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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-05-17

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04:59 erle i should probably get a palette with more than 12 colors … https://mister-muffin.de/p/kzDx.png https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/maps/src/branch/master/init.lua
05:05 erle at one point snow was yellow by accident (don't eat yellow snow) https://mister-muffin.de/p/mnSF.png
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06:01 nk_ hello
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06:02 Guest48 hello
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06:23 Pexin erle: where the huskies go?
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06:44 erle Pexin, what do you mean?
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09:52 settl3r[m] Do "/msg"-sent messages get stored, so that the other player receives it after he gets back online in the server it was sent?
09:54 rubenwardy No
09:54 rubenwardy There are mods for that
09:54 rubenwardy But by default no
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10:00 settl3r[m] Ok.
10:00 settl3r[m] By the way, on some servers i saw that some players had physical mailboxes inside the gameworld, can i use these to write them a message which gets stored for them?
10:00 settl3r[m] Or are these purely decorative?
10:02 settl3r[m] oh.. do i need paper (from papyrus) and a quill (plus ink?) to be able to write a message?
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10:22 calcul0n settl3r[m], in mtg you can make writable books from paper but you don't need ink
10:23 calcul0n and the mailbox is probably the one from homedecor, it lets people put all kind of stuff for the owner
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10:29 Wuzzy What do I need to to for Tutorial be allowed on ContentDB again? Like, which mods *specifically* are offending?
10:29 settl3r[m] hm.. so i "only" need to cultivate papyrus to be able to put them a book into their mailbox, with my message?
10:29 Wuzzy because the Tutorial "game" is currently delisted :(
10:34 calcul0n settl3r[m], yes
10:35 calcul0n with farming redo you can also make paper from hemp btw
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11:14 settl3r[m] ok.
11:14 settl3r[m] on another topic, how can i revoke my own privs in singleplayer? i want to create a game, where all cheats are disabled forever.
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11:16 settl3r[m] or can i create a secondary character for that world, which has only <interact> priv?
11:17 settl3r[m] in Minecraft, when switching to hardcore, it was impossible to ever switch the gamemode later, i really loved that mode.. is there something similar possible in Minetest? a certain subgame, maybe?
11:23 Wuzzy not that i know of
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11:34 MTDiscord <MisterE> settlr,
11:34 MTDiscord <MisterE> https://tenor.com/view/well-yes-but-actually-no-well-yes-no-yes-yes-no-gif-13736934
11:36 MTDiscord <MisterE> You can delete the creative mod, override the chat commands that grant you privs, probably remove the 'disable damage' checkbox, but then again, you qan revert those chandes again just as easily as you can make them
11:37 MTDiscord <MisterE> *can, *changes
11:37 MTDiscord <paradust> there's a really simple trick to reverse hard mode on minecraft
11:38 MTDiscord <MisterE> You are about to ruin minecraft for him forever O.o
11:38 MTDiscord <paradust> >:)
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12:16 erle it's really obvious how well fleck handled the shading for maps when you only use flat colors: https://mister-muffin.de/p/4Vqq.png
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13:28 Pexin settl3r[m]: there is a mail mod where you only need to type /mail to get a send/rcv/read UI, and notifies the recipient on login when there are new msgs
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13:31 Pexin erle: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TLIppgE45wM
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15:16 erle it's treasure map time hehe https://mister-muffin.de/p/U_HM.png
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15:47 erle uh, is it true that people have been using texture modifiers to make signs, like savages?
15:47 erle i have read stuff to that effect and it seems … unfortunate
15:47 erle i mean i am pretty sure it is true, but anyone knows a mod that works like that?
15:48 MTDiscord <luatic> Many, many mods render text to textures using the combine texture modifier
15:48 MTDiscord <luatic> Player nametag mods do it
15:49 MTDiscord <luatic> Basically all signs mods that display text in-world do it too
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15:58 erle luatic that seems horrible
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15:58 erle luatic why haven't they done it like you or me to it?
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16:05 MTDiscord <luatic> 1. Because there was no dynamic media when those mods were written
16:05 MTDiscord <luatic> 2. Because it works well and supports older versions
16:06 MTDiscord <luatic> 3. Because it's rather simpler (and the texture strings don't even get long i.e. for playernames)
16:06 MTDiscord <luatic> simple*
16:07 MTDiscord <luatic> In fact this may be more efficient due to the fact that [combine can blit arbitrarily high-res glyphs whereas "our" approach requires painting those as pixels.
16:19 MTDiscord <GoodClover> erle: How come the world is rendered at a lower resolution (scaled up) to the HUD in those images?
16:20 MTDiscord <GoodClover> is there a dial for that? Can't find anything relevant
16:21 erle GoodClover undersampling
16:21 erle undersampling = 4
16:21 erle in minetest.conf
16:22 erle luatic but there are bug reports “minetest can not handle my 3k texture modifiers” … ._.
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16:23 MTDiscord <luatic> erle: this kind of glyph rendering only requires one texture modifier (combine) though
16:23 MTDiscord <luatic> as long as the texmod string is below 16k (short string limit), you're golden
16:23 MTDiscord <luatic> (although you might want it to be shorter to not put unnecessary strain on the network)
16:25 MTDiscord <GoodClover> thanks :)
16:26 MTDiscord <luatic> erle: this really doesn't matter at all in comparison to Minetest not even getting acceleration right
16:26 MTDiscord <luatic> i.e. Minetest's physics, as simple as they are, are severely broken ._.
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17:02 alguien Does anyone know why the (client lua api) minetest.get_node_or_nil would always return nil, even for positions of loaded nodes?
17:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> maybe because the client mods aren't authorized to see those nodes?
17:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> IIRC client mods can be limited in access to nodes, possibly by range from the player or something...?
17:09 alguien MTDiscord, this is my local instance, and I (singleplayer) am right next to the node
17:12 erle alguien still check CSM restriction settings
17:14 alguien erle, I don't have csm_restriction_noderange, could it be that it defaults to 0?
17:14 erle no idea what are the csm bits
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17:16 sfan5 it defaults to zero yes
17:21 alguien sfan5, does that mean that by default CSMs are effectively blind?
17:22 sfan5 yes
17:22 sfan5 this was done at the concern of server owners that they could be used for cheating
17:24 alguien hmm
17:25 alguien i guess they could allow you to look underground...
17:25 alguien (i'm thinking if the radius was the same as say reachable radius)
17:25 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> sure they can let you look underground, but then again, so can a malicious minetest fork
17:25 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> like dragonfire
17:28 alguien MTDiscord, you mean it's a client-side restriction?!
17:28 sfan5 of course
17:28 alguien "of course"? what do you mean of course!?
17:29 alguien ay
17:29 alguien this makes no sense
17:29 alguien the malicious person just overrides it
17:29 MTDiscord <GoodClover> say that to the server owners that requested the feature
17:29 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> dragonfire is amazing, i use it for all my online banking transactions
17:29 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> it's also pretty good at getting around anticheat
17:30 alguien GoodClover: maybe they wanted a server-side feature
17:30 alguien like: don't send clients metadata
17:30 alguien not, send clients metadata, but tell them not to use it
17:30 MTDiscord <Warr1024> DF is not really MT's concern though.
17:30 alguien ?
17:30 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The CSM restrictions are really there for honest players anyway
17:31 alguien Warr: well apparently
17:31 definitelya Yeah, only certified malicious people can do that.
17:31 sfan5 alguien: as it turns out many people don't do things they aren't meant to if it's at least mildly inconvenient
17:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> i.e. anti-cheat isn't just for people who want to cheat no matter what, it also helps keep honest players honest by reducing temptation.
17:32 alguien sfan5, i don't think that works
17:32 alguien Warr: "isn't just" -> isn't at all
17:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Some people make anti-cheat features that are designed to prevent people from purposely cheating
17:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> but it's not easy to do very effectively
17:33 alguien sfan5, especially once it's default on most or all servers
17:33 sfan5 do you know how easy it is for an experienced person to pick a lock? how many people have you asked why they have a lock on their shed/bike/box/...?
17:33 sfan5 and do you have locks on yours?
17:34 alguien sfan5, i'm sure whoever can install a CSM can follow instructions to install or patch the client
17:34 alguien especially if servers by default don't allow them to be superior to others, which is the wish of their hearts
17:34 alguien this is silly
17:35 sfan5 you are now saying that it won't stop people who really want to do it while earlier you argued it won't stop anyone
17:35 alguien did I?
17:35 sfan5 Warr: "isn't just" -> isn't at all
17:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> alguien, I think we've heard these arguments all before
17:35 sfan5 hmm where did the <...> go
17:35 alguien sfan5, read the rest of that sentence
17:36 alguien "Everyone" aren't a concern
17:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's like saying that the hardware store shouldn't bother selling door locks because they just sell crowbars anyway.
17:36 alguien Warr: well you should've heeded them
17:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> We did heed them.
17:37 sfan5 alguien: it looks like we agree then, it doesn't stop dedicated people
17:37 sfan5 yet that does not make the feature pointless
17:37 alguien sfan5, it doesn't stop malicious people whose whole point is to hack
17:37 sfan5 correct
17:37 alguien well the feature does more harm than good
17:38 alguien i doubt server owners specifically asked you: please make my good-willed users blind
17:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You're arguing with the wrong people anyway
17:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> it's between you and the server owner
17:38 alguien Warr: you're defending it
17:38 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> if people want to hack, they use dragonfire. if you don't want them to hack, then somehow find a way to disallow dragonfire
17:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Apparently they don't think you should be able to use CSMs for this.
17:38 alguien Warr: not when it's the default
17:38 alguien Warr: only malicious people
17:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> only malicious people what
17:39 alguien Warr: mate we're not talking about a specific server, I'm running the game locally
17:39 sfan5 then disable it?
17:39 alguien apparently I don't want to let myself run CSMs?
17:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> oh, then you have even MORE no excuse for not being able to configure it.
17:39 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> if you want to cheat on a private game, go ahead
17:39 alguien sfan5, it's a silly feature
17:39 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> otherwise don't
17:39 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> csms are useful
17:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you think the feature is silly then disable it
17:39 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> this ^
17:40 sfan5 disabling it in singleplayer could be an useful suggestion
17:40 alguien Warr: you'll vote for my commit to make the default equal to the player reach range?
17:40 sfan5 the player cannot reach through solid nodes
17:40 MTDiscord <ZweiKamel> why would you disable it in singleplayer and not multiplayer???
17:40 sfan5 neither can the player reliably identify the exact node it is
17:41 alguien ZweiKamel?
17:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I will not vote for your commit because I don't have a vote anyway.
17:42 alguien sfan5, that could be further restricted. But to make the CSM blind by default only for honest players is still silly
17:42 alguien (either way)
17:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> A range of 1 or 2 (depending on whether the node the player is in counts and whether rounding is done before/after adding range to player pos) seems like it'd be very hard to argue against, though.
17:44 alguien Warr: and it would still be useful, as evidenced by the mod basic_robot which can only read_node in radius 1 too
17:45 alguien sorry i'm just angry that i can't do what I wanted, It's not your fault
17:46 alguien probably
17:48 alguien I'm not sure about sfan5 but I think the rest of you are off the hook XD
17:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's open-source software, it's going to have bugs, including issues where nobody can agree whether it's a bug or whether it's right and it'd be a bug the other way around.  If you can find a good compromise position that has strong rationale why it's better than the extremes, then there's still a decent chance of effecting change.
17:49 alguien Warr: your suggestion of 1 being default is good
17:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> My concern of course include how the rounding is done
17:50 alguien Warr I'm sure it can be done right
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17:51 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Can?  Definitely.  Will?  Well ... you increase the chances of that if you do it yourself 😄
17:52 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Is there a definitive and preferably succinct guide to how to contribute somewhere, walking through the issue -> concept approval -> PR -> review -> 2 approvals lifecycle?
17:53 alguien Warr: you'll do that for me? Thanks, you're the best XD
17:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Well, I guess on some level that IS the guide ... but maybe a bit TOO succinct :-)
17:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Generally, at least, last time I checked, PRs are supposed to start their lifecycle as an issue and the proposed solution needs to be concept-approved before a PR will be considered, so it's best to do that before you start digging too deep into the code.  People may raise some concerns that hadn't been considered and you may want to change the approach.
17:57 alguien More sillyness, ceck this out: I join a server, and my csm gets run, and a node returns the info. A few seconds later I guess it's only then that the restriction kicks in and I don't get the info. Ayayayayay puerto rico
17:57 alguien thanks for the tip Warr
17:58 definitelya c:)>
17:59 alguien oh no, it's not that, my bad
17:59 alguien it's that i was checking the grass node which was at the exact same position as I was. You know, radius 0? XD
17:59 alguien so I can check nodes, i just have to glitch into them hah
18:00 alguien yep, just checked a solid one now hehehe
18:01 alguien so technically and practically it's not as bad as i thought
18:02 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> The point of those CSM restrictions simply is to have SOME type of protection against possible cheaters on servers...of course there will always be those who know how to edit c++ source code or download cheat clients but the majority of users does not
18:03 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> There are no cheat clients for Android either I think so those issues only exist on desktop
18:03 erle Wuzzy do you have a lua algorithm for bresenhams axe?
18:03 erle Wuzzy like, displaying “uses left” in tooltips
18:04 alguien IhrFussel: bleh
18:04 alguien client side security ¬_¬
18:04 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> Or at least if any of the cheat clients does work on mobile it is not in the Play Store and needs to be downloaded from somewhere else which again almost nobody will do
18:05 alguien MTDiscord, fine, maybe a random "PVPer" doesn't get to one-shot people...
18:06 erle IMO the point of the CSM restrictions are to calm down server ownners who couldn't distinguish assistive technology from game-breaking cheats ever
18:07 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> what happened to never trusting the client, implement server-side anticheat
18:07 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> Many crucial things cannot be cheated from the client no matter how much you modify it like HP, damage, breath, punch interval
18:07 erle alguien this gives you a lot of CSMs and more APIs than vanilla minetest, don't cheat https://repo.or.cz/waspsaliva.git
18:07 MinetestBot [git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest: DevTest: Fix broken PNG textures eabf057 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/eabf05758e3ba5f6f4bb1b8d1d1f02179b84e410 (2022-05-17T18:06:15Z)
18:08 erle Wuzzy how did they get broken anyway?
18:10 MinetestBot [git] JakobDev -> minetest/minetest: Add vcs-browser and contribute URLs to Appdata db9b3af https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/db9b3aff75d920585c793639050ccccb18972cca (2022-05-17T18:08:32Z)
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18:11 alguien MTDiscord, are you sure? I've seen people who didn't die reaching 0 hp
18:11 alguien and their health regenerated on its own
18:11 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Which MTDiscord user are you talking to, IRC?
18:11 alguien IhrFussel*
18:12 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ah, I see
18:12 MinetestBot [git] savilli -> minetest/minetest: Remove confusing message in keybindings menu af37f9d https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/af37f9dc542e31f34d53da995ed86f2a3eacd9a5 (2022-05-17T18:11:08Z)
18:12 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Many things cannot be reliably cheated from the client side, IF the server mod/game code is setup to actually properly enforce certain mechanics and not just rely on default client behavior.
18:14 erle yeah
18:14 erle like, autokill
18:14 erle ridiculously easy to figure out if someone is hitting every entity in reach
18:15 Wuzzy erle: see #12328. sfan5's fault, apparently
18:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12328 -- DevTest: Fix broken PNG textures by Wuzzy2
18:15 Wuzzy erle: what do you mean with "bresenhams axe"?
18:16 erle yeah i want to konw which tool breaks PNGs. sfan5 do you remember?
18:16 erle Wuzzy the algorithm you use for tool usage calculation is similar to bresenhams line drawing algorithm. a friend of mine saw it and named yours “bresenhams axe”.
18:17 Wuzzy ahhhh
18:17 Wuzzy yeah you're not the first one saying this =)
18:18 Wuzzy i think i still have the Lua version of the code lying around somewhere...
18:18 erle Wuzzy if you can maek the lua code to determine usages left a mod it would be very nice
18:18 erle for tooltips
18:18 sfan5 erle: apparently I ran this: nice oxipng -o max games/devtest/mods/basetools/textures/basetools_*
18:18 sfan5 but I think there was something else, maybe stripping the iCCP chunk?
18:18 erle sfan5, oh is it better than optipng in some way?
18:19 sfan5 it can multithread
18:19 sfan5 also zopfli if you want it
18:19 Wuzzy See #11110. It contains the old Lua code I used to test out my maths. it's not ready-to-use for your usecase tho
18:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11110 -- Fix number of tool uses being off by 1..32767 by Wuzzy2
18:19 erle oh
18:19 erle zopfli i see
18:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I use advpng for zopfli ... and lately I've started using ect too, but it's super-brute-force slow
18:19 Wuzzy i use zopflipng for all my compressions =)
18:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> multithreading is less important of a feature as long as you have more files to process than you have cores :-)
18:20 erle a paletted map that my WIP mod generates. it will be used for treasure maps. so … water is nice, but how to draw land? https://mister-muffin.de/p/9Li5.png
18:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> erle I don't see anything wrong with your depiction of land per se as it is, unless you wanted to add like topographical contours or something.
18:22 fluxionary what's the proper way to check whether 2 objects/entities are the same thing?
18:23 alguien "<erle> ridiculously easy to figure out if someone is hitting every entity in reach" <- but not if they're doing it with a csm
18:23 Wuzzy fun fact: zopfli is named after this tasty thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zopf
18:24 sfan5 fluxionary: == works on ObjectRefs
18:24 erle alguien the CSM hits even invisible entities ;)
18:24 fluxionary sfan5: thanks :)
18:24 erle Warr1024 yeah i want contours or anything. like, this is just too barren.
18:24 sfan5 because there is only one ObjectRef instance in Lua for an object
18:24 alguien erle, *typetype* not anymore
18:24 erle Warr1024 like what if there is a chest hidden in a cave.
18:27 alguien please tell me a hacked client cannot set node metadata?
18:27 alguien in particular the "owner" field
18:28 Krock they cannot set node metadata on their own
18:29 MTDiscord <Warr1024> erle, instead of contours, one other option might be to detect certain terrain features like leaves/trees or something...
18:29 Krock interaction with formspecs are needed to do that
18:30 sfan5 the reason the node range is the way we discussed is that the client has limited knowledge of surroundings that it can't see, which is complicated to avoid
18:30 sfan5 map modifications aren't like that because it's not up to the client but the server, and the server only does what it is programmed to
18:31 Wuzzy erle: probably not exactly what you asked for, but this PR has some utility functions: #12047
18:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12047 -- Add helper functions to make tool usable n times by Wuzzy2
18:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Re: what hacked clients can do: generally they can move about freely, and trigger any event on the server they want, e.g. punch, place, dig.  There may be some protections in place to ensure those inputs are "sane" given the circumstances, but to allow for the game to be playable under lag, there's a lot of leeway by default.  What then CAN'T do is break out of the game logic once those events have been passed onto the server.  The
18:31 MTDiscord entity:on_punch or on_dig_node event or whatever is called, and then the game/mods have the chance to validate that action and the client can't do anything about that.
18:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> We could do a line-of-sight check for the nodes that CSMs are allowed to see, but (1) raycasts can be rather expensive, and (2) what counts as "sight" can be actually quite tricky.  If you can see the corner of a node, but a raycast from your camera to the center of the node would be obscured, should that "count" or not, and if so, how??
18:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've actually done a number of modding things where things are affected by "line of smell", so I'm doing like a floodfill algorithm to find things that influence something ... accounting for that kind of thing would make stuff get crazy complex pretty fast.
18:34 alguien Krock, can you elaborate please?
18:34 Pexin floodfill, you mean just shortest path?
18:35 alguien Krock, if a node provides a form, they can do that?
18:35 Krock alguien: only if the formspec is not properly secured
18:35 Krock there's no direct way for clients to write to any metadata
18:36 Krock difference being that clients can read out all public node metadata fields because they're needed for static formspec field expressions
18:36 Krock i.e. ${metadata_key}  unfolds to the value contained in the node metadata
18:39 erle what hacked clients are usually used for is either combad (between hackers), which looks like dragonballZ basically
18:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Pexin, yeah, floodfill as in connected to the starting point by any path up to a certain distance, but not in a particular direction (it can bend and twist around obstacles).  Actually ... similar to how light spreads in MT already.
18:39 alguien Krock, ay
18:39 erle and also quality-of-life things, like automatic eating or killing specific mobs in range
18:40 erle also tracers
18:40 erle tracers are so nice
18:40 erle should be in vanilla IMO
18:40 erle but the vast majority of cheat client uses i have witnessed was neither. it was automatic building.
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18:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> What hacked clients are good for is very often orthogonal to what I care about in my game so I usually don't try to block use of the clients preemptively, unless I see them actually find a way to meaningfully cheat, and actually try to exploit it...
18:40 erle and automatic mining.
18:41 alguien Krock, how would an insecure formspec look like? If you want, you can PM me btw
18:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> to be fair, alternative clients of various kinds (including "cheat" ones) can sometimes actually be necessary for certain users to some extent for accessibility reasons.
18:41 erle yeah, i think non-vanilla minetest clients are only a problem if your game is … very … grindy.
18:41 erle like, imagine if you could autodig, no one would complain about repixtures dig times.
18:41 Krock alguien: assume the fields are only sent to players who can see the formspec, that's mistake M°1
18:41 Krock * N°1
18:42 erle CSMs are super cool
18:42 Pexin CSMs wear sunglasses and drive motorcycles. It's true.
18:42 Krock number two being that you might forget to restrict list interactions which would "not be possible" in theory
18:43 alguien Krock, like "read only" fields?
18:43 alguien (not sure if that's a thing in formspec, just guessing)
18:43 Krock and final thought N°3 is that you assume a certain input value. dropdown selected values or table selections can be spoofed and be any invalid value
18:44 Krock more like, actions that the player is not allowed to do with the permissions you give them.
18:45 Pexin alguien: it's the difference between what the formspec can do, and how the formspec is triggered
18:45 Pexin re number 1
18:46 alguien Krock, thanks for the explanation
18:46 erle full recognition before processing, always
18:50 Krock yw
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19:20 erle is there a function like minetest.find_nodes_in_area_under_air() that just finds any nodes under air except air nodes?
19:21 erle (most air nodes are under air)
19:22 Krock custom_homebrew_functio394_that_uses_vmanip
19:22 Krock that's the function you'll need
19:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> that, or find_nodes_in_aread_under_air("group:everthing_but_air_group_i_hacked_in")
19:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> also are you sure you really want "under air"?  Or maybe you really want "under airlike" or even "under non-sunglight_propagates) ... vmanip would seem like the way to go then.
19:25 Krock group:not_in_creative_inventory,flower,tree,wood,cracky,stone,level,crumbly  if you need a hacky temporary solution
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19:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> heh, not bad, though not sustainable...
19:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> also, if those are MTG groups, they might not work quite right for a minclon* game.
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23:59 fluxionary has anyone ever proposed changing the fluid mechanics in minetest? i'm mostly interested in conversations people had about this in the past, if there were any.

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