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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-03-06

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11:08 MTDiscord <luatic> 56independent: oh hello there https://stackoverflow.com/users/14234512/56independent
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12:15 CieNTi Hi guys! I have a doubt regarding "the best approach" because I'm a bit lost with the information I found. There is the official MT (.net) with lot of things in github, and it seems is relatively new because previously there was things on gitlab
12:16 CieNTi then there is the forum, which seems the development announces, based on mainly github repos with a little information (little readmes, no screenshots or big explanations)
12:16 CieNTi then there is the "final" (.org), and also "big forks" like multicraft
12:16 CieNTi and there is also "mesehub" with a git that it seems the people use, instead of github
12:17 CieNTi the first question is here -> what to do? official one? version X or Y? best source of 'official' or 'updated' information?
12:20 rubenwardy CieNTi: .net is the official site and is not new
12:20 sfan5 the repository on gitlab.com is a mirror, the official one is at github.com/minetest/minetest
12:20 sfan5 git.minetest.land is just a git host like you said
12:20 CieNTi and the next -> there are mentions to some issue regarding "irrlicht". In official (.net) is not clear what is the problem, or if it is fixed (it seems like latest one is using a customized version? it is fixed?). In final (.org) complaints a lot about .net and how different this and that ... seems more like an internal war xDD but also says
12:20 CieNTi something about irrlicht
12:20 CieNTi what is the best approach? I'm kinda lost xD
12:21 sfan5 minetest.net is the one you want, the others are old/outdated
12:22 sfan5 and irrlicht is the graphics library we use
12:23 CieNTi thanks for replying, I assumed .net and github, but as a 100% new user to minetest (I never heard about it until 1 month ago, first because I never searched for minecraft alternatives until 1 month ago xDD) the amount of information is massive, and when you reach the forums the most of the threads are really really old ... so the "war" between 0.XX
12:23 CieNTi and 5.XX, and MT vs MC seems to be not completed on that ones
12:24 sfan5 well a few(?) people say they prefer the old 0.4 version but fact is that development only happens at 5.x
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12:25 sfan5 (for example the latest version 5.5 is from January)
12:26 CieNTi yeah, just for the records I'm asking my doubts, but my first approach was to go for .net and "as explained in the instructions", that is my current installation
12:26 CieNTi why there is that kind of preference, to keep a 0.XX instead of going to 5.X ?
12:27 CieNTi because I read it in a few places, but I cannot understand the reason xD
12:29 sfan5 it basically comes down to the fact that 0.4 servers are not compatible with 5.x clients (and the other way around), so people sometimes didn't want to move
12:30 Krock 5.x dumped quite some legacy code to improve code structure. the network changes (for good) made the versions incompatible
12:30 Krock obviously you'll find many new features in 5.x which 0.4.x does not contain
12:31 CieNTi so the real complain is more related to not being able to move from old maps/server to new ones?
12:31 Krock no. it's that old clients cannot connect to new servers
12:31 rubenwardy Maps are fully compatible
12:32 CieNTi xD then i fully dont understad why is that a problem xDDDDD
12:32 Krock whereas "new" refers to 3 year old binaries at this point
12:32 CieNTi I mean, if it is just a change in the sense you are explaining to me ... i would never complain about that, is just ... evolution of code and updates
12:33 rubenwardy There are quite a few forks that are never updated, and so the players are stuck on 0.4 and don't no better
12:33 rubenwardy But that would have been a problem eventually without a network break
12:33 CieNTi thanks all for answering my doubts :)
12:33 rubenwardy *know
12:33 CieNTi rubenwardy ahhh I see
12:34 CieNTi perfect then
12:35 CieNTi I have 2 things in mind with minetest .. one is pure personal fun and mod development ... the other is try to implement in my company as an alternate way of doing things
12:35 CieNTi and here is my second BIG doubt -> the connection to the outside world
12:35 CieNTi I saw the IRC mod, and a few others
12:36 CieNTi the main approach is always to create a bridge with lua, then a server which do/bridge othe things
12:36 CieNTi am I right?
12:37 rubenwardy There's a built-in https client API you can use to connect with outside servers
12:37 rubenwardy This is used for the discord bridge mod
12:37 CieNTi I mean, there is not already rcon-alike or similar, there is no this kind of network capabilities in a buil-in fashion, and you cook yourself the bridge of your needs, right?
12:37 rubenwardy For other things, you can use a trusted environment to get access to UDP and TCP sockets, although this isn't always super easy to set up
12:37 erlehmann CieNTi for client side mods, you are limited to giving out information via log files, such as in the mumble and rumble mods
12:38 CieNTi oooook perfect
12:38 CieNTi thanks
12:38 CieNTi I was more thinking in server mods really, but that is a reall nice point to know, thanks erlehmann
12:39 CieNTi thanks rubenwardy I had that idea in a "should be more or less", but a confirmation is really relaxing to me after all this information I read xD
12:39 CieNTi this half hour is worthing 1+ month xD
12:39 erlehmann CieNTi if you want to do more complicated client side stuff (e,g, automated structure building outside of creative mode), you have to use a cheat client like dragonfire and waspsaliva. those clients announce themselves as far as i know (“hi, i am using a hacked client”) and the only servers were you can be 100% sure you are not banned for automating game actions are calling themselves “anarchy servers”.
12:40 CieNTi Ohhhhh that explain a few other things hahahaha
12:40 erlehmann tell
12:40 erlehmann which things
12:40 erlehmann CieNTi rubenwardy wrote a book on server mods https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/index.html
12:41 CieNTi i was thinking all the time the anarchy thing as related more to a "free for all, pvp always on, I will kill you as soon as you spawn" thing
12:41 CieNTi not the hacked/modification thing
12:42 erlehmann pvp is always on indeed
12:42 CieNTi so that explain different things I read (I cannot remember exact right now), that does not fit into my "anarchy" concept
12:42 erlehmann but it is also that people on anarchy servers believe there should be no restrictions on clients
12:42 CieNTi about the book ... yes, I found it and saved as gold hahahaha (thanks rubenwardyfor your work! really explanatory)
12:42 erlehmann so the admins will not, for example, ban you for flying without fly privilege (but they may install serverside anticheat plugins, haha)
12:43 CieNTi ok
12:43 erlehmann and in general, MOST players on anarchy servers are nice, but a few lie, cheat and steal
12:43 CieNTi thanks a lot for all this information, really
12:43 erlehmann so it is a unique environment. instead of AI enemies you have super smart evil people called griefers who only want destruction.
12:43 erlehmann (it is fun for them)
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12:44 CieNTi yeah I found a pair of that guys ...
12:44 erlehmann usually the only things that are forbidden on anarchy servers are 1. crashing the server 2. doxxing people
12:44 CieNTi but it is true that most of the people I found in all the servers is nice
12:45 CieNTi are*
12:45 CieNTi (oh my english!)
12:45 erlehmann also if a server says “no dating”, what they actually mean is “no flirting or lewd chat”
12:45 erlehmann it took me a while to understand
12:45 erlehmann it is a slang thing
12:45 CieNTi hahahaha good to know
12:45 erlehmann and yes, if a server says “this is a dating server” (as oysterity does), you can be lewd in chat lol
12:46 CieNTi xDDDDDD
12:46 erlehmann but people might hunt you down lol
12:46 CieNTi hahahaha
12:48 CieNTi well I'm going to clean my environment after all this conversation, with the peace of mind of knowing the right way hahaha
12:49 CieNTi I'm far from it ... but if I want to collaborate with a mod, I assume github and minetest-mods like my basis, right?
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12:49 erlehmann i heard the story that there was one griefer who destroyed a lot of stuff but could not stand lewd text
12:49 erlehmann so people drove the griefer off with a script that spammed the chat with lewd bullshit lol
12:49 erlehmann CieNTi in general, try to be nice too please. and consider that the person you mete in game might be a young kid or someone who is much older than you. you do not know and it does not matter usually.
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12:50 CieNTi aahahahahahahaha what a punishment hahahahahaha
12:51 erlehmann CieNTi also some more tips: there are servers that have unique game structure. for example “minigames”.
12:51 CieNTi yes about to be nice ... it's always my preference xD
12:51 erlehmann also the server ”inside a box” is an escape room puzzle server
12:51 erlehmann it is very different from normal minetest
12:51 erlehmann think “portal” game, but without portal gun
12:51 erlehmann if you like puzzles, try also the singleplayer game ”alter”
12:51 CieNTi oh I see, thats pretty nice
12:52 erlehmann sorry the server is called “inside the box”
12:52 CieNTi it is brutal how big and different things can be made with minetest xDD
12:52 erlehmann if you like a challenge, try the game ”exile”. it is VERY hard.
12:52 CieNTi I also saw the CERN related one
12:53 CieNTi and I must admit that the f-king entrance is the same (I was there, I can confirm xD)
12:53 erlehmann also, there are mineclone2 and mineclone5. mineclone5 has more features, but it is … experimental … meaning it definitely has more bugs.
12:54 CieNTi i have mc2 because was my first try, but I want to try mc5 also
12:55 erlehmann they are abbreviated mcl2 and mcl5
12:55 erlehmann if you go on oysterity anarchy server i can show you around some time
12:55 CieNTi and what about nodeclone ? it says it is "another thing". it is like you explained "inside the box" or similar?
12:58 erlehmann you mean nodecore?
12:59 erlehmann in case you mean nodecore, it is a different type of gameplay
12:59 erlehmann with different crafting system
12:59 erlehmann also one game which is VERY cute but has no servers is repixture
12:59 erlehmann it has cute villages too
12:59 CieNTi oh lol I wrote nodeclone ... yes I was asking about nodecore xD
13:00 CieNTi repixture? I think I never read it ... I'll save it to get info
13:00 sfan5 https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/repixture/
13:02 CieNTi about oysterity -> I just joined to 30421
13:03 CieNTi repixture looks nice, i'll play it later to test it :D
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13:09 definitelya Minecore needs to be a thing; like a mix of "mine" and " encore", maybe.
13:09 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Minetest 2
13:09 definitelya Or just "mine the core", but that's boring.
13:09 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> @rust_shill_u128 Minetest Rust Edition? :P
13:09 definitelya jordan4ibanez: Yes, with 2X the development!
13:11 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Well you're going to have to create an irrlicht ffi
13:12 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Well, I suppose you could port irrlicht to rust and find out the errors and then fix the minetest version of it if there are any
13:15 erlehmann rewrite minetest in rust
13:15 erlehmann :---DDDDD
13:15 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> What have you started Rollerozxa oh no
13:16 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> When will we have the ability to load up Rust binaries as mods? 😛
13:17 definitelya inb4 "When the train comes to the station, all the complaining happens and we skip the release". :)
13:18 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> In the year 2047, Minetest version 1.0 is finally released, all it is, is an image of a single cube
13:19 definitelya jordan4ibanez: Oh I won't be fooled, there will *still* be bugs...
13:19 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> "Finally, perfectly optimized. No conflicting api views. Only cube"
13:20 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> reject minetest, return to cube
13:21 erlehmann jordan4ibanez as i said before, stop doing minetest: https://mister-muffin.de/p/4RY8.png
13:23 definitelya erlehmann: What about virtual Geomag? That'd be cool.
13:24 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> REAL Minetest
13:24 erlehmann by REAL developers HEHEHEHEHE
13:25 erlehmann definitelya this is the way: http://fffff.at/free-universal-construction-kit/
13:25 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> We are just playing with really, really low resolution CT scan programs
13:25 erlehmann > The Free Universal Construction Kit offers adapters between Lego, Duplo, Fischertechnik, Gears! Gears! Gears!, K’Nex, Krinkles (Bristle Blocks), Lincoln Logs, Tinkertoys, Zome, and Zoob.
13:26 definitelya Wow!
13:26 definitelya Krinkles? lol
13:26 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Hmmmm interesting
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13:45 Crawler hi
13:45 Crawler is here anyone with experience in modding?
13:47 definitelya Crawler: Of course, ask away and people will help you.
13:48 Crawler i have the problem that i have created a slab but in the inventory it shows as a normal node not a half and i search now over some days for a solution
13:49 Crawler the node is made with node-box when its important to know
13:50 definitelya I am not an expert in modding, but I would compare your node inventory image code to some other mod, like in the "stairs" mod.
13:51 Crawler you mean to create a special texture for this?
13:52 definitelya Dunno, probably. I just meant I'd check out how other mods do it.
13:52 erlehmann no it should work automagically
13:52 erlehmann if you have right node type
13:52 erlehmann i think
13:52 erlehmann Crawler show code
13:53 Crawler this are some lines... im allowed to post it here?
13:53 sfan5 you can put your code on as pastebin site such as https://paste.debian.net/
13:53 Crawler ah ok 1mom
13:53 definitelya lemon.
13:55 Crawler https://paste.debian.net/1233171/
13:55 erlehmann > drawtype = "nodebox", "allfaces",
13:55 erlehmann what
13:55 erlehmann that's not how it works?
13:56 erlehmann i suggest to remove the allfaces part
13:56 Crawler it was in for this that i have make tests
13:56 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Drawtype is of element type String, it looks like you've accidentally created a solo string element in that table after that, removing it should clean that up a bit
13:56 erlehmann inventory_image = minetest.inventorycube(my_blocks.tarray_slab[i]),
13:56 erlehmann remove this
13:56 erlehmann Crawler remove the inventory image
13:56 erlehmann then try again
13:57 Crawler ok 1mom...
13:58 Crawler lol... i have belives i need this inventory_image to show the items there x.x
13:58 Crawler thanks it work
14:00 MTDiscord <jordan4ibanez> Success!
14:02 erlehmann :)
14:02 erlehmann Crawler inventory cube always makes a full node
14:02 erlehmann a cube
14:03 Crawler good to know this... im searching now some days for this solution and to analyze other mods hasnt help me im a beginner and to understand the code of other persons is to hard for me
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14:05 erlehmann Crawler read the minetest book by rubenwardy. it is more useful to read it first then learning from other mods.
14:09 sfan5 tip: you almost never need to use minetest.inventorycube
14:11 Crawler i am only on study the API wiki but sometimes there are less informations about this
14:16 erlehmann Crawler read the book seriously https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/index.html
14:17 erlehmann you will be much better prepared for reading API documents after having read it
14:17 erlehmann i have seen many people try to learn from mods from other people
14:17 erlehmann the problem is, they will figure out how to do it somehow, but not necessarily the best way
14:17 erlehmann and misunderstandings of code are also happening that way
14:18 Crawler ah this website... there i was too but there i hasnt too found this solution what i have need
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14:22 erlehmann Crawler try to work through it a bit before you develop
14:22 erlehmann have patience
14:22 erlehmann it pays off to learn foundations
14:23 Crawler im a guy which learn better with learn by doing some thing i doesnt understand
14:24 Crawler *all of the meaning
14:27 Crawler my code looks on the first maybe terrible but im optimize them when i have learned new things
14:30 erlehmann yes, everyone says that
14:30 erlehmann everyone who likes to learn from other people's codes
14:31 erlehmann Crawler you will learn much better from other people's codes when you have fundamental understanding how minetest works
14:31 definitelya Crawler: Same, that's how I started my Linux migration journey.
14:31 Crawler my init.lua was on the start over 400lines after them i have start to use arrays my code is shrinked a lot
14:32 erlehmann regardless, the wiki is out of date at some points
14:32 erlehmann you should look into doc/lua_api.txt or how it is called
14:32 erlehmann for up to date documentation
14:36 Crawler the problem what i still not to understand is to import arrays or othertings into other parts of my mod because he say then that he cant find this what i give until if i give him were he has to looking for this
14:36 Crawler i see a lot of topic and codes but i dont get it how this work
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18:54 MTDiscord <MisterE> Crawler, start with reading the book, and using what you can understand fromeit to make something. Make more things as you go thru the book. Then head over to nathansalapat's (minetestvideos) modding tutorials, and repeat the process.  then skim thru the api, and try to understand a bit more. Then you will have enouch tools at your disposal to start making whatever you might want
19:03 Crawler actually i have a good way with small problems how the problem with the texture but how on the rubenwardy page there is as example no information what i have todo that i be able to see the frame inside of a framed glass on one picture he show only that the frame is missing there
19:06 Crawler when i look in other mods the glass looks the same as my but there are pictures were i can see the frame inside
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20:21 mazes_83 ouch me stupid
20:22 mazes_83 worked on "vehicle", but did logic by step, instead of time elapsed
20:22 mazes_83 on test game it's nice. but on loaded server: vehicle position stutters
20:23 Desour brumm bruummmmm brum brum bruuuuummmm
20:23 mazes_83 hope some will have fun reading this
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21:05 Komodo Hi all, is there a way to grab the world name from the game? For example, I would like NPCs or lorebooks to reference the name of the world the player or operator has setup. The closest function I can find that might work for this is minetest.get_worldpath()
21:06 Komodo but that gets the world path. maybe that can be used and just truncated with some code
21:06 Komodo https://dev.minetest.net/minetest.get_worldpath
21:06 Komodo minetest.get_worldpath(): returns e.g. "/home/user/.minetest/world"
21:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i think? minetest always gives it as / (even on windows) so you can do string.split on / and grab the last value
21:07 Desour Afaik the worldname is always the name for the world folder. So taking worldpath:split("/", false) should give you the worldname
21:07 Desour !doc Komodo
21:08 MTDiscord <Jonathon> scratch my above comment, minetest on windows does use \
21:08 Desour !api Komodo
21:08 MinetestBot Komodo, someone thinks you should read the API docs, please go to: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt
21:08 MTDiscord <Jonathon> so desour's method would fail
21:08 Desour ^ don't use the dev wiki
21:08 Komodo yeah, windows leans back, Linux leans forward is how I always remember that
21:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> a quick string.find for \ vs / would work, and then split on that
21:09 Komodo What is an alternative for the outdated unmaintined dev wiki? Ruben's book?
21:09 Desour !api Komodo
21:09 MinetestBot Komodo, someone thinks you should read the API docs, please go to: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt
21:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> the lua api is not an equivelent for the wiki desour
21:09 Komodo Thank you Jonathon and Desour, sounds like a feasible solution for what I'm tryint to accomplish. :)
21:09 sfan5 newer versions have a world name in world.mt
21:10 Desour doesn't minetest already replace the \s to /s when giving stuff to lua?
21:10 sfan5 you can also read that from lua
21:10 Komodo Noted, ty
21:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> desour: no
21:13 Komodo Thank you gents
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21:31 lemonzest any forum mods around? I just signed up and I've not gotten the conf email to activate, sent it twice now, is gmail addresses a problem?
21:32 sfan5 I can activate your account if you tell me the name
21:32 lemonzest lemonzest :)
21:33 sfan5 done
21:33 lemonzest woot thanks :D
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23:16 mazes_80 about lock mechanism: I see 'key_lock_secret' metadata copied from doors or trap to key skeleton, but I have no clue how it is assigned
23:16 mazes_80 pointer to sources files or hints
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23:18 Desour https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/search?q=%27key_lock_secret%27
23:21 mazes_80 already looked at this, the only way to get this key_lock_secret is from node metadata, but how is it assigned to node -> no clue
23:22 mazes_80 I thought I would find refs in engine sources, but nothing more
23:23 Desour you don't need to assign meta as a whole to a node. you get a metaref and set key-value pairs there
23:23 Desour it is then stored in the mapblock
23:23 Desour get_meta() returns a metaref, not a meta
23:24 Desour oh, and set_node deletes all meta. use swap_node if you don't want that
23:24 mazes_80 no no, I don't wan't to assign for nodes
23:25 mazes_80 I want to share keys for my vehicles
23:26 mazes_80 I guess I can initialize any string I want, just respecting unicity
23:26 MTDiscord <luatic> mazes_80: have you had a look at the keys mod? https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/tree/master/mods/keys
23:27 mazes_80 ofc
23:27 Desour https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/fff3b98ab0d1f47e2869ea83ec24da7faf41c80c/mods/keys/craftitems.lua#L31
23:27 MTDiscord <luatic> https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/240f9a6a8527d71376839d9efac70db9a6dd6566/mods/keys/craftitems.lua is what I would've linked
23:27 mazes_80 there's quite some step to achieve same result for entities
23:28 MTDiscord <luatic> why?
23:28 MTDiscord <luatic> in on_rightclick, you should be able to obtain the wielded item
23:28 Desour this looks awful, the secret is just some string created using a non-cryptographic PRNG
23:28 MTDiscord <luatic> then obtain the secret of that using item:get_meta():get_string("secret")
23:28 mazes_80 main help is from mods/default/functions.lua
23:29 MTDiscord <luatic> Desour: Granted, using SecureRandom might be slightly better, but I doubt that this can be exploited in it's current form
23:29 Desour to use keys for objects, you need to overwrite the key's on_use
23:30 MTDiscord <luatic> Yeah, there's two ways to go here: Either change the key to do something special if an entity is pointed, or change the entity to do something special if the player is wielding a key.
23:30 MTDiscord <luatic> but Desour: I think using cryptographic random would be very overkill here
23:30 mazes_80 guess from the entity side is easier
23:30 MTDiscord <luatic> NTM that on some odd BSD systems or whatever it might be unavailable and we'd have to fallback to the PRNG anyways
23:31 Desour using a non-crypto PRNG for such stuff is a underkill
23:32 Desour I wouldn't want to use a system that can not generate cryptographic random numbers
23:32 MTDiscord <luatic> I don't see how this could possibly be exploited. I didn't write this code and it's rather old but still the performance penalty a secure RNG would introduce needs to be justified.
23:32 mazes_80 string.format("%s:%x-%x-%x-%x", minetest.get_gametime(), math.random(1048575), math.random(1048575), math.random(1048575), math.random(1048575))
23:32 MTDiscord <luatic> what is this
23:32 mazes_80 string.format("%s:%x-%x-%x-%x", "mymod:myentity", math.random(1048575), math.random(1048575), math.random(1048575), math.random(1048575))
23:33 MTDiscord <luatic> ???
23:33 MTDiscord <luatic> this isn't the secret generation from the keys mod, although it does resemble it
23:33 MTDiscord <luatic> why the gametime or entity name?
23:33 mazes_80 just the way I use to get random IDs
23:33 mazes_80 entity name in this case
23:34 Desour "the performance penalty" is totally negligible as long as there's no weird construction that uses extreme masses of sceleton keys all the time
23:36 MTDiscord <luatic> Desour: A very sophisticated attack would have to (1) determine the secret you want to reproduce, which shouldn't be possible if it's properly marked private in node meta (although the inventories containing the keys get sent, so it could be obtained from there), (2)  pop the exact right amount of random numbers to get the right 4 (!) random numbers in a row, while many other mods are popping random nums for various different purposes and
23:36 MTDiscord (3) finally use the key to unlock something in a game
23:36 MTDiscord <luatic> Honestly, I consider this an easter egg. If you manage to carry out such an attack, those locks shouldn't be a problem for you.
23:37 MTDiscord <luatic> NTM that you could've already segfaulted MT trivially.
23:37 panwolfram joined #minetest
23:38 Desour well, ok, considering one can only obtain keys with random secrets from the server, and not arbitrary player-provided secrets, it's quite impossible
23:39 Desour (as long as math.random is not overwritten <https://xkcd.com/221/>)

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