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sr20det |
hi. 'minetest --verbose' outputs 'Aborted' and exits |
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| 09:41 |
fkbm |
Well, managed to bring Minetest to 9 fps... I guess using meshes is indeed more expensive; now that I think about it instead of 6 faces I'd have 22 |
| 09:42 |
fkbm |
per node |
| 09:42 |
erlehmann |
how fkbm |
| 09:42 |
erlehmann |
fkbm, is it legos |
| 09:42 |
erlehmann |
are you making lego minetest |
| 09:44 |
fkbm |
I tried; well square-gos (top part would be a square, not a cylinder); I'd manage to bring it to 1 fps then :D |
| 09:45 |
fkbm |
I do get where the speed penalty comes from, though... even if I'd make it efficient, there's no way I can make eliminating faces viable... You know, like not drawing faces that are between two solid blocks. |
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| 11:39 |
sr20det |
hi. http://0x0.st/-xVZ.txt can you help me? |
| 11:45 |
sfan5 |
doesn't it print the exception it receives? |
| 11:54 |
sr20det |
the only output is 'Aborted' |
| 11:57 |
sfan5 |
well something is wrong with exceptions either way, check your compiler flags |
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wsor4035 |
sfan5: would https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11544#issuecomment-917792590 be enough to remove unconfirmed bug? |
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| 14:06 |
erlehmann |
Desour i think your caching thing is among the worst things i have encountered in terms of complexity thrown at a simple problem, but please do not take it as an insult. I do not think you are incompetent, just that all you have is a hammer and then all problems look like nails. |
| 14:07 |
Desour |
what are you referring to, erlehmann ? |
| 14:07 |
erlehmann |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11567 |
| 14:07 |
Desour |
!title |
| 14:07 |
MinetestBot |
No title found. |
| 14:07 |
Desour |
~title |
| 14:07 |
ShadowBot |
Use an sqlite database for the media cache by Desour · Pull Request #11567 · minetest/minetest · GitHub |
| 14:07 |
Desour |
ah |
| 14:07 |
erlehmann |
Desour, I just realized that I should clarify that I do not mean it as an insult. |
| 14:08 |
erlehmann |
i just realized that it is worse than i thought looking at it |
| 14:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> wouldn't the sqlite cache database make it take up less space? |
| 14:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Ideally it might, but unfortunately I don't think sqlite works that way |
| 14:08 |
erlehmann |
slightly, yes, but read my comment here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11567#issuecomment-918226499 |
| 14:08 |
erlehmann |
it could be |
| 14:08 |
erlehmann |
but i doubt it |
| 14:09 |
Desour |
the complexity of the PR somewhat grew over time. it used to be more simple |
| 14:09 |
erlehmann |
i mean, originally i thought it was a bad idea with a capital B |
| 14:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Filesystems tend to "waste" slack space as a speed trade-off, but sqlite does this as well, but filesystems tend to be better at responding to space pressure and rebalancing the trade-off, while I don't think sqlite does. |
| 14:10 |
erlehmann |
yeah sqlite stalls for 10s in Desour tests |
| 14:10 |
erlehmann |
right? |
| 14:10 |
erlehmann |
the thing is: leaving the cache folder just there without importing stuff means: 1. afterwards more stuff will be downloaded 2. afterwards more disk space will be used. 3. afterwards there is more code to maintain. 4. i can no longer use the neat shell tricks i have used in debugging the cache or other stuff easily. |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The PR may have been a useful learning exercise but probably turned into one of those rabbit holes that you end up at the bottom of and find that after all that meandering it didn't get you nearly where you had hoped... :-) |
| 14:11 |
erlehmann |
yeah lol |
| 14:11 |
Desour |
yes, it did stall 10s in a test, because I made it stall 10s via a sleep for testing |
| 14:11 |
erlehmann |
having an “improve the cache” PR that makes the client use more disk space and causes more traffic is not really close to the end goal |
| 14:11 |
erlehmann |
oh ok? |
| 14:11 |
erlehmann |
but the “breaking local multiplayer” thing is what made me write here |
| 14:12 |
erlehmann |
that's the worst |
| 14:12 |
Desour |
it doesn't break local multiplayer at all |
| 14:12 |
erlehmann |
i use local multiplayer all the time, e.g. to test if protection applies to a node |
| 14:12 |
erlehmann |
Q: What happens if two or more minetest instances load media at the same time? |
| 14:12 |
erlehmann |
A: In the worst case, the one that comes later silently goes back to main menu (I hope at least, that there's no worse case). There are some warnings and error messages in the terminal and debug.txt about the database being locked. |
| 14:12 |
Desour |
the db is just locked at media loading |
| 14:13 |
erlehmann |
that's … not cool? |
| 14:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Sometimes the value you get out of something is not what you were aiming for, e.g. when you hope to get an optimization but end up instead producing evidence that the idea is impractical. |
| 14:14 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 i actually had this with my redo build system. the overhead for parallelization coordination is so big that building in parallel is slower if you have many targets that build in less than 1s. |
| 14:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It does seem like there might be corner cases where a database cache actually makes more sense, e.g. on Android though, where performance of storage systems might be very different from first principles due to weirdness of stuff like JNI. |
| 14:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Oh, yeah, parallelization is a great place to run into unexpected trade-off costs :-D |
| 14:17 |
erlehmann |
Desour, are you on windows or os x maybe? |
| 14:17 |
Desour |
`-´ no |
| 14:18 |
Desour |
I'm using linux |
| 14:18 |
erlehmann |
then i am really confused |
| 14:18 |
erlehmann |
are you aware of atime? |
| 14:18 |
erlehmann |
linux fs aren't really slow i mean |
| 14:19 |
Desour |
of course I am aware of atime |
| 14:19 |
Desour |
many (including me) turn it off afaik |
| 14:19 |
erlehmann |
what did you use? |
| 14:19 |
Desour |
"use"? |
| 14:20 |
erlehmann |
which mount option |
| 14:20 |
erlehmann |
are you aware of relatime? |
| 14:20 |
Desour |
rw,noatime |
| 14:20 |
erlehmann |
it is the mount option that people think commonly of “turning off atime updates” |
| 14:21 |
erlehmann |
ah |
| 14:21 |
erlehmann |
that is unfortunate |
| 14:21 |
erlehmann |
how much performance could you get with it? |
| 14:22 |
Desour |
idk, I never did any benchmarks or anything. |
| 14:22 |
erlehmann |
you just turned it off? |
| 14:22 |
erlehmann |
that seems unwise |
| 14:22 |
Desour |
and it's more for increasing my ssd longlivety |
| 14:22 |
erlehmann |
ah! |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I use relatime because I suspect that noatime might break stuff unexpectedly... |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> My SSDs will just have to suck it up I guess. |
| 14:23 |
erlehmann |
noatime does indeed break common applications, such as mutt |
| 14:24 |
Desour |
let's make minetest not one of those broken applications |
| 14:24 |
erlehmann |
relatime vs atime is the big speedup though |
| 14:25 |
erlehmann |
LOL |
| 14:25 |
erlehmann |
minetest would not break with that |
| 14:25 |
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| 14:25 |
Desour |
the cache clearing would not work properly though if you used atime |
| 14:26 |
erlehmann |
what i don't get is why you had to put the files in the db |
| 14:26 |
erlehmann |
why not just update the timestamps? |
| 14:26 |
Desour |
it made some things simpler |
| 14:27 |
erlehmann |
and completely breaks my workflow how i interact with the cache |
| 14:27 |
erlehmann |
and probably many other peoples, because it is a one-liner to cleanup old files from the cache |
| 14:27 |
erlehmann |
right now |
| 14:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> A nice way to handle cache timestamping would be just update mtime (which nobody disables) if the mtime is more than, say, 1 minute old (to reduce SSD thrash). |
| 14:27 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 relatime is already good enough for it |
| 14:28 |
erlehmann |
atime is required by posix, everyone who turns it off basically says “i want some applications, including some backup apps, to no longer work correctly anymore, but have a faster system” |
| 14:29 |
erlehmann |
or are there systems that turn it off by default? |
| 14:30 |
erlehmann |
Desour, i have another performance boost for you: fsync=off for postgresql |
| 14:30 |
erlehmann |
it will make postgresql faster and sometimes eat your data |
| 14:30 |
erlehmann |
while we are at it: #define struct union |
| 14:30 |
erlehmann |
huge RAM saver! |
| 14:32 |
erlehmann |
Desour, i strongly suggest to benchmark both noatime and relatime. you will probably not measure any relevant difference. |
| 14:32 |
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| 14:32 |
Desour |
nah, that'd be definitely too much work for nothing |
| 14:33 |
erlehmann |
then switch to relatime, you'll probably not notice any slowdown and if anything is broken by noatime, you'll probably not waste time debugging it. |
| 14:34 |
Desour |
are you suggesting to not support any system that doesn't strictly support posix? |
| 14:34 |
erlehmann |
no |
| 14:34 |
Desour |
I haven't had any problems due to atime yet |
| 14:34 |
erlehmann |
well, you only notice them when they are too late |
| 14:34 |
Desour |
and this is not about me. there are many people that use noatime :P |
| 14:35 |
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| 14:35 |
erlehmann |
yes but usually they know what they are doing, like setting it on a NAS or tmp partition |
| 14:35 |
erlehmann |
cargo-culting noatime is not good |
| 14:36 |
erlehmann |
if you have slow flash memory you probably won't even get atime |
| 14:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I wouldn't say we "won't support" systems that have some features broken, but we will only provide partial support, i.e. only stuff that depends on the non-broken parts. As far as I understand, MT cache will work fine with noatime, but your "cleanup" strategy in that case is limited to just invalidating and nuking the whole thing and forcing re-downloads. |
| 14:43 |
erlehmann |
Desour Warr1024 i think the original suggestion for noatime comes from ingo molnar, who later said relatime is cool |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
you can see the start of this here http://web.archive.org/web/20110427023154/http://kerneltrap.org/node/14148 |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
relatime was made default in 2009 |
| 14:46 |
erlehmann |
I will post my oneliner in the issue lol |
| 14:46 |
Desour |
I don't really care about the history about atime mount settings right now. :P And I don't plan to change my configuration just because someone from the internet doesn't like it. |
| 14:47 |
erlehmann |
it is not that i don't *like* it, it is that i think you have no idea what you are doing because you did not benchmark it |
| 14:47 |
erlehmann |
Desour, do you know tmpreaper? |
| 14:49 |
Desour |
of course I have no idea what I'm doing. I didn't even consider using freebsd or some other kernel than the default linux yet, and I definitely didn't do benchmarks or read the source code. |
| 14:50 |
Desour |
idk tmpreaper |
| 14:50 |
erlehmann |
it is a program that deletes files that have not been accessed in a number of days |
| 14:51 |
sfan5 |
these days we call that systemd-tmpfiles-clean.service |
| 14:54 |
erlehmann |
“tmpreaper 30d cache” or >1000 lines of C++ code, who would win |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think it's fine if you use a weird configuration, but if you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to work around the limitations imposed by weird configuration, don't be surprised when people don't want to merge those hoop-jumps upstream. |
| 14:55 |
erlehmann |
yeah lol |
| 15:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The ability to accomplish useful things in a very "agree to disagree" kind of environment is sort of one of the superpowers of open-source, so on some level weirdness should be celebrated :-D |
| 15:15 |
sfan5 |
wsor4035: sure but I'd need to test it |
| 15:19 |
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| 15:23 |
wsor4035 |
thanks |
| 15:30 |
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| 19:02 |
Desour |
what Jordach is currently doing: https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/cleaning-sky-11320462.jpg |
| 19:03 |
Krock |
seems to be an impossible task |
| 19:03 |
jonadab |
relatime is very cool |
| 19:04 |
jonadab |
Whereas tmpreaper sounds like something I wouldn't inflict on my worst enemy's nightmares. |
| 19:05 |
sfan5 |
I put files I want to more or less keep for the duration of my system uptime in /tmp so yeah I ended up disabling the systemd service that something equivalent |
| 19:05 |
jonadab |
Tools that automatically delete data need to be *very* specialized and *very* careful about what they delete. e.g., logrotate is ok. |
| 19:14 |
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| 19:30 |
erlehmann |
jonadab what is the problem with tmpreaper? you run it manually |
| 19:31 |
erlehmann |
jonadab basically tmpreaper is the answer to “why has no one made a tool for cleaning up the cache” – bc it is trivial to clean up your cache with a oneliner, probably even on windows |
| 19:31 |
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| 19:33 |
sfan5 |
the whole point is that minetest should do it automatically for users who don't know or care |
| 19:33 |
sfan5 |
"just run this command line tool" is not going to impress any windows user and android users will stare at you confused |
| 19:34 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 i am not saying that minetest should not do it. it is just one of those tasks where if you really think about it the solution is so simple, that you may as well scratch your own itch and forget the rest. |
| 19:37 |
erlehmann |
it is a god explanation, not a good justification |
| 19:37 |
erlehmann |
good |
| 19:38 |
erlehmann |
but it is funny, on windows it is also a oneliner, but people come up with very long batch files :d |
| 19:38 |
erlehmann |
:D |
| 19:39 |
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| 19:44 |
appguru |
Today's texture modifier oddness: "[combine:42x69:" creates a blank 42x69 image. |
| 19:45 |
sfan5 |
makes sense if you think about it |
| 19:45 |
erlehmann |
what is the oddness |
| 19:46 |
appguru |
Well, it's odd that the colon is required for one, and it's kind of odd that you can just omit the images like that; the docs don't mention that. |
| 19:46 |
sfan5 |
what does "blank" mean though? transparent or white? |
| 19:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> transparenty |
| 19:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I use [combine:1x1: a lot myself |
| 19:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> it's blank.png with one less media transfer |
| 19:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> [combine:1x1:^[noalpha is a not COMPLETELY terrible way to make a simple black pixel. |
| 19:50 |
Desour |
but there's blank.png in the base pack |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha, seriously? Ick. |
| 19:55 |
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| 20:33 |
appguru |
Warr1024: I'd kinda prefer blank.png^[colorize:black:255 |
| 20:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> ew ... but to be fair, I don't think there's a completely NON-gross way to do this... |
| 20:51 |
jonadab |
Minetest cleaning up its _own_ data, especially a cache, makes sense. |
| 20:52 |
jonadab |
A general purpose tool that wanders around your filesystem looking for "not recently accessed files", sounds like a way to lose important data. |
| 21:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "Wandering around your filesystem" it really shouldn't be doing. The fact that stuff in /tmp is not guaranteed to survive a reboot (and in fact generally not supposed to) makes that a bit different. |
| 21:01 |
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| 21:16 |
erlehmann |
jonadab minetest should totally clean up its own data. but it does not need >1000 additional lines of code for that. |
| 21:17 |
jonadab |
erlehmann: Oh, true. |
| 21:17 |
jonadab |
Though it's not going to be a one-liner either. |
| 21:17 |
jonadab |
It could be in some languages, but Minetest isn't written in Perl. |
| 21:18 |
Desour |
btw. many of the >1000 lines are not for the media cache, ie. unittests |
| 21:19 |
jonadab |
Shouldn't unit tests only install in the first place, if the user is building from source? |
| 21:19 |
erlehmann |
ok let me quickly hack something together |
| 21:19 |
Desour |
install? |
| 21:19 |
jonadab |
Desour: Be installed. |
| 21:19 |
jonadab |
Whatever. |
| 21:20 |
jonadab |
The pre-compiled binary packages for end users, really don't need the unit tests in them, IMO. |
| 21:20 |
Desour |
I think there's a compiler flag for this |
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| 21:55 |
erlehmann |
Desour this is probably horrible, but … wouldn't it be only a little bit more code to clear the cache from here? https://mister-muffin.de/p/6ZPz.c |
| 21:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I smell the beginnings of a draft PR... |
| 21:59 |
Desour |
lol, "or" |
| 22:00 |
Desour |
well, it's missing most of the things, like synchronisation or integrating it in minetest |
| 22:00 |
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| 22:02 |
erlehmann |
Desour synchronization with what? |
| 22:03 |
Desour |
between multiple minetest instances |
| 22:04 |
Desour |
it basically lacks everything apart from iterating through the dir and getting atimes :P |
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| 23:59 |
erlehmann |
why would a cache cleaner need syncing between multiple minetest instances? o. |
| 23:59 |
erlehmann |
o.0 |
