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| 05:34 |
MTDiscord |
<fatalerror420> False |
| 05:37 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> ^this is in reference to mazes "did I observe this right?". @The lesser shitposter used the Discord reply feature which is not bridged |
| 05:38 |
MTDiscord |
<fatalerror420> Hehe |
| 05:46 |
erlehmann |
is the “let's store all the media cache in a sqlite database” thing dead or do i need to convince anyone that it's not a good idea for the purpose of cache cleanup? |
| 05:46 |
erlehmann |
#11567 |
| 05:46 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11567 -- Use an sqlite database for the media cache by Desour |
| 05:51 |
erlehmann |
people probably thought that relatime = atime is useless |
| 05:51 |
erlehmann |
but that is not true! |
| 05:53 |
erlehmann |
the mainline linux kernel will update atime with relatime with a 24h granularity |
| 05:53 |
erlehmann |
it is hardcoded, you can see here https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/fs/inode.c#n1719 |
| 05:53 |
erlehmann |
“Is the previous atime value older than a day? If yes, update atime” |
| 05:54 |
erlehmann |
and “With relative atime, only update atime if the previous atime is earlier than either the ctime or mtime or if at least a day has passed since the last atime update.” |
| 05:54 |
erlehmann |
this is hardcoded and unlikely to be changed |
| 05:58 |
erlehmann |
#11499 |
| 05:58 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11499 -- [Draft] Night vision by x2048 |
| 05:59 |
erlehmann |
so here hecktest says “I do have plans for dropping support for the fixed pipeline and it's likely to happen, the set of machines that can run Minetest comfortably while not supporting at least OpenGL 2 is basically empty.” https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11499#issuecomment-890270979 |
| 05:59 |
erlehmann |
; glxinfo |grep 'OpenGL version' |
| 05:59 |
erlehmann |
OpenGL version string: 1.4 Mesa 18.3.6 |
| 06:00 |
erlehmann |
does that mean i will not be able to run minetest? |
| 06:00 |
erlehmann |
of am i misunderstanding something here? |
| 06:01 |
erlehmann |
this is on the computer on which i do most of my private development |
| 06:01 |
erlehmann |
which includes minetest |
| 06:02 |
erlehmann |
mods |
| 06:02 |
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| 06:10 |
erlehmann |
i get around 25 fps in mineclonia with minetest 5.4 |
| 06:11 |
erlehmann |
in the title bar it says OpenGL 1.4 |
| 06:11 |
erlehmann |
i am really anxious about someone who probably has a powerful gaming computer to make judgements like that |
| 06:12 |
erlehmann |
people with supercomputers should really ask people who do not have supercomputers if their performance assessments are accurate |
| 06:12 |
erlehmann |
or at least test it! |
| 06:46 |
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| 08:05 |
celeron55 |
erlehmann: exactly what hardware do you have? |
| 08:05 |
celeron55 |
and which OS |
| 08:09 |
celeron55 |
you have to understand even 10 years ago when i started MT it was considered ridiculous to support opengl 1 in a game |
| 08:13 |
celeron55 |
if you want a really quick test to see whether you can run opengl 2 in practice, try running some webgl stuff in a modern web browser, like https://webglsamples.org/multiple-views/multiple-views.html |
| 08:16 |
erlehmann |
celeron55, i have several thinkpads with debian |
| 08:16 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 i am writing you from a thinkpad T60 |
| 08:17 |
erlehmann |
i am trying the thing you showed me in chromium now |
| 08:18 |
erlehmann |
> It does not appear your computer supports WebGL. Click here for more information. |
| 08:18 |
erlehmann |
wow websites now have OpenGL requirement? o.0 |
| 08:18 |
celeron55 |
core duo? it's the same hardware i used 10 years ago |
| 08:18 |
celeron55 |
it will be dropped, i am sad to say |
| 08:18 |
erlehmann |
what no |
| 08:18 |
erlehmann |
why |
| 08:19 |
erlehmann |
i can help maintaining it |
| 08:19 |
erlehmann |
i know a bit of C++ |
| 08:19 |
celeron55 |
well, you'll have to write a fixed pipeline rendering backend when the time comes |
| 08:20 |
erlehmann |
i do not see why not just keep the old code? is it such a burden? |
| 08:20 |
celeron55 |
core duo is literally the only cpu that is barely usable these days but with no support for opengl 2 in the integrated gpu |
| 08:20 |
celeron55 |
or, well, the gpu is in the chipset i think (?) but whatever |
| 08:21 |
erlehmann |
i think it has nothing to do with core duo, more with intel integrated graphics yes |
| 08:21 |
celeron55 |
i have 7 years old intel integrated graphics in this laptop, and i have opengl 3 |
| 08:21 |
erlehmann |
so i do not get it, why would support need to be removed? the code works right now! |
| 08:22 |
erlehmann |
i was using a similar computer, probably even weaker, when i first discovered minetest |
| 08:22 |
erlehmann |
when i develop stuff for mineclonia i do it on this machine |
| 08:22 |
celeron55 |
to get better performance on practically all hardware available today (used and new), the rendering has to operate differently, not just how it calls opengl but it needs to construct its data differently in order to be able to call opengl in a more modern way |
| 08:23 |
celeron55 |
you can use opengl 1.4 then too of course |
| 08:23 |
erlehmann |
but? |
| 08:23 |
celeron55 |
but it won't be any faster on modern hardware then |
| 08:23 |
erlehmann |
i just want to continue to play minetest |
| 08:24 |
celeron55 |
then your goal is to get an opengl 1.4 backend written along with the 2.0 backend that is planned |
| 08:24 |
celeron55 |
there's also a 3.0 or newer backend planned for the actual gaming computers |
| 08:24 |
erlehmann |
from a very uneducated point of view the rendering of minetest sucks big time not because of a lack of shader magick |
| 08:25 |
erlehmann |
but because ppl do stuff like “implement particle support in a way that you can not make worse even if you tried” and something like that |
| 08:25 |
celeron55 |
your gma950 gpu can render stuff just about as fast as the cpu can send stuff to it, no matter how ineffectively it's send |
| 08:25 |
erlehmann |
celeron55, is openGL ES an out for me? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/06/i-have-ported-xscreensaver-to-the-iphone/ |
| 08:25 |
erlehmann |
yes ok? |
| 08:25 |
celeron55 |
go forward a year or two in gpu development and the cpu can't keep up anymore without being very specific in how it sends stuff |
| 08:25 |
celeron55 |
it has to send it in bulk |
| 08:25 |
erlehmann |
is this a lacture about shaders |
| 08:26 |
celeron55 |
webgl uses opengl es 2.0 |
| 08:26 |
celeron55 |
you just attempted to use it on the website |
| 08:26 |
celeron55 |
that i linked |
| 08:26 |
erlehmann |
oh ok |
| 08:26 |
erlehmann |
oh but glxinfo gives me 2 more version strings! |
| 08:26 |
erlehmann |
OpenGL ES profile version string: OpenGL ES 2.0 Mesa 18.3.6 |
| 08:26 |
erlehmann |
OpenGL ES profile shading language version string: OpenGL ES GLSL ES 1.0.16 |
| 08:26 |
erlehmann |
does this mean i can use minetest still |
| 08:27 |
celeron55 |
not sure, we'll have to consult with hecks |
| 08:27 |
erlehmann |
i am really really anxious about this, minetest is about the only game i play a lot :/ |
| 08:28 |
erlehmann |
and i think i am somewhat an exception in that ppl with old or bad computers usually are not developers. but the T60 is the last computer i found with a 4:3 matte screen that i fast for almost everything (once you put an SSD into it lol) |
| 08:28 |
celeron55 |
i understand that, but the thing is you could get more recent hardware for almost no money |
| 08:28 |
celeron55 |
definitely less money than a new battery costs for the t60 |
| 08:28 |
celeron55 |
than what* |
| 08:28 |
erlehmann |
i got an MNT reform 2 recently |
| 08:28 |
erlehmann |
like days ago |
| 08:29 |
erlehmann |
> you could get more recent hardware for almost no money |
| 08:29 |
erlehmann |
that actually was true until about february/march |
| 08:29 |
erlehmann |
then the prices for used thinkpads went through the roof |
| 08:30 |
erlehmann |
i have a bunch of machines for spare parts. guess what, they all have either that same chipset from intel or some jank that runs way too hot. |
| 08:30 |
celeron55 |
the mnt reform will run opengl 2 very nicely |
| 08:31 |
erlehmann |
is the jwz post relevant? |
| 08:31 |
erlehmann |
i mean jwz is a very smart guy |
| 08:32 |
erlehmann |
and implemented OpenGL 1.3 in terms of OpenGL ES 1.1? |
| 08:32 |
celeron55 |
i don't think it has any relevance |
| 08:32 |
erlehmann |
but you need openGL ES for mobile anyway or not? |
| 08:33 |
celeron55 |
MT will be targeting opengl es 2.0 on mobile, not 1.1, because all phones that have the power to run MT have 2.0 |
| 08:33 |
erlehmann |
i thought the whole “the thing worked for 10 years but you need to get a better computer now” thing was purely a fleckenstein/mineclone2 thing |
| 08:33 |
erlehmann |
guess i thought wrong |
| 08:34 |
celeron55 |
anwyay make sure to talk with hecks and tell him to at least make sure it's possible to write an opengl 1.4 backend, or i guess we could call it a gma950 backend |
| 08:35 |
erlehmann |
what exactly is hecktest doing btw? |
| 08:35 |
erlehmann |
can i see some roadmap? |
| 08:35 |
erlehmann |
let's say i'm *probably* not the only person affected |
| 08:35 |
erlehmann |
i encounter it often that ppl who play games on not-too-recent computers just aren't devs |
| 08:35 |
erlehmann |
devs have the newest and greatest |
| 08:36 |
erlehmann |
there is, for example, this thing with minetest games and minetest 5.3 compat – all because minetest 5.4 is harder to get to run on raspberry pies. |
| 08:36 |
celeron55 |
well, i stopped trying to run games on my core duo laptop in the year 2014, and thinking about the transition away from those as a normal distribution, we're going quite far to the "almost nobody" territory today |
| 08:37 |
erlehmann |
oh yeah, ppl often say that. in the meantime, emacs has not broken for me once. or dosbox. or openttd. |
| 08:37 |
erlehmann |
or battle for wesnoth, for that matter. |
| 08:37 |
erlehmann |
(the rpi story is not my personal experience) |
| 08:38 |
celeron55 |
those are 2d programs, 2d rendering hasn't changed much... or well, if you take modern 2d games (commercial ones you can buy on steam or such), the fact is almost all of them require opengl 2 or 3 |
| 08:38 |
erlehmann |
ok well but openarena is basically quake3 and it runs? |
| 08:39 |
celeron55 |
it makes the logistics of rendering so much nicer when you can move data around without transformations or effects on the cpu and do the final transformations and effects on the gpu |
| 08:39 |
erlehmann |
oh yeah, ofc that's what its all about, i get that |
| 08:39 |
celeron55 |
quake was literally made for opengl 1 |
| 08:39 |
erlehmann |
it is about making it easier for developers, not users |
| 08:40 |
celeron55 |
(if you take the new improved re-release of quake that was made very recently, it won't run on opengl 1) |
| 08:40 |
erlehmann |
let's say i often take care to make my software run in a way that it runs on the machines of ppl who complain, not on what optimizes for theoretical purity |
| 08:41 |
celeron55 |
many, many users of modern hardware complain that MT isn't optimized for them |
| 08:41 |
erlehmann |
oh yeah, but they probably have no idea why it sucks |
| 08:41 |
erlehmann |
like the particle lagfest |
| 08:41 |
celeron55 |
i'm thinking this mostly in terms of world rendering range |
| 08:42 |
erlehmann |
waspsaliva, the probably most advanced cheat cient (seriously, try it) has a noparticles setting ^^ |
| 08:42 |
erlehmann |
ah ok |
| 08:42 |
erlehmann |
well everything lags if i put rendering range to infinite. on my thinkpad T60 i get like 13 fps or so. |
| 08:42 |
erlehmann |
probably less if i load a lot of the world |
| 08:43 |
celeron55 |
yeah, it just can't fill the polygons faster than that no matter what |
| 08:43 |
erlehmann |
nah, it also lags the same way on faster machines lol |
| 08:43 |
erlehmann |
> The code is in hacks/glx/jwzgles.c. If you want to use it to port your own legacy code, just include jwzgles.h. Let me know if it works! |
| 08:43 |
erlehmann |
lol |
| 08:43 |
celeron55 |
that's because MT sends the stuff to the gpu so inoptimally |
| 08:43 |
erlehmann |
i have to look at that |
| 08:44 |
erlehmann |
but why have not different rendering backends? |
| 08:44 |
celeron55 |
somebody has to write and maintain them, and you can create a lot of extra work when some backend starts requiring preprocessing of data that others don't need |
| 08:45 |
erlehmann |
btw, core duo … i think on a single core machine it ran about the same. is minetest using more than one core? |
| 08:46 |
celeron55 |
in a singleplayer game it can use 3 cores to some extent, one for the client, one for the server and one for the mapgen |
| 08:47 |
celeron55 |
actually 4, also one for voxel mesh generation on the client |
| 08:48 |
erlehmann |
btw, i read that you like voxelareas, so maybe you like that cora and me ported it to work with mcl2-derived games https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/mcl_meshnode |
| 08:48 |
celeron55 |
it's enough that you should see a difference if you test disabling and enabling a second core |
| 08:48 |
erlehmann |
hmm ok |
| 08:49 |
erlehmann |
i did not know minetest was cpu bound |
| 08:49 |
erlehmann |
can i reach hecktest on irc or via email? |
| 08:49 |
celeron55 |
but it won't be a huge difference, mostly a second core gets rid of some lag spikes probably |
| 08:49 |
celeron55 |
you'll probably have to wait for him to pop up on #-dev |
| 08:49 |
erlehmann |
not in mineclone5 lol |
| 08:49 |
erlehmann |
it's full of lag spikes ^^ |
| 08:49 |
erlehmann |
oh i should get there again |
| 08:50 |
erlehmann |
it has been a loooooooong time |
| 08:51 |
celeron55 |
you can also write an issue on github asking about opengl 1.4 support. it would be most important to list computers in use today that don't support 2.0 |
| 08:51 |
celeron55 |
the decisions will be made based on whether there is a considerable amount of users needing opengl 1.4 or not |
| 08:52 |
erlehmann |
well i must say the minetest community is pretty good at keeping out specific voices |
| 08:52 |
erlehmann |
cora was not able to register at the forums either with or without tor |
| 08:52 |
erlehmann |
bc sussy ip |
| 08:53 |
celeron55 |
you can always contact a forum moderator on IRC to register on the forum if you look too much like a spammer to the forum |
| 08:53 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 i hope you do realize that the set of users who go to github and the set of users who play on old computers are not exactly overlapping? |
| 08:53 |
erlehmann |
also can you pls answer the question in the query |
| 08:53 |
celeron55 |
yes, but our methods are a bit limited |
| 08:54 |
celeron55 |
modern software would performan an automatic statistics collection for this purpose on all user's computers with would allow making a very quick and precise decision |
| 08:54 |
celeron55 |
-an |
| 08:54 |
celeron55 |
which* |
| 08:54 |
erlehmann |
> automatic statistics collection |
| 08:55 |
erlehmann |
lol |
| 08:55 |
erlehmann |
automatic statistics collection can be found from debian popcon maybe? |
| 08:55 |
celeron55 |
the most we can do is make a poll on the forum, pretty much |
| 08:55 |
erlehmann |
does it record the machines specifics? |
| 08:55 |
celeron55 |
i think it only records a list of packages |
| 08:56 |
erlehmann |
it is funny, debian shows kinda how unreliable such stats are for the lower end https://popcon.debian.org/ |
| 08:56 |
erlehmann |
like there is 1 arm response or 8 sparc |
| 08:57 |
erlehmann |
basically its stats are only useful for x64 and x86 |
| 08:58 |
celeron55 |
maybe we should include a questionnaire on a release simply asking "the minetest developers would like to know which opengl version your graphics card supports in order to make development decisions, send it? yes/no" |
| 08:59 |
celeron55 |
then it would send a http post to an endpoint on my server that appends a line in a file |
| 09:00 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 09:00 |
erlehmann |
but the thing is |
| 09:01 |
erlehmann |
if you make it imposible or hard to use minetest on an older thinkpad, i bet i am not the only one who will stop playing or developing mods. usually ppl just are disappointed and go away. |
| 09:01 |
erlehmann |
i have seen this a bunch of times in the lats 15 years |
| 09:01 |
erlehmann |
last |
| 09:01 |
erlehmann |
often when i complain about such stuff and *know* other users have the same problem |
| 09:01 |
erlehmann |
devs say “you are the only person who ever complained, so it will be alright” |
| 09:02 |
erlehmann |
because the vast majority of users never even interact with the devs |
| 09:02 |
celeron55 |
i always say people should complain more |
| 09:02 |
celeron55 |
people think authors don't care, but the problem more often is information flow |
| 09:03 |
celeron55 |
being silent when problems occur is a silly culture |
| 09:03 |
erlehmann |
na, it is not that they even get the idea |
| 09:08 |
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olliy joined #minetest |
| 09:14 |
celeron55 |
erlehmann: btw, which browser did you try for the webgl test website? and does it have a setting for enabling/disabling webgl? |
| 09:14 |
celeron55 |
possibly, does it have a setting to force-enable webgl? |
| 09:14 |
celeron55 |
i think some browsers disable webgl on some gpus "just to be sure" |
| 09:15 |
celeron55 |
also, does anyone know of a easy to install opengl 2.0 test program |
| 09:15 |
celeron55 |
an* |
| 09:16 |
celeron55 |
i think hecks has mentioned in the past which specific opengl extensions included in 2.0 are the important ones, you could check for the existence of those in glxinfo |
| 09:16 |
celeron55 |
but, we need the list of those first |
| 09:19 |
celeron55 |
ARB_shader_objects at least |
| 09:19 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 i used chromium |
| 09:19 |
celeron55 |
but that just means shaders, if you can enable shaders in current MT that means ARB_shader_objects is supported, and gma950 definitely supports that on linux |
| 09:19 |
erlehmann |
; glxinfo |grep ARB_shader |
| 09:19 |
erlehmann |
GL_ARB_separate_shader_objects, GL_ARB_shader_objects, |
| 09:20 |
erlehmann |
well shaders are dog slow |
| 09:20 |
erlehmann |
also i don't really see why any browser should allow random websites to compile code on my graphics card, isn't that like, a security issue? |
| 09:21 |
celeron55 |
that's what webgl does |
| 09:21 |
celeron55 |
well, it can be a bit of a problem on old drivers where the author didn't expect to be fed code from the internet |
| 09:23 |
celeron55 |
on that particular site the shader source is in plain sight on the main document itself so you can just view source |
| 09:27 |
sfan5 |
"all because minetest 5.4 is harder to get to run on raspberry pies." <- what is this about? |
| 09:27 |
celeron55 |
erlehmann: for shits and giggles, you can try enabling webgl.force-enabled in chromium's settings |
| 09:30 |
erlehmann |
sfan i *suspect* it is probably just that minetest 5.3 is in debian so it is easier to get on raspis with raspian. it came up once in mineclone2 development when ppl wanted to break compat with mineclone 5.3. |
| 09:31 |
erlehmann |
i mean minetest 5.3 |
| 09:31 |
erlehmann |
damn mineclone5 is living rent-free in my head |
| 09:32 |
sfan5 |
I see, makes sense |
| 09:32 |
erlehmann |
what i am saying is that almost none of the raspi users was aware of the development discussion |
| 09:32 |
erlehmann |
that is the parallel here |
| 09:32 |
erlehmann |
i think minecraft does not run on such old computers as i have |
| 09:32 |
celeron55 |
the curse of debian |
| 09:32 |
erlehmann |
minetest does |
| 09:32 |
sfan5 |
I did in fact build this thing -> https://kitsunemimi.pw/tmp/minetest-5.4.0-rpi%2B.tar.gz <- once but probably nobody knows |
| 09:33 |
erlehmann |
oh, debian is amazingly fast updating if you work together with the maintainers |
| 09:33 |
celeron55 |
erlehmann: minecraft did run on core duo integrated graphics, and linux no less, 11 years ago |
| 09:33 |
erlehmann |
i have drawn about 500 or so emojis for GNU unifont and it was in debian way before it was in arch or something like that |
| 09:33 |
celeron55 |
in less than a year they then made it unplayable |
| 09:33 |
erlehmann |
yeah, but minetest *still* runs there |
| 09:33 |
sfan5 |
I have also considered that we should provide official RPi builds or something similar but didn't get to that yet |
| 09:34 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 it would probably make it easier |
| 09:34 |
sfan5 |
(would be a .deb and hopefully linked on the download page) |
| 09:34 |
celeron55 |
official raspi builds would be great marketing, if nothing else |
| 09:34 |
erlehmann |
i mean, i keep saying that minetest 5.3 is a bigger security risk than minetest 5.4 (due to the CSSSM), it is not a joke |
| 09:35 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 nah, if the packaging is *good enough*, debian may take it |
| 09:35 |
celeron55 |
i'd rather have distros repackage everything to their taste than take our builds |
| 09:35 |
erlehmann |
yeah working with distros is better |
| 09:35 |
celeron55 |
that's the only thing where they have some pride and taste |
| 09:35 |
erlehmann |
usually there is a reason when a program has a deb on their webpage |
| 09:35 |
celeron55 |
making packages, that is |
| 09:35 |
erlehmann |
but it is not in the distro |
| 09:36 |
erlehmann |
usually QA issues |
| 09:36 |
erlehmann |
nah, debian also does the whole porting and security stuff |
| 09:36 |
erlehmann |
like they will fix bugs if upstream is shitty |
| 09:38 |
erlehmann |
and if one package has a bug, debian can tell you which others do |
| 09:40 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 i hope if minetest rendering gets refactored that it will be flexible enough to have a rougelike-style rendering too ^^ |
| 09:40 |
erlehmann |
then i do no longer need to worry about opengl or 3d |
| 09:40 |
erlehmann |
roguelike |
| 09:40 |
erlehmann |
i mean |
| 09:44 |
celeron55 |
well, i mean, just do that if you'd like, but it won't really relate to what's happening now, it would be a different abstraction layer, probably practically requiring forking or rewriting the client and changing almost everything |
| 09:45 |
celeron55 |
everything down to pointing at nodes would be different |
| 09:45 |
celeron55 |
not just rendering |
| 09:46 |
erlehmann |
well, i guess waspsaliva could already do it |
| 09:46 |
erlehmann |
i mean cora has a macro to build heart shaped nether portals |
| 09:46 |
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| 09:46 |
erlehmann |
not that i really want it |
| 09:54 |
celeron55 |
an SDL based minetest client that could run on a 386 would be interesting |
| 09:56 |
celeron55 |
not really useful, but interesting |
| 09:57 |
celeron55 |
your biggest problem would be memory usage, 3d voxel data is incredibly memory heavy in 1980s standards |
| 09:59 |
celeron55 |
fps would probably be non-existent if you didn't pour months or years of development time into optimization |
| 10:11 |
erlehmann |
well |
| 10:11 |
erlehmann |
i wonder if brutal minecraft can run on older computers |
| 10:11 |
erlehmann |
i saw screencasts of it |
| 10:11 |
erlehmann |
it is a doom mod, but minecraft-style levels |
| 10:58 |
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| 12:41 |
pgimeno |
@erlehmann: in my view, if Minetest does not want to die from lack of users, it needs to update to more modern graphic standards, and by that I mean appeal, not capabilities; however the former implies the latter. |
| 12:42 |
pgimeno |
If it only appeals to people who can run it on a potato, it leaves out people who can run it on a more modern machine and feel it's too old looking. |
| 12:43 |
pgimeno |
And the latter group is almost certainly more numerous. |
| 12:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Minetest cannot die from lack of users. If it could, it would be modding API issues that would do it, not graphics. |
| 13:05 |
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| 13:14 |
erlehmann |
pgimeno basing something on a hypothetical what future users would like and future technologies would enable sounds suspiciously like every other case of “let's break compatibility” i have seen. the actual argument is more honestly written out ass “i care neither about your use case nor your opinion – so let's do what i, personally, think is trendy”. |
| 13:15 |
erlehmann |
pgimeno there may be good reasons to break compatibility, but “some hypothetical ppl i just made will not use the software” sounds like it is not among them. |
| 13:15 |
erlehmann |
i just made → i just made up |
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| 13:49 |
pgimeno |
no, currently shadows suck because the graphics subsystem sucks, it's not merely hypothetical |
| 14:08 |
sfan5 |
performance issues on certain current hardware are real, too |
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| 15:14 |
rubenwardy |
10 years old machines in 2021 were up to date machines in 2011 |
| 15:14 |
rubenwardy |
dated graphics code is likely the cause of performance issues |
| 15:14 |
rubenwardy |
along with dumb stuff like n^2 collisions and not batching rendering |
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| 15:32 |
celeron55 |
saying MT does what's trendy is the most ridiculous argument i've ever heard |
| 15:32 |
celeron55 |
everything we do is so far from trendy i forgot the word even existed |
| 15:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Just make a PR that removes all the suck but keeps everything else intact. |
| 15:33 |
celeron55 |
developing MT is almost like making not being trendy an artform |
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| 16:00 |
pgimeno |
trendy? it's all about improving graphics, it's even in the roadmap |
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| 17:47 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 sfan5 i have read up on opengl history and wow what a ride. i think i will probably use the last version of minetest that runs on my main computer and try to backport protocol changes, if the rendering is ruined. or just find something else that is similarly fun. |
| 17:47 |
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| 17:47 |
sfan5 |
the thinkpad from 2011 is your main computer? |
| 17:47 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 17:47 |
sfan5 |
huh |
| 17:48 |
erlehmann |
it's the last widely prduced laptop that has a 4:3 matte screen |
| 17:48 |
erlehmann |
and up until this openGL thingy the only problem was disk speed, which you can solve with an SSD |
| 17:49 |
erlehmann |
i may switch to reform, but so far there is no full disk encryption there |
| 17:49 |
erlehmann |
and who knows what else breaks because even less people hve reform 1 or 2 than old thinkpads |
| 17:49 |
Krock |
and after that, your intel iGPU will be the bottleneck |
| 17:49 |
erlehmann |
? |
| 17:49 |
sfan5 |
I'm pretty sure you can make FDE work there if it runs u-boot |
| 17:50 |
erlehmann |
it is just not there yet |
| 17:51 |
erlehmann |
anyways, i intend to make the reform2 my main computer *if it works*, but if minetest is going after “how many people have the hardware” i am *definitely* worse off with reform, i'll have to find something else eventually |
| 17:51 |
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| 17:51 |
erlehmann |
i understand now why everyone and their dog loves shaders |
| 17:51 |
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| 17:52 |
sfan5 |
because they're needed to make modern things work? |
| 17:52 |
erlehmann |
i doubt that is the reason, because for most purposes that are not high-performance gaming it is not necessary |
| 17:53 |
erlehmann |
i think the reason is that devs appreciate the mental model much more |
| 17:53 |
Pexin |
mmmm |
| 17:53 |
sfan5 |
sounds like whatever you read about OpenGL is outdated then |
| 17:53 |
Pexin |
m.m.m.m. |
| 17:54 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 no i am going by “which apps have 3d will not work without shaders” and the vast majority seem to be games |
| 17:55 |
erlehmann |
i have yet to encounter a screensaver, for example, that does shader stuff, but maybe the era of screensavers was before GLSL |
| 17:55 |
Pexin |
currently typing on a laptop that "should" run MT ok, but nvidia has no updated drivers for this which are compatible with modern linux kernel. and nouveau is.. lacking |
| 17:55 |
erlehmann |
anyway, i get it now. i just hope whatever rendering changes minetest makes are better handled than the shadow mess. |
| 17:55 |
Krock |
Pexin: there's still the legacy drivers |
| 17:56 |
erlehmann |
i.e. not breaking unrelated things |
| 17:56 |
Pexin |
Krock: already pursued. legacy drivers not compatible with this kernel. or at least, refuses to install. |
| 17:56 |
erlehmann |
Pexin how is software rendering lol |
| 17:56 |
erlehmann |
LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=1 on the thinkpad gets me about 1 fps |
| 17:57 |
Pexin |
it's not really software rendering, |
| 17:57 |
erlehmann |
that's like a fifth of opengl ES performance! |
| 17:57 |
Pexin |
but nouveau is missing something |
| 17:57 |
sfan5 |
Pexin: did you try the package from your distribution or "on your own"? |
| 17:57 |
Pexin |
sfan5: both |
| 17:58 |
sfan5 |
distro? |
| 17:58 |
erlehmann |
well the upside of shaders is much cooler cheat clients i guess |
| 17:58 |
Pexin |
well, there isnt one in the distro |
| 17:58 |
sfan5 |
that's a no then |
| 17:58 |
Pexin |
but the ppa yes |
| 17:58 |
sfan5 |
just trying to compile the sources from nvidia won't work, but distros often provide the necessary patches with their packages |
| 17:58 |
Pexin |
the official legacy from nvidia has its own windows-style installer which not only didnt work, but screwed my packages |
| 17:59 |
Krock |
huh? the version your package manager comes which should be the most stable one |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Linux just works™️ |
| 17:59 |
Krock |
s/which/with/ |
| 18:00 |
Pexin |
Krock: there isnt a compatible legacy driver in the standard ubuntu repo, the official ppa wont install because it hates this kernel |
| 18:00 |
sfan5 |
installing vendor packages especially drivers on Linux is a fatal mistake |
| 18:00 |
erlehmann |
Jordach same as OS X, it works until you install some weirdo vendor shit that generally does not play nice with the system and breaks every upgrade |
| 18:00 |
Pexin |
sfan5: yeah. I noticed :] managed to fix it though |
| 18:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> I don’t know getting Minetest purring was straightforward |
| 18:00 |
erlehmann |
a friend of mine has an old macbook with some VJing sotware bc that's sometimes her job and … well |
| 18:01 |
sfan5 |
which GPU is it anyway? |
| 18:01 |
erlehmann |
TIL: minetest is a cat type pokeman |
| 18:01 |
Krock |
Pexin: hmm. I don't know about 5.x kernels, but at least early 4.x kernels surely worked well with it |
| 18:01 |
erlehmann |
LOL am i getting better performance right now than some nvidia card? |
| 18:02 |
Pexin |
dang, I forget what chipset. compaq presario v6000 anyway |
| 18:02 |
Krock |
you'll easily reach the performance of a Riva TNT 2 card... which is an ancient nvidia card |
| 18:02 |
Krock |
> either NVIDIA GeForce Go 6150 or Intel X3100 depending on cpu family or NVIDIA GeForce Go 7150M |
| 18:03 |
Krock |
that's truely an ancient system |
| 18:03 |
Pexin |
yeah |
| 18:03 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 sfan5 so what's the plan, when do i have to stop playing minetest and writing stuff for mineclonia until i found a new computing platform i like, is it this year or next year? |
| 18:04 |
erlehmann |
like when is openGL 1.4 support dropped |
| 18:04 |
Pexin |
(I don't do real work on this machine, don't worry) |
| 18:04 |
erlehmann |
Pexin i have found that having an older machine make whatever you code buttery smooth on current-gen machines |
| 18:04 |
erlehmann |
bc you literally can't cheat on performance |
| 18:04 |
sfan5 |
dunno, this year? you'll find out when it happens |
| 18:04 |
Pexin |
friend gave it to me on the off chance I could make it do something useful. the old windows install had broken |
| 18:05 |
erlehmann |
i am already not happy with such a vague threat of breakage |
| 18:05 |
erlehmann |
i guess "when it's done", like everything |
| 18:06 |
erlehmann |
i wonder if cheat client authors will love it or hate it |
| 18:06 |
Pexin |
OH and when i try to use it for zoom, after a minute video and input both freeze completely, but sound keeps going |
| 18:06 |
erlehmann |
i mean on the one hand fullbright and brightnight will have to be rewritten prob |
| 18:06 |
sfan5 |
neutral, rewritten rendering is irrelevant to them |
| 18:06 |
erlehmann |
on the other hand, it's probably not much |
| 18:06 |
Pexin |
especially when the meeting goes into screensharing |
| 18:07 |
erlehmann |
i mean fullbright is easy |
| 18:07 |
rubenwardy |
erlehmann: shaders are needed to make the best use of the GPU, which results in greater rendering performance - even with an iGPU. They're not just for fancy effects |
| 18:07 |
sfan5 |
rubenwardy: not with an igpu from 2011 though ;) |
| 18:08 |
rubenwardy |
hmm, didn't they start to get good around then? |
| 18:08 |
sfan5 |
dunno |
| 18:08 |
sfan5 |
few years later I'd say |
| 18:10 |
erlehmann |
i have a thinkpad T60 as my main machine. i have several broken thinkpad T60s in storage in case the one breaks. otherwise i have a thinkpad R60 and a reform 1 (imx6) and reform 2 (imx8). i never really expected to *have* to use the reforms, but it might soon be the only computers i actually own that can run minetest. |
| 18:11 |
erlehmann |
if anyone else knows a modern computer with a 4:3 matte screen and a non-shitty keyboard that has replaceable parts, speak up. it *probabld* does not get better than reform or old thinkpad. |
| 18:11 |
erlehmann |
probably |
| 18:11 |
sfan5 |
what's wrong with 16:10? |
| 18:13 |
erlehmann |
that the item bar is not at the side of the screen or something? |
| 18:13 |
erlehmann |
manufacturers have abandoned 4:3 in favor of the newer 16:9 widescreens around 2012 or sso |
| 18:14 |
Krock |
you guys have item bars? |
| 18:14 |
erlehmann |
Krock are you playing node core or what |
| 18:14 |
Krock |
just F1 |
| 18:14 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 actually i want two terminals beside each other that are much higher than wide |
| 18:15 |
erlehmann |
i can kinda get a similar effect on 16:9 with three terminals besside each other, but it's a waste of screen real estate |
| 18:15 |
erlehmann |
also i actually desire a minimum *height* of the screen |
| 18:15 |
erlehmann |
and guess what, 16:9 screens are not that tall |
| 18:16 |
Pexin |
I only minetest in windowed mode anyway |
| 18:16 |
erlehmann |
well, regardless |
| 18:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> what's wrong with 16:10 |
| 18:19 |
erlehmann |
look i don't care about your tastes in screen dimensions. i usually do not play proprietary games becaue they keep breaking, after 5 or 10 or 15 years they are often unplayable unless source is released or someone re-implements the engine. |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> do you live in an office or something |
| 18:20 |
erlehmann |
no but i do work from home and have only a door for the bathroom so technically yes? |
| 18:20 |
erlehmann |
correction, there are two doors |
| 18:20 |
erlehmann |
but one is for the space before the bathroom and permanently open |
| 18:22 |
erlehmann |
Jordach how is your quake inspired minetest shooter going? |
| 18:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> does using a different networking system make any sense |
| 18:22 |
erlehmann |
no idea, have you tried using SCTP? |
| 18:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i'm writing something with simple sockets |
| 18:23 |
erlehmann |
if you don't know, check this out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol |
| 18:24 |
erlehmann |
have you by now put an indestructible wall between your map content and the ignore nodes? |
| 18:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i have other things in my development pipeline |
| 18:24 |
erlehmann |
ok, well, think of me when you get strange interactions with ignore nodes! |
| 18:24 |
erlehmann |
they are so very funny |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i'll give you a hint |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> a way to load mapblocks with regular SAO would solve it as ignore is treated as collidable |
| 18:25 |
erlehmann |
uh what |
| 18:25 |
erlehmann |
like a mapblock load anchor? |
| 18:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> basically any entity would then load the world like players |
| 18:26 |
erlehmann |
that does sound like a performance nightmare |
| 18:26 |
erlehmann |
but your maps are p small |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> the server loads a bigger area than you think |
| 18:26 |
erlehmann |
as long as it does not become a default in minetet proper … |
| 18:27 |
erlehmann |
that is always true for the server |
| 18:27 |
erlehmann |
the aforementioned ignore blocks are a symptom of that |
| 18:49 |
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| 19:46 |
independent56 |
My server migration is complete. Wordpress is broken, but other then that, everything is fine. You probably wouldn't even notice any difference apart from speed. |
| 19:51 |
independent56 |
Ha, who needs to migrate to mediawiki when you can just install the monobook tempalte XD |
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| 22:37 |
Alias |
A couple of minutes ago, my server crashed and sent me error messages like so: |
| 22:37 |
Alias |
StaticObjectList::remove(): id=39444 not found |
| 22:37 |
Alias |
ServerEnv: Failed to emerge block (29242,29793,0) when deleting static data of object from it. id=39442 |
| 22:37 |
Alias |
Server is on 5.4.1 and postgresql 11 |
| 22:38 |
Alias |
Should I worry? take any action? Or shrug it off? |
| 22:39 |
sfan5 |
what you are quoting is not a fatal error, if it crashed it should be because of something else |
| 22:44 |
Alias |
Those and similar were the last messages in the log, no other error before or after at that time |
| 22:45 |
Alias |
https://pastebin.com/kFW4hUWW |
| 22:46 |
Alias |
Those were the exact lines, before that came around 15 logouts of players |
| 22:46 |
Alias |
log level is action |
| 22:46 |
sfan5 |
nothing before the logout of all players? |
| 22:48 |
Alias |
Nothing suspicious. People placed blocks and sent chat messages |
| 22:48 |
Alias |
Noone was in the area mentioned, as far as I can tell |
| 22:50 |
sfan5 |
well the server suddenly existing must have come from somewhere, it wasn't this |
| 22:50 |
sfan5 |
exiting* |
| 22:53 |
Alias |
I grepped for ERROR in the log, last error was half an hour ago |
| 22:54 |
Alias |
I seem to have "suspiciously large amount of objects detected" often |
| 23:02 |
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| 23:20 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
Is there anything specific I should look for? |
| 23:21 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
I went several minutes into the past from the point of crash, but there's nothing but placing actions, logins, logouts, a couple of mobs attacking |
| 23:24 |
erlehmann |
AliasAlreadyTake it is possible for minetest to unceremoniously crash without leaving a trace |
| 23:25 |
erlehmann |
in that case whatever came before is not necessarily the reason |
| 23:25 |
erlehmann |
even *most likely* not the reason |
| 23:25 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
Nonono! I have not allowed minetest to do such a thing! :D |
| 23:26 |
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| 23:28 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
However, if those error messages are not responsible for the crash, but a consequence, then could anyone take a guess what *might* have lead to it? |
| 23:38 |
erlehmann |
AliasAlreadyTake, have you checked that the OOM killer has not gone on a murderous rampage? |
| 23:39 |
erlehmann |
> Failed to emerge block (29242,29793,0) |
| 23:39 |
erlehmann |
looks edgy |
| 23:40 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
How would I collect evidence on the OOM killer thingy to put it in jail? |
| 23:44 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
Not sure why it would want to emerge this block or the other one (0,704,-23656) for that matter. No player near, noone has any business there |
| 23:47 |
erlehmann |
nether portals or shit? |
| 23:47 |
erlehmann |
i'd check all the mods for emerge calls prob |
