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Topic for #minetest is now The official Minetest channel | Latest version: 5.6.1 (2022-09-19) | General, player and modding discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: https://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest |
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schwarzwald[m] |
Vim. |
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eahm |
vscodium |
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Pexin |
pluma.. |
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eahm |
sublime is good too come on |
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| 08:33 |
lissobone |
So, I'm currently making a different mod. |
| 08:33 |
lissobone |
It involves creating a 3d model. |
| 08:34 |
lissobone |
I can't figure out how to export to b3d, even after using the GreenXenith's exporter. |
| 08:34 |
lissobone |
The forum discussion frightens me. |
| 08:35 |
lissobone |
Why did minetest adopt b3d? |
| 08:36 |
lissobone |
Is it because of irrlicht? |
| 08:43 |
lissobone |
Where can I contact apercy, by the way? He might provide me with some assistance, because he made rather complex 3d models for his airplanes and a blimp in that very b3d format. |
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| 09:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> fluxionary: I use µ because VSC got too sluggish at some point |
| 09:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> lissobone: Yes, it is because of Irrlicht. |
| 09:24 |
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| 09:26 |
lissobone |
I've heard that minetest will switch to sdl at some point in the future. Will it? |
| 09:27 |
lissobone |
Sdl2, specifically. |
| 09:27 |
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| 09:29 |
lissobone |
But I think that switching to sdl2 would break a lot of mods that rely on b3d. |
| 09:39 |
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| 09:40 |
jaydemir |
Is there a way I can download a local copy of an online server to play offline? |
| 09:40 |
lissobone |
Like, any online server? |
| 09:41 |
jaydemir |
basically |
| 09:41 |
lissobone |
You can probably speak to the maintainer to get a copy of their server, and it also depends on the database backend they use. |
| 09:41 |
lissobone |
It will be slightly harder with postgresql. |
| 09:41 |
lissobone |
Sqlite3 would appear rather simple. |
| 09:42 |
lissobone |
I can't think of any other solution. |
| 09:42 |
jaydemir |
fair enough. Thanks! |
| 09:43 |
jaydemir |
It'd just be nice to explore without a connection, or sometimes just blow something up without upsetting anyone :P |
| 09:44 |
lissobone |
If there's worldedit, you can also ask an admin to save a specific region as a schematic and pass it to you by any means possible, so you can have fun with your little world. |
| 09:45 |
jaydemir |
gotcha |
| 09:45 |
lissobone |
Or just paste it somewhere at the altitude of 20000 and blow stuff up on that very server. |
| 09:46 |
lissobone |
The aerial space in minetest is rather broad, and conducting anything like that would probably not upset any player. |
| 09:50 |
lissobone |
Do you need such a world or a schematic, by the way? |
| 09:50 |
lissobone |
I've got one which has quite a lot of interesting builds. |
| 09:50 |
lissobone |
There are even trenches, which remained from past wars. |
| 09:53 |
lissobone |
Now I have a question. |
| 09:53 |
lissobone |
Why is minetest LGPL and not GPL? |
| 09:53 |
lissobone |
I know that LGPL allows program's code to be linked with nonfree software, but why? |
| 09:56 |
definitelya |
jaydemir: There's also the option "enable_local_map_saving", seems more straight-forward. |
| 10:30 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> local_map_saving is probably easier than poking the server owner to send over a world that might be a gigabyte or two in size |
| 10:31 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> it will save mapblocks loaded from the server in a local sqlite map database you can then put in a newly created singleplayer world |
| 10:47 |
lissobone |
Well, I didn't know that. |
| 10:47 |
lissobone |
Thank you for this information. |
| 10:48 |
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| 11:17 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> lissobone: Why would switching to SDL necessarily entail dropping B3D support? |
| 11:18 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Either (1) the irrlicht reader (2) the blitz reader could be ported, or just kept entirely if SDL is just to be added on top e.g. for enhanced joystick/controller support |
| 11:19 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> they probably aren't aware of what SDL does and does not providw |
| 11:19 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> provide |
| 11:22 |
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| 12:02 |
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| 12:22 |
lissobone |
b3d is slightly uncomfortable to use, requiring to install an external add-on in blender that doesn't always function properly. |
| 12:23 |
lissobone |
Do I have to use an older version of blender? |
| 12:27 |
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| 12:29 |
lissobone |
Greetings, warr. |
| 12:29 |
lissobone |
Warr*. |
| 12:31 |
lissobone |
Warr1024*. |
| 12:39 |
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| 12:54 |
Warr1024 |
Ah, thanks. My internets were down because I had a stupid bug in the script that rebuilds my firewall rules, introducing a syntax error, causing the default ruleset without the NAT rules to be loaded ... effectively taking down my router when the script re-ran :-D |
| 13:11 |
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| 13:52 |
lissobone |
I don't know what anything of this means as the most hacky thing I've ever done with my internet connection is establishing port tunneling in order to allow my friends access to my minetest server, hosted on my pc. |
| 13:52 |
lissobone |
In order to allow my friends access my minetest server*. |
| 14:00 |
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| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Ah, I might have done one hackier: I once ran a VPN server and forwarded a port over it so that somebody stuck behind CGNAT could run an MT server using my VPS as a proxy. |
| 14:13 |
lissobone |
Cranezhou. |
| 14:15 |
cranezhou |
i updated some of my posts on the forum.minetest.net. |
| 14:29 |
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| 14:31 |
lissobone |
Greetings. |
| 14:32 |
sfan5 |
btw there's a community maintained b3d exporter that works with up-to-date blender |
| 14:32 |
lissobone |
Where is it? |
| 14:32 |
sfan5 |
unfortunately I don't know |
| 14:32 |
sfan5 |
just that it exists... |
| 14:33 |
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| 14:33 |
lissobone |
The Legend of the b3d exporter. |
| 14:34 |
lissobone |
Only the worthiest shall find it. |
| 14:34 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/GreenXenith/io_scene_b3d |
| 14:34 |
sfan5 |
there we go, google helped |
| 14:34 |
lissobone |
I've seen it. |
| 14:34 |
lissobone |
But it threw a strange error when I exported a model. |
| 14:35 |
lissobone |
Some input/output error. |
| 14:35 |
lissobone |
I'll try to figure it out. |
| 14:35 |
pjalsDaniel[m] |
might be a problem with your system? |
| 14:35 |
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| 14:36 |
lissobone |
Yeah. |
| 14:37 |
lissobone |
It worked this time. |
| 14:37 |
lissobone |
Thank8s. |
| 14:39 |
lissobone |
But it looks somewhat uncomfortable. |
| 15:07 |
lissobone |
But it works. |
| 15:07 |
lissobone |
Now I have to figure out how to actually utilize blender's features. |
| 15:08 |
lissobone |
I have to make something which probably won't be tolerated here and on ContentDB. |
| 15:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There is no way to utilize Blender's features. There are simply way too many of them. |
| 15:10 |
lissobone |
It's not too many if its amount is not over unsigned integer limit. |
| 15:10 |
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| 15:10 |
rubenwardy |
is it NSFW? GreenXenith may be able to provide a place for that |
| 15:10 |
lissobone |
It's not NSFW. It's actually the opposite. |
| 15:11 |
rubenwardy |
oh, let me guess, crypto |
| 15:11 |
lissobone |
No. |
| 15:11 |
lissobone |
Not crypto. |
| 15:11 |
rubenwardy |
ok :D |
| 15:11 |
rubenwardy |
well, as you were |
| 15:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Just add some more anatomical components to make it NSFW so that you can get that support from GX |
| 15:11 |
lissobone |
It has a dancing jewish man. |
| 15:11 |
lissobone |
My friends asked me if I could make such a mod for no reason. |
| 15:12 |
lissobone |
This is the entire reason why I needed blender. |
| 15:14 |
lissobone |
By the way, I was wondering how are NSFW minetest mods handled. |
| 15:15 |
lissobone |
I had an idea of making a horror-themed game in minetest without jumpscares. |
| 15:15 |
lissobone |
It might need some exposed flesh. |
| 15:16 |
rubenwardy |
due to hosting, I can't host sexual content on ContentDB |
| 15:16 |
lissobone |
No, actual flesh: meat, bones, pulsating blood vessels, funky little worms. |
| 15:16 |
rubenwardy |
but horror and gore is allowed |
| 15:16 |
rubenwardy |
allowed until it isn't I guess. I don't have a problem with it, and I don't think it'll cause issues |
| 15:17 |
rubenwardy |
"horror" would be a good game jam theme |
| 15:17 |
lissobone |
So anatomically correct exposed flesh is allowed? |
| 15:18 |
rubenwardy |
hmm not sure |
| 15:18 |
lissobone |
Are "funky little worms" allowed? |
| 15:18 |
lissobone |
Whatever they are. They're probably not what you may expect. |
| 15:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> As I understand it, we aren't trying to impose moral judgements on content, but we have to deal with (1) volunteers who are hosting things like CDB and the serverlist may have restrictions imposed by their hosting platforms, and (2) the Play Store can impose restrictions on content that is allowed to be listed by default in the main menu, such as CDB packages or possibly even servers. |
| 15:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There can (and probably do) exist alternative outlets for content that's considered too problematic for those reasons though. If you have to dig into a settings UI and change a URL, then I think Play Store doesn't police that use-case. |
| 15:21 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> any packages with content warnings are already omitted from the android content browser by default |
| 15:22 |
lissobone |
Alternative outlets are some other available hosting options like gitlab repos or game or mod archives distributed in the community by different means? |
| 15:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Right, there are like 2 levels of content warning: too hot for play store (add the warning flag on CDB) and then too hot for CDB itself (look for an alternative). |
| 15:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If gitlab/github allows you to host it then you can always distribute it that way, but it might be harder to reach an audience, since there isn't the convenience of browsing and installing. |
| 15:24 |
lissobone |
Some people might find it fitting for a horror game, especially when its source is not hosted anywhere. |
| 15:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There was a project a while ago to setup a CDB alternative that allowed much more NSFW kinds of things, but I think it ran into some technical obstacles and I don't know if it ever got fully deployed (they wanted to have it be a "one stop shop" and also proxy/merge in things from the main CDB) |
| 15:24 |
rubenwardy |
most server hosting doesn't allow sexual content. There's also problems we may run into with schools and such, but we already have those problems with drugs and horror so eh |
| 15:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's kind of weird that some hosts may restrict specifically nudity, but allow gore/horror content ... so like you can show people with clothes, and people without clothes AND without skin, but just not without clothes but with skin. |
| 15:25 |
rubenwardy |
haha |
| 15:25 |
lissobone |
Instead, the archive is given to some user, then it is distributed to others, then others distribute it, and it becomes like some sort of a mysterious creepypasta. |
| 15:26 |
lissobone |
Maybe that would just be an ineffective way to distribute packages and no epic creepypasta + minetest virus (deletes your game and installs a secret broken minetest 6.0.0 version with jeff the killer and slenderman) |
| 15:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It seems like we should ship an "education edition" version that includes the content filters for desktop... |
| 15:26 |
rubenwardy |
that would be good |
| 15:27 |
rubenwardy |
well, I've asked educators about that and they don't need it |
| 15:27 |
rubenwardy |
that being an education edition build |
| 15:27 |
lissobone |
The weird rules regarding nudity are like: |
| 15:27 |
lissobone |
People with clothes on are 1, taking them off is -1, multiplying these two numbers, we get -1 (forbidden), but if we multiply it once more (take off a layer of skin), it becomes 1 again. |
| 15:27 |
rubenwardy |
they instead said they needed an easier way to host servers - like blockalot |
| 15:27 |
lissobone |
So it's allowed. |
| 15:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I mean if Lemente has been asking for AZERTY-sane default keybinds, it almost seems like users should have some kind of guided "config package" option where they pick sweeping defaults to start from or something. |
| 15:28 |
lissobone |
Like the ./configure in software packages on unix-like systems? |
| 15:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> MT works well for a lot of use-cases if you're willing to do some initial setup work, but the sheer number of settings that you might need to change can be daunting, and it's really hard to predict which ones are going to be likely necessary for a specific use-case, so it's hard to design a settings UI that hides stuff they really don't care about. |
| 15:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I mean, if there were a thing that NOBODY cared about, it wouldn't be a setting at all. |
| 15:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If it weren't for the technical difficulty of reliable access to the protocol, the idea of indexing available content in a decentralized DHT would actually be kind of neat :-D |
| 15:30 |
Lumia |
lissobone: that must mean skeletons are NSFW (-1 clothes * -1 skin * -1 everything under the skin = -1) |
| 15:30 |
lissobone |
Speaking of settings, I had an idea of just making every single variable in a software package that repeats itself somewhere a configurable value. |
| 15:30 |
lissobone |
Well, the brain is SFW then. |
| 15:30 |
lissobone |
And the |
| 15:30 |
lissobone |
What's under the brain? |
| 15:30 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> FWIW MCL was gonna make his own ContentDB, XtreemFreedomDB... haven't heard anything more about it though |
| 15:31 |
lissobone |
Hypothalamus or whatever it's spelled like? |
| 15:31 |
lissobone |
Hypothalamus is nsfw. |
| 15:31 |
lissobone |
What's lower? |
| 15:31 |
lissobone |
Individual cells? |
| 15:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> XtreemFreedomDB was probably going to be the Parler of MT: initially advertising absolute uncompromised freedom, then being forced by reality to put in moderation, and ultimately ending up even more restrictive than the original, until everyone flees back to CDB for moderation in moderation. |
| 15:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> lissobone: it depends. Animal cells are SFW, but plant cells stripped of their cell walls would be NSFW. |
| 15:33 |
lissobone |
Well, what's in the cells? |
| 15:33 |
lissobone |
The animal DNA is nsfw. |
| 15:33 |
lissobone |
Nucleotides are SFW. |
| 15:34 |
Lumia |
Well, DNA is the engine of reproduction ;) |
| 15:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The whole concept of SFW is a little funny when you remember that it's completely failing to take into account what people do for W. If your job is to edit adult films, and they have a strict "no netflix or youtube at work" policy, then what's SFW might actually be completely reversed for you. |
| 15:34 |
lissobone |
Nucleic acids are NSFW. |
| 15:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> No, DNA and RNA are fine, but transcriptase is not. |
| 15:35 |
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| 15:35 |
lissobone |
Then there are individual amino acids (SFW). |
| 15:35 |
lissobone |
OH and amino groups turn out to be NSFW. |
| 15:36 |
lissobone |
I think it's time to stop. |
| 15:37 |
lissobone |
And I don't really understand the problem with NSFW content (or even horror) and schools. |
| 15:37 |
lissobone |
Just tell students to close their eyes when you scroll through the NSFW section or like that. |
| 15:38 |
lissobone |
Or there should be an option that hides NSFW-tagged content from the user. |
| 15:39 |
lissobone |
But then I don't understand what's the deal with hosting NSFW content. |
| 15:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There are rational evo-psych roots behind our puritanical attitudes about sex, but it varies a lot between cultures (causing friction in the global MT community sometimes) and exactly what is restricted can vary based on where/who is providing the hosting. |
| 15:41 |
celeron55_ |
i'd be fine with having a google-style "show nsfw" on/off switch which defaults to off. but i'm finnish, we go to sauna naked with anyone, anytime |
| 15:41 |
lissobone |
As if some server owners are just chill dudes who don't care whatever you upload on their servers (unless it is smartboy theme park plans) and other are christians which forbid any sort of nudity. |
| 15:43 |
lissobone |
I don't really use google, but in duckduckgo there's a similar option: safe search (I always completely turn it off for obvious reasons). |
| 15:44 |
lissobone |
Who forbid*. |
| 15:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's not just specific religions. In the USA, pretty much everyone is conditioned to a much lower level of nudity. |
| 15:45 |
rubenwardy |
and conditioned to hate their bodies |
| 15:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, we have more of a reason for that than most, at least. |
| 15:47 |
lissobone |
In my opinion, it's better to not care about what others post anywhere on the internet and instead have optional client-side filters that would hide unwanted content. |
| 15:48 |
rubenwardy |
https://content.minetest.net/help/content_flags/ |
| 15:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Right, that would be ideal if we didn't have to worry about the fact that we have to rely on 3rd parties to provide hosting and internet services. |
| 15:48 |
rubenwardy |
specifically content warnings |
| 15:49 |
lissobone |
I usually host all my servers and games on my own computer and play that way with friends, though it's understandable why 3rd parties are required when it comes to hosting bigger and larger projects. |
| 15:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think ultimately though that there would be content we WOULD ban, if anyone tried to share it, and it was in our power to ban. Like anything that promotes the abuse of other people in certain ways, like things promoting racism or sexual abuse. |
| 15:50 |
celeron55_ |
rubenwardy: is there a way to search by content warning? 8) |
| 15:50 |
lissobone |
I don't know how can a minetest mod promote sexual abuse, but at least I can imagine what racism would look like. |
| 15:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> c55 you're not the first to ask for that feature :-) |
| 15:50 |
lissobone |
Is racism even relevant in 21st century? |
| 15:50 |
celeron55_ |
i'd like to play some doom, but only have minetest installed |
| 15:51 |
celeron55_ |
it's a practical question |
| 15:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You always host stuff with 3rd parties. If you're using your own computers, then the 3rd party is your ISP. Actually most "own computer" setups that people do are on residential internet access where their restrictions on hosting are MORE severe than cloud services. |
| 15:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Compared to Doom, we have quite a lot of firearms-related content, but actually very little blood/gore. |
| 15:51 |
rubenwardy |
haha, racism is definitely still a big problem today. It hasn't gone away |
| 15:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If you don't see a lot of racism around you, then either it's moved somewhere else where you don't see it, or it's really effective near you. |
| 15:53 |
lissobone |
Well, yeah, I have though a little more and realised that it's a very big deal. |
| 15:53 |
lissobone |
And it's not even white people. |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I live in the USA and it's a major problem here. Elsewhere in the world, it might be somewhat less specifically racism, but there are often other related -isms that accomplish the same result. |
| 15:54 |
muurkha |
well, the USA is pretty much based on racism |
| 15:54 |
lissobone |
Asians, especially Koreans, are rather racist towards foreigners, including when it comes to jobs. |
| 15:55 |
rubenwardy |
need that spongebob meme, but ending with BLM outside the house |
| 15:55 |
lissobone |
Let's keep such topics to private conversations. |
| 15:56 |
muurkha |
probably better |
| 15:56 |
lissobone |
I don't feel safe speaking about BLM. |
| 15:56 |
kilbith |
I'm not a racist but I hate everyone equally |
| 15:56 |
rubenwardy |
The USA is based on racism like how the UK is based on classism |
| 15:56 |
lissobone |
Based. |
| 15:56 |
muurkha |
yeah |
| 15:57 |
lissobone |
Kilbith, you are the mostest basedth sigma alpha male on the whole libera. |
| 15:57 |
rubenwardy |
I hope you're using that term ironically |
| 15:57 |
lissobone |
Of course I do. |
| 15:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> based is just the opposite of acided |
| 15:58 |
lissobone |
Just keep in mind that I will never seriously discriminate anyone or anything. |
| 15:58 |
Pexin |
both caustic |
| 15:58 |
lissobone |
What's the opposite of caustic? |
| 15:58 |
lissobone |
Neutral? |
| 15:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> We all discriminate, it's just sometimes it's unfairly, and sometimes it's fairly, and we are phenomenally bad at telling the difference. |
| 15:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> the opposite of caustic should be effectic. |
| 15:59 |
lissobone |
It's better to just not discriminate anyone to eliminate any possible confusions regarding fairness. |
| 16:00 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> lissobone: late but, my fork of the b3d exporter is not updated to run on 3.x yet |
| 16:00 |
lissobone |
It somehow ran. |
| 16:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "discrimination" is basically just the act of differentiating things. You have to do it every time you make a choice. It's a matter of figuring out what factors should actually factor into your decision and which shouldn't. |
| 16:00 |
lissobone |
Discrimination can be rational and irrational. |
| 16:01 |
lissobone |
Rational is based on actual facts and conditions, while irrational is based on the appearance and insignificant qualities. |
| 16:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I mean, the unfair kind is "rationally" motivated too, it's just not actually for the purpose that people claim it is. |
| 16:01 |
lissobone |
For example, irrational discrimination is based on skin color. |
| 16:01 |
lissobone |
Rational discrimination is deciding whether or not racists are right. |
| 16:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Did it successfully export? (Is the model correct and animated in minetest?) |
| 16:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Like, you can rationally discriminate against somebody based on characteristics irrelevant to the decision because doing so perpetuates a system that benefits you in other ways. It's when you do things like that at somebody else's expense that you lose the ability to justify it. |
| 16:02 |
lissobone |
Well, I haven't actually tried it yet. I'll quickly do it right now. The version of blender is 3.3.1 (r like that). |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Ah. Yeah blender will start up, but it should error on export, or at least export garbage |
| 16:03 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> (Solution is to use the latest 2.9x release) |
| 16:04 |
lissobone |
Well, my character is a literal giraffe now. |
| 16:04 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Sounds about right |
| 16:04 |
lissobone |
It works, but it looks so funny. |
| 16:04 |
lissobone |
Yeah, about right. |
| 16:04 |
lissobone |
That means it works, but not correctly. |
| 16:05 |
lissobone |
It looks fantastic. |
| 16:05 |
lissobone |
I love it. |
| 16:05 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Lol |
| 16:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It works correctly retroactively. |
| 16:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "The output is not what I intended a priori, but it's what I intend now." |
| 16:06 |
lissobone |
By request of my friends, I tried to make a model for a particular mob that would wear a jewish payot with a respective fedora hat. |
| 16:07 |
lissobone |
But I think that this would be way better. |
| 16:07 |
lissobone |
I just need to set a different texture. |
| 16:07 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> This is a first. Can't say I've seen a reaction like this before |
| 16:08 |
lissobone |
What I see: a character has its torso and legs on their respective place, but the arms are very high up and separated, and the head is also floating in the air. |
| 16:08 |
lissobone |
The arm movement is somewhat distorted, as the shoulders shouldn't move that much, but now they move more than the arms themselves. |
| 16:08 |
lissobone |
But the head behaves fine, disregarding the fact that it's detached from the body. |
| 16:09 |
lissobone |
It looked worse in the blender preview. |
| 16:10 |
lissobone |
(You may interpret is as "better"). |
| 16:10 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> lmao |
| 16:10 |
lissobone |
it as*. |
| 16:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Green will eventually publish 2 forks of the b3d exporter: one that exports on 3+, and one that exports on 2- but produces meme fodder on 3+. |
| 16:11 |
lissobone |
It's not meme fodder. It's a masterpiece of 3d sculpting. |
| 16:14 |
lissobone |
The masterpiece. |
| 16:14 |
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| 16:15 |
lissobone |
It's a joke, of course, but that bug certainly enchances the required result. |
| 16:15 |
lissobone |
The walking animation already looks like dancing. |
| 16:16 |
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| 16:51 |
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| 17:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Abdou-31> Hi everyone! |
| 17:32 |
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| 17:36 |
lissobone |
Greetings, pal. |
| 17:43 |
lissobone |
Remember how I mentioned the horror game idea that includes exposed flesh and living organs? |
| 17:44 |
lissobone |
My brain has been building on it further since we talked about it. |
| 17:45 |
lissobone |
It should look like a generic minetest house building experience at first, but then, from the darkness of the night... nothing will emerge as there are no mob mods installed. |
| 17:45 |
definitelya |
SFW brain time! B) |
| 17:46 |
schwarzwald[m] |
About the b3d exporter: Who is in touch with the community on this topic? Whose benefit are we seeking with the b3d exporter improvements? |
| 17:46 |
lissobone |
But then, the player would discover chunks of living flesh underground connected by blood vessels buried in stone layers, and its frequency would increase as he went deeper. |
| 17:47 |
lissobone |
Then, [SUBSEQUENT DATA EXPUNGED]. |
| 17:47 |
lissobone |
I've seen a forum discussion regarding the b3d exporter. |
| 17:47 |
lissobone |
You might have seen it too. |
| 17:47 |
lissobone |
Tcll tried to reverse engineer the format and build his own exporter. |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> So if you're finding meat ore, then instead of building houses and being attacked by mobs, you build mobs ... so maybe you could be attacked by houses. |
| 17:47 |
definitelya |
lissobone: Neat. |
| 17:48 |
lissobone |
No, no houses. |
| 17:48 |
schwarzwald[m] |
lissobone: He eventually got discouraged as I recall. |
| 17:48 |
lissobone |
Yeah, he got discouraged as he considered the b3d format garbage, and then got completely disappointed in the entirety of minetest as there's so much he can't do. |
| 17:48 |
lissobone |
Well, there's so much others can do. |
| 17:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> that sounds like the quintessential "this should be easy to fix" minetest experience. |
| 17:49 |
lissobone |
The houses will become part of the Organism, passively absorbing organic particles and minerals from nearby plants, fungi and the ground. |
| 17:49 |
definitelya |
I saw a horror game once and its theme was a house that became monstrous, like made of meat and such... |
| 17:49 |
definitelya |
It was mostly figurative horror though. |
| 17:50 |
lissobone |
Nothing will attack the player as he is made of living meat too. |
| 17:50 |
lissobone |
Loving meat. |
| 17:50 |
lissobone |
Loving flesh. |
| 17:50 |
definitelya |
cweepy |
| 17:50 |
lissobone |
This will be the name. |
| 17:51 |
lissobone |
But there will be secrets hidden deeper beneath the folds of the Organism's skin and between its numerous organs. |
| 17:52 |
schwarzwald[m] |
I don't know whether you guys are interested in this at all, but today I've been thinking a lot about how we (as individuals, not just the Minetest community) benefit others and why. Since Minetest is open source, I'm sure those of us who contribute to it have strong motivations, since we're willing to do it for free. But what are those motivations? Why do we do this? |
| 17:52 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Just something that's on my mind now, so I thought I'd share it. 😄 |
| 17:52 |
lissobone |
The player will be allowed, I think, to feed on the meat. |
| 17:52 |
lissobone |
We create fun experience for each other. |
| 17:52 |
lissobone |
That's how we benefit ourselves and each other. |
| 17:53 |
lissobone |
For example, my manhunt mod was initially my personal project because I wanted to play such a game with friends, but there was no such mod available, but then I discovered that others may really like it too. |
| 17:54 |
lissobone |
And minetest is also educational in terms of using mathematical formulas in mods and also while reverse engineering the code. |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> A lot of us don't enter into the process of creating something under the assumption that the only reason to do so is to get something in return. I just made a game because I wanted that game to exist, and I shared it because I was proud of what I'd accomplished with it. |
| 17:54 |
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| 17:54 |
lissobone |
Yeah, but I'll kill that mosquito first. |
| 17:54 |
lissobone |
Done. |
| 17:55 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Ah, I didn't mean that we do this for something in return. On the contrary, it's exactly that we do this without expecting something in return that's fascinating. |
| 17:55 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Well, maybe some of us expect something out of it, I don't know. xD |
| 17:55 |
lissobone |
Some may pursuit different goals: some may want to get famous for making a great mod, some may want others to have fun, some want to have their own Fun with their mod. |
| 17:55 |
lissobone |
Their mod, their game, their texture pack. |
| 17:55 |
Pexin |
what Warr1024 said. "there's a game I want to play, but the only way it will exist is if I make it" |
| 17:56 |
lissobone |
Making anything in minetest is a form of art. |
| 17:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It shouldn't be fascinating to do things without expecting tit-for-tat, it's just that we've been sort of conditioned to believe that that would be more normal. |
| 17:57 |
lissobone |
What applies to art also applies to minetest creations. |
| 17:57 |
Pexin |
unfortunately it's too late in life for me to learn to *really* make a game, so I sometimes poke at MT code to learn from it |
| 17:58 |
lissobone |
Looking at others' works is a very important part of learning to create your own noes. |
| 17:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I have the skills necessary to make what I've made, and so in a way, I already got my payment up front without the expectation that I would necessarily do something in return for it ... so it's a lot easier to just see my own creation as a continuation of that same process. |
| 17:58 |
lissobone |
Ones*. |
| 17:59 |
definitelya |
schwarzwald[m]: The elevated compassionate person VS the loathsome discreeminating gremlin. |
| 18:00 |
Pexin |
so you mean kilbi- |
| 18:00 |
* Pexin |
peers around |
| 18:00 |
definitelya |
In all seriousness, there's so much wrongness if you look enough around; I'd rather make others' day a little brighter. |
| 18:01 |
definitelya |
Pexin: :0 NO |
| 18:01 |
* Pexin |
bad joek |
| 18:01 |
definitelya |
Nah u good |
| 18:02 |
schwarzwald[m] |
I need to go for lunch. I'll probably be back again later. |
| 18:02 |
lissobone |
This is what altruism is. It is an inalienable part of the structure of the human society. It's not just a part, it's a biological phenomena. |
| 18:03 |
definitelya |
Well said |
| 18:07 |
lissobone |
I've got a question. |
| 18:07 |
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| 18:07 |
lissobone |
Is it ok to make textures for a mod/game before everything else? |
| 18:07 |
lissobone |
Becuase I always do so. |
| 18:07 |
Pexin |
no. police will get you. |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> oh no 😳 |
| 18:08 |
lissobone |
Also, can anyone suggest a good audio editing utility besides ffmpeg, which I always used? I can actually install the old version of audacity (my previously favorite program) when it wasn't bought yet. |
| 18:10 |
lissobone |
It was bought by muse group (not mese!), as I recall. |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> the audacity telemetry debacle was heavily overblown anyways |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> they never ended up implementing it in a stable release |
| 18:13 |
lissobone |
Does it mean that there's no actual telemetry in it? |
| 18:15 |
lissobone |
I don't particularly care if anyone from muse group sees '/home/lissobone/smartboy_theme_park_ideas/', but no surveillance in an audio editor is desireable. |
| 18:19 |
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| 18:24 |
rubenwardy |
when it comes to game dev, it's better to get the game working first rather than making all the art first |
| 18:24 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Thanks for sharing your motivations. It was cool to hear them. |
| 18:26 |
rubenwardy |
there's an argument that the time spent building a b3d exporter would be better spend adding gltf / dae support to MT |
| 18:29 |
definitelya |
schwarzwald[m]: No problem, also wb. |
| 18:29 |
lissobone |
You mean that adding support for modern formats is better than struggling with an outdated format? |
| 18:29 |
lissobone |
Fair. |
| 18:29 |
lissobone |
(No, I am not joking, if it looked ironic). |
| 18:30 |
schwarzwald[m] |
The cost of getting the previous exporter working is probably lower than adding support for a modern format, unless we use a library. |
| 18:31 |
schwarzwald[m] |
The cost of getting the previous exporter to a maintainable state is probably very high in my opinion, due to the sheer amount of logic. |
| 18:31 |
lissobone |
Well, then it's a tough choice. |
| 18:32 |
lissobone |
But I would go with adding support for modern formats as they would most certainly have better documentation. |
| 18:32 |
lissobone |
SO much would. |
| 18:32 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Good point. They would also be more likely to have maintained tooling support at least in the near future. |
| 18:33 |
schwarzwald[m] |
I think our woes with the b3d format right now can be summed up in the phrase "tooling support". |
| 18:33 |
schwarzwald[m] |
And bone animation? (hello luatic) |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I have a b3d reader & writer in pure Lua as part of a Minetest mod. I'm just not familiar enough with Blender to stick them in a plugin. |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Josiah submitted a pr a few days ago I need to merge |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Has some code quality improvements |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I believe x2048 had one too |
| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Might make it easier for me to update the addon to 3.x |
| 18:35 |
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| 18:36 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Yeah, I was testing out an online code quality tool. It's super lenient - ranks the b3d exporter at a B. |
| 18:37 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> But as soon as i merge quality PRs and update it to 3.x, I would really like to stop maintenance to encourage implementing a modern format |
| 18:37 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Not going to ask you to merge it necessarily. Up to you and what your goals with it are. |
| 18:38 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Slightly confused what you mean there |
| 18:38 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Luatic, how easy do you think it would be to translate the Lua into Python? How many hours of work? |
| 18:39 |
schwarzwald[m] |
I mean if you want to encourage implementing a modern format then you don't even need to bother merging my PR. |
| 18:39 |
schwarzwald[m] |
I just had some free time and was playing around. |
| 18:39 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Oh, you're Josiah? |
| 18:39 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Oh, lol. |
| 18:39 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Yes, I'm Josiah, sorry. |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Most important context of the day right there |
| 18:41 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Sorry about that, it was rude of me not to consider how my nickname appears to you all. |
| 18:41 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Luatics implementation relies on some nuances that tables have, it doesn't translate directly to python very well (my wip rewrite has some similarities to his implementation) |
| 18:41 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Haha, no worries |
| 18:48 |
lissobone |
I don't know what is happening, but you speak funny words, magic man. And I know how much effort it takes to make such a serious piece of software since I once tried to do so, but it's that hard maybe because I am just inexperienced. |
| 18:48 |
lissobone |
Is it hard? |
| 18:51 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Hard to write something like the b3d exporter? |
| 18:56 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Doing work takes work. |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> schwarzwald: oof, estimating things is hard... a couple hours? 2-4 maybe? Depending on your familiarity with Lua, my sparsely commented code & Python OFC. See for yourself: https://github.com/appgurueu/modlib/blob/264687e30239608eb6ccfca11ecbeb5f0cda90a9/b3d.lua#L318-L525. |
| 19:16 |
schwarzwald[m] |
I'll bookmark. |
| 19:16 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Oh, this looks pretty clean at first glance. You're a great inspiration, luatic. |
| 19:18 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> That estimate is accurate, thats about how long it took me to make the wip reader |
| 19:19 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Unfortunately the important part of the addon is the inverse of what luatic has 😩 |
| 19:20 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Ah, the importer? |
| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Actually I forgot he wrote a writer too, at one point it was just a reader |
| 19:21 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Ahh, the writer then. |
| 19:21 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Sure enough, the code shows a reader and a writer. |
| 19:21 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> My idea was to write the importer first so I could better understand what the file structure was supposed to look like and how blender intended to use the data, then the exporter would be easy |
| 19:21 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Finding b3d specification was not easy. |
| 19:22 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Luatic mentioned that we don't support the whole specification. |
| 19:22 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> But of course I'm never happy with the first implementation and it just became enough of a bother that I'd rather just spend the time implementing just the reader for a modern format in the engine |
| 19:22 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Idk, I had the full b3d spec included in the addon |
| 19:23 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> There are maybe 2 features of the format that are specific to the blitz3d engine that have little value to us |
| 19:24 |
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| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> But also yes there are some features that model formats tend to have that irrlicht doesn't utilize, even if the b3d files have them |
| 19:25 |
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| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> But the exporter technically isn't even exporting correctly, but we've just quietly ignored that for the past decade |
| 19:26 |
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| 20:41 |
schwarzwald[m] |
I would be happy to spend an hour just coding for fun this afternoon. If you happen to feel the same way, we could experiment with implementing a modern format loader or something. |
| 20:43 |
schwarzwald[m] |
I've already read the abstract interface for the model loaders, and it's not complicated. Just one function to decide based on the file extension whether we can load the mesh, and one function to create the mesh and give back a raw pointer to the mesh object. |
| 20:44 |
schwarzwald[m] |
If we could find a library to do the model parsing, we would just have to figure out how to move the data into the mesh object correctly. |
| 20:44 |
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| 21:09 |
schwarzwald[m] |
@GreenXenith |
| 21:14 |
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| 21:36 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Or if Warr wants to mess around with the ABI thing I'd be up for that as well. |
| 21:42 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> schwarzwald: give me a minute |
| 21:53 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> schwarzwald: Perhaps https://github.com/syoyo/tinygltf would work? |
| 21:55 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Actively maintained, full features, probably light weight. I havent read the irrlicht model interface, but last I checked it was missing some features that modern formats want(?) |
| 21:57 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Hmm, that could be. |
| 21:57 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Did you find any alternatives to this library? |
| 21:58 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> For instance, I am uncertain if bone scaling exists, interpolation has been faked the entire time so that might not be there, I would really like armature binding, and im sure gltf has some other useful things that ought to be usable |
| 21:59 |
schwarzwald[m] |
If we can get it working without necessarily supporting all the features, that would be a good start. |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> sure |
| 22:00 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> https://github.com/dgough/lazy-gltf2 dead, not popular; https://github.com/code4game/libgltf was active, not terribly popular; |
| 22:00 |
schwarzwald[m] |
tinygltf seems to be the main one. pfirsich/gltf is the only other option that comes up quickly. |
| 22:00 |
schwarzwald[m] |
https://github.com/pfirsich/gltf |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> looks dead too, also not popular |
| 22:01 |
schwarzwald[m] |
This one doesn't seem to have all features implemented, and I'm concerned about portability issues. |
| 22:01 |
schwarzwald[m] |
So tinygltf looks like the best option. |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> tinygltf just seems like the correct option; Large userbase, actively maintained, full feature set |
| 22:02 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Do you want to live share? I have both Visual Studio C++ and VSCode - no idea how to liveshare Minetest development on Windows though. |
| 22:02 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Also in case anyone is wondering, Im going with GLTF over Collada because GLTF is a far better standard, is designed better, designed by khronos, and isnt xml. |
| 22:04 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> might be worth hopping in a discord call for a minute if thats easier |
| 22:04 |
schwarzwald[m] |
Sure. |
| 22:04 |
schwarzwald[m] |
In DM? |
| 22:04 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> yeah |
| 22:25 |
fluxionary |
when an entity is unloaded and serialized into a mapblock, what is stored? position, the name of the entity, the results of staticdata, anything else? |
| 22:35 |
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| 22:45 |
mazes_83 |
from my small experience I think it's quite all. Other feedback may be more complete on this point and would also be appreciated here |
| 22:48 |
mazes_83 |
thinking a bit velocity and other physics aspect seems to be stored to. if you do not load a mod it's unknow entities still continue to move any case. |
| 22:51 |
fluxionary |
mazes_83: good point about the velocity, i've certainly noticed that |
| 22:52 |
fluxionary |
i think i've found the relevant code |
| 22:53 |
fluxionary |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/25c5400250c5c6877e2144a759995aa47b24cff3/src/server/luaentity_sao.cpp#L29-L80 |
| 22:53 |
fluxionary |
so name, state (?), hp, velocity, rotation |
| 22:53 |
fluxionary |
now to figure out what "state" is |
| 22:55 |
fluxionary |
oh that's the staticdata |
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