| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:05 |
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| 00:57 |
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| 00:58 |
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| 01:05 |
FavoritoHJS |
Anyone know of a good license for both code and assets? As I'm afraid the line between both is way blurrier than a separate license for both expects. |
| 01:05 |
FavoritoHJS |
Prefer one that only requires attribution (so no risk of stepping on GPL-esque landmines) and isn't TOO long. |
| 01:16 |
Yad |
Jonathon: Yes I was referring to calling the on_rightclick function without a physical click. |
| 01:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you can get_node, then the def, then the rightclick function if present and pass it the required params |
| 01:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> favoritoHJS: MIT and BSD are fairly short, readable, and to the point |
| 01:18 |
FavoritoHJS |
i'm not sure if they work very well for media, though |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> @Warr1024 can probably explain better, but i dont see a reason why not |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> NAL tho |
| 01:19 |
Yad |
Jonathon: Yes, the rightclick function, what is it's name? |
| 01:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> on_rightclick |
| 01:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> MIT is the best short permissive license. It's actually the single most popular license in the MT ecosystem, so it's got the broadest compatibility |
| 01:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Some projects (like npm or OpenBSD) prefer ISC, and it's a little aesthetically nicer (it's like 1 line shorter or something) but not having to change a license at all between projects is nice, so the dominant MIT one makes a lot of sense. |
| 01:21 |
hedae[m] |
FavoritoHJS: I think MIT could be used if your assets are part of "the software," though you should probably make sure to be explicit about such a relation |
| 01:21 |
Yad |
Jonathon: Can I call it with node:on_rightclick(self, clicker) ? (where node is a noderef or whatever that's called) |
| 01:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> yad: minetest.registered_nodes[minetest.get_node(pos).name].on_rightclick(pos, node, clicker, itemstack, pointed_thing) |
| 01:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The line between code and media only exists for sufficiently simple projects. |
| 01:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> png and ogg are clearly media, lua is clearly (probably) code. Nodebox definitions are a bit iffy. Maps and schematics lean a bit media-ward, but I'm not sure. |
| 01:23 |
Yad |
Jonathon: Thank you! ^^ So there's a `minetest.punch_node(pos)` function simply as a shorthand for `minetest.registered_nodes[minetest.get_node(pos).name].on_punch(self, puncher, time_from_last_punch, tool_capabilities, dir, damage) ? |
| 01:32 |
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| 01:33 |
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| 01:33 |
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| 01:38 |
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| 01:39 |
muurkha |
warr1024: if you can't simulte a Turing machine in it, it's data, not code |
| 01:40 |
muurkha |
of course that is a question of the language, not what is written in it |
| 01:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Got it, so schematics are not code unless they've got a bunch of Mesecons or NC Optics in them or something. |
| 01:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The idea that we would expect licenses to depend on format rather than substance is ... weird. |
| 01:41 |
Yad |
muurkha: hahaha nice |
| 01:49 |
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| 01:50 |
Blockhead256 |
FavoritoHJS: Why not make it explicit what files are under what licences? Even if you still have the problem of the licence seeming innappropriate, you can at least rest assured it's clear to people what licences every file is under. |
| 01:52 |
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| 01:52 |
gry |
can minecraft users connect to a minetest server? how can a minetest server admin configure this? |
| 01:52 |
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| 01:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> no, they cant |
| 01:54 |
gry |
are there some minetest forks that attempted this? |
| 01:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> nothing publicly released |
| 01:59 |
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| 02:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Making it explicit what's licensed in what way would be the ideal way to handle hybrid licensing, rather than relying on assumptions of an audience on how you would have categorized things. But the real ideal is just to have uniform licensing of your project, and distribute it as a single work. |
| 02:09 |
FavoritoHJS |
not that I know of, gry... though I don't see how it would be impossible, if you constrain the minetest side a bit (as in, only air above y:196 or below y:-196 so the world can be mapped into the area of an MC world) |
| 02:10 |
muurkha |
the real ideal is to not have copyright so none of this shit is a threat |
| 02:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> We are a long way from there though. |
| 02:11 |
FavoritoHJS |
here's something that might help with the problem of mapping all the nodes to mc blocks: https://github.com/Patbox/polymer |
| 02:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Though, putting everything under permissive licenses does help out a lot. |
| 02:12 |
muurkha |
yup! |
| 02:15 |
Blockhead256 |
Not supporting copyright is all fine until you find a fork of your mod reuploaded on some website being sold for money while you gave it away for free and solicited donations. Then with no copyright you have no recourse to sue for like a licence violation. |
| 02:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't know if I'd completely eliminate copyright, even if we had a sane transition plan so that nobody who depends on it right now would get totally screwed over, but I might like the idea of reducing it to "attribution right." |
| 02:16 |
Blockhead256 |
If the Minetest project had more power we could probably sue the crappy iOS clients that sell hacks out of existence |
| 02:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> and the microsoft store listing |
| 02:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If I find somebody selling my work, then due to the right to attribution, users should be allowed to know where the original came from. If it was a low-effort clone, then it deserves the public ridicule it would get. If they actually enhanced it in some way, then they earned the right to what the earn from it. |
| 02:17 |
Blockhead256 |
In other words by advocating for no copyright, you're advocating for more capitalism not less, in case what you were hoping for was more socialism, because that's not how that's going to go |
| 02:18 |
diceLibrarian |
<<[11/27/22 17:12:08] <Eze14Mu> Dicelibrarian >> was trying to get unbanned from VE-FreeForAll, not gonna happen |
| 02:19 |
muurkha |
yeah, I'm comfortable advocating for more capitalism |
| 02:19 |
muurkha |
living here in Argentina I pray every day for more capitalism |
| 02:19 |
Blockhead256 |
Warr: Ridicule them all you want, if they made more money than you did than who is really the goose? |
| 02:20 |
muurkha |
I've had enough of socialism, democratic or otherwise |
| 02:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If they did it without giving proper attribution, then I'd just sue them under attribution right. |
| 02:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If they gave proper attribution, and still added enough value to make the money, then good on them, though it has nothing to do with me. |
| 02:21 |
Blockhead256 |
This discussion is getting a bit too spicy. Anyway everyone what's your favourite server :)? |
| 02:21 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> Why are you discussing capitalism in minetest irc? |
| 02:22 |
paradust |
Blockhead256: 127.0.0.1 |
| 02:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> localhost, then ve-traintable probably |
| 02:23 |
muurkha |
the one my girlfriend runs, Blockhead256! |
| 02:23 |
muurkha |
it's just her, me, and her brother generally |
| 02:23 |
paradust |
gry: I'm working on something that might make it possible.... in a few years |
| 02:24 |
paradust |
It would be easy for microsoft to lock-down minecraft clients though, if they so desired |
| 02:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Private friends-and-family servers are great. |
| 02:26 |
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| 02:27 |
FavoritoHJS |
I suspect that cat is long out of the bag, microjang killing non-vanilla servers would likely be suicidal |
| 02:27 |
Blockhead256 |
I do like LinuxForks due to the size and quality of the railway network, public transport and cargo both.. but I have to recognise it's not open to new players most of the time and the mods are getting quite old as the admin has no time for updates. I do like VE-traintable though it's a but messy |
| 02:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> dont see you around there much. curious what you think is messy about it? |
| 02:31 |
Blockhead256 |
Don't get me wrong there are some great builds, and you're right I'm not on much. It's just the usual mess that comes from creative mode servers, where people just start plonking stuff. What is built to a high standard on there is quite enjoyable :) |
| 02:32 |
Blockhead256 |
Advtrains noobs tend to have a hard time with the track system if they haven't learned it and you end up with disconnected tracks on grass and stuff like that. |
| 02:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ah. shame there arent a few other advtrains creative servers. or ones that are notable |
| 02:32 |
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| 02:34 |
Blockhead256 |
I'm sure there's stuff out there that almost nobody knows about, or at least people who mingle in diffeent circles. Private servers and so on. Like I didn't know about Peter nerlich's stuff for a long time because he seems to only be on Twitter and Reddit |
| 02:37 |
Blockhead256 |
Anyway back to licences: Isn't the idea of licensing your mod as a complete work in opposition to the idea of re-using the assets elsewhere, or even importing creative commons assets? It sounds like trying to exert too much control just to satisfy some urge for licence ideals |
| 02:42 |
fluxionary |
the use of code and static media are different, there's reasons why separate licenses exist |
| 02:50 |
fluxionary |
probably most media license can meaningfully be applied to code, if you don't care about its use. in that way they're like the MIT and (common) BSD licenses |
| 03:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I prefer code licenses for media. Definitely over media licenses for code. It also depends on whether you're distributing your media in compiled-only form, or including source. In cases where source exists, I prefer to distribute that as well ... though, I use permissive licenses, so the distinction isn't all that important. |
| 03:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's only the restrictive licenses like the GNU ones that make src/compiled distinctions important. If I MIT license both, then you can keep both, or use either one or the other. |
| 03:04 |
muurkha |
yeah, the GPL is kind of a problem for images pretty often. what is the preferred format for modification? |
| 03:06 |
Blockhead256 |
as someone who likes copyleft, CC BY-SA is the best thing I know of that's comparable but appropriate for media |
| 03:06 |
muurkha |
photoshop isn't "a compiler" and isn't "normally distributed with an operating system" so does that mean that my .psd isn't complete corresponding source for my .png? i'd need to include photoshop itself in source code form? better ot use by-sa |
| 03:06 |
muurkha |
*better to use by-sa |
| 03:07 |
Blockhead256 |
The SA (ShareAlike) is what's important there is it's a form of copyleft, which means people can't attribute me but distribute it to others without preserving their freedoms |
| 03:07 |
muurkha |
agreed that MIT and BSD don't pose any problem |
| 03:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Some images are already in their preferred format for modification. It's somewhat determined by the author. Compiled binary programs CAN be the preferred format, IF the author actually genuinely programs in a hex editor. |
| 03:07 |
muurkha |
Warr1024: true |
| 03:08 |
Blockhead256 |
GIMP can edit PSDs, the "compilation" is more comparable to exporting a PSD, XCF etc into a PNG |
| 03:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also, the "preferred format for editing" is I believe determined at the time the thing is released to the public. If the author decides not to publish actual genuine source, then they're definitely violating the spirit of GPL, but I think it's probably still legal, and it still protects the work from becoming converted to a less preferable editing format. |
| 03:08 |
muurkha |
including the complete corresponding source for the version of the gimp I'm using would still be a problem |
| 03:09 |
muurkha |
of course it's legal for the author to publish the source, yes |
| 03:09 |
muurkha |
I mean, the image |
| 03:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It does make sense to use something like GPL for a mod if e.g. you distribute blend files with it, and want to make sure downstream users aren't stuck with B3D or OBJ only, or if you're making a texturepack in SVG and don't want people to get stuck with fixed-resolution PNG renders only. |
| 03:09 |
muurkha |
but then the GPL fails to grant other people the right to distribute it |
| 03:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Preferred form for editing doesn't require that you publish the preferred form of editor, necessarily, I think. Though, not using an editor that is already published seems like it'd be a weird warping of GPL too. |
| 03:10 |
muurkha |
AFAIK the way "compiler" wil lbe construed for things like blend files is pretty up in the air |
| 03:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't know if "compiler" is relevant, only whether something is "compiled" or not. |
| 03:11 |
muurkha |
well, the issue is that the GPL has a specific exemption for compilers |
| 03:11 |
muurkha |
you don't have to include your compiler as part of your complete corresponding source |
| 03:11 |
muurkha |
or other things that are normally distributed with the OS |
| 03:11 |
muurkha |
such as libc |
| 03:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> To some extent the GPL does seem to assume that the "preferred form for editing" comes with tools that would be available to other people. I suppose if you're not inventing a completely new medium, then the "preferred" thing would also imply a certain amount of convention. |
| 03:12 |
muurkha |
I agree about the problem potential with .b3d and .obj and .png but I think it's probably safer to use by-sa |
| 03:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Interesting, but you could argue that gimp and blender are "part of the OS" because they're commonly in package managers anyway. |
| 03:13 |
muurkha |
because a bigger risk is that after you die your children sell your copyrights to a copyright trolling firm and they go around demanding that people using your artwork defend the position that blender is "part of the OS" in court |
| 03:14 |
muurkha |
or pay up |
| 03:14 |
muurkha |
for stuff that's in the vein of traditional software I think the GPL is fine |
| 03:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> BY-SA vs GPL might be an interesting comparison. BY vs MIT though doesn't seem to be, and I'd probably only use BY on a pure art project, and MIT for code or mixed. Considering I don't really do non-code art, I don't have much use for CC licenses other than CC0. |
| 03:15 |
muurkha |
sounds solid |
| 03:15 |
muurkha |
I think the freedoms for users that the GPL is designed to defend are important |
| 03:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha, in a way, having GPL-licensed stuff pass down to your descendants as part of an estate ... feels weird. I mean, just putting something under a free/open license is almost akin to bequeathing it to the community, so then having somebody else come into ownership of it later sounds strange. |
| 03:16 |
muurkha |
well, only the owner of the copyright can enforce the GPL in court, as far as we know |
| 03:17 |
hedae[m] |
In SFC v. Vizio there was some stuff regarding that, not sure what came of it |
| 03:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Copyright is weird like that. You can transfer ownership to a foundation and let them fight it out for you, but then you could lose control over the work yourself. |
| 03:17 |
muurkha |
Vizio still isn't decided |
| 03:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Oracle v Google still isn't decided, I think, so this all might be moot and we might not be allowed to create code in the first place 😆 |
| 03:18 |
muurkha |
if it is decided against Vizio, it will radically change the landscape |
| 03:18 |
gry |
when will oracle vs google be decided |
| 03:18 |
muurkha |
Oracle v Google did get decided, by the Supremes |
| 03:18 |
muurkha |
it wasn't the worst possible decision but it still sucked pretty bad |
| 03:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Ah, okay, wikipedia says "is a current case" but that's kind of misleading wording |
| 03:19 |
muurkha |
they ruled that the API was copyrightable but that in this particular case the infringement was fair use, among other things because Google wasn't diminishing the market for Java |
| 03:19 |
muurkha |
IIRC |
| 03:21 |
hedae[m] |
Fair use stuff is another big can of worms altogether |
| 03:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Fair use is tricky. Stuff that relies on fair use cannot be published on MT's CDB, for example, because there are still some risks involved. |
| 03:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Since fair use is an affirmative defense, it shifts the burden of proof to the defendant. |
| 03:26 |
Blockhead256 |
I watched a video about people who still play Beta 1.7 Minecraft last night, and I have to agree I think modern Minecraft is too complicated. Is there any MC-like project aimed at an earlier version unlike Mineclone2? |
| 03:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> yeah, roller has a few |
| 03:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> including a server |
| 03:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> see voxelmanip.se:30001 and https://github.com/rollerozxa/minecraftnt-classic |
| 03:30 |
FavoritoHJS |
friendly warning: it's rollerguy, don't trust him |
| 03:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> friendly warning, ignore the above nonsense |
| 03:31 |
Blockhead256 |
no trust needed, it's free software and I never reused passwords across MT servers |
| 03:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> here is the other repo https://github.com/rollerozxa/mineclone-alpha, no server for this one iirc |
| 03:32 |
FavoritoHJS |
how can I not raise an alarm when he got caught up in some pedophilia in another server? |
| 03:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i mean, minetest uses srp, and if you never reset your password, the server doesnt know what it is |
| 03:33 |
muurkha |
you could stop spreading stupid moral panics, FavoritoHJS |
| 03:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> feel free to keep lieing facoritohjs, but no one has to believe you |
| 03:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> *FavoritoHJS |
| 03:34 |
Blockhead256 |
I know MT uses SRP, that doesn't mean a honeypot server couldn't try.. hmm maybe that's cryptographically impossible since it should be sent encrypted in the first place.. but you can't trust there isn't some vulnerability |
| 03:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> fair enough |
| 03:34 |
muurkha |
I didn't realize it used SRP, that's pretty sweet |
| 03:35 |
Blockhead256 |
mmmMmm legally distinct textures |
| 03:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think SRP might still be susceptible to session-level MITM, i.e. if someone reuses a password on your honeypot server, you can use that to gain one-time access to the server it's reused from. There was a discussion, I don't remember the details, or whether there was even a conclusion about whether it's possible. I don't know if that's worth being concerned about specifically, but not reusing passwords is still good practice, even if |
| 03:41 |
MTDiscord |
it's not strictly necessary in some cases. |
| 03:42 |
muurkha |
I thought SRP was designed to resist that attack |
| 03:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I know it prevents recovering passwords from it. That's ... about all I'm certain of, though 😅 |
| 03:44 |
muurkha |
I mean it generates a session key as part of the authentication process that's supposed to not be known to a MITM |
| 03:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also the guarantees offered by secure protocols can be conditional based on other protocols. If someone can physically MITM you, then they don't even need your password, since MT traffic is otherwise unencrypted, so they can basically just firesheep their way into your session. |
| 03:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, see, it would actually work if session keys were a thing in MT |
| 03:44 |
muurkha |
oh, I didn't realize that, shows what I know |
| 03:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If MT had something like, say, DTLS, then SRP would be able to integrate with that and each one would help cover some weakness that the other alone had. |
| 03:46 |
muurkha |
not sure DTLS is SRP-compatible |
| 03:46 |
muurkha |
but I admit I haven't looked |
| 03:47 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> there's no encryption, so if someone does MITM they can just hijack the server link after authentication |
| 03:54 |
diceLibrarian |
TrainTable is a mess, I know. but at least it's not FFA |
| 03:55 |
diceLibrarian |
of the three servers I have ssh access to, TrainTable makes the most sense, Nostalgia is most basic and FFA is held together with Duct Tape, Wishful thinking and Broken Dreams |
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MinetestBot |
[git] TurkeyMcMac -> minetest/minetest: Add `minetest.get_game_info` and allow reading `game.conf` (#12989) d0a118f https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d0a118f5b1a2cada1d46d4acac55a998e268154d (2022-11-28T12:21:43Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] TurkeyMcMac -> minetest/minetest: Wrap debug text on screen (#12978) 38169db https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/38169db765f2553316ae3f1c0f40b0f7e9154b49 (2022-11-28T17:17:36Z) |
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