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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-02-01

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03:31 erlehmann how to arbitrarily rotate a texture?
03:31 erlehmann or maybe 45 degree angles
03:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> imagemagick
03:32 erlehmann i meant, in minetest
03:32 erlehmann texture modifiers seem to be stuck in rectangular land
03:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> you rotate it arbitrarily in imagemagick, save it as a new texture file, and then use that one in minetest instead
03:32 erlehmann it's about map markers though
03:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> you can just do all angles up to 90 degrees and then use MT's texture mods for the rest
03:33 erlehmann yeah, uh, i thought of that
03:33 erlehmann and thought, wellllll
03:33 erlehmann 45 degree increments is good enough
03:33 erlehmann bc then i only need 2 textures
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03:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> multiples of 90 degrees is the limit of what MT is going to do for you
03:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> arguably I'm not sure I'd want MT to try to do arbitrary rotations because it's surprisingly complex and I've seen too many implementations that don't come out crisp.
03:35 erlehmann minetest and crisp textures, HA-HA
03:35 erlehmann as if, ever
03:35 erlehmann :P
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07:57 Gustavo6046 huh, builtin_item is not in contentdb anymore
07:57 Gustavo6046 did TenPlus1 pull it?
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08:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It got unapproved due to license issues
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08:59 erlehmann GreenXenith what license issues?
09:00 MTDiscord <luatic> probably licensed overly permissive
09:02 MTDiscord <luatic> it's licensed MIT
09:02 erlehmann i don't get it
09:02 MTDiscord <luatic> if it has code from MT's builtin item, it must be (L)GPLv2.1 though
09:02 erlehmann ohhhh
09:02 erlehmann i see
09:02 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> From the cdb page it looks cc0; But yeah, overly permissive.
09:03 Gustavo6046 ah
09:04 Gustavo6046 does TenPlus1 not want to relicense it?
09:04 Gustavo6046 I'm ok with relicensing it
09:04 erlehmann https://github.com/minetest/contentdb/issues/362
09:04 Gustavo6046 I did contribute some code to it
09:04 erlehmann Gustavo6046 well what is it based on?
09:04 Gustavo6046 hm?
09:04 Gustavo6046 based on?
09:04 erlehmann is builtin_item based on minetest code?
09:05 Gustavo6046 I'm not aware if it is
09:05 Gustavo6046 maybe
09:05 Gustavo6046 compare older revisions of the code with minetest's builtin_item code
09:05 Gustavo6046 I did do major refactors
09:05 erlehmann where is the git repo
09:05 Gustavo6046 the GPL faulters in trying to determine what *all* derivates of source code would count
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09:05 Gustavo6046 erlehmann, it's in notabug
09:05 Gustavo6046 tenplus1/builtin_item
09:06 MTDiscord <luatic> Gustavo6046: Your refactors were all committed by TP1, ugh
09:06 MTDiscord <luatic> https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/builtin_item/commits/master?page=1&amp;pageSize=100
09:07 Gustavo6046 yes
09:07 Gustavo6046 they are in pull requests
09:07 Gustavo6046 I think he credited me though
09:07 MTDiscord <luatic> proper thing to do is just merge the PR though
09:08 MTDiscord <luatic> here it is: "Items are pushed along by flowing water (thanks to QwertyMine3 and Gustavo6046)", and in the commit message
09:09 MTDiscord <luatic> TenPlus1: Please use Git properly, commits have an author field for a reason
09:39 Gustavo6046 ah
09:39 Gustavo6046 commits have an author field?
09:39 Gustavo6046 I had made many commits actually
09:39 Gustavo6046 and a pull request
09:39 Gustavo6046 maybe he preferred to do a git squash?
09:42 Gustavo6046 I don't know how that would preserve author information though
09:44 erlehmann anyone who edits git history and does not preserve authorship information needs to go back to git rebase bootcamp
09:45 erlehmann you can see what happens if author information is lost, if you go really far back in minetest!
09:45 erlehmann oh wait, it's accurate
09:45 erlehmann haha
09:46 erlehmann i had remembered that i had botched the hg import at some point
09:47 erlehmann maybe i misremembered … or it got fixed?
09:52 erlehmann oh, at some point commit messages occur twice lol
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10:11 MinetestBot [git] baytuch -> minetest/minetest_game: Minor translation refinement for UK and RU langs (Drinking Glass) (#2… e02e55f https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/e02e55fafdb4681864fca1c6479415bfe8512fc9 (2022-02-01T10:09:21Z)
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11:33 rubenwardy Preserving authors is basic git ettiquite
11:35 rubenwardy Unfortunately, I have to pull any package with license issues otherwise it can cause me issues
11:39 Gustavo6046 rubenwardy, yes, fair enough
11:39 Gustavo6046 I hope you can figure it out with TenPlus1 :)
11:39 Gustavo6046 I really like builtin_item, and I helped make it better, and I intend to continue helping it get better
11:39 Gustavo6046 It still has a few quirks, but I plan to fix those sometime in the future.
11:39 Gustavo6046 Items seem to float sometimes, which might just be networking lag or something but still
11:40 Gustavo6046 Hmm
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11:42 celeron55 erlehmann: looking at the hg->git migrated stuff and the early git work in the MT repository is quite an experience
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11:47 Gustavo6046 Anyway, I've been trying nodecore, it's quite interesting so far :)
11:48 Gustavo6046 It reminds me a little of TerraFirmaCraft
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13:23 mrkubax10 I have created Polish translation for MTG, how can I send it? Should I create pull request to minetest_game repo?
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13:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Isn't MTG on weblate?
13:25 mrkubax10 ah ok
13:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/minetest/
13:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I see a "mod: game internationalization" and it looks like that might actually mean "game: MTG" but I can't say 100% how it's actually used.
13:28 MTDiscord <Jonathon> mtg doesnt use weblate
13:28 MTDiscord <Jonathon> just make  a PR
13:28 mrkubax10 ok
13:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> What is "mod: game internationalization" for then?
13:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Is there actually a mod for that?
13:31 MTDiscord <Jonathon> no idea
13:31 MTDiscord <Jonathon> all i know is that translations for mtg have always been pr'd as well as people directed there
13:32 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i dont think ive done anything with translation that didnt already have support
13:32 MTDiscord <Jonathon> sorry wuzzy
13:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> oh wow, there's actually an external mod to add translations to MTG ... but then MTG started including translations upstream ... and yet they still offer the mod because MTG translations "can be buggy"
13:33 MTDiscord <Jonathon> welcome to minetest ™️
13:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If MTG has a maintainer now they should probably try to get its translations into weblate properly...
13:35 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems like a feature
13:35 rubenwardy "mod: game internationalizatio"  was a mod to translate MTG
13:36 rubenwardy what bugs are they talking about? I don't know of any
13:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Seems like those efforts really should have been merged.
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14:01 MTDiscord <MNH48> mod: game internationalization is basically translation mod for MTG using intllib back before MTG officially supported translation natively
14:02 MTDiscord <MNH48> iirc didn't people asked to just bring the translations over from that mod into the game?
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14:07 erlehmann after many years, i made my first forum post! https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&amp;t=27760
14:07 erlehmann :D
14:09 rubenwardy screenshake?  Rumble is something a gamepad does
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14:11 erlehmann rubenwardy, i added the words “XBox compatible Gamepads” to make it clear
14:11 erlehmann i believe the correct name for such a middleware is game haptics router?! but no one uses that phrase
14:11 erlehmann like where your game connects and says: vibrate strenth 5 for 200 ms thank you
14:12 erlehmann and the middleware is doing all the talking to the hardware
14:12 erlehmann like bluetooth or usb or what do i know
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14:13 erlehmann rubenwardy, i edited my post again, is it more clear now?
14:13 rubenwardy yeah
14:14 erlehmann sorry i did not even think of screenshake haha
14:14 erlehmann that would be interesting as well though
14:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hilariously, you could try player:set_look_dir(player:get_look_dir())
14:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> MT probably doesn't check to see if those values are already the same, and will probably blindly send a "set look dir" packet to the client.
14:35 MTDiscord <luatic> It will
14:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The client will receive this, and set the lookdir to what it was about one round trip ago.
14:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> This should have the effect of creating a (probably small) "jerk" in camera angle
14:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The effect wouldn't be well-calibrated, or even what you really envision, but the implementation would certainly get a lot of points for sheer irony.
14:37 rubenwardy hax
14:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> extra points for documenting that code with a comment that will only make you confused when you stumble across it 6 months from now while trying to fix an obliquely related bug.
14:44 erlehmann Warr1024 could you please make the counter-book to the rubenwardy book?
14:44 erlehmann i mean you are already nominated for the worst abuse of engine award 2022
14:44 erlehmann hilarious :3
14:45 rubenwardy I think that invector's abuse was so bad that it wins both 2021 and 2022 automatically
14:46 erlehmann guess i have to read the code then
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14:46 erlehmann cora today found out how performant ABMs can be
14:47 erlehmann by debugging one that run like 20 times as often as a global step or so
14:47 erlehmann j45 your bubble columns are cursed and you should feel bad for MineClone5 which is suffering from your ABM shenanigans
14:47 erlehmann i did not understand when you were saying “never do i want to touch this code again”
14:47 erlehmann but i now do :D
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16:21 MTDiscord <j45> the old implementation was more efficient but didnt work quite as well
16:22 MTDiscord <j45> and it isnt like mcl5 is super fast without my bubble columns
16:22 erlehmann yeah so
16:22 erlehmann mcl5 is a lagfest but cora is cleaning it up afaik
16:22 MTDiscord <j45> cora is trying the old implementation
16:22 MTDiscord <j45> (differently to how i did it)
16:23 MTDiscord <j45> hurray for cora lol
16:23 erlehmann cora is pretty good at fixing lag
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16:24 debiankaios anybody here?
16:24 MTDiscord <j45> yes
16:25 debiankaios who can help me with wiki
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17:08 MTDiscord <luatic> @j45 well how did you implement it? I don't see why this would have to be laggy
17:09 MTDiscord <j45> i implemented it badly to be frank
17:09 MTDiscord <j45> #minetest-docs-irc btw
17:10 erlehmann nodenames = {"group:water"},
17:10 erlehmann interval = 0.05,
17:10 erlehmann chance = 1,  nodenames = {"group:water"},
17:10 erlehmann sorry copypaste fail
17:11 MTDiscord <luatic> pretty sure interval < 1s is pointless
17:11 MTDiscord <Warr1024> interval = 0.05 shouldn't actually mean interval = 0.05 unless the server is configured to run the global ABM timer at 0.05, which seems pretty footgunny
17:11 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean clearly the intent of that registration is itself problematic too
17:12 MTDiscord <Warr1024> frankly interval=1, chance=1, nodenames = {"group:water"} is plenty bad enough.
17:12 erlehmann look this is all wrong
17:12 erlehmann making it on water
17:12 erlehmann seriously
17:12 MTDiscord <j45> amen
17:12 erlehmann nuke it from orbit
17:12 erlehmann it's the only way to be sure
17:13 MTDiscord <j45> but you cant only do things with a specific meta value for smt in abms afaik
17:13 erlehmann neighbours though
17:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean I'll do nodenames = {"group:water"} but only with neigbors_invert=true but oh wait MT doesn't actually have that feature 😏
17:13 erlehmann what would that do anyway
17:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> neighbors_invert swaps nodenames and neighbors in the registration, then swaps it back within the action.  Makes it possible to scan for a common node with rare neighbors but pay only the same cost as scanning for rare nodes with common neighbors.
17:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Well, that plus a little overhead, but nothing is quite as bad as throwing a neighbor check on top of scanning for a common node.
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18:49 erlehmann brink back oerkki bird https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=1719#p1719
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19:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, do you have good resources for learning about the dependency issues you talked about in CMake? I'm trying to research this and I'm finding almost nothing.
19:27 erlehmann josiah_wi there is surprisingly little literature regarding it. daniel j bernstein has these notes, from which avery pennarun extrapolated redo: https://cr.yp.to/redo.html i later figured out that djb is writing makefiles in a way that you would only do if you actually had a working implementation of a build system that would avoid specific bugs.
19:28 erlehmann i also talked to him, but he is a bit of a weirdo and never released anything. i later learned that ppl had to pester him for years about which license his software is published under and he was like go away it's public domain, but at that point others had written replacements. haha.
19:28 erlehmann i mean he never released his build system thing, djb released a lot of other stuff.
19:29 erlehmann josiah_wi there is a microsoft paper “build systems a la carte”, which explores the space of build systems, but it is a bit abstract.
19:31 erlehmann josiah_wi there is also alan grosskurths thesis “purely top-down software rebuilding” https://grosskurth.ca/papers/mmath-thesis.pdf
19:31 erlehmann josiah_wi reading the first ~20 pages of the thesis should give you an overview i guess
19:32 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Thanks.
19:34 erlehmann josiah_wi there seem to be several big issues at hand: first, most of the (very little) discussion of this stuff is in the community around avery pennarun python-based build system. if you compare grosskurths notes about recursion with pennaruns implementation you realize that pennarun has avoided some hard problems by assuming that a target can only be built once during a “run”, which enables him to topologically s
19:34 erlehmann ort targets, then work on them in parallel.
19:34 erlehmann by this mean is that “a target will only be built once during a built” is – perhaps surprisingly – a constraint that real-world software projects do not have.
19:35 erlehmann and if you introduce it to handle parallel builds, they will be “better fast than correct”
19:36 erlehmann the other issue is that systems that are unable to output dependencies and non-existence dependencies as side effects (like make or cmake) can not ever handle this case. every few years someone tries and figures it out, but i have rarely seen people blog about it. they rather abandon the tool.
19:37 erlehmann it's a bit like when someone coming from xmpp tries to write a matrix bridge. those projects never go very far, because either the ppl adopt matrix or they realize that matrix is not only *really* complex (and necessarily slow), but also changes all the time.
19:38 erlehmann so the big issue here is that build systems that take a dependency tree, topologically sort inputs and then execute jobs can usually not be fixed to produce correct builds *unless* there are absolutely no non-existence dependencies and every target is built at most once per invocation.
19:38 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I would like to see a minimal example of a CMake build with a fatal non-existence dependency. I understand what it is now, but I'm completely confused as to how it actually shows up.
19:38 erlehmann (the latter constraint does not apply if you just do not build in parallel)
19:39 erlehmann btw, embedded developers usually side-step this entire issue. they rarely have fallback-paths!
19:39 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I can't find anything at all that so much as mentions this issue with CMake, anywhere on the internet. That's impressive, even.
19:39 erlehmann yeah, it's funny. people do not notice them.
19:39 erlehmann very very broadly, every time someone has to type “make clean” or so to rebuild, the build system messed up.
19:40 erlehmann there is a patch for cmake out there that *tries* to handle ne deps, but the author gave up.
19:40 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> That much makes sense.
19:40 erlehmann surprisingly, that patch is larger than my entire build system.
19:40 erlehmann so regarding embedded devs, i once told mitch altman (the tv-b-gone guy) about this problem and he was like “yes i rebuild everything everywhere, it's not the 80ies anymore”
19:41 erlehmann regarding c code on microcontrollers obv
19:41 erlehmann josiah_wi if you see a project or an organization insisting on rebuilding everything for reproducible builds, they have institutional experience with these kind of build system failures.
19:42 erlehmann ninja btw looks like it can handle some cases of dependencies, but i think it actually special cased c header files or something else that was really weird.
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19:42 erlehmann josiah_wi i may have a minimal example for you, but i can only describe it
19:42 erlehmann not setup the cmake thing
19:43 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If you do so I can implement it right now.
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19:45 erlehmann josiah_wi so you make a c program that depends on some system header and include it with #include foo.h .then you build it. then you decide you want to deliver your own version of that header and put it in the local directory. then you rebuild it. unless you redo from scratch, make should not pick up on this, because this is an ne dep.
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19:45 erlehmann funnily enough i have actually heard an (unverified) story from someone
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19:45 erlehmann who said they had a gpl system library
19:45 erlehmann but wanted to use the bsd version in the release
19:46 erlehmann to avoid their software to be gpl-ized lol
19:46 erlehmann hehe
19:46 erlehmann josiah_wi does my description suffice?
19:47 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yep.
19:49 erlehmann josiah_wi i also have a less absurd example from the real world. assume you have a build system setup to generate an index page for irc logs or something – files named after a predictable scheme like YYYY-MM-DD.txt. ideally this system would only rebuild index.html when a new page (for the next day) shows up. so you always have a non-existence dependency on the file for the next day.
19:50 erlehmann so with build systems that can not actually represent this relationship (which is most of them), the file gets rebuilt on every invocation.
19:50 erlehmann because what else are you gonna do?
19:50 erlehmann (and yes, there are always horrible hacks that work like 90% or so)
19:51 erlehmann josiah_wi another example is if you have generic build rules for targets that can be superseded by more specific build rules. very often, build systems do not make targets depend on their build rules.
19:51 erlehmann so you get one of two situations: either, every target depends on, say, a makefile. when one rule is changed, everything is rebuild.
19:52 erlehmann or, you have a target built by a generic rule, then you add a more specific rule and the target does not get to be rebuilt.
19:52 erlehmann like imagine you have one rule for all html files and one specific how to build foo.html
19:52 erlehmann josiah_wi was that clear too? i am very sleepy :(
19:53 erlehmann i believe the build rule example is actually a case that you should be able to reproduce in cmake.
19:53 erlehmann if i understand cmake correctly
19:53 erlehmann ohhh
19:54 erlehmann josiah_wi there exists one widespread system that actually can depend on things that are not existing at the point where dependencies are specified: udev
19:54 erlehmann udev rules can be interpreted as a very weird broad class of non-existence dependencies
19:55 erlehmann i mean specification for them
19:55 erlehmann i need sleep
19:56 erlehmann josiah_wi this is probably the microsoft paper https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/2018/03/build-systems.pdf
19:56 erlehmann > Excel is a build system in disguise.
19:56 erlehmann good start, if you ask me
19:57 erlehmann can't get worse, so it only gets better
19:58 erlehmann > To support dynamic dependencies, Excel’s calc engine [Microsoft 2011] is significantly different
19:58 erlehmann > from Make. Excel arranges the cells into a linear sequence, called the calc chain. During the build,
19:58 erlehmann > Excel processes cells in the calc-chain sequence, but if computing a cell C requires the value of a
19:58 erlehmann cell D that has not yet been computed, Excel aborts computation of C, moves D before C in the
19:58 erlehmann > calc chain, and resumes the build starting with D.
20:00 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I reproduced your first example, and I see no way to fix it. xD
20:00 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Thank you.
20:03 erlehmann josiah_wi oh also very funny: most ppl, if confronted with the existence of non-existence dependencies go through stages of grief or so. like it's almost exactly the same train of thought.
20:04 erlehmann it starts with “this example is an obscure corner case” and ends with “wait, there are a lot of ways you can have an ne dep and my build is probably incorrect, wtf”
20:05 erlehmann josiah_wi if you read the thesis, this is interesting out of historical interest https://web.archive.org/web/20160818124645/http://jdebp.eu./FGA/introduction-to-redo.html
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