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MinetestBot |
[git] mk-pmb -> minetest/minetest: Fix double word "true" in minetest.is_nan explanation (#10820) e86c93f https://git.io/JtImU (2021-01-18T00:45:32Z) |
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| 18:47 |
Sven_vB |
hi :) |
| 18:47 |
Guest12510 |
Hi |
| 18:48 |
Guest12510 |
:0 |
| 18:48 |
Guest12510 |
:) |
| 18:49 |
Sven_vB |
what's the reasoning to disable CSM? are there really any OreMiner users that are unable to fork and compile? increasing the cost of "cheating" by an hour of spare time, to me seems a very small gain compared to the collateral damage. |
| 18:49 |
Tim86 |
Idk. |
| 18:49 |
Sven_vB |
or OreFinder or what it's called |
| 18:49 |
Tim86 |
Im kinda new to minetest. |
| 18:52 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> CSM can give unfair advantage to the player who uses them afaik. Example: Usually who has the colored chat CSM can use fly and fast. |
| 18:52 |
Tim86 |
So I downloaded colour chat CSM, and I enabled CSM settings, but I tried .help, and the command wasn't there. Is there any way I can fix that? |
| 18:52 |
Tim86 |
Sorry if Im asking a dum question. |
| 18:53 |
Tim86 |
Oh.. ok |
| 18:54 |
Tim86 |
I guess that explains why it's only for admins and moderators. |
| 18:55 |
Sven_vB |
oh, is movement ability not verified by the server? |
| 18:57 |
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| 18:58 |
rubenwardy |
the verification is limited - the speed is checked, but that's about it |
| 18:58 |
rubenwardy |
you can fly and noclip with client-side modifications fairly trivially |
| 18:59 |
Tim86 |
Why do people create CSMs where you can fly and noclip without the priv? Or is it just some glitch? |
| 19:00 |
rubenwardy |
you can't do that using a CSM, you need to modify C++ |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> And usually who knows how to add them to his client knows how to use the cheaty ones |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> It is basicly cheating the game which is not allowed on most servers |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> On Anarchy servers cheated/hacked client are allowed as long as the creator knows what is an anarchy server |
| 19:01 |
tango_ |
so the proper fix to this would be to have more stringent checks server-side? |
| 19:02 |
tango_ |
but I guess the issue here would be doing this without bogging down the client/server exchange |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> If u mean by "fix" that making people not use it is: Making it nit allowed and ban who use them (that is my opinion) |
| 19:07 |
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| 19:07 |
tango_ |
still needs the server to check that all motions are valid |
| 19:08 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Im not sure if there is a mode that checks if a person ia using a CSM |
| 19:08 |
tango_ |
the thing is that it shouldn't matter if the user is using a CSM |
| 19:09 |
tango_ |
the CSM (and the client in general) shouldn't allow things that aren't allowed |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> But not too many people uses them and not all of them use cheats with the and when u will make it not allowed to use then it will be very rare and moderating it wont be hard |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:09 |
tango_ |
in the sense that should be programmatically impossible to achieve |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> The CSM is made outside of the game so it wont learn the server rules ? |
| 19:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Did you ever see some people who fly, use fast, noclip and +range? That is added with CSMs |
| 19:11 |
tango_ |
I think you're missing what I'm saying |
| 19:11 |
tango_ |
it should be progragmatically impossible for the client to do that |
| 19:11 |
tango_ |
but to do that, the server should check every single motion from each client |
| 19:12 |
Sven_vB |
tango_, a client can interact any way its user wants. any enforcements need to be on the server. |
| 19:12 |
tango_ |
Sven_vB: that's what I'm saying |
| 19:12 |
tango_ |
the problem is that becomes very expensive for the server |
| 19:12 |
Sven_vB |
I know |
| 19:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Knot Abbot> You should check the player's behaviour maybe |
| 19:13 |
tango_ |
so it's not really feasible with the current system |
| 19:13 |
Sven_vB |
quality usually is more expensive, in any aspect of life. |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Knot Abbot> I've seen it done by MC server admins. |
| 19:13 |
Sven_vB |
yeah you can log their behavior and verify later on suspicion. |
| 19:13 |
Sven_vB |
like iRL police should do, in theory. |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Knot Abbot> lol true |
| 19:14 |
Sven_vB |
of course the logging is done not by police iRL but by physics of our world. |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I got what you mean @tango_ IRC#0000 |
| 19:16 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I guess that is hard or even impossible to do bc a CSM is something made out of the game so even if Minetest doesnt allow they can find 100 ways to trick that code |
| 19:16 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> So making it up to the server owner is easier |
| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Than making a code to ignore it then making a new one to ignore the new CSMs that can trick the older code... |
| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Aswell some servers allows Cheated clients |
| 19:17 |
tango_ |
since csm runs on the client, they can't do things the client can't do |
| 19:17 |
tango_ |
if the server checks all client actions, cheating becomes impossible (modulo server-side bugs, that can be fixed easily) |
| 19:18 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> And some CSMs has been worked on for a long time and they are not for cheat |
| 19:18 |
Sven_vB |
well I for one am making code to unrestrict CSM, which as collateral damage may help cheaters, but it seems to be the easiest way to hook up accessibility tools to the chat. |
| 19:19 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Tango, making something that checks every client requires a code and some proffesional programmers may add some stuff to trick that code and make it cant know if this is a cheated client or not |
| 19:19 |
Sven_vB |
unfortunately there's no technical way to differentiate between chat and NPC dialoge being controlled by a selfplaying bot, or them being accessed via exotic hardware. |
| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> And you can add moderators to your server to take actions for CSM(cheated ones) users |
| 19:22 |
rubenwardy |
You're not checking whether the client is cheated |
| 19:22 |
rubenwardy |
you're checking whether the actions are cheating |
| 19:22 |
rubenwardy |
the way to do this would be client-side prediction and server-side reconcilliation |
| 19:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Knot Abbot> behaviour can trick them >:) |
| 19:22 |
Sven_vB |
If I'd invest more time in learning about our network protocol, it might turn out I could flip that bit with a simple netfilter rule. |
| 19:22 |
rubenwardy |
there would require the client to send actions like Forward/Back/Punch to the server, and the server would verify and act them |
| 19:23 |
rubenwardy |
The client wouldn't be able to send a Fly action to enter flying state |
| 19:23 |
Sven_vB |
rubenwardy, verifying them in realtime might cause too much delay |
| 19:23 |
rubenwardy |
To avoid network latency effects, the client would perform predictions - it would apply the action early |
| 19:23 |
rubenwardy |
Popular games already do this |
| 19:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> So that will work once a player does something they do not have privellage to do? |
| 19:24 |
rubenwardy |
If the client tries to fly, the server will notice that the client position doesn't match the given Actions and will tell the client to rollback |
| 19:24 |
rubenwardy |
The client can ignore this, but the server and other players will still see the client in the previous location |
| 19:24 |
tango_ |
and if the client doesn't rollback they get kicked |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> No kick |
| 19:24 |
tango_ |
(this can be detected by continuing mismatch) |
| 19:24 |
rubenwardy |
There's no way to really tell |
| 19:25 |
tango_ |
well, sort of |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Sometimes lag happens and u fly |
| 19:25 |
rubenwardy |
because the client can just pretend to have followed the rollback |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I flyed alot on ruben's server XD |
| 19:25 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah, rollbacks don't necessarily mean bad behaviour |
| 19:25 |
tango_ |
not bad, just mismatched |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I ws talking about the kick |
| 19:25 |
rubenwardy |
But even if you can't tell if the client is misbehaving, it doesn't matter because they won't affect other players |
| 19:26 |
tango_ |
if mismatches pile up it would make sense to kick, because either it's cheating or there's some serious network mismatch or other |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Wont that cause too much lag btw? |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> When we make rollback on the server gets ultimate lag |
| 19:27 |
rubenwardy |
Popular games already do this |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Knot Abbot> What does matter is if they keep flying for an extended amount of time is what I'm saying. |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Knot Abbot> That can be logged. |
| 19:27 |
rubenwardy |
Also, there's a PR #6219 |
| 19:27 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6219 -- Server side movement by bendeutsch |
| 19:28 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> > That can be logged. If that is the solution u already can add moderators who can take action and no need to make a bot |
| 19:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Knot Abbot> ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 19:53 |
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| 19:55 |
Bombo |
hi |
| 19:55 |
Bombo |
i installed world edit 1.2, it works ;) i added a pyramid, but how do i get rid of it |
| 19:56 |
Bombo |
no //undo |
| 19:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> if just the pyramid in the area, set it to air |
| 19:57 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> There is a "worldedit_undo" mode afaik |
| 19:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> uh...no, unless your using hybrid_dogs? fork |
| 19:58 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Not sure but i saw it in some diffrent servers in /mods |
| 20:01 |
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| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://github.com/HybridDog/we_undo |
| 20:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/issues/43> |
| 20:09 |
Bombo |
air isa nice trick thx jon ;) |
| 20:09 |
Bombo |
will try we_undo too |
| 20:10 |
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| 20:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> yeah, most people i know just set stuff to air |
| 20:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> or //replace the node |
| 20:39 |
Bombo |
https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/blob/master/ChatCommands.md |
| 20:39 |
Bombo |
i tried //mix stone 3 dirt 2 |
| 20:40 |
Bombo |
got invalid node name 3 |
| 20:42 |
sfan5 |
works for me |
| 20:50 |
Bombo |
invalid command brush |
| 20:50 |
Bombo |
hmm |
| 20:52 |
sfan5 |
install the git version of worldedit, not 1.2 |
| 20:54 |
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| 20:59 |
Bombo |
that was a git idea ;) |
| 20:59 |
Bombo |
now it works |
| 21:02 |
Bombo |
pyramid brush \o/ |
| 21:33 |
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| 21:37 |
Bombo |
it would help if e.g. pyramid would be created in the center of the region |
| 21:37 |
Bombo |
not at pos 1 |
| 21:37 |
Bombo |
tfor faster removal :) |
| 21:38 |
Bombo |
is it possible to have an air brush? would be handy too i guess ;) |
| 21:40 |
Bombo |
and what about this https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=8552 |
| 21:40 |
Bombo |
cursor keys |
| 21:41 |
Bombo |
*ircbump* ;) |
| 21:42 |
sfan5 |
"is it possible to have an air brush?" there is nothing special about air, you can use any brush with air too |
| 21:45 |
Bombo |
oy nice, got it |
| 21:52 |
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| 23:44 |
MTDiscord |
<RAB> Offtopic: dev @rubenwardy @sfan5 or knowledgeable others: Is there a place to report servers that allow pedophiles to 'groom' and sexually solicit underage children? Having servers like this listed on the public Minetest server list demeans from the value of all of Minetest, and is morally wrong, and feloniously criminal. |
| 23:48 |
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| 23:48 |
sfan5 |
yes, talk to us in PM |
| 23:48 |
sfan5 |
(but not now because I'll be going to sleep) |
| 23:52 |
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