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IRC log for #minetest, 2021-01-18

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00:47 MinetestBot [git] mk-pmb -> minetest/minetest: Fix double word "true" in minetest.is_nan explanation (#10820) e86c93f https://git.io/JtImU (2021-01-18T00:45:32Z)
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18:47 Sven_vB hi :)
18:47 Guest12510 Hi
18:48 Guest12510 :0
18:48 Guest12510 :)
18:49 Sven_vB what's the reasoning to disable CSM? are there really any OreMiner users that are unable to fork and compile? increasing the cost of "cheating" by an hour of spare time, to me seems a very small gain compared to the collateral damage.
18:49 Tim86 Idk.
18:49 Sven_vB or OreFinder or what it's called
18:49 Tim86 Im kinda new to minetest.
18:52 MTDiscord <w​war> CSM can give unfair advantage to the player who uses them afaik. Example: Usually who has the colored chat CSM can use fly and fast.
18:52 Tim86 So I downloaded colour chat CSM, and I enabled CSM settings, but I tried .help, and the command wasn't there. Is there any way I can fix that?
18:52 Tim86 Sorry if Im asking a dum question.
18:53 Tim86 Oh.. ok
18:54 Tim86 I guess that explains why it's only for admins and moderators.
18:55 Sven_vB oh, is movement ability not verified by the server?
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18:58 rubenwardy the verification is limited - the speed is checked, but that's about it
18:58 rubenwardy you can fly and noclip with client-side modifications fairly trivially
18:59 Tim86 Why do people create CSMs where you can fly and noclip without the priv? Or is it just some glitch?
19:00 rubenwardy you can't do that using a CSM, you need to modify C++
19:00 MTDiscord <w​war> And usually who knows how to add them to his client knows how to use the cheaty ones
19:00 MTDiscord <w​war> It is basicly cheating the game which is not allowed on most servers
19:01 MTDiscord <w​war> On Anarchy servers cheated/hacked client are allowed as long as the creator knows what is an anarchy server
19:01 tango_ so the proper fix to this would be to have more stringent checks server-side?
19:02 tango_ but I guess the issue here would be doing this without bogging down the client/server exchange
19:06 MTDiscord <w​war> If u mean by "fix" that making people not use it is: Making it nit allowed and ban who use them (that is my opinion)
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19:07 tango_ still needs the server to check that all motions are valid
19:08 MTDiscord <w​war> Im not sure if there is a mode that checks if a person ia using a CSM
19:08 tango_ the thing is that it shouldn't matter if the user is using a CSM
19:09 tango_ the CSM (and the client in general) shouldn't allow things that aren't allowed
19:09 MTDiscord <w​war> But not too many people uses them and not all of them use cheats with the  and when u will make it not allowed to use then it will be very rare and moderating it wont be hard
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19:09 tango_ in the sense that should be programmatically impossible to achieve
19:09 MTDiscord <w​war> The CSM is made outside of the game so it wont learn the server rules 🤣
19:10 MTDiscord <w​war> Did you ever see some people who fly, use fast, noclip and +range? That is added with CSMs
19:11 tango_ I think you're missing what I'm saying
19:11 tango_ it should be progragmatically impossible for the client to do that
19:11 tango_ but to do that, the server should check every single motion from each client
19:12 Sven_vB tango_, a client can interact any way its user wants. any enforcements need to be on the server.
19:12 tango_ Sven_vB: that's what I'm saying
19:12 tango_ the problem is that becomes very expensive for the server
19:12 Sven_vB I know
19:12 MTDiscord <K​not Abbot> You should check the player's behaviour maybe
19:13 tango_ so it's not really feasible with the current system
19:13 Sven_vB quality usually is more expensive, in any aspect of life.
19:13 MTDiscord <K​not Abbot> I've seen it done by MC server admins.
19:13 Sven_vB yeah you can log their behavior and verify later on suspicion.
19:13 Sven_vB like iRL police should do, in theory.
19:14 MTDiscord <K​not Abbot> lol true
19:14 Sven_vB of course the logging is done not by police iRL but by physics of our world.
19:14 MTDiscord <w​war> I got what you mean   @tango_@IRC#0000
19:16 MTDiscord <w​war> I guess that is hard or even impossible to do bc a CSM is something made out of the game so even if Minetest doesnt allow they can find 100 ways to trick that code
19:16 MTDiscord <w​war> So making it up to the server owner is easier
19:17 MTDiscord <w​war> Than making a code to ignore it then making a new one to ignore the new CSMs that can trick the older code...
19:17 MTDiscord <w​war> Aswell some servers allows Cheated clients
19:17 tango_ since csm runs on the client, they can't do things the client can't do
19:17 tango_ if the server checks all client actions, cheating becomes impossible (modulo server-side bugs, that can be fixed easily)
19:18 MTDiscord <w​war> And some CSMs has been worked on for a long time and they are not for cheat
19:18 Sven_vB well I for one am making code to unrestrict CSM, which as collateral damage may help cheaters, but it seems to be the easiest way to hook up accessibility tools to the chat.
19:19 MTDiscord <w​war> Tango, making something that checks every client requires a code and some proffesional programmers may add some stuff to trick that code and make it cant know if this is a cheated client or not
19:19 Sven_vB unfortunately there's no technical way to differentiate between chat and NPC dialoge being controlled by a selfplaying bot, or them being accessed via exotic hardware.
19:20 MTDiscord <w​war> And you can add moderators to your server to take actions for CSM(cheated ones) users
19:22 rubenwardy You're not checking whether the client is cheated
19:22 rubenwardy you're checking whether the actions are cheating
19:22 rubenwardy the way to do this would be client-side prediction and server-side reconcilliation
19:22 MTDiscord <K​not Abbot> behaviour can trick them >:)
19:22 Sven_vB If I'd invest more time in learning about our network protocol, it might turn out I could flip that bit with a simple netfilter rule.
19:22 rubenwardy there would require the client to send actions like Forward/Back/Punch to the server, and the server would verify and act them
19:23 rubenwardy The client wouldn't be able to send a Fly action to enter flying state
19:23 Sven_vB rubenwardy, verifying them in realtime might cause too much delay
19:23 rubenwardy To avoid network latency effects, the client would perform predictions - it would apply the action early
19:23 rubenwardy Popular games already do this
19:23 MTDiscord <w​war> So that will work once a player does something they do not have privellage to do?
19:24 rubenwardy If the client tries to fly, the server will notice that the client position doesn't match the given Actions and will tell the client to rollback
19:24 rubenwardy The client can ignore this, but the server and other players will still see the client in the previous location
19:24 tango_ and if the client doesn't rollback they get kicked
19:24 MTDiscord <w​war> No kick
19:24 tango_ (this can be detected by continuing mismatch)
19:24 rubenwardy There's no way to really tell
19:25 tango_ well, sort of
19:25 MTDiscord <w​war> Sometimes lag happens and u fly
19:25 rubenwardy because the client can just pretend to have followed the rollback
19:25 MTDiscord <w​war> I flyed alot on ruben's server XD
19:25 rubenwardy Yeah, rollbacks don't necessarily mean bad behaviour
19:25 tango_ not bad, just mismatched
19:25 MTDiscord <w​war> I ws talking about the kick
19:25 rubenwardy But even if you can't tell if the client is misbehaving, it doesn't matter because they won't affect other players
19:26 tango_ if mismatches pile up it would make sense to kick, because either it's cheating or there's some serious network mismatch or other
19:26 MTDiscord <w​war> Wont that cause too much lag btw?
19:26 MTDiscord <w​war> When we make rollback on the server gets ultimate lag
19:27 rubenwardy Popular games  already do this
19:27 MTDiscord <K​not Abbot> What does matter is if they keep flying for an extended amount of time is what I'm saying.
19:27 MTDiscord <K​not Abbot> That can be logged.
19:27 rubenwardy Also, there's a PR #6219
19:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6219 -- Server side movement by bendeutsch
19:28 MTDiscord <w​war> > That can be logged. If that is the solution u already can add moderators who can take action and no need to make a bot
19:28 MTDiscord <K​not Abbot> ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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19:55 Bombo hi
19:55 Bombo i installed world edit 1.2, it works ;) i added a pyramid, but how do i get rid of it
19:56 Bombo no //undo
19:56 MTDiscord <J​onathon> if just the pyramid in the area, set it to air
19:57 MTDiscord <w​war> There is a "worldedit_undo" mode afaik
19:58 MTDiscord <J​onathon> uh...no, unless your using hybrid_dogs? fork
19:58 MTDiscord <w​war> Not sure but i saw it in some diffrent servers in /mods
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20:03 MTDiscord <J​onathon> https://github.com/HybridDog/we_undo
20:04 MTDiscord <J​onathon> https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/issues/43>
20:09 Bombo air isa nice trick thx jon ;)
20:09 Bombo will try we_undo too
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20:10 MTDiscord <J​onathon> yeah, most people i know just set stuff to air
20:10 MTDiscord <J​onathon> or //replace the node
20:39 Bombo https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/blob/master/ChatCommands.md
20:39 Bombo i tried //mix stone 3 dirt 2
20:40 Bombo got invalid node name 3
20:42 sfan5 works for me
20:50 Bombo invalid command brush
20:50 Bombo hmm
20:52 sfan5 install the git version of worldedit, not 1.2
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20:59 Bombo that was a git idea ;)
20:59 Bombo now it works
21:02 Bombo pyramid brush \o/
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21:37 Bombo it would help if e.g. pyramid would be created in the center of the region
21:37 Bombo not at pos 1
21:37 Bombo tfor faster removal :)
21:38 Bombo is it possible to have an air brush? would be handy too i guess ;)
21:40 Bombo and what about this https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=8552
21:40 Bombo cursor keys
21:41 Bombo *ircbump* ;)
21:42 sfan5 "is it possible to have an air brush?" there is nothing special about air, you can use any brush with air too
21:45 Bombo oy nice, got it
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23:44 MTDiscord <R​AB> Offtopic:  dev @rubenwardy @sfan5 or knowledgeable others:  Is there a place to report servers that allow pedophiles to 'groom' and sexually solicit underage children?  Having servers like this listed on the public Minetest server list demeans from the value of all of Minetest, and is morally wrong, and feloniously criminal.
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23:48 sfan5 yes, talk to us in PM
23:48 sfan5 (but not now because I'll be going to sleep)
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