one of those people who I don't think I've every talked to, and they probably don't even know that I exist, but I just assume they already dislike me 😆 |
| 05:34 |
Guest97 |
I've just been the one to keep Peter_Lankton, and by extension, the rest of the community as involved in PLs prank. Now I am bitter. I've been used by some attention whore shmuck trying to drive up advert dollars from Google, a platform they trashed in above statements, but it's just a youtuber lookin for $$$$. Yeah, I guess all the FOSS |
| 05:34 |
Guest97 |
talk is just B$ for the dollarsssssszzzzzzzzzz! |
| 05:34 |
muurkha |
now that they're banned from the forums for harassing Peter_Lankton probably you'll never know |
| 05:35 |
Guest97 |
Peter_Lankton, if we are to lighten the drama, have a laugh.... |
| 05:35 |
Guest97 |
I'm razzin you about the youtube stuff |
| 05:35 |
muurkha |
Guest97: I don't think you can make $$$$ with 1000 subscribers tho |
| 05:35 |
Peter_Lankton |
my channel is not even monitized. i make VORE VIDEOS. you think i could get monetized? u thinking im one of those prank channels? thats kinda funny actually. |
| 05:35 |
muurkha |
even if it wasn't a porn channel |
| 05:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'm pretty sure that YT wouldn't monetize a vore channel because they're terrified of where that money might end up. |
| 05:36 |
muurkha |
oh, I didn't realize you were joking |
| 05:36 |
Guest97 |
Festus lives in Thailand, and for those who don't read, that means more conservative than your average southern baptist church in the bible belt of the USA. |
| 05:36 |
muurkha |
Warr1024: I think it's more that their advertisers would complain |
| 05:37 |
Peter_Lankton |
"if we are to lighten the drama, have a laugh...." lol i didnt notice you said that until now. well thats good that we are having a laugh. because what you said was kinda funny. |
| 05:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha, well, obviously yes, but I was joking too. |
| 05:37 |
muurkha |
isn't Thailand famous for prostitution and lesbian clubs? |
| 05:37 |
Guest97 |
Liege laws, and strict anti drug, anti p.rn, and well, read up some..... Festus is practicing safe Minetesting. It's in their best interest. We don't live there, and don't understand the consequences. Let up a bit. |
| 05:37 |
Peter_Lankton |
muurkha: who was banned from the minetest forum? |
| 05:38 |
muurkha |
Peter_Lankton: Festus was banned |
| 05:38 |
Guest97 |
Festus has been reprimanded by a good portion of this community for the not cool guerilla tactics. |
| 05:38 |
Peter_Lankton |
he was? was it a temporary ban? because his page doesnt say hes banned. |
| 05:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't find the paradox of a deeply conservative culture on the surface with some of the wildest forms of cutting loose hidden beneath all that surprising ... supposedly even here in the USA you can observe a similar phenomenon. |
| 05:40 |
muurkha |
maybe they got reinstated? |
| 05:40 |
muurkha |
Warr1024: I don't think those things are hidden |
| 05:41 |
muurkha |
but I've never been to Thailand |
| 05:41 |
muurkha |
so my views are probbably skewed |
| 05:41 |
Guest97 |
yes, temp ban. Festus been around. Has a rep. And has learned a lesson. To a degree. But, have we all???? |
| 05:42 |
Peter_Lankton |
well at least that is something then. thx for telling me. because i thought he just completely got away with it. |
| 05:42 |
Guest97 |
Know any Mormons? Utah p.rn downloads capital. And the preachers daughter, well, we know bout that one too..... |
| 05:43 |
Guest97 |
Regardless of where Festus lives, think about from this perspective. |
| 05:44 |
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| 05:44 |
Guest97 |
How many of us truly want Minetest to grow? To get better, bigger, and ...? |
| 05:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There is definitely a balance to be maintained, and in my experience, the prevailing culture of the place where you happen to live is not under any particular obligation to aim for a healthy balance 😄 |
| 05:46 |
muurkha |
Guest97: but Salt Lake is definitely not the open prostitution and lesbian clubs capital of the US Southwest |
| 05:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I, for one, do not want to see minetest grow. I'm actually kind of proud that my server docker image is only 10MB, and the media for my game is only 900kb. |
| 05:46 |
Guest97 |
Because it is so child friendly, it finds it's way into schools. Schools will drive adoption of Minetest. Schools will need to know that the software isn't going to expose them to liability. Kid plays MT at school, logs into 18+ server, parent sues school. TikTok anyone? |
| 05:47 |
Peter_Lankton |
i get your point about the school thing. tho i think personally they should blank out the server list in the config. actually maybe thats a fork someone else could make. a minetest education edition which has a default server list of "" and maybe is preloaded with mesecons mod. |
| 05:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, there is no more dangerous force in the world than the anger of a parent who has just been forced to explain something uncomfortable to their kid 😄 |
| 05:48 |
Guest97 |
Schools are NOT going to adopt adult MT anymore than they adopted Opensim, with it's "wide open, wild west, FOSS, freedom to do whatever I want" mentality. They will actual be driven to the corporate controlled MC, because they are willing to "pass the buck" knowing MS will not get sued for the content in their "regulated" video game. |
| 05:48 |
Peter_Lankton |
sorry should have clarified. i dont mean my adult fork. i mean someone else should make a minetest education edition or something lol. |
| 05:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, it's kind of sad to think about how education funding is going toward liability/risk mitigation instead of like actual education ... but when you consider how many products you consume where money went into branding and advertising instead of improving the product ... that's just how our world works right now... |
| 05:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There are some significant education projects in MT, but as Shad points out, it's very hard to compete with the 800lb gorilla of Microsoft, and the security that that brings... |
| 05:51 |
Guest97 |
Actually, an adult should make an adult fork of the child friendly Minetest. Minetest benefits from all the ad revenue MS sinks into MC. No denying this. That ad revenue isn't supporting adults playing video games, it's pointed at kids, who will be attracted to the cartoon like 8bit graphics. |
| 05:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't think it would get much traction if somebody just published and distributed an education edition on a "here ya go" kind of basis; I think that kind of thing gets better traction as like a consulting package. |
| 05:52 |
muurkha |
Guest97: what's Opensim? |
| 05:52 |
Guest97 |
If we are to show the Ed community that MT is the better choice, we have to "BE" the better choice. This means rules. Standards. Enforcement. Ratings. |
| 05:53 |
muurkha |
bullshit |
| 05:53 |
Guest97 |
Else we are only ever going to be a niche project that will die with it's contributors. |
| 05:53 |
Kimapr |
<Peter_Lankton> "yep. his logic was stupid though..." <- it was a bit silly of me yes, however! You then griefed my server twice (2 times) by replacing a large area with people's stuff with nsfw imagery |
| 05:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, in that case then I'm happy to leave that sort of thing to the Edu fork. |
| 05:53 |
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| 05:54 |
muurkha |
the whole point of free software is freedom, not rules, standards, enforcement, and ratings |
| 05:54 |
muurkha |
if that's what you want, go back to AOL or whatever |
| 05:55 |
Kimapr |
i'd argue this is worse; all i did pretty much is make your server inaccesible for like a few hours or something, and spam the logs a bit |
| 05:55 |
Guest97 |
muurkha, i appreciate where MT is right now. But, we all diminish what it really is. Framing in the context of MC and 10MB game limits what a 10MB voxel engine with Lua scripting is really capable of. |
| 05:57 |
Guest97 |
We were all so proud of CERNs involvement just a couple of years back, were we not? CERN choose MT, not MC. CERN people. CERN. That is SOMETHING. |
| 05:58 |
muurkha |
that's probably because they didn't have to deal with rules, standards, enforcement, and ratings |
| 05:59 |
muurkha |
can you imagine CERN trying to ensure their published research never ran afoul of creationist Karens? |
| 06:00 |
muurkha |
or publishing it somewhere that had a policy of unpublishing things if concerned parents complained? |
| 06:02 |
Peter_Lankton |
Kimapr: ok maybe what i did was worse. i admit it was immature. once again i was still seething. however i would like to put that behind us now. but i do have to ask. dont you keep backups? i prepared for the worst. my adult server shuts down to back up every 8 hours. i guess going forward, i would like to make communication easier. so that you can just email me instead of building a server crasher with lua controllers |
| 06:02 |
Peter_Lankton |
whenever you have a grievance. look what we both did was bad. but i would like to try to look at the positives. for example, you taught me that i should disable lua controllers. maybe the way we went about it was wrong, but i do think its good to bring attention to exploits. so that they can be fixed. the source code for my bot is available on my git server. |
| 06:02 |
muurkha |
CERN wants to be the one setting the standards, not attempting to comply with them |
| 06:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Re: backups ... I've been using postgresql, in part because it's pretty easy to take online consistent backups without shutting down the server ... but then I recently learned that even sqlite supports them with its "vacuum into" command. |
| 06:04 |
muurkha |
the alternative is "we have retracted this cosmology paper because it insensitively suggested the universe was more than 6000 years old" |
| 06:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> re: exploits and hack/cheat clients ... I will ban people from my server if they're caught cheating, but I don't disallow the alternative clients because they actually do offer some useful accessibility features. |
| 06:05 |
Peter_Lankton |
perhaps limit the rate of drawing somehow. that would at least slow down grief attempts. other than that, im not sure what can be done. a "no greifing" rule doesnt really make sense on a r/place clone. what if the whole canvas is used? should no one else be able to use it? |
| 06:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, I always thought that griefing was sort of part of the idea between r/place ... I thought they originally rate limited people so that people would have to think critically about how they compete for space... |
| 06:06 |
Peter_Lankton |
i guess i really care about these semantics. i just like consistency. its why i want the server list to have a set of rules if my server is not allowed to be there. ya see, Guest97, when it comes to some things, i do like rules and order. if there was a rule that stated no sexual servers, i would never have put my server on that list in the first place. |
| 06:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The problem with rules is that they're HARD to do. People are always expecting there to be some kind of code that will predict and constraint the future behavior of humans who are inherently messy. |
| 06:08 |
Peter_Lankton |
with any online community i create and run, i fully agree with the "make rules as needed" mindset. i will have some rules like dont be racist. then if i wanna ban someone for doing something i didnt think to put in the rules, i will, then i will add that to the rules. |
| 06:08 |
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| 06:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Often the best we can do is some guidelines, but we have to rely on people to work within the spirit of those guidelines, be flexible where necessary, and sometimes moderators have to toss people out if they can't hold up their end of the deal, or are trying to exploit the system. |
| 06:09 |
Kimapr |
<Peter_Lankton> "kimapr: ok maybe what i did..." <- lol no i dont have backups |
| 06:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, there's always an implicit rule that "it's against the rules to make me have to make new rules" 😄 |
| 06:10 |
Kimapr |
well, other than png snapshots of the thing scattered all over |
| 06:10 |
muurkha |
make backups! |
| 06:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Kimapr not having backups? 100% on-brand. |
| 06:10 |
Peter_Lankton |
well i guess this can be a lession then. always keep a backup. i know that may sound rude. but it needs to be said. |
| 06:10 |
muurkha |
heh |
| 06:10 |
Kimapr |
Warr1024: i actually have that listed in rules |
| 06:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, meanwhile, I have rotating live backups, and I publish CC0-licensed public snapshots of my server map every ~2 hours 😆 |
| 06:11 |
Peter_Lankton |
OH WAIT actually, you could restore an old png! using my tool! it was used for bad. well now it can be used for good. my tool can put an old image ban on ur canvas. and like i said, it is public and open source. |
| 06:11 |
Peter_Lankton |
back* not ban |
| 06:12 |
Kimapr |
well i have admin privs so i don't need clientside bots to do this |
| 06:13 |
Kimapr |
just have to read a png and write it to map with 🅱oxelmanips |
| 06:13 |
Peter_Lankton |
true. can your server do that server side though? paste images into the canvas? i thought you meant you have PNGs of the old canvases. |
| 06:13 |
Kimapr |
that functionality doesn't exist yet but it's feasible |
| 06:13 |
Kimapr |
however |
| 06:13 |
Peter_Lankton |
oh you do. well thats fine if you do it yourself. but you are welcome to use my bot code if you want. saves you the work. |
| 06:13 |
Kimapr |
that requires me caring enough to do it |
| 06:14 |
Peter_Lankton |
true lol |
| 06:14 |
Guest97 |
I just know that trying to apply FOSS logic of fanatical freedom equates to nothing working. If your boss said you could do what you want, you wouldn't work, and your company would go broke. It's that simple. Without some rules, we would still be animals. For those that want to tangent on that thought, don't. |
| 06:15 |
Peter_Lankton |
animals???? UWU??? nah im joking. i agree rules are necessary and thats all i will say about that. |
| 06:15 |
Guest97 |
And the only way a community can rule by consensus is to have discussion in the first place, in order to reach said consensus, so that appropriate guidelines can be set. |
| 06:17 |
Warr1024 |
okay, was wondering when the other shoe would drop |
| 06:17 |
Warr1024 |
MTDiscord hadn't relayed anything since "back* not ban" |
| 06:17 |
Guest97 |
See, even former "adversaries" can learn a little civility and come to consensus. :) |
| 06:19 |
Peter_Lankton |
actually maybe my fork should not be an adult fork. i had an idea for a minetest server password manager of sorts. imagine you had one master password and the game uses it to make a password for each server. maybe it hashes the master password along with the server domain name and ur username and fills that into the password field automatically when you register/join a server. (it also lets you extract said hash for |
| 06:19 |
Peter_Lankton |
use with normal minetest) |
| 06:20 |
Warr1024 |
I used hash-deriving passwords for a while but it was very annoying when I needed to change a password for ONE site but not all of them. I ended up realizing that just randomly generating passwords and storing them encrypted was equivalent to the BS I had to do to make a deriving scheme work under those conditions. |
| 06:20 |
Kimapr |
what if my server exists on mutiple domain names and IPs? |
| 06:20 |
Peter_Lankton |
i will admit i am not an expert tho. not sure how secure it is. |
| 06:21 |
Warr1024 |
I just use --go shortcuts, and for encryption, I use a combination of full disk encryption, and "it's just a game anyway" |
| 06:22 |
Peter_Lankton |
Kimapr: yeah i admit that would be a problem i guess another way to approach it would be a list of username and passwords to enter but the idea i have would prevent use of duplicate passwords on each server. |
| 06:22 |
Warr1024 |
Thankfully MT's use of SRP does provide at least some protection against repeated password use. |
| 06:23 |
Guest97 |
Best way to start contributing to a new project, is to learn said project, and learn where something could be useful. If you could make MT run in a distributed way, like Opensim, and could hyperjump from server to server, then maybe a central login repo would work. But, username/passwords can only be centrally managed by a trust worthy source, |
| 06:23 |
Guest97 |
otherwise, it's bad advise. Not web2.0 mentality. Real world practicality. I don't hand the keys to my house to ANYONE who doesn't live in said house. Just not smart. Ever. No matter how you try to spin it. Stoopidest thing ever. |
| 06:25 |
Peter_Lankton |
i did want to contribute to minetest. i learned it, learned how to mod. and i made an anti noclip mod. i think that would be pretty useful. |
| 06:25 |
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| 06:25 |
Warr1024 |
I think if we needed a more complex multi-party trust model, we wouldn't want it based on shared secrets anyway. |
| 06:25 |
Peter_Lankton |
a way to jump from server to server would be cool. especially for those with multiple servers. |
| 06:25 |
Guest97 |
Which is why I encourage you to just post it somewhere, not on a private server. |
| 06:26 |
Warr1024 |
Ideally, I think server-exclusive content that's not publicly available and open source should be almost a total non-thing. |
| 06:27 |
Warr1024 |
I've got a few mods that I haven't open sourced yet but they're really pushing the boundary between code and mere configuration. |
| 06:27 |
Peter_Lankton |
thing is, i dont want my git to be private. technically its public in that anyone with the url can access the content. however it is effectively private because it has no SEO. i wish it did. i wish you could just google "minetest anti noclip mod" and see my repo in the first page of results. |
| 06:27 |
Guest97 |
If Meta has it's way, it will wall off the its VR garden. Opensim would've been a good platform, but it's viewer was limited by Linden Lab Second Life Client license. MT does not have these constraints. Server and Client in one package and opensource. |
| 06:30 |
Peter_Lankton |
i am grateful that the metaverse thing seems to be failing. it sounded super dystopian the way they were pushing it. i do like the idea of online 3d hangouts tho. |
| 06:31 |
Guest97 |
Putting code in a public repository is a different thing than trying to ensure one's own server meets Googles search engine. One is not tied to the other, except in your own mind. Putting code on a public repo and refusing to put the code on public repo because Google SEO........ My car won't start because the gas |
| 06:31 |
Guest97 |
station down the road doesn't carry all brands of fuel, only one, and I don't like that brand, so I can't drive my car because I refuse to put gas in it.......... See the pattern |
| 06:34 |
Peter_Lankton |
nope i dont. i dont refuse to use github because it has better seo. im just saying i wish my site did. but my site is public. it is a public repo. not a private one. this is what a private repo looks like. (on codeberg at least) https://codeberg.org/TimmyTable/my-private-repo |
| 06:34 |
Peter_Lankton |
its more like i think one grocery store is bad. so i avoid it and go shop at another one instead which has all the items i want. |
| 06:36 |
Guest97 |
Except that that grocery store is your back yard, and no one else really wants to shop there, because there is only a few options. So they go to the store that has options, the one everyone else uses, because it's more convenient. |
| 06:36 |
Guest97 |
Public vs private repo is not the same as using a trusted public git host to host public repos. Not a privately owned/controlled git server. Quit confusing the two. |
| 06:38 |
Peter_Lankton |
i see nothing wrong with self hosting though. i like the independence. |
| 06:39 |
Peter_Lankton |
and by public you just mean popular. services like gitlah github and codeberg could be privately owned as well. |
| 06:40 |
Peter_Lankton |
maybe if my creative plot server gets popular lol, we can apply the same logic there. "whats that? you wanna show me ur house u made in minetest but its on ur own server? i dont trust that. you should have built it on ____plot server because thats a trusted well known server." |
| 06:41 |
muurkha |
gitlah? |
| 06:41 |
Peter_Lankton |
that was typo lol |
| 06:41 |
Peter_Lankton |
"whats that? you needed the extra building space? too bad" |
| 06:41 |
Guest97 |
Put your code where you want. Nobody will use it, because you don't want to put it where people feel safer to download it. Your opinions about what others are willing or unwilling to do aren't going to get your mod out there if you aren't going to share it. Put the code on the forum. But in your personal nonSEO server, it will be nothing |
| 06:41 |
Guest97 |
more that talk. Screenshots/code, or it doesn't exist, and all discussion about it is pointless. |
| 06:43 |
Peter_Lankton |
well if they dont trust my server and dont wanna examine the source code to make sure its not malware, its not my problem. i dont really care if my mods are well known or not. i kinda dont wanna waste my time making a new github or codeberg account to share my stuff so that i can share it on contentdb or something. |
| 06:44 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> doesn't cdb supporr any git host whatsoever? |
| 06:44 |
Peter_Lankton |
i think with the same logic that prohibits my site from being used on CDB could also be used for my git hub. my git hub has nsfw stuff too so probably should not be linked on CDB. |
| 06:44 |
Peter_Lankton |
they do but im not allowed to use my git server. |
| 06:45 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> why not? |
| 06:45 |
Peter_Lankton |
because its on my site which has nsfw stuff on it. |
| 06:45 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> make another one? |
| 06:45 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dont really wanna get another domain |
| 06:45 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> wouldn't a subdomain work as well? |
| 06:46 |
muurkha |
oh, "gitlab" |
| 06:46 |
Peter_Lankton |
i guess it would technically be a subsubdomain then. which im not sure i can do. i dont really have my own domain. i use a dynamic dns service so i have a free subdomain |
| 06:47 |
muurkha |
occurs to me that if someone is filing takedown requests on microsoft's behalf against minetest on the google play store, it's probably well past time to stop depending on github for hosting |
| 06:47 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> wait whar |
| 06:47 |
Peter_Lankton |
i guess it comes down to time again. i dont really wanna make another server nor do i wanna make a new account on a popular site. |
| 06:47 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> so "macrofox.org" is not your domain? |
| 06:48 |
Peter_Lankton |
nope just the bowels subdomain. well also inside. subdomain but i use that for something else. |
| 06:49 |
Peter_Lankton |
i was shocked to find that domain in a ddns provider so i just had to use it lol. because i like macro foxes. |
| 06:50 |
muurkha |
especially from the inside? |
| 06:51 |
Peter_Lankton |
uwu yep |
| 06:51 |
muurkha |
:3 |
| 06:52 |
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| 06:53 |
Guest97 |
CDB supports direct zip uploads. You don't to link to anything. |
| 06:54 |
Peter_Lankton |
thats a good point. tho git is really convenient with how CDB auto updates with new commits. |
| 06:55 |
Guest97 |
It is, but again, this isn't a CDB won't allow it issue, its a you don't want to post it elsewhere issue. |
| 06:57 |
Guest97 |
As for commits, you can upload newer zips, and tell CDB to use the latest uploaded zip. It's a way to share, without trying to drive users to a personal server that may or may not be safe. Opensource code hosted on a locked up server, where the code running on the server is not viewable in realtime...... Safe as in server safe, not open |
| 06:57 |
Guest97 |
source mod code safe. |
| 06:58 |
Peter_Lankton |
i suppose. i guess i just need to find another way of getting my mod discovered. well once again, thats if i care enough to. maybe i could make the mod advertise itself to those who join my server or something. i guess i dont like feeling like im being forced to use another service. but at the same time, i dont wanna try to force Ruben to let me use my git site. i respect that he doesnt want it linked to and thats |
| 06:58 |
Peter_Lankton |
fine. so the end result is that it simply doesnt get shared. |
| 07:00 |
Guest97 |
again. this isn't because CDB won't link to your NSFW private server. It's because you only want to host the code there. That's fine. But be honest about why your mod won't be shared. |
| 07:01 |
Peter_Lankton |
i guess you are right in a way. when he did remove my links, i got mad and removed all my mods from that site in a fit of rage, then asked my account be deleted. i dont really like upload zips manually each time. i already do that for itch.io games and its tedious. |
| 07:02 |
Guest97 |
TBH, there are users who won't DL a zip. So you're still stuck at square one. |
| 07:03 |
Peter_Lankton |
well at the end of the day, you cant please everyone. |
| 07:04 |
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| 07:04 |
Guest97 |
Muurkha, I would agree about MS and github, and hosting any FOSS project there. Where do you think OpenAI got all the free code to train ChatGPT? And do you think attribution will be given? And yes, MS, in the USA, can lay claim to MT source, and remove/block access, regardless of clean room MT code. Who's got the $$ to disagree? |
| 07:05 |
muurkha |
Guest97: you can probably train your neural networks on any code you can get your hands on, regardless of copyright |
| 07:06 |
muurkha |
hosting on github might make it easier to find but surely all kinds of labs are tapped into the firehoses of npm, gitlab, etc. |
| 07:06 |
muurkha |
but that's not what I'm talking about |
| 07:07 |
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| 07:07 |
Peter_Lankton |
i mean its something you CAN do. personally its something i think is kinda unethical though. i dont like ClosedAI either. |
| 07:09 |
Guest97 |
MS has the resources to search the web they helped build, and damn near host a large segment of. They can certainly afford a few servers in a farm, and some naive coder to code a way to scour the git sites for all the free code available. Google and Facebook frequently host code jams to "find" the next superstar coder, while retaining all |
| 07:09 |
Guest97 |
rights to all code generated. Great way to dupe the web2.0 crowd into providing invaluable data about what you shit for dinner last night so they can build an AI to replace you..... |
| 07:11 |
Guest97 |
We built Facebooks database for free, and look how they've used it against us. "But it's to better serve advertising." is the biggest "look something shiny" moment since you learned you had ADHD. |
| 07:12 |
Guest97 |
You've been distracted. Now let us use this info the way we really intend......... |
| 07:13 |
Peter_Lankton |
im glad i deleted my facebook years ago. |
| 07:13 |
Guest97 |
I never signed up in the first place |
| 07:14 |
Guest97 |
Tried to convince everyone their insurance rates were determined by how many drunk pics they posted. Was told I was full of shit. Now my insurance rates are up because of all the idiots posting pot logos and drunk pics |
| 07:14 |
Guest97 |
And I don't even, never have Facebooked. |
| 07:15 |
Guest97 |
Don't trust that dude. |
| 07:15 |
Guest97 |
Back to MT. |
| 07:15 |
Guest97 |
It's a better convo than complaining about corporate behomoths ruining everything for the rest of us. |
| 07:16 |
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| 07:16 |
muurkha |
My point was that if this particular corporate behemoth is taking aim at MT, it's well past time to stop depending on them for hosting |
| 07:17 |
muurkha |
of MT, anyway |
| 07:17 |
muurkha |
hosting other things might be fine |
| 07:17 |
Guest97 |
Any ideas for a story driven RPG in MT. So many have tried, and there are sandbox RPGs, but nothing with a story. We need a story to make MT a worthy game. We need non-gamers to help realize the power of a 3D database with scriptable cells. |
| 07:19 |
Peter_Lankton |
i could make a story rpg in minetest but uhhh... well the topic would be niche lets just say. actually im not that good with story stuff. most of my games are also sandboxes. |
| 07:20 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> what's this discussion about? you know you're not actually banned from CDB right, the issue was just the source URL |
| 07:21 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah i know im not banned. i had just asked to be deleted because i was angry at the time |
| 07:22 |
Guest97 |
murrkha, I would agree. I personally advocate for an official Minetest git repo. rubenwardy has CDB, sfan5 has serverlist, sofar made media server, and others have made mapper, web mapper, iso mapper, schem editor, and database cleaner. Standalone app or web service, an MT centric git host would be the preferred choice. BUT...... must |
| 07:22 |
Guest97 |
be trusted user, must be here for long haul, must be willing to pay for hosting, or have access to servers that can, like at a university, or FOSS org that supports opensource, is trusted, and yaddayaddayadda |
| 07:22 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dont really wanna use any other git right now so i just decided to not put things there. |
| 07:23 |
Guest97 |
No niche stuff. Something with wide appeal. Something for the masses. Not the shady corners of our minds. |
| 07:23 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah thats best left to someone else then :P |
| 07:25 |
Guest97 |
Point of discussion has been hashing out truth, and finding consensus amongst community members. Returning civility to the conversation. |
| 07:25 |
Guest97 |
Hi ROllerozxa, ShadMOrdre lurking as Guest97. |
| 07:26 |
Guest97 |
Also other random tidbits of wisdom and discussion |
| 07:28 |
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| 07:31 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah im probably gonna get off of here soon. im glad we could work out our differences. the main takeaway is that i may or may not direct my followers to a custom fork. most likely it wont be a cheat client. unless i want them to use it on MY server for some specific reason like an autobuilder. i wont suggest they use it on other servers. in fact, cheat client or not, i will likely share it preconfigured with my custom |
| 07:31 |
Peter_Lankton |
server list. so they wont see the other servers and be tempted to cheat there. do you think this is reasonable Guest97? |
| 07:34 |
Guest97 |
All things considering, you are best to either remain part of this community, accept that there are standards and codes of conduct that we all try to follow, and work within the established community. Continuing to state that you might still direct users to what is considered a "cheat" client is still going to earn you more distrust. |
| 07:35 |
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| 07:35 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> directing people to a cheat client? honestly I'd be all for that |
| 07:35 |
Peter_Lankton |
i suppose. but i cant help but think that its only the people who wanna pretend it doesnt exist that would be upset. |
| 07:36 |
Guest97 |
As for putting things behind us, I'm not usually one to call it all good after one brief discussion, when I've seen this continue in various forms, under various IDs all claiming innocence and acting passive aggressively. It's going to take just as much time to correct as it took to screw it up in the first place. Time tells much, and your |
| 07:36 |
Guest97 |
personal behavior within this community, on IRC, in the forum, and how you conduct yourself when others express displeasure or outright rage towards you. |
| 07:38 |
Guest97 |
It's not about it's existance, it's about who made it, and why it was made, and what it encourages. If you are ok with cheating, well, keep stacking up distrust..... |
| 07:39 |
Peter_Lankton |
well i think the cheat client i would be using was made by someone who just wanted to use it on some anarchy servers. im not saying id make my own. just share the dragonfire client |
| 07:39 |
Guest97 |
Source for MT is available. You can compile at will. You can change code and compile at will. What is a "cheat" client in the first place? Learn before doing. Listen before speaking. |
| 07:41 |
Guest97 |
Talking of cheat clients in most gamer circles already gets you negative attention. Only cheaters want to cheat. Therefore, only cheaters want cheat clients. ROllerozxa, this isn't personal, it's simply an expressed sentiment that is mostly true. |
| 07:42 |
Guest97 |
Get the source code. Compile it yourself. Isn't that the purpose of FOSS? |
| 07:44 |
Peter_Lankton |
at this point i am not really interested in trust. its already gone anyway. i may stay in the community. or i might leave. ive been thinking about that for a while now. if i leave, i just wont talk here anymore. i already left CDB and forum. but i will continue to do stuff with minetest whenever i feel like it. |
| 07:44 |
Guest97 |
So again, what is a cheat client? In this case, a copy of MT meant to circumvent the "rules" of the server. Do you want your server hacked? You've been complaining of this for some time now, Peter_Lankton. Do you want your server hacked? Neither do I. Take your "cheat" client and get lost........ Treat others how you wish to |
| 07:44 |
Guest97 |
be treated. How you treat others is what you tell them about how you want them to treat you. |
| 07:45 |
Guest97 |
I'm not trying to chase you away, or discourage you. |
| 07:46 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dont really care if people use cheats on my server. i dont think they harm me due to the nature of my server. if anything, the only reason i would use dragonfire is because its client mods can do way more. like place nodes and move around. |
| 07:46 |
Guest97 |
Instead, it's quite the opposite. I'm simply trying to guide you away from what comes off as continued threats of encouraging a cheat client whose history and purpose you know nothing about. |
| 07:47 |
Peter_Lankton |
sure in the past Kimapr had used a cheat client to noclip and place a server crasher in the unprotected area below the spawn, but i learned from that. now there is anti noclip and no luacontrollers. the way i see it, i just need to adapt. |
| 07:47 |
Kimapr |
actually the noclip part is possible with a legit client. |
| 07:48 |
Guest97 |
And very importantly, don't let yourself get so upset over something so unimportant. It's not worth the anxiety. Others have offered great advise only to get negative reactions from you, as seems to be happening now, again. |
| 07:48 |
Kimapr |
i only used a cheat client to place ONE (1) node mid-air |
| 07:48 |
Kimapr |
to noclip through the spawn area i can just dig... |
| 07:49 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah i know i should not get so anxous. however at the same time, other people should not try to make me anxious like LRV or whatever his name is telling me i will go to jail for just running my server. even if he was just trying to give advice, he didnt need to sound so threatening about it. |
| 07:50 |
Guest97 |
And remember, actions taken by members of this community were to protect this community. That you were the one against whom action was taken must be viewed in that context alone. You came in with questionable motives, and it has taken time to get truth from you about much of any of this. |
| 07:51 |
Guest97 |
LRV did not say anything about calling cops. Get your facts straight!!! |
| 07:51 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> Peter_Lankton: I think you should take anything that LRV individual says with a huge grain of salt |
| 07:51 |
Peter_Lankton |
i think the only helpful advice i ever got was https://github.com/JasonTable/hexcol/issues/2 this |
| 07:51 |
Peter_Lankton |
no he did not say he was gonna call cops. i know that. but he still implied id be going to jail for running my server. |
| 07:51 |
Guest97 |
They and I both suggested that you should ensure for yourself that your plans were legally defensible by seeking proper legal advise. |
| 07:52 |
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| 07:52 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> I'd recommend to add LRV as a foe on the forums but unfortunately phpbb doesn't allow ignoring users that exist in some sort of "staff" group |
| 07:52 |
Guest97 |
That is not an attack. It is fact. Advise. You should listen. To not listen is to assume great risk for yourself. |
| 07:53 |
Peter_Lankton |
it started with me asking about the adult fork, him saying i should password protect the serverlist, then i said that seems excessive then he was like "well then the cops will be showing up" or something like that i forget the exact wording. that is clearly meant to intimidate. not be helpful. |
| 07:53 |
Guest97 |
No implication was made about you going to jail. Get your facts straight. |
| 07:54 |
Guest97 |
Telling you that if you do something illegal can get you into trouble is like saying if you step into water you will get wet. A fact. Nothing more. Nothing less. |
| 07:54 |
Peter_Lankton |
he has bias against me anyway. he was celebrating that festus was able to get my server removed. |
| 07:55 |
Peter_Lankton |
ROllerozxa doesnt really matter now. i had staff delete my account. (again) i dont wanna interact with that cesspool. |
| 07:56 |
Peter_Lankton |
well we are getting nowhere now. maybe he was trying to give me advice but he should have worded it better. which i think he did later. but his scare tactic had already put me in a bad mood. so i was not really willing to listen at that point. |
| 07:57 |
Guest97 |
Many of us a happy that action was taken. To protect US, the members of the community and users of MT. You created a server with an obvious target in the name, without simply asking first, in a game that is for all intents and purposes a game for children, or at least heavily marketed to such. You made yourself a target. |
| 07:57 |
Guest97 |
Quit crying that others took aim |
| 07:58 |
Peter_Lankton |
"in a game that is for all intents" i almost read that as "in a game that is for all infants" which also fits lol. |
| 07:58 |
Guest97 |
You put yourself in a bad mood. The words of random internet users on a screen should never affect you in the real world |
| 07:58 |
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| 07:59 |
Peter_Lankton |
you should really look in a mirror. because my words seem to have effected you. we are not emotionless robots ya know. |
| 08:01 |
Guest97 |
If you had properly done your research, LRVs words would have been more palatable. LRV is a moderator on the forum. You don't have to like them anymore than rubenwardy. But authority is authority. LRV has been around long enough to apparently earn the trust of celeron55. |
| 08:01 |
Kimapr |
"it's just words on a screen" is what assholes on the internets say when called out for being a ass |
| 08:01 |
Peter_Lankton |
that means nothing to me. |
| 08:01 |
Guest97 |
My emotions are in check. But I will always call out bullshit, and certainly adult content where not really appropriate. |
| 08:02 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> honestly? I'll say it, LRV is full of shit |
| 08:03 |
Guest97 |
Honestly, none of us "know" any other. We are all just random MT players. |
| 08:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> LRV is a helper (a rank below moderator) on the forums. I think he was originally instated to help deal with topic move requests. Why would he be "full of shit"? If anybody, including forum staff, misbehaves, feel free to report them. |
| 08:05 |
Guest97 |
I've learned the hard way, and am still learning even in this interaction with you all, that sometimes, I should just keep my mouth shut when it comes to my personal opinions about folks within my "community", here in MT, as well as, IRL. Neighbors can really suck sometimes, but if I voice my displeasure, and they be crazy enough, I've only |
| 08:05 |
Guest97 |
painted a target on myself. So I just try not to anymore. |
| 08:06 |
Guest97 |
LRV is just as entitled to express their opinion and displeasure as the rest of us. Are you full of shit too, ROllerozxa? You help with CDB, does that make you any more or less than LRV? |
| 08:08 |
Guest97 |
Sometimes (MOST FUCKING TIMES) I'm a huge ass also. Depends on how close to home the topic is, how relevant to my real life. |
| 08:08 |
Peter_Lankton |
oh its not much but uh... ROllerozxa i guess i should apologize for having called you were childish. i think its clear that you are not. i guess its hard to get across in text form but i am being sincere. Sorry about that. You dont have to accept my apology but if i do leave, i wanna end on a good note. |
| 08:09 |
Kimapr |
your leaving? |
| 08:09 |
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| 08:10 |
Guest97 |
Instead of this, well.... I might leave..... Why not just stick around, and build your community like you wanted to. Just don't do the cheat client shit, and you know, keep links 18+, errr, I mean child safe....errr I mean, lets just keep it professional. |
| 08:11 |
Peter_Lankton |
well my probably will be leaving at some point. ive been thinking about it. at this point the irc is the only place i interact with so i may stop visiting and that will be that. |
| 08:12 |
Peter_Lankton |
well i simply dont feel welcome. i dont wanna stick around. i can still use minetest and have my followers on my minetest server without being involved in the community. i already have a bad reputation here anyway. |
| 08:13 |
ROllerozxa |
Peter_Lankton: I don't know if that's something you need to apologise for but sure, apology accepted. :) |
| 08:13 |
Guest97 |
So you sit around and think about it all day. This is bullshit. If you want to leave, then what the fuck are you still here for. If you want to stay, as several of us have encouraged, then stop with that fucking whiny ass bullshit. Jeesus Fing Christ already |
| 08:14 |
Peter_Lankton |
so i am not allowed to think? |
| 08:15 |
Peter_Lankton |
how about you stop being rude for a second? this is why i dont wanna be involved. i cant stand the toxic vibes you give off. |
| 08:15 |
Guest97 |
I wouldn't say a bad rep, just a rocky start. You're not the first, and won't be the last. Seen MCLs posts recently. You ain't got nothin to worry about..... |
| 08:15 |
Kimapr |
Peter_Lankton: yeah your arent now.... https://wuzzy.neocities.org/comics/NE_en_170.png |
| 08:16 |
Guest97 |
It's the wishy washy attitude that "well, I don't know if I ....." gives off. I'm not toxic. Just rather decisive. Make a decision. Otherwise, it comes off as ........ |
| 08:16 |
ROllerozxa |
also Guest97: I probably have my fair share of shitfullness too, but I don't threaten people that the police will break down their door for doing something that's most likely not a crime anyways |
| 08:18 |
Peter_Lankton |
ok so you dont like people thinking about things. fine. thats not my problem. i think thinking is a good thing. not thinking often leads to my angry posts. i wanna stop being angry and think things through. |
| 08:18 |
Kimapr |
"im not toxic" - every toxic person |
| 08:19 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dont think i said i was not toxic. i mean i try not to be. but i admit i am bad at it sometimes. |
| 08:21 |
Guest97 |
Like I said, LRV did NOT threaten to have the police knock down doors. WE BOTH encouraged Peter_Lankton to seek proper legal advise, and to follow the rules set forth by the core devs in regards to posted links and behavior, and to use standard practices when trying to ensure that only18+ had access. Nothing there is a threat. If encouraging |
| 08:21 |
Guest97 |
you to protect yourself is a threat, no matter how worded, then you are the one with the issue. I think you allow yourself to frame everything within the context of your sensitivity to your vore stuff. This causes you to make yourself a victim of a nonissue. |
| 08:22 |
Peter_Lankton |
i feel like i am talking to chatgpt now. you arent even listening. |
| 08:24 |
Guest97 |
You misinterpret simple statements into personal attacks. I didn't say don't think. Read the words correctly. I said I am decisive. I think it through, and then decide. You act like if we don't treat you well, then you leave. You decide. Don't blame it on us. Take responsibility, make a fucking decision, or don't. And again, |
| 08:24 |
Guest97 |
your getting stuck on irrelevant bullshit. |
| 08:24 |
Peter_Lankton |
i dont wanna repeat myself. it may have not been a threat, but it felt like one. it was certainly made with the intent to intimidate. |
| 08:25 |
Kimapr |
Peter_Lankton: i was actually talking about Guest97 |
| 08:25 |
Guest97 |
I have listened. I have listened to this conversation since it started almost two months ago. I've been one of the most vocal. |
| 08:25 |
Guest97 |
You don't seem to listen. |
| 08:26 |
Guest97 |
It was not made with intent to intimidate. Your perception is what is flawed here, not the rather innocuous advise given by LRV, myself, and a couple of others. |
| 08:26 |
Peter_Lankton |
im guessing english is not your primary language then. you say you think it through. well thats what i am doing right now. so i have a time limit for how long i should take then? |
| 08:26 |
Peter_Lankton |
Kimapr: gotcha |
| 08:26 |
Guest97 |
See, you keep getting distracted by this one thing. |
| 08:27 |
Peter_Lankton |
what thing? |
| 08:27 |
Guest97 |
Peter, I don't sit the fuck around saying to everyone, well, I think I'm gonna go to the store, while doing nothing more than sitting there telling everyone that I think I |
| 08:28 |
Guest97 |
am gonna go to the store, while sitting there tel....... |
| 08:30 |
Guest97 |
I get the fuck up and go to the store. But again, Pete, stick around or dont'. Your call. But ONLY you are responsible for that choice. Don't blame it on the reception you set yourself up to receive from some in this community. We aren't the cause of you staying or leaving. It is all on you. It's the mentality behind some of your |
| 08:30 |
Guest97 |
thinking that I find off putting, not you personally. |
| 08:31 |
Peter_Lankton |
whatever im done arguing. maybe i will go out and find a brick wall to argue with. i feel like that will be a more productive use of my time. |
| 08:32 |
Guest97 |
I know people who've wasted their whole life telling others they've been thinking about going to college. Meanwhile my kids kid is graduating college, and the person is still telling folks they're thinking about going to college. I think at some point, you either go, or you don't. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words. So....shit |
| 08:32 |
Guest97 |
or get off the pot. |
| 08:33 |
Guest97 |
And for the record, my ChatGPT handle is aplsdkfjapsodivuzpbnx cseio;fuvna, just in case you need to report this conversation to the AI police for accuracy and offense. :) |
| 08:34 |
Kimapr |
what the hell do shops and colleges have to do with leaving this community |
| 08:34 |
Guest97 |
Peter, like I stated earlier, you should not let this get you anxious. |
| 08:35 |
Peter_Lankton |
well then thats something we must agree to disagree on. i think people should have time to think over important decisions. not that this is important but still. thats just a different in philosophy we have i guess. |
| 08:35 |
Guest97 |
We are having conversation. I am actually trying to encourage you to just decide to stick around, and yes, being a bit of a prick. but not trying to piss you off. |
| 08:35 |
Guest97 |
well, point taken. |
| 08:35 |
Peter_Lankton |
trying to convince me to stick around by making me not want to stick around. weird how that works. |
| 08:36 |
Guest97 |
but don't spend your time being offensive, and painting targets on yourself. You can't blame those who would for taking aim when you are basically saying, "Look here, I'm a target, Shoot me!" |
| 08:38 |
Guest97 |
Consider that as strongly as you feel about this decision, there are those who feel just as strongly about their own convictions, and this can lead to friction. If I silence myself, who wins? Not me..... |
| 08:39 |
Peter_Lankton |
im not really anxious anymore. just kinda irritated. and now you are basically telling me to not do my nsfw stuff? i do it because i enjoy it. well i used to anyway. i would like to keep doing it. and since its not welcome in the minetest community, i wont share it there. i learned my lession |
| 08:41 |
Guest97 |
I did not say shit about you not doing NSFW stuff. Get your facts straight. I said, Lets keep it professional. That is not the same. You continue to victimize yourself when you take words out of context, misquote them, or otherwise assume something that is clearly NOT stated/ |
| 08:42 |
Peter_Lankton |
but do note that i do not regret having been on the server list in the first place. i got to meet a wonderful person who also likes vore and we are good friends now. |
| 08:42 |
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| 08:43 |
Peter_Lankton |
yeah but thats the same tho right? keeping it professional is not having nsfw stuff. look if you dont want me to share it in the community, thats fine. just say so. i already agreed to stop sharing it there at this point. and as such, i dont have much of a reason to stick around. |
| 08:43 |
Guest97 |
You again are wrong about vore not being welcome. Not by me, but I see others respond to you and the vore stuff. Obviously you have a bit of an audience. Asking you to ensure that adult stuff is kept away from kids is not the same, and you can't seem to separate one from the other. |
| 08:44 |
Peter_Lankton |
nope. its clearly not welcome here at all. the devour mod thread on the forum was deleted. and i dont even think that mod was sexual. |
| 08:45 |
Guest97 |
Just because adult stuff is not advertised on official channels does not mean it is not allowed |
| 08:46 |
Ingar |
there's a minetest section on loverslab now ? |
| 08:46 |
Guest97 |
learn the difference between reducing ones own personal liability for hosting links, and whether the content itself has an audience. Several forum members responded in your favor, or even revealing their interest. |
| 08:47 |
Peter_Lankton |
im not sure i get what you mean. do you think i plan to stop using mintest entirely? thats not what i mean. i mean that i dont wanna interact with the community. what is the community? its the forum, the CDB, the serverlist, the IRC, the discord. its clear that vore is at least not welcome on the forum and CDB. |
| 08:47 |
Guest97 |
Just because official MT wont link to adult stuff, doesn't mean there isn't a community of adults who play MT with other adults. You need to separate the two, and realize one is not the other. |
| 08:48 |
Guest97 |
I understand full that you mean the community, not the software. |
| 08:48 |
Peter_Lankton |
i asked about separating then and got intimidated with potential jail time. |
| 08:49 |
Guest97 |
You again state false facts. |
| 08:49 |
Peter_Lankton |
clearly the MT com wants to be a all ages group with no adult only content. thats fine. but that also means i cant share my adult content with the adults in the community. |
| 08:49 |
Guest97 |
You were not intimidated with jail time. Get your facts straight! |
| 08:49 |
Guest97 |
Encouraging you to take measures to protect yourself is not intimidating, or is it? |
| 08:50 |
Guest97 |
It only means you need to find a different venue in which to share, like say your discord community, or whatever. |
| 08:51 |
Peter_Lankton |
thats... the... point? i still intend to share with my own community. i dont have a discord but i wanna share my minetest creations with my followers. |
| 08:52 |
Guest97 |
You continue to confuse the willingness of MT to assume liability for hosting links to your NSFW content with the community and it's potential willingness to have an adult section. |
| 08:53 |
Peter_Lankton |
"I'm sorry, but as an AI language model, I do not poses a physical form and therefore do not have ears with which I can ear you with. I am therefore incapable of listening to you." |
| 08:54 |
Peter_Lankton |
if they want an adult section, then they host it and deal with the legal trouble. i want nothing to do with it. |
| 08:55 |
Peter_Lankton |
my followers who use minetest will not be "the adult minetest community" it will be the "[my server name] community" or the "[my youtube name] community" |
| 08:56 |
Peter_Lankton |
the type of people who are here for my content. not for minetest. |
| 08:57 |
Peter_Lankton |
by here i dont mean here here like this irc. i mean here like on my server. |
| 08:58 |
Guest97 |
sounds like you've made up your mind so why continue to sit here and wax poetic..... |
| 08:59 |
Peter_Lankton |
yep it seems ive had. and you've helped me decide. perhaps in a way you were not intending. |
| 09:00 |
Peter_Lankton |
here is my anti noclip mod. if you dont want cheaters noclipping on ur server, this will help. https://bowels-of-the.macrofox.org/git/mt-server-mods/anti-noclip this is the only time i will share it. if you dont trust my git server, that is your problem. not mine. |
| 09:02 |
Peter_Lankton |
i wanted to leave on a nicer note but oh well. at least i made amends with the one person i wronged. even if it was something super minor. |
| 09:02 |
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Peter_Lankton left #minetest |
| 09:03 |
Guest97 |
I care about this project and community. I don't make vague threats or act passive aggressively. I am consistent. Good luck. Not gonna click the link. You are so adamant about that git host that I would click the link if you paid me at this point. I can code. If I need anti noclip, I'll code one. |
| 09:03 |
Kimapr |
link? huh. what link? |
| 09:04 |
Kimapr |
i need clicky link |
| 09:04 |
Guest97 |
did you not see the link pete posted? to their private git server. me thinks they were trying to bait me at this point. |
| 09:05 |
Guest97 |
I wouldn't recommend clicking the link. |
| 09:06 |
Guest97 |
previous post to similar link leads to BS. read IRC logs over last few days. |
| 09:06 |
Kimapr |
wher? |
| 09:07 |
Kimapr |
hmm matrix brig broke |
| 09:07 |
Guest97 |
Let it go. Not worth it. |
| 09:07 |
Kimapr |
i clicky the link |
| 09:08 |
Guest97 |
If pete was reputable, they would be so damn insistent on only using private links..... |
| 09:08 |
Kimapr |
because they don't trust anyone else? |
| 09:08 |
Guest97 |
i'm done |
| 09:09 |
Guest97 |
well, |
| 09:09 |
Guest97 |
you see how much drama they continue to try to stir up |
| 09:09 |
Guest97 |
devs decided couple weeks ago now |
| 09:09 |
Guest97 |
still, first question of todays log, "should I share?" |
| 09:10 |
Guest97 |
If you gotta ask, .... |
| 09:10 |
Guest97 |
share or don't |
| 09:10 |
Guest97 |
otherwise you trying to do what |
| 09:10 |
Guest97 |
troll |
| 09:10 |
Guest97 |
dunno |
| 09:10 |
Guest97 |
don't care |
| 09:12 |
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| 09:14 |
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| 09:18 |
Guest97 |
Ask yourself, if you don't trust anyone, are you going to post a controversial server in a public server list so anyone can join your personal server? |
| 09:19 |
Guest97 |
I don't run a server. Why? I don't want to deal with the management. Trust also plays a part in this decision. |
| 09:20 |
Guest97 |
Publicly listing a server is a admission of implicit trust, I would think. |
| 09:21 |
Guest97 |
Well, I'm sure I've dug my hole a little deeper this evening. Guess I should call it a night too. |
| 09:21 |
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| 09:50 |
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| 09:59 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Since it was mentioned earlier: If you own your own domain name you can subdomain it, it's straightforward with a DNS record. Dynamic DNS? Depends on the tech behind it - but in any case new DNS records take time to propagate, and free DNS is unlikely to do it fast. My domain registrar takes about an hour. |
| 09:59 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Another one: What's the problem with Luacontrollers? Is it easy to write a program that |
| 09:59 |
Blockhead256[m] |
crashes the server? Or is it something else like lag? Plenty of servers use |
| 09:59 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Luacontrollers, for instance Pandorabox. |
| 10:02 |
Blockhead256[m] |
And of course, never waste your time telling people to make their mind up about leaving or staying. This is the internet, they can have a 'presence' or not and it makes little difference really. And often they're just egotistical or wasting your time by thinking out loud. |
| 10:06 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> it's trivial to write a program that instantly grinds a server to a halt |
| 10:30 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but there is a time execution limit on Luacontrollers as I understood it |
| 10:30 |
Blockhead256[m] |
it just makes no sense for this to be an issue given how popular mesecons is |
| 10:30 |
Blockhead256[m] |
has the issue been reported at least? |
| 10:31 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> there's an instruction count limit, but an instruction can take arbitrary amounts of time |
| 10:32 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> like if you concatenate obscenely large strings together |
| 10:33 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> printing those makes it even worse as the server also chokes on IO |
| 10:34 |
MTDiscord |
<kimapr> i think some people have already reported this, but no fix's been found |
| 10:34 |
Blockhead256[m] |
hmm it does sound like it approaches the halting problem... |
| 10:35 |
Blockhead256[m] |
aren't there string size limits? too hard to enforce maybe? |
| 10:35 |
Kimapr |
https://github.com/minetest-mods/mesecons/issues/516 |
| 10:38 |
Kimapr |
it's got nothing to do with the halting problem |
| 10:39 |
Kimapr |
lua simply doesn't provide necessary tooling to properly stop lua code sandboxed in lua from exhausting all resources |
| 10:40 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I'm just talking about pre-emptively detecting bad programs, like "Scan the below code to figure out if it exhausts memory" |
| 10:40 |
Kimapr |
terrible idea |
| 10:40 |
Blockhead256[m] |
exactly |
| 10:41 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but yeah I don't see where Lua has any tools like memory limitations |
| 10:41 |
Blockhead256[m] |
hmm doesn't the mem table for luacontrollers have a size limit? |
| 10:42 |
Kimapr |
you don't have to use the mem table at all to exhaust resources |
| 10:42 |
calcul0n |
iirc yes, based on an approximated size |
| 10:42 |
Kimapr |
locals exist |
| 10:42 |
Blockhead256[m] |
this is true, but aren't locals somehow attached to the sandbox environment in a way that can be measured? |
| 10:43 |
Kimapr |
measured? no |
| 10:43 |
Blockhead256[m] |
locals don't go in _G I suppose |
| 10:43 |
Kimapr |
well unless you use the debug library and do something like setting a hook to execute on every single instruction |
| 10:43 |
Kimapr |
then checking the locals |
| 10:43 |
Kimapr |
would require insecure env |
| 10:43 |
Blockhead256[m] |
my naive thought is to measure the sandbox's _G or similar |
| 10:44 |
Kimapr |
but at that point it'd be much better to use an external C library |
| 10:44 |
Blockhead256[m] |
one that will supervise the execution itself? |
| 10:44 |
Kimapr |
you CAN set a metatable on the luacontroller's global env |
| 10:45 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but surely the env could undo that? |
| 10:45 |
Kimapr |
Blockhead256[m]: yea, might have to patch lua itself |
| 10:45 |
Kimapr |
Blockhead256[m]: luacs don't even have access to get/setmetatable, so no |
| 10:46 |
Blockhead256[m] |
ok so with setmetatable on the global env, couldn't you hook it to check for new variables? I'm not sure you could, unless maybe with the debug library as you say |
| 10:47 |
Blockhead256[m] |
or rather: setmetatable would work for globals only, you'd be out of luck for locals |
| 10:47 |
Kimapr |
local vars don't touch the global env at all |
| 10:47 |
Kimapr |
and you can still do a big mess just locals |
| 10:48 |
Blockhead256[m] |
yeah, just replace `x = "."` with `local x = "."` in the issue thread code |
| 10:50 |
Blockhead256[m] |
it's not possible to globally override operators like = and .. in Lua is it? or apply changes to all string operations via the string table? |
| 10:51 |
Blockhead256[m] |
if everything were a table made through a defined constructor that sets a metatable to hook and check for memory limits maybe |
| 10:51 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but that's onerous |
| 10:51 |
Kimapr |
.. doesn't use metatables iirc |
| 10:52 |
Kimapr |
anyways one proper solution is to implement some sort of VM in lua |
| 10:52 |
Blockhead256[m] |
concat is one of the operations available to metatables |
| 10:52 |
Kimapr |
maybe not a lua VM, but then you'll break all existing luacs |
| 10:52 |
Blockhead256[m] |
so yes, .. can use metatables |
| 10:53 |
Blockhead256[m] |
yeah the thing is most solutions in the theoretical "solution space" will break existing Luacontrollers, overtly or subtly |
| 10:53 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> It's hard to fix completely, but you can make it harder to break |
| 10:53 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I would say the way to fix the string concatenation problem, though it would involve a breaking change would be: |
| 10:54 |
Blockhead256[m] |
make all strings and tables only constructable via a constructor.. |
| 10:54 |
Blockhead256[m] |
wait how do you do that? |
| 10:54 |
Blockhead256[m] |
yeah it needs a new VM basically as you say |
| 10:54 |
Kimapr |
string ops don't use __string, just checked |
| 10:54 |
Kimapr |
__concat* |
| 10:55 |
Blockhead256[m] |
that would make sense I guess, since those are "natural strings" as opposed to weird tables acting like strings |
| 10:56 |
Blockhead256[m] |
time to replace luacontrollers with PLCs that run ladder logic :D |
| 10:58 |
Kimapr |
Blockhead256[m]: > <@blockhead256:tchncs.de> make all strings and tables only constructable via a constructor.. |
| 10:58 |
Kimapr |
> wait how do you do that? |
| 10:58 |
Kimapr |
basic_robot does a 💀 thing where it basically does string manip on your code and kills your family if it finds certain patterns *anywhere* (even in strings or comments(?)) |
| 11:00 |
Kimapr |
some banned things off the top of my head: `_G`, `..` (yup, can't do concat. also no varargs for you either), `pcall`, etc |
| 11:00 |
Blockhead256[m] |
hmm now what's the logic behind blocking pcall? |
| 11:00 |
Kimapr |
there's 0 logic in this |
| 11:00 |
Kimapr |
literally simply don't include it in the environment |
| 11:01 |
Kimapr |
like wtf even |
| 11:01 |
Blockhead256[m] |
basic_robot is on VE-skyblock IIRC |
| 11:01 |
Blockhead256[m] |
hearing about this restriction makes me glad I never tried it to be honest |
| 11:01 |
Kimapr |
i found multiple vulnerabilities in this |
| 11:01 |
Blockhead256[m] |
Imagine leaving a comment like -- no idea why this works.. in your source and it gets killed |
| 11:02 |
Kimapr |
there's a "execution limit" that is basically just the mod doing string manip to inject a check thingy in every func or loop |
| 11:03 |
Kimapr |
it increments a counter and checks if it's above 50 (💀💀💀 you cant have more than 50 loop iterations 💀💀💀) |
| 11:04 |
Blockhead256[m] |
that last sounds like the most reasonable of them all to be honest. Even if it's kind of arbitrarily decided.. |
| 11:04 |
Kimapr |
no |
| 11:04 |
Kimapr |
nothing about this is reasonable |
| 11:04 |
Kimapr |
50 is absurdly small |
| 11:04 |
Kimapr |
comically even |
| 11:05 |
Kimapr |
so basically i found multiple vulns in this check |
| 11:05 |
Kimapr |
then i was able to trivially lag servers to death |
| 11:06 |
Kimapr |
hit switch, server is dead |
| 11:06 |
Kimapr |
i actually did this accidentially on illuna |
| 11:06 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I was kind of half joking about ladder logic by the way |
| 11:06 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but given its limitations, and its usefulness in the real world where PLCs exist, it may actually be a decent idea |
| 11:07 |
Kimapr |
i was making a robot that exploits another exploit in the mod (💀💀💀💀💀💀) to illegally compress mass amounts of items (65535) into a single stack |
| 11:08 |
Kimapr |
s/another exploit/another bug/ |
| 11:08 |
Blockhead256[m] |
on some servers that's called 'putting the items in a drawer' |
| 11:08 |
Blockhead256[m] |
but well done I guess |
| 11:09 |
Blockhead256[m] |
you sound like you would be good to have on a red team for testing a server |
| 11:09 |
Kimapr |
well there were no drawers iirc |
| 11:10 |
Blockhead256[m] |
I can see we share the same Matrix homeserver. Does Milan admin the Minetest server as well? |
| 11:10 |
Kimapr |
the thing about that bug exploiting bot is that i accidentially made a infinite loop and the server freezed completely until an admin manually restarted it |
| 11:10 |
Kimapr |
Blockhead256[m]: actually yes |
| 11:15 |
Blockhead256[m] |
cool, seems like it would definitely be worth joining then.. |
| 11:15 |
Blockhead256[m] |
(joined) |
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| 11:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The simplest option for a powerful programming language with a safe interpreter would be writing a Lisp |
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| 13:18 |
Blockhead256[m] |
it would be interesting to implement Lua in Lua. Of course, a poor implementation would easily suffer some of the problems kimapr already pointed out |
| 13:37 |
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| 13:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> @Lars bloatlib feature? 🤔 |
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| 13:45 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Such an undertaking would deserve its own project rather than being part of modlib. But yes it is among my projects already. |
| 13:45 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The main issue I currently see that this would be god awful performance-wise, which is why I'd rather write a Lua interpreter in something like Zig. |
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| 14:25 |
kastimonoro |
Hi |
| 14:27 |
kastimonoro |
In minetest creative mode why lava buckets are not infinitive like every other block ? |
| 14:29 |
Blockhead256[m] |
hmm that's an oversight I guess |
| 14:30 |
Blockhead256[m] |
the could could check for creative mode and not empty the bucket |
| 14:30 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I think you'd just use lava sources rather than buckets in creative mode. |
| 14:30 |
kastimonoro |
it was a pain when I was building a hell themed map because I had to open the inventory every time. |
| 14:31 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Just checked, lava sources are in the creative inventory. |
| 14:34 |
kastimonoro |
Oh now I see there is a lava source option never saw that before. But, still what is the point of the lava bucket if it is only for single use. |
| 14:35 |
Blockhead256[m] |
well it is useful for survival mode only then |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kastimonoro: Say you're building a map and want to place lava buckets in chests |
| 14:39 |
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| 14:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Minetest is an Open Source game so of course you don't need to use buckets 😆 |
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| 16:55 |
muurkha |
Blockhead256[m]: yeah, there are a lot of non-Turing-complete formalisms that could be used for that kind of thing |
| 16:56 |
muurkha |
luatic: you could write a Lua compiler in Lua |
| 16:56 |
muurkha |
that compiles Lua to Lua |
| 16:56 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> hmm yes that's pretty trivial lol |
| 16:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> actually I'm wondering how far hacks could get us in this instance |
| 16:57 |
muurkha |
but if you did it in a nontrivial way, you could add new functionality |
| 16:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> this particular issue mostly stems from being unable to hook the string type |
| 16:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but if, at tokenization time, we insert code to hook string creation, we should be golden |
| 16:57 |
muurkha |
like inserting iteration checks in loops, or compiling to explicit continuation-passing mode so that a loop couldn't block the server |
| 16:58 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> of course writing a Lua interpreter in Lua would greatly increase the hackability |
| 16:58 |
muurkha |
but with the compiler you could get both decent performance and linguistic flexibility |
| 16:58 |
Blockhead256[m] |
just make sure you do it in a much smarter way than basic_robot so it doesn't end up as buggy as that did |
| 16:59 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> should I take offense that you're comparing the code I haven't written yet to basic_robot? |
| 16:59 |
* Blockhead256[m] |
slaps forehead |
| 17:00 |
Blockhead256[m] |
of course it's going to be better, this isn't some amateur dev we're talking about |
| 17:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yeah I'm a big boi now |
| 17:02 |
muurkha |
the link https://bowels-of-the.macrofox.org/git/mt-server-mods/anti-noclip looks fine to me |
| 17:02 |
Blockhead256[m] |
also good in the case of luacontrollers is caching the compiled result so you're not re-parsing every time |
| 17:03 |
muurkha |
Guest97: it's a shame that you continued hassling Peter_Lankton |
| 17:05 |
muurkha |
I've only glanced at the code, so I can't be sure there isn't anything malicious in it |
| 17:07 |
muurkha |
it's in a sense fairly intrusive |
| 17:14 |
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| 17:16 |
ShadMOrdre |
muurkha, I actually didn't propose that the mod code was malicious. Didn't really think it was. It was the absolute opposition to even trying to make it available elsewhere, without the appearance of trying to drive traffic to their personal server. Posting links to NSFW, even here in IRC, is against the rules, is it not. No adult content |
| 17:16 |
ShadMOrdre |
links. Am I incorrect here that the core devs have clearly stated this? |
| 17:17 |
muurkha |
ShadMOrdre: relax |
| 17:17 |
muurkha |
your opposition to self-hosting is making me uncomfortable |
| 17:17 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> what's NSFW about his git host in itself, anyways? |
| 17:18 |
ShadMOrdre |
Not upset. Just not going to take it when others misrepresent the truth, are purposely deceptive, and continue to try to get attention when their question was answered weeks ago. |
| 17:18 |
muurkha |
nothing that I can see, ROllerozxa; it's a vanilla gitlab instance |
| 17:18 |
muurkha |
or something similar, maybe gogs or something |
| 17:18 |
ShadMOrdre |
disclaimer: Haven't been to the site, but it link isn't allowed on CDB, I assume someone over there checked out the site, and made that determination. |
| 17:19 |
muurkha |
ah, Gitea |
| 17:19 |
muurkha |
ShadMOrdre: maybe you should assume less and explore more |
| 17:20 |
ShadMOrdre |
I am not against what Pete proposed, just didn't want it so publicly and easily available to our "target" audience. I am not alone in this. |
| 17:20 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> hmm yes, explore the [redacted] of the macrofox |
| 17:21 |
ShadMOrdre |
Petes' actions and behavior, and their constant self victimization about all of this drove Pete away, not members of this community. |
| 17:21 |
muurkha |
you've just spent hours hassling him |
| 17:21 |
muurkha |
like, literally today |
| 17:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (I don't really appreciate the NSFW puns of this self-hosting) |
| 17:21 |
muurkha |
I don't see how you can say it was "not members of this community" |
| 17:22 |
ShadMOrdre |
I did not harass Pete. We had a convo. Then they reverted to the same arguements, after admitting the truth about their own motives and actions. |
| 17:22 |
muurkha |
luatic: it's a bit gross but gutting animals is conventionally considered appropriate to elementary schoolers |
| 17:22 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Is it in the US? |
| 17:23 |
ShadMOrdre |
If engaging someone, even in a sensitive or controversial subject, is harassment, then the internet is the biggest bully on the planet. |
| 17:23 |
muurkha |
I don't think your treatment rose to the level of "harassment" |
| 17:24 |
muurkha |
but you were certainly giving him a hard time, and many of the things you were giving him a hard time about were things like running his own Gitea host |
| 17:24 |
muurkha |
which makes me a lot more uncomfortable than anything he did |
| 17:24 |
muurkha |
so maybe chill? |
| 17:25 |
ShadMOrdre |
I simply wanted Pete to take stock of the way they conducted themselves, and how deceptive and outright dishonest about intentions from the start. Claiming initially that you only wanted to keep kids away, and that there was nothing sexual about the vore stuff, only to come clean about the lie, is not going to earn you any amount of respect. |
| 17:25 |
ShadMOrdre |
Respect begats respect. |
| 17:26 |
ShadMOrdre |
When someone shows disrespect, they are screaming to the world that they want to be disrespected. Treat others as you wish to be treated. Isn't that like in every moral code? |
| 17:26 |
muurkha |
you don't seem to be doing a good job of following that precept |
| 17:27 |
muurkha |
are you "screaming to the world that you want to be disrespected"? |
| 17:27 |
muurkha |
I don't think so, and I don't intend to disrespect you |
| 17:28 |
muurkha |
instead you are following the precept "treat others as you believe they have treated you", which is the opposite |
| 17:28 |
muurkha |
in the relevant cases |
| 17:28 |
muurkha |
I don't recall him having said there was nothing sexual about the vore stuff, but I admit I haven't read everything |
| 17:29 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> "Target audience" you mean humans? This is all I have to say :] |
| 17:29 |
ShadMOrdre |
I only voiced my own unwillingness to visit a privately hosted git due to their seeming objection to using anything else, all the while, having and using a github account to anonimously reply to the initial issue posted by rubenwardy. comments are frequently cleansed, so we have a 1984 rewrite where those who saw info can't unsee it, and those |
| 17:29 |
ShadMOrdre |
who never saw the info can't understand why those who saw the info are so upset. |
| 17:29 |
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| 17:29 |
muurkha |
I do recall him having said there was a nonsexual side to the vore stuff, which makes sense |
| 17:30 |
muurkha |
I mean there's a nonsexual side to every kind of sexuality; my girlfriend and I were just snuggling in bed a little while ago |
| 17:31 |
ShadMOrdre |
GreenXenith, I agree. But we do ride the MS advert stream for MC, and get plenty of publicity out of it. And that advert stream isn't directed at adults, who need to be mindless slaves toiling away the day at a job. That advert stream is directed firmly at the one age group that can get away with whiling away the day in a video game |
| 17:31 |
ShadMOrdre |
haze.... |
| 17:31 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I can understand why ShadMOrdre would be wary of visiting the server of an individual he doesn't trust (that said, Tor exists). |
| 17:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ShadMOrdre: BTW, might you be using a client which auto-breaks your messages? |
| 17:33 |
ShadMOrdre |
Saying there is a nonsexual side to water is just a legitimate. Saying that your 18+ vore server is non sexual, only to reveal that you lied and it is in fact sexual, is well lying. |
| 17:33 |
ShadMOrdre |
lying doesn't get you anywhere |
| 17:34 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Perhaps I am unaware, was the server not always labeled 18+? |
| 17:34 |
muurkha |
it'd be nice to distance ourselves a bit from this "for kids" stuff |
| 17:35 |
ShadMOrdre |
Respect is something earned. Disrespect is also something earned. I do not enter situations disrespectfully, I enter them respectfully. Pete didn't follow this simple precept, continued with disrespect and actual threats, all the while claiming they were threatened by someone simply stating a fact. |
| 17:35 |
muurkha |
I certainly don't want to have to deal with people inferring that I'm trying to make contact with kids on the internet because I'm playing Minetest, simply because I'm an adult childless man |
| 17:35 |
muurkha |
in fact I play Minetest with my girlfriend and her brother, both of whom are over 30 |
| 17:38 |
ShadMOrdre |
Encouraging Pete to take certain, well proven steps to limit access to their 18+ server was met with claims of threatening to call police and jail. This is outright false. Instead, Pete continued to refuse to do the work, and then complained when others offered mere advise. Pete doesn't want to do anything Pete doesn't want to do, including |
| 17:38 |
ShadMOrdre |
taking simple precautionary steps to protect themself. Insisting that their content is not welcome and not allowed, when the only thing not allowed is adding real liability to the core devs. |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Again, perhaps I am just unaware, but did they not label their server as 18+ and have a questionnaire on join? |
| 17:40 |
ShadMOrdre |
I am a middle-aged man with a preteen son. We've played for 8 years. I code more than play, he's bored with MT, prefers Roblox. I am not saying MT is only for kids. I am saying that kids are the primary audience, and again, the M$/MC ad stream that targets kids is our primary mode of recognition. This is simple fact. |
| 17:40 |
rubenwardy |
Do we need to rehash this whole thing? |
| 17:41 |
rubenwardy |
Seems like unnecessary energy |
| 17:41 |
muurkha |
ShadMOrdre: earlier you said, "When someone shows disrespect, they are screaming to the world that they want to be disrespected," but now you're saying, "Respect is something earned." These can't both be true; you are contradicting yourself. |
| 17:41 |
muurkha |
Did you change your mind? |
| 17:42 |
muurkha |
I certainly hope it's not the case that kids are the primary audience for Minetest; I don't want to be associated with a software project whose primary audience is kids. |
| 17:42 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> To be fair, primary audience doesn't necessarily mean target audience |
| 17:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> We don't really control which audience happens to be the majority |
| 17:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> But that also shouldn't stop us from having other priorities |
| 17:45 |
ShadMOrdre |
And as I've stated, I never objected that there was adult content. Just that it should be so easily acceptable. rubenwardy has already taken care of this, weeks ago. pete kept falsely representing themself to try to dupe folks into agreeing to something that they may have already disagreed to. Actions speak louder than words. |
| 17:46 |
ShadMOrdre |
Calling out someones dishonest or misrepresentation should not be seen as harassment or as trolling. It should be applauded and furthered. This is how the world is made better. |
| 17:47 |
muurkha |
No, harassment was what Festus did |
| 17:47 |
muurkha |
filling up the dude's server with fake core devs |
| 17:49 |
ShadMOrdre |
muurkha, frame it this way. Treat others as you wish to be treated. If you treat someone respectfully, you are telling them that you want to be treated respectfully. So what happens when someone treats you disrespectfully? Do you think they want you to treat them with respect? This is the common assumption. But do you think they |
| 17:49 |
ShadMOrdre |
care how they treat you? Do you allow yourself to be disrespected by those who are initially disrepectful? |
| 17:51 |
ShadMOrdre |
I wouldn't call Festus' actions harassment. Not OK. And maybe should have been more severely handled, but not my call. Sometimes, you have to out shout the troll to shut them up. That is the path Festus chose, for the safety and well being of Festus and Festus' community. Kinda like some perv comes onto the street in front of your house, |
| 17:51 |
ShadMOrdre |
how do you handle it when the police don't show, or there are no police to call? |
| 17:52 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> It was harassment, and unprovoked at that |
| 17:54 |
ShadMOrdre |
OK, I'll concede that might have been.... but kimapr logged into said server and shut it down, and not a single reprimand to my knowledge, just an acknowledgement from kimapr that they did it. |
| 17:54 |
rubenwardy |
Festus absolutely was in the wrong for his actions |
| 17:55 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> What kimapr allegedly did would also be harassment. Just less vocal and thus a bit more under the radar |
| 17:56 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kimapr at least didn't involve the names of people who had absolutely nothing to do with it |
| 17:56 |
ShadMOrdre |
Yes, falsely representing the core team in that way IS wrong. But it did get the attention that the subject needed, because in the past, this discussion about adult nature material has either been shut down, swept under the rug, or just otherwise ignored. MT has grown in the last few years. These are merely growing pains. MT is far more |
| 17:56 |
ShadMOrdre |
popular now than in the past, especially with the newest version |
| 17:57 |
ShadMOrdre |
And this and other discussions need to take place |
| 17:58 |
ShadMOrdre |
I've seen far more offensive behavior from MCL in the last week than I could even accuse Pete of. |
| 18:01 |
ShadMOrdre |
And for those who were paying attention earlier, I continuously encouraged Pete to stick around, just play by the rules, as spelled out in many areas of this project. The No NSFW policy of CDB has been in place for far longer than this discussion. That Pete didn't think that that might also be a safe assumption to make about the server list |
| 18:01 |
ShadMOrdre |
just shows lack of effort, or total disregard. Accusing the core devs of not have written rules and policies is yet another outright falsehood. |
| 18:12 |
ShadMOrdre |
IIRC, when the 18+ server first came to my attention, via a thread in the forum, it was a day or two before Festus took action. Festus took action because, due to the heated nature of the forum topic, the thread was sanitized, and then deleted. So the perception is that the discussion about concern over an 18+ server was that it was swept under |
| 18:12 |
ShadMOrdre |
the rug. Festus took action after the thread was deleted, and so the voices of those concerned community members, self included, were silenced. |
| 18:13 |
Kimapr |
i thought the reason cdb doesn't allow NSFW was because it was not allowed by the hosting provider. The serverlist isn't responsible for anything that happens on the servers, so there's not as much reason to disallow NSFW |
| 18:14 |
ShadMOrdre |
Correct, server list does not live by same rules. |
| 18:14 |
ShadMOrdre |
Up til now, I guess most folks just kinda went with it, were discreet, or just otherwise weren't so bold |
| 18:15 |
Kimapr |
only somewhat substantial reason i can come up with is google play policy |
| 18:15 |
ShadMOrdre |
Either way, a simple purview of the website, CDB, the forums, wiki, and even a simple question here in IRC could have helped Pete. Pete didn't do any of that, or ignored what they read. |
| 18:16 |
ShadMOrdre |
Rating system discussion from a couple of years back |
| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> NSFW not being allowed AT ALL on CDB is true at least in part because of the hosting provider, but there's no guarantee that it would be allowed otherwise, as that sort of thing can add a lot of complication around hosting an already attention-demanding service. Also, even if they were allowed, they would have to be filtered out aggressively by default, especially on mobile to avoid running into MORE problems with Google Play. |
| 18:17 |
Kimapr |
i didn't ask anyone before publishing my first servers to the list either |
| 18:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The distributed nature of our project/community does not make it easy to find out what the standards actually are here. That much it obvious already from the fact that even on the forums there is apparently little consensus about what those standards should be... |
| 18:18 |
ShadMOrdre |
And the suggestion still stands, that there is a way for "adult" content or a more adult friendly version of MT can exist for those that want it. |
| 18:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, tbh, asking for permission is wack. I don't know whether I hate asking for permission more, or being asked for permission more. If I wanted to be asked if it was okay to do something, I wouldn't have put permission in the license 😆 |
| 18:18 |
ShadMOrdre |
I say a good start for MT standards are to follow industry norms and standards. |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> A good start for following industry norms and standards would be to figure out which "industry" applies, and whether we can even agree to be part of an "industry" or not. |
| 18:20 |
ShadMOrdre |
These types of issues are as prevalent in most FOSS projects, because only the nerd kids are interested in helping to further vim development..... |
| 18:20 |
ShadMOrdre |
are not as prevalent |
| 18:20 |
ShadMOrdre |
MT is part of the new paradigm in communications. Real time visualization and actualization of ones behavior. |
| 18:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, I love the fact that MT makes modding so accessible and low-barrier, but you have to wonder sometimes how much influence that has on our culture and making everything so bikesheddy... |
| 18:21 |
ShadMOrdre |
game industry for starters, since MT continues to label itself as a game/ game engine |
| 18:22 |
ShadMOrdre |
Tech industry in general, since many of these issues were hashed out back in the wild west 90s |
| 18:24 |
ShadMOrdre |
And considering current world events, FOSS developers need to seriously rethink their approach to "It must be free, hackable, and shared". Do you want that code you wrote to more easily do that calculation to end up in a missile, tank, or robotic AI body where the calc is used to kill people? |
| 18:25 |
ShadMOrdre |
You remember the project, one of those college things you did one night while you were drinking with your buddies while reinventing someone elses work in a different langauage and calling it clean room implementation of The Harvard Connection....Facebooked ya, did ya see it? |
| 18:28 |
ShadMOrdre |
Second Life, a virt world from15 years ago is also a good place to at least look, since these issues were there also, and it was a problem there as well. A bit of guidance on what might work, versus what absolutely will fail can be very informative |
| 18:30 |
ShadMOrdre |
Opensim helps also, in that it was a clean room rewrite of the server protocol that enable folks to host their own virtual worlds. IBM was involved with Opensim, so had traction. The client was limited by license of Second Life client, so project kinda withered away. |
| 18:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If you have to worry about some small thing you worked on for a hobby becoming part of some great evil, then you wouldn't be able to do anything or even function. We also can only mitigate those risk so far before we end up doing some other evil ourselves in the pursuit of preventing it. |
| 18:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also, if somebody tries to use code I've written in a missile guidance system, they will probably get what they deserve anyway. |
| 18:31 |
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| 18:31 |
ShadMOrdre |
Yes. The small example. Now to the bigger ones. Over the years I've worked towards AI in virt worlds. Dabbled with AI in robotic bodies. Now I'm concerned that some of that effort will not end well. |
| 18:32 |
ShadMOrdre |
LOL, nice self deprecating plug for the quality of your software. :) |
| 18:33 |
ShadMOrdre |
I can't say the same for some of my efforts. Others, like early mod attempts by me, maybe so. |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha, well, there are different kinds of quality, and you don't necessarily want the same kind everywhere, but I tend to stick to the kind of projects that allow me to lean toward a higher fault-tolerance-over-fault-avoidance ratio. Not the kind of thing you need in a missile guidance system. |
| 18:34 |
ShadMOrdre |
Ever search google to see if an idea you had was done, only to find google tells you yes, or someone does it soon there after? |
| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If you asked me to objectively rate the quality of my code, it's better than it was 2 weeks ago, but I can only HOPE it's complete trash compared to what I'll write 2 weeks from now. |
| 18:36 |
ShadMOrdre |
Couldn't agree more. my mapgen efforts only get better the more i examine and tinker with the code. |
| 18:36 |
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| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's not that surprising to have an idea at about the same time as another person, or even a lot of other people. Ideas are built upon ideas of the past, and it's not hard for 2 people at the same time to have access to a similar set of foundations to build upon. |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Often way more people have the same idea, you just only see the few that actually move forward with it 😄 |
| 18:38 |
ShadMOrdre |
It's not the idea, its the subject matter you search that would lead to someone else also "discovering" you method. And it's not the Edison vs Tesla debate, its the David vs Goliath, where the idea is brought to fruition not by some other individual, but by a corporate entity. That corporate entity can just as easily be a shell company, created |
| 18:38 |
ShadMOrdre |
by the corp in question. |
| 18:39 |
ShadMOrdre |
Ever watch Silicon Valley on HBO? |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> No |
| 18:41 |
ShadMOrdre |
It is far too easy to accomplish the above scenario, was easy to do long before computers. Wall Street, the movie, alludes to this, as does the Wolf of Wall Street. There are dozens of others as well. Weird how some Hollywood bigwigs help bring to light subjects otherwise "hidden", but creating fiction works to describe said scenario. The |
| 18:41 |
ShadMOrdre |
Laundromat, on Netflix. All based in part on true events. |
| 18:41 |
muurkha |
ShadMOrdre: if the shadow of war has switched you from liberalism to authoritarianism, well, that's not that unusual, but don't expect everyone else to react the same way |
| 18:42 |
muurkha |
liberalism wasn't born because people didn't know about warfare, but as an alternative to it |
| 18:42 |
ShadMOrdre |
not authoritarian, not liberal. more of a "Hey, cant we all work together for something better for all of us?" kinda person |
| 18:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Wait, hold up, is this a conspiracy theory about Google somehow poaching your ideas because they see what you're searching for to do the background research? |
| 18:43 |
muurkha |
it's understandable that authoritarians will insist that everyone else should also abandon the ideals of freedom, hackability, and sharing, deprecating them as "wild west" ideals |
| 18:44 |
muurkha |
but those who don't abandon them will continue being able to work together productively; we're pretty robust to authoritarian interference at this point |
| 18:44 |
ShadMOrdre |
I stated before, there is no left and right anymore in politics. Both extremes preach the same disaster. I'm a rule of law person, because that is the only way we will move forward. You cannot depend on everyone just being civil, so laws have to be enacted to tell people not to do stoopid. |
| 18:44 |
muurkha |
although in a lot of cases we'll have to do it pseudonymously in order to avoid punishment |
| 18:45 |
muurkha |
you can build systems that are resilient to uncivil people |
| 18:45 |
muurkha |
and we have; free software licenses are an important part of that |
| 18:46 |
muurkha |
so you can continue to insist that what is needed is more laws, more standards, more ratings, more rules, and less freedom, hackability, and sharing, but it isn't going to change our mind |
| 18:46 |
ShadMOrdre |
Warr1024, I don't do conspiracy theories. I proactively learn. Sometimes I learn crap I don't want to know. The best way to detract from an idea is to call it crazy, label it negatively. Conspiracy theories are for nutjobs. I am so glad Gallileo was a freakin nutjob! |
| 18:47 |
muurkha |
we can't prevent uncivil people from doing damage, but we can prevent the damage they cause from crashing the whole system |
| 18:48 |
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| 18:49 |
ShadMOrdre |
If I could guarantee that ChatGPTs ability to write code doesn't draw on FOSS licensed material without providing attribution, I would have a leg to stand on. ChatGPT and others are built on the Web2.0 data we've been providing for years. ChatGPT is not going to attribute you or me or any other FOSS dev, and all that code you gave away will |
| 18:49 |
ShadMOrdre |
be buried under the copyright that ChatGPT holds over its creation. Your license is irrelevant when it is simply ignored, and you can't prove otherwise or pay to have someone else prove it. |
| 18:52 |
ShadMOrdre |
No, we can't prevent anything, because no one can foretell the future. We can mitigate the effects, and deal with the consequences, but never "prevent". This is a fallacy, kinda like the fallacy that your antivirus is actually stopping viruses......that weren't created for the purpose of driving you to pay for antivirus software.......by the |
| 18:52 |
ShadMOrdre |
naive contractor who just wanted a paycheck....... |
| 18:54 |
ShadMOrdre |
Yes, this all sounds crazy, but I've been around the block so many times by now, I'm a circuit racer. |
| 18:55 |
ShadMOrdre |
And it is just too easy to get away with stuff when no one knows anything, much less that they should be looking. |
| 18:56 |
ShadMOrdre |
The trend is to not educate the general public. Stoopid people don't know they're being abused. So if the general pop is stoopid, then it becomes easier to manipulate them. |
| 18:57 |
ShadMOrdre |
Haven't we all commented on the general nature of sheep, err, humanity these days..... |
| 18:58 |
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| 19:01 |
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| 19:02 |
definitelya |
ShadMOrdre: I've been taking to calling our current age the "disinformation age" for a reason... |
| 19:02 |
ShadMOrdre |
Just taking stock of the morality of people in general forces me to question the legitimacy of ones ethics. We should question the ethics of those who have questionable morals. |
| 19:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Your last sentence sounds pretty tautological to me... |
| 19:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Either way, the observation that open source is readily exploited by companies is not new; what's perhaps partially new is that these companies may now be exploiting our work in license-violating ways |
| 19:05 |
ShadMOrdre |
Disinformation, the lack of truth, the ability to accept simple facts without letting our egos decide our course of action. We are only victims of our own willingness to allow these things |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (but I'd bet that they were already violating licenses galore through their workforces doing the grunt work of taking code without respecting the license before these new AI advancements) |
| 19:06 |
ShadMOrdre |
I would say the license violating ways are also just as old as the industry itself. Who made a windowed environment first? Apple wrote, MS "stole" it, and Xerox who???? |
| 19:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> that said, I find it hard to prove that ChatGPT is violating licenses, simply because I couldn't yet get it to regurgitate code I or others have written |
| 19:07 |
ShadMOrdre |
Or even merely doing what your boss tells you so you don't get fired. What do you know? You're a coder, not an attorney, ceo, manager.... |
| 19:08 |
ShadMOrdre |
ChatGPT isn't the only code writing AI |
| 19:09 |
ShadMOrdre |
And getting to a very petty part of that, who gets credit for writing, "SELECT * FROM tbl_customers"? |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I, too, am a code-writing AI. |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I used to think that you're a natural intelligence but thanks for letting me know. Explains why you wrote skynet at least. |
| 19:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ShadMOrdre: Such very basic statements that end up "reinvented" are not license issues. |
| 19:10 |
ShadMOrdre |
GreenXenith, +1 |
| 19:10 |
ShadMOrdre |
LOL |
| 19:13 |
ShadMOrdre |
luatic, I know, petty, but where is the line drawn between basic statements, and the organization of statements into a more coherent logic. Just look at the debate around book writing, the monkey picture where the monkey gets copyright, and the direction of the music industry since the 80s. It's not hard to code a musical note generator to |
| 19:13 |
ShadMOrdre |
"write" every possible combination of music notes, and then to copyright said combinations. How do you think rap has been so successful? Musicians, those that actually play instruments have been replaced time and again by synths, samplers, autotune, and drum machines. |
| 19:15 |
muurkha |
ShadMOrdre: the first computing environment with windows was Augment/NLS from SRI, demoed in 01968 |
| 19:16 |
muurkha |
well, unless you count SKETCHPAD in 01963 |
| 19:17 |
muurkha |
the GENESYS animation program also pretty clearly had windows in 01969, and arguably so did GRAIL in I think 01969 |
| 19:18 |
muurkha |
overlapping movable windows was probably Smalltalk-76 in 01976 (at Xerox, as you said) |
| 19:19 |
muurkha |
as far as I can tell Smalltalk-72 didn't have overlapping windows |
| 19:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> smalltalk is cool, but have you seen forth |
| 19:19 |
ShadMOrdre |
And if any of those were part of the *nix family, they were included in Xerox, thus apple and M$. Dos is minix, and apple is some other *nix derivative. |
| 19:20 |
ShadMOrdre |
I didn't think the force was something one could see young padawan.... |
| 19:20 |
muurkha |
heh |
| 19:20 |
muurkha |
I haven't seen anyone write a graphical windowing system in Forth, interestingly enough |
| 19:20 |
ShadMOrdre |
Or formspec......... |
| 19:21 |
muurkha |
formspec yes ;) |
| 19:21 |
muurkha |
but that's sort of cheating, because formspec already is a graphical windowing system |
| 19:21 |
ShadMOrdre |
See, still on topic, if a little skewed. |
| 19:21 |
muurkha |
I haven't seen anyone do movable overlapping windows in it tho |
| 19:22 |
ShadMOrdre |
Ok, except for jp and i3, I use sfinv with some additions. But....... |
| 19:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> i should write a windowing system in forth tbf |
| 19:22 |
muurkha |
yes |
| 19:22 |
ShadMOrdre |
Formspec is more like terminal windowing, in the very beginning, before overlapping interfaces became known as windows. |
| 19:23 |
ShadMOrdre |
Flamore, yeth, you should write a windowing system in forth. :) |
| 19:23 |
muurkha |
by "terminal" do you mean "character-cell terminal", like a VT100? |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> though I don't currently have time for it, in the bucket list it goes |
| 19:24 |
muurkha |
I don't think I've seen a terminal windowing interface that predates 01976 |
| 19:24 |
muurkha |
in that sense of "terminal" |
| 19:24 |
ShadMOrdre |
Yes. I started on TRS-DOS, and then MS-DOS and then Win3.0. So my terminology is terminally terminated with Windows terminal. |
| 19:24 |
muurkha |
TRS-DOS postdates Smalltalk-76 by about three years |
| 19:25 |
ShadMOrdre |
Old, but not that old. |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> TRS? isn't that Tandy? |
| 19:25 |
ShadMOrdre |
Flamore, my bad, you should write a sythtem in forth. |
| 19:25 |
muurkha |
hmm, maybe only one year |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> is that a lisp i see |
| 19:26 |
ShadMOrdre |
Radio shack baby. I do miss that store. |
| 19:26 |
muurkha |
the TRS-80 didn't usually use a terminal |
| 19:26 |
ShadMOrdre |
Why yeth, it ith a lithp. Ith that OK? :) |
| 19:27 |
muurkha |
although it did have a serial port, so in theory you could have hooked one up |
| 19:27 |
ShadMOrdre |
Correct, TRS/MS dos are the terminal. |
| 19:27 |
muurkha |
(as an extra-cost option) |
| 19:27 |
muurkha |
no, TRS-DOS did not use a terminal |
| 19:27 |
muurkha |
normally, anyway |
| 19:27 |
ShadMOrdre |
I had one plugged into a 286, and teletyped across the serial port. |
| 19:28 |
muurkha |
yes, using a TRS-80 as a terminal is a much more sensible thing to do |
| 19:28 |
ShadMOrdre |
I had access to Trash80 3 and 4P, so built in disk, monitor, and keyboard |
| 19:28 |
muurkha |
Flamore: it's probably easier than you think |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> using a terminal? i'm pretty used to it at this point |
| 19:29 |
ShadMOrdre |
Flamore, now that I think about it, why not use lithp to write a lithp windowing sythtem that has a lithp.... ;) |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> lisp isn't my cup of tea |
| 19:30 |
muurkha |
Flamore: in https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/yeso the basic sources for Yeso are yeso.h yeso-xlib.c yeso-pic.c, which add up to 512 lines of code |
| 19:30 |
ShadMOrdre |
Is it your cup of Java? |
| 19:30 |
muurkha |
in C |
| 19:30 |
muurkha |
Forth is about the same level of abstraction as C in my experience |
| 19:31 |
muurkha |
those almost add up to a windowing system |
| 19:32 |
muurkha |
I mean, yp_sub https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/-/blob/master/yeso/yeso-pic.c#L8 creates a window of a larger surface that you can draw into |
| 19:33 |
muurkha |
with clipping and stuff |
| 19:33 |
ShadMOrdre |
so in the days of dos, could you even use the term terminal outside of the context of remote terminal to a server? Dos was command line only, and it wasn't until the windowed environs of Apple and MS that terminal because a euphamism for command line access on the desktop. |
| 19:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> now all I need is a good forth that won't cost me hundreds of dollars |
| 19:33 |
ShadMOrdre |
Wait, there isn't an OS version of Forth? |
| 19:33 |
ShadMOrdre |
This is just criminal |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> there is Dusk OS |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> and Collapse OS |
| 19:34 |
muurkha |
wercamini.c and yeso-wercam.c are another 650 lines of code and provide a protocol for sending graphics over a local machine socket |
| 19:34 |
muurkha |
Flamore: what don't you like about Gforth? |
| 19:34 |
ShadMOrdre |
Didn't debian or ubuntu have a forth compiler in the repo? I'd swear I saw one in both distros |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> they don't have a straightforward way to make standalone executables for a noob like me |
| 19:34 |
muurkha |
Bigforth is a Forth compiler that used to be in Debian, but I think it's been abandoned |
| 19:35 |
muurkha |
Flamore: yeah, that's not really what Forth is for |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> bigforth got replaced by gforth |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> yeah it's not for noobs |
| 19:35 |
muurkha |
Gforth existed concurrently with Bigforth |
| 19:35 |
muurkha |
no, it's totally for noobs |
| 19:35 |
ShadMOrdre |
If you're a noob, is that noob to coding, or noob to forth. If noob to coding, pick a more current langauge :) |
| 19:35 |
muurkha |
but it's not for making standalone executables |
| 19:35 |
muurkha |
C is better for making standalone executables |
| 19:36 |
muurkha |
from the standpoint of making standalone executables, Forth is just like a crappier C |
| 19:36 |
muurkha |
where Forth shines is in interactive experimentation |
| 19:36 |
muurkha |
C environments generally require you to restart your entire program every time you make a change to it |
| 19:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> a crappier C that's easier to port onto other platforms |
| 19:37 |
muurkha |
in Forth, like in BASIC, you can interrupt in the middle, make a change, test some things, and then continue |
| 19:37 |
ShadMOrdre |
So, is forth interpreted, not compiled. |
| 19:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> it's both |
| 19:38 |
muurkha |
it's true that Forth is easier to port onto new platforms, but C isn't that hard either, and vendors of new platforms generally provide C compilers |
| 19:38 |
muurkha |
ShadMOrdre: the conventional implementation interprets threaded code, which facilitates things like SEE |
| 19:38 |
ShadMOrdre |
Yes, without a builtin compiler, things get next to impossible. |
| 19:38 |
muurkha |
it also conventionally has a built-in assembler |
| 19:40 |
ShadMOrdre |
I can see where there are advantages to a language like that. But comes across as too niche, since not many consumer projects get coded in that language. |
| 19:40 |
ShadMOrdre |
And not many vendors seem to support much else besides C or it's derivatives. |
| 19:41 |
muurkha |
Yeah, Forth was always kind of niche, and its niche sort of disappeared in the 90s |
| 19:43 |
muurkha |
the great benefit of Forth is that you get an IDE with multithreading, virtual memory, inline assembly, and metaprogramming in 8K or 16K of RAM, without requiring a larger computer to develop on |
| 19:43 |
muurkha |
and it's a live environment: you can interrupt the program, inspect the values of its variables, rewrite some of its code, and continue on |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> perfect language for a graphing calculator imo |
| 19:45 |
muurkha |
maybe, although graphing calculators now commonly have 128KiB or more of RAM |
| 19:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> megabytes of ram, and they're also costly |
| 19:46 |
muurkha |
and generally everyone who owns them also own computers with gigabytes of RAM, megapixels of screen, and gigaflops of processing |
| 19:46 |
ShadMOrdre |
if good for graph calc, sounds logical that it'd be good for a voxel space, since graph paper and voxels share 2 of the three diminesions. |
| 19:46 |
muurkha |
so things like KnightOS are cross-compiled from a larger computer |
| 19:47 |
muurkha |
it's no longer crucial for the development environment to fit into the target platform |
| 19:47 |
ShadMOrdre |
it would be interesting to allow MT to have run time code editing |
| 19:48 |
muurkha |
and it's also pretty difficult on platforms where you have tens of kilobytes of Flash, or even ROM, but only a few K of RAM |
| 19:48 |
ShadMOrdre |
just think, on_gen call on demand, with new code for new block. |
| 19:49 |
muurkha |
Chuck Moore's last product was the GA144, which is a 12×12 grid of Forth processors, each with 64 18-bit words of RAM and 64 18-bit words of ROM, each running at about a thousand MIPS |
| 19:50 |
ShadMOrdre |
All that power just to compile? What was Chuck up too, I wonder? |
| 19:50 |
muurkha |
not to compile, no |
| 19:50 |
muurkha |
it was an experiment to see what people would do with unlimited amounts of computation |
| 19:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> spoiler alert: nobody did anything cool with it |
| 19:50 |
muurkha |
the answer was almost nothing because it was too hard to program |
| 19:50 |
muurkha |
well, there were some demos of voice recognition and stuff |
| 19:51 |
muurkha |
Forth is the simplest thing you can add to a conventional assembly language that will give it nested expressions, function calls with arguments, and metaprogramming |
| 19:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> oh so was it like the Atari Jaguar? where you had to program for like 3 CPUs |
| 19:51 |
muurkha |
yeah, except each CPU only had space for up to 256 instructions |
| 19:52 |
muurkha |
so you had to floorplan your program |
| 19:52 |
ShadMOrdre |
nvrmnd, chip design |
| 19:53 |
muurkha |
also you generally had to dedicate some of the CPUs to shuffling data around between the other CPUs because all the communication was nearest-neighbor |
| 19:53 |
muurkha |
including, in particular, to boot your program in the first place |
| 19:53 |
ShadMOrdre |
He could bought a Dell dude. Probably would saved time...... :) |
| 19:54 |
ShadMOrdre |
A Dell with a Bulldozer. It was his design, why not? |
| 19:54 |
ShadMOrdre |
Without all the shuffling of 256 bits |
| 19:55 |
ShadMOrdre |
Well, we now know what some will do with unlimited computing power. The host the web, scour the data, build AIs, and charge us for the convenience. |
| 19:55 |
muurkha |
the other problem with the GA144, aside from being hard to program |
| 19:56 |
muurkha |
is that he didn't include multipliers |
| 19:56 |
muurkha |
I mean, there's a multiply-step instruction |
| 19:56 |
ShadMOrdre |
adders didn't add up? :) |
| 19:57 |
muurkha |
but it takes like 24 cycles to use it to do an 18×18 multiplication |
| 19:57 |
muurkha |
and, as it turns out, the places where people do have an unlimited appetite for computrons, such as 3-D rendering of voxel spaces or building AIs, use a shitload of multiplications |
| 19:58 |
ShadMOrdre |
If forth, why not code a multiplier, sounds like chip was linear programmed, not threaded well. |
| 19:58 |
muurkha |
there's a multiply routine in the ROM IIRC |
| 19:58 |
muurkha |
but FPGAs generally do include multipliers which run a lot faster than the cycle-by-cycle multipliers in the F18A cores in the GA144 |
| 19:59 |
ShadMOrdre |
I'm guessing performance suffered using ROM routine? |
| 19:59 |
muurkha |
no, but it suffers from needing to run like 24 instructions |
| 20:02 |
ShadMOrdre |
Well, good thing MT runs on this PC. And well. If Forth is good a handling this kind of data, it'd be a good candidate for scripting api, over choices like rust, python, and the like suggested by others. Especially if it is as lightweight as suggested. |
| 20:02 |
muurkha |
it's very lightweight, but I think Lua is a much better scriptingAPI |
| 20:02 |
muurkha |
*scripting API |
| 20:02 |
muurkha |
Python might be too |
| 20:03 |
ShadMOrdre |
But language is really irrelevant unless the compiled code is more / less performant. |
| 20:03 |
muurkha |
language is programmer UI |
| 20:03 |
ShadMOrdre |
I do like Lua. It's been easy to learn, and has some power. |
| 20:05 |
muurkha |
I don't mean to imply that Lua couldn't be improved, but it has a simple mental model, and when your Lua programs fail, their failures are explicable in terms of that mental model, which is pretty close to the kind of imperative scripting interface you probably want for a game |
| 20:05 |
muurkha |
and the error messages are relatively comprehensible |
| 20:05 |
muurkha |
(partly as a result of that) |
| 20:06 |
muurkha |
and it doesn't have drawbacks like long compile times, large executables, or being in Python-like rapid flux |
| 20:08 |
ShadMOrdre |
Large executables. Have you seen the size of some of my mods. :):) |
| 20:09 |
muurkha |
that sounds nsfw |
| 20:09 |
muurkha |
;) |
| 20:10 |
ShadMOrdre |
Totally not safe for wimps! |
| 20:10 |
muurkha |
Python used to be a lot simpler, and I'm pretty sure it's more readable |
| 20:10 |
muurkha |
it used to be almost as simple as Lua |
| 20:10 |
ShadMOrdre |
or more appropriately, ShadMOrdre mods are Not Safe For Wimpy PCs. |
| 20:11 |
muurkha |
though it did always have ints, longs, and lists |
| 20:11 |
muurkha |
and tuples |
| 20:11 |
muurkha |
all of which are extra complexity that isn't there in Lua |
| 20:13 |
muurkha |
but now it has metaclasses, inheritance hierarchy linearization, list comprehensions (which I love), dict comprehensions, generators, async/await, descriptors, decorators, context managers, the __new__/__init__ split, the bytes/unicode split, and so on |
| 20:13 |
muurkha |
so it's moved pretty firmly away from Computer Programming For Everyone and toward people who program for a living |
| 20:15 |
muurkha |
JS is another language that a lot of people use casually and which I think can be pretty readable, though less so than Python. but it too has grown a lot of extra complexity in recent years |
| 20:15 |
ShadMOrdre |
I began in database coding. strings, ints, floats, arrays. It's all data at the end of the day.. |
| 20:16 |
ShadMOrdre |
Not to mention the beast of an install required just to run Java coded apps. |
| 20:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The irony of more modern JS is that a lot of their "adding complexity" is about trying to inject sanity into the language and you're supposed to try to reduce how much of the old stuff you use 😄 |
| 20:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> After all, it's pretty hard to "add simplicity" to anything, especially when you've got tough backwards compat goals to meet. |
| 20:22 |
ShadMOrdre |
Would the more appropriate model be, fix the broken stuff, update and cleanse the obsolete? |
| 20:22 |
muurkha |
ShadMOrdre: no, breaking compatibility with old web pages is not a valid option |
| 20:22 |
muurkha |
you don't "cleanse" a library by throwing out the old books |
| 20:23 |
muurkha |
Warr1024: some of it is, but things like destructuring assignment don't fit into the "injecting sanity" category |
| 20:25 |
muurkha |
and even in the cases where it's arguably saner, like having nested scopes within a function with let, or different kinds of functions for methods and for callbacks (with =>), it still involves more complexity than the original language design |
| 20:25 |
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| 20:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Simplicity and sanity are often correlated, but in those few instances where you do need to trade off between them, I'm okay with dealing with SOME complexity. |
| 20:26 |
ShadMOrdre |
but you also don't encourage changing old or bad habits by continuing to support those habits.... but i get it..... got to keep the dead web alive, lest there be dismay that an old unused web page is not updatable. Keeping websites alive shouldnt drive innovation. Sounds like all the fun of PHP, with all the hassle to boot... |
| 20:26 |
muurkha |
ShadMOrdre: fuck off |
| 20:27 |
muurkha |
go burn books somewhere else |
| 20:27 |
muurkha |
Warr1024: sure, and you and I don't have much trouble with even a lot of that complexity. but more things to learn are more barriers to entry for newcomers (as, of course, are insanities) |
| 20:28 |
ShadMOrdre |
Not burning books. just expressing my reasons for not writing Java. MT has forced the same kinda of mentality, where sometimes, you got to get rid of the backward compatibility to move things forward. |
| 20:29 |
muurkha |
sure, MT isn't the repository of the world's knowledge; the WWW is |
| 20:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The need to drive innovation, vs. the need to preserve the past that we're still in the process of learning from, is one of those things that needs balance. |
| 20:30 |
ShadMOrdre |
Encouraging updates to out of date web sites does not equate book burning. Where does that rhetoric even come from? Politicizing someones simple statement??? |
| 20:31 |
muurkha |
we're talking about breaking archived web pages. making them unusable unless their dead authors come back to life and fix them |
| 20:32 |
ShadMOrdre |
Or the host finds someone to update it. There are alts to denying innovation for the sake of some old webpage is all I'm saying. |
| 20:32 |
muurkha |
if a web page is being updated, that means it doesn't say what it used to say |
| 20:32 |
muurkha |
you were the one complaining about 1984-style rewriting of history a few minutes ago |
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| 20:43 |
ShadMOrdre |
Trying to understand book burning reference, (HIGHLY offensive) and updating code. Are we going to say that updating code equates to sanitizing the history of the code? |
| 20:43 |
ShadMOrdre |
Updating the code underlying a website and changing the content of the website or page is not the same thing. don't equate apples and oranges |
| 20:43 |
ShadMOrdre |
and what's with the sudden hostility to me simply encouraging the updating of old tech into new tech |
| 20:43 |
ShadMOrdre |
in this day and age, most web pages can be categorically archived with something as simple .PDF. |
| 20:50 |
muurkha |
if there's someone actively updating a web page in response to political pressures, those pressures will not be limited to their use of JS features |
| 20:51 |
muurkha |
if there isn't (because the page is in the IA, for example, or written to disk) then breaking old JS features will break the page |
| 20:53 |
muurkha |
a PDF is not an adequate archive of an interactive or even reflowable web page, and the PDF spec is potentially vulnerable to the same kind of political memory-holing of old features that you would like to level at JS |
| 20:53 |
muurkha |
although at least PDF/A takes the problem seriously |
| 20:54 |
muurkha |
being able to read/run old documents is the only defense we have against that kind of trickery |
| 20:54 |
muurkha |
if you're offended by people accusing you of attempting to destroy the historical record then you should not do it |
| 20:56 |
muurkha |
of course nothing is wrong with updating of old tech into new tech. what's bad is breaking compatibility with old tech when it's the old tech that provides us access to the intellectual heritage of humanity |
| 20:57 |
muurkha |
so that's what TC39 is weighing in the balance when they consider breaking compatibility with old JS |
| 21:03 |
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| 21:04 |
ShadMOrdre |
I get all that. Don't really care for the attitude in which it was delivered. Or the offensive suggestions about me or my concerns or statements. Just because I advocate moving forward doesn't equate to killing off cultural heritage. You making that wild ass leap befuddles me. You need to take a break, and chill, tbh. Nothing I stated |
| 21:04 |
ShadMOrdre |
was offensive, suggestive of what you've mentioned, or advocating any political position. Updating code is updating code. All the rest is your own fucking paranoia. Get a goddamned grip! |
| 21:05 |
ShadMOrdre |
It |
| 21:07 |
ShadMOrdre |
It's really nice to see just how fucked up humanity has allowed the pandemic to screw what most folks took as simple conversation into now being labeled as the complete opposite political extreme, just because of a simple misunderstanding, on the accusers part. |
| 21:07 |
ShadMOrdre |
IRC is just as fucked up toxic as the forums? |
| 21:08 |
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| 21:08 |
ShadMOrdre |
Instead of condemning someone, how about realizing that there is an opportunity for someone to help move things forward. |
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| 21:46 |
muurkha |
IRC has always been more toxic; it incents rapid reactions |
| 21:47 |
muurkha |
I don't think this was a simple misunderstanding, though; I think it reflects fundamentally incompatible value systems |
| 21:53 |
muurkha |
Updating code can serve any political purpose whatsoever. Adding new features to JS serves the purpose of making programming easier; removing old ones would serve the purpose of "cleansing" the web of "out of date" intersctive pages, even those saved in the powered-off disk arrays in Alexandria. |
| 21:53 |
muurkha |
*interactive |
| 21:54 |
muurkha |
For the record, my concern for archival and opposition to authoritarian "cleansing" of history goes back a lot further than the pandemic. |
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| 21:58 |
ShadMOrdre |
So what makes you declare me to be the complete opposite? Nothing I stated advocated cleansing anything. And sometimes, code updates are just that, code updates. The Linux kernal is constantly updated, does that mean there is political motivation? No. And when necessary, even Linus has broken "backward compatibility". |
| 21:59 |
muurkha |
Preserving older works, including retaining their intelligibility, is essential to intellectual progress |
| 21:59 |
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| 21:59 |
ShadMOrdre |
You made very wild leap from talking about code, the state of java, and its shortcomings, to misinterpreting my single comment to book burning. WTF? |
| 21:59 |
muurkha |
Everything people do is politically motivated. |
| 22:00 |
muurkha |
I don't know why you're bringing up Java; I haven't mentioned it |
| 22:00 |
ShadMOrdre |
I can tell by your original handle that you might be very politically motivated. Bushism much? |
| 22:00 |
ShadMOrdre |
*unoriginal |
| 22:01 |
muurkha |
Bush is an authoritarian, like you. I am not aligned with you. |
| 22:01 |
ShadMOrdre |
Then muurkha, you interjected condemnation on someone whose comment you didn't even put into proper context. Warr1024 and I WERE talking about Java and JScript |
| 22:03 |
muurkha |
I don't recall seeing anyone talk about Java except that you've mentioned it three times. |
| 22:03 |
ShadMOrdre |
Again, FUCK YOU, you judgemental fucking idiot prick. Shove you and your opinion up your ass!!!. Advocating for civility and rules keeps your meat free of disease, your car being safe, and the idiot with a gun from shooting your dumb ass!!! |
| 22:03 |
muurkha |
You aren't doing a very good job of being civil or respectful. |
| 22:03 |
muurkha |
It's not a wild leap at all. To understand works of code, you have to be able to run them. This requires an execution environment that's compatible with the one it was originally tested in. |
| 22:04 |
ShadMOrdre |
Read the log from Minetest web site, not discord or matrix or whatever bridge is hiding shit from you. |
| 22:05 |
ShadMOrdre |
You said fuck you first. So fuck you back. Civil? Show some. Respect went out the window with you and your wild leap. You really need to learn more about the world outside |
| 22:05 |
muurkha |
The "cleansing" comment you are denying having made is 20:22 < ShadMOrdre> Would the more appropriate model be, fix the broken stuff, update and cleanse the obsolete? |
| 22:06 |
rubenwardy |
haven't cared to follow the conversation but you could definitely use some cooling off |
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| 22:49 |
SwAgGeR_6_9 |
is there a way that i can make sure my mod's registered globalstep function runs first before any other mod's globalstep functions? |
| 22:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you can stick it in the front, but if another mod does it after yours, they will be first |
| 22:51 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Though you can do a lot of things to prevent it (like hijacking the table with a metatable) |
| 22:51 |
rubenwardy |
table.insert(minetest.registered_on_globalsteps, 1, your_function) |
| 22:51 |
rubenwardy |
is how to stick it in the front |
| 22:52 |
SwAgGeR_6_9 |
rubenwardy: oh thx. i was about to ask what that meant. |
| 22:53 |
rubenwardy |
(that may not be the correct table) |
| 22:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/180ec92ef982d9fb5c6bdc789f381335f77823c1/builtin/client/register.lua#L67 you want minetest.registered_globalsteps |
| 22:56 |
SwAgGeR_6_9 |
thx. i was about to go digging myself to check. |
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