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IRC log for #minetest, 2020-07-21

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Time Nick Message
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03:55 SoylentCow where am i?
03:55 SoylentCow mt
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04:38 Extex How do I make something take like 3 seconds to break no matter the tool?
05:05 Extex Anybody?
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07:36 Flitzpiepe hello everyone
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10:28 Guest4875 How is the preference list of minetest development? I mean what comes first: feature request or bugs?
10:29 Guest4875 I'm wondering if put feature request issues in github will waste developers time
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10:41 balirt @Extex look at this part of the documentation:
10:41 balirt https://minetest.gitlab.io/minetest/groups/#known-damage-and-digging-time-defining-groups
10:41 balirt remove all the typical groups used for toolbreaking from your node [such as crumbly, cracky, snappy, etc], and give it the group "oddly_breakable_by_hand=1".
10:41 balirt As long as no other tool has the correct groups to dig the node, it should always break after ~3.5seconds
10:54 bebebeko rubenwardy: hi, looks like ssl cert on your site is expired. openssl s_client -connect rubenwardy.com:443 < /dev/null 2>&1 | grep -m1 ^notAfter=
10:54 bebebeko notAfter=Jul 20 22:41:48 2020 GMT
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11:48 H-H-H hey guys any windows 64 builders around
11:48 H-H-H been trying to build minetest on win 10 64bit by following the readme on github for hrs and keep getting the same errors
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12:16 MinetestBot [git] MoNTE48 -> minetest/minetest: Android: Fix ConfirmRegistration and PasswordChange input and scale s… 76afde8 https://git.io/JJWUi (2020-07-21T12:16:25Z)
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13:22 specing VanessaE: hello, is there a reason why the autocrafter cannot be queried for the crafting recipe?
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13:51 erentar1 how do i find bronze
13:53 calcul0n erentar1, you can't find it, craft it with 8 copper ingots and one tin in the middle
13:53 erentar1 how do i find copper
13:53 calcul0n but some mods might change the recipe
13:54 erentar1 i cant find anything but coal
13:54 erentar1 stone pickaxe is slow
13:54 calcul0n dig deeper :)
13:54 erentar1 ive got to -150 or so, whereabouts do i find the minerals?
13:54 calcul0n you should find some there, maybe they are a bit rare at this level
13:55 erentar1 what level do i find usable amounts
13:55 sfan5 below -64 for copper, -128 for tin
13:55 erentar1 thanks!
13:55 calcul0n the best is to go around -1000 but you'll find a lot before you reach it
13:56 erentar1 oof
13:56 erentar1 stone pickaxe is kinda painfully slow to get there
13:56 calcul0n you should find iron quickly too
13:58 erentar1 i have filled a chest full of cobble and havent found anything but coal yet
13:59 balirt do the texture overlaying commands work nested, so each overlaid texture can be changed individually (ex. with [mask, [colorize )
13:59 calcul0n don't despair, you're on the right way :)
13:59 erentar1 thanks lol
13:59 erentar1 this information is nowhere to be found
13:59 erentar1 gotta add it to the wiki
14:00 balirt its probably in the ore generator
14:00 erentar1 https://wiki.minetest.net/Ore#Ores_overview
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14:21 FeXoR Hello dear miners o/
14:22 FeXoR Falling on a boat onto solid ground does not result in damage.I checked for a bug report on
14:22 FeXoR https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game
14:23 FeXoR But didn't find any open bug concerning this.
14:23 FeXoR Is that the correct place to report the bug in the first place?
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14:29 sfan5 yes
14:29 balirt why is your boat on solid ground anyway, sounds like you should fire the navigator
14:30 FeXoR Hehe :p
14:30 FeXoR Thanks sfan5 ;)
14:31 * FeXoR gets the feeling that if that gets fixed a lot of player will be sad x)
14:32 balirt is falldamage triggered by colliding with any physical entities?
14:33 balirt or can you jump 1000 blocks and land on a chicken
14:33 balirt I wonder whether "yes" or "no" would be the better option here
14:36 FeXoR You plainly cannot get damage by falling when mounted n a boat.
14:36 FeXoR (While that is a bold thesis dot having read through the code I tested this a lot. It's my preferred way of getting into a mine several thousand block below my home when no other means or teleportation is available;)
14:36 FeXoR *on
14:36 FeXoR *not
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14:59 swift110 does anyone here play minetest on a tablet?
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15:31 fedora117 No but I've played it on Android. Anything other than the desktop/laptop experience is terrible and I'd recommend just using a real computer.
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16:00 FeXoR Thanks for your swift reply sfan5 ;)
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16:23 bebebeko folks, i have many entities with nametags https://i.ibb.co/SwNF9Gn/screencast.png, how i can limit visibility for entity nametags  ?
16:24 bebebeko i mean, limit disatance for nametags visibility
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17:06 sfan5 hm I don't think that's possible
17:06 sfan5 unless you do it manually by hiding the nametag from Lua when no player is close
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17:09 freelikegnu !seen Sokomine
17:09 MinetestBot freelikegnu: sokomine was last seen at 2020-07-19 19:55:08 UTC on #minetest-hub
17:10 balirt who do I need to bribe to get a HUD API for animated_image, same as the formspec element
17:12 bebebeko sfan5: thanks, got it
17:12 balirt how many ounces of gold
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17:16 Krock balirt: 10 would be good, 40 if you're nice and 100 if it should happen within this decade without any further asking
17:17 Krock some code already exists, thus most of it will be copy&paste and wiring documentation for it
17:18 Krock though it might be possible to extend the currently existing image HUD element to specify the tiles count and delay
17:22 balirt that would be a price of 18k $ and at the end, I couldn't even rant about it anymore
17:22 balirt I'll think about it
17:24 Krock balirt: most changes are done by those who want it most due to their own motivation
17:24 Krock generally speaking
17:25 balirt I'll try my best, my first obstacle will be to find where formspecs are defined in the source
17:26 FeXoR Is this meant serious: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2710
17:27 balirt it can be only a matter of years until I'll make a horrible pullrequest
17:27 fedora117 Lol pay me $350 USD I'll get it done in 2 weeks
17:28 Krock balirt: src/gui/guiAnimatedImage.cpp
17:28 balirt too late, Krock showed me the code, it's all gonna be smooth sailing from now on
17:28 rubenwardy FeXoR: yes
17:28 Krock src/client/hud.cpp for the hud elements
17:28 balirt I'll compensate my lack of programming experience with unwavering enthusiasm
17:29 fedora117 lol
17:29 Krock that's a good approach
17:30 FeXoR May I request an audience with you rubenwardy? I do not want to spam this channel :p
17:30 Krock /query rubenwardy
17:30 fedora117 I honestly don't know why people don't have a bounty source set up for Minetest. We'd finally get stuff done.
17:30 freelikegnu commence hacking the matrix!
17:30 Krock there are bounties
17:30 rubenwardy sure, although I'm about to start cookin
17:31 Krock rubenwardy: install libpthread and you'll be fine with multitasking
17:31 FeXoR Oh, I just finished eating ;)
17:31 rubenwardy nahh,  std::thread
17:31 rubenwardy C++11, baby
17:31 Krock that's somewhat C++11 ish
17:31 rubenwardy std::thread actually uses pthread under the surface, on some platforms
17:31 Krock you still gotta link it with pthread to get it working
17:31 rubenwardy snap
17:32 Krock snap or flatpak
17:32 FeXoR And engine without a played game ... is quite worrisome IMO. There is the example of the Spring engine that comes to mind.
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17:33 Krock isn't Garry's Mod also just an engine, with some default content added to it?
17:33 freelikegnu looking forward to minetest with hudface
17:33 Krock freelikegnu: hudface? meshes in huds?
17:33 freelikegnu http://images.wikia.com/doomevil/images/6/6b/Face.png
17:34 FeXoR The older versions of the engine grant more featurs for the players because there at least the AI/Maps/Mods are still compatible with the engine.
17:34 freelikegnu meshes would be amazing
17:34 Krock oh no. I gave you more ideas
17:34 Krock +1 issue incoming
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17:34 FeXoR 95%is servers is a bit hard to ignore IMO...
17:34 freelikegnu remove the hard coded wield with hud meshes
17:35 Krock Minetest also had mobs in version 0.3.1 IIRC
17:35 Krock 2D-semi-animated rats and dungeon masters
17:35 Krock oerkki to
17:36 freelikegnu dont we already have animated sprite entities?
17:36 sfan5 yes
17:36 Krock https://wiki.minetest.net/Oerkki
17:36 freelikegnu and Little Otik too!
17:37 * FeXoR wishes successfull cooking and good appetite to rubenwardy ;)
17:37 rubenwardy The problem with MTG is that no one wants to develop it
17:37 rubenwardy it's a game that tries to stay neutral and satisfy everyone, but doesn't satisfy anyone
17:38 rubenwardy so the best approach is for it to be forked and developed unofficially so it doesn't suffer from politics
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17:40 fedora117 @rubenwardy what would you add to MTG to make it worth the effort?
17:40 FeXoR "doesn't satisfy anyone" How can you say that with 95%ish of the server using it? To me it seems that it's not a problem with MTG, it's a problem with people develope games for Minetest. They can do this right now ... yet still most use MGT at least as basis.
17:40 rubenwardy 95% of servers using it _with mods_
17:40 rubenwardy entering maintenance only mode still allows that
17:41 rubenwardy fedora117: well, progression is fairly broken - there's no point in tin and bronze, you can obtain iron and mese very quickly. The world is very bland, there's no mobs or anything interactive. It's missing a personality and _fun_
17:42 FeXoR (I definitely can understand that developing a "base game" can be somewhat a drag for development. But untill there is another game that actually can keep pace with faster engine development and has proven by being used more often, then, sure!)
17:42 balirt there's always a compromise between adding structured help (mapgen, items, inventory menu) to make the entry for modders as easy as possible, and staying neutral from the engine on the other side
17:42 balirt I think MTG's popularity shows that, while there might not be a right answer, the current compromise worked well up to now
17:43 rubenwardy MTG doesn't keep pace with engine development
17:43 rubenwardy it barely uses any newer features, because features already aren't being added
17:44 rubenwardy https://content.minetest.net/threads/235/#reply-502
17:44 FeXoR I see that leading to a similar situation like the spring engine faces: There are just a hand full of mods that run with the new engine and about 10 games happen there each day. There is only one mod left and that also contains a lot more bugs like say 10 years ago: Zero-K
17:45 rubenwardy we're already in a situation where MTG is stagnating, this decision won't change that much
17:45 rubenwardy the decision just confirms the reality
17:45 rubenwardy now, you can change the reality
17:45 rubenwardy but only if there are people willing to do so
17:45 FeXoR Yes, I understand that MTG doesn't get updated. But what game does that is played, say, by at least 10% of the users of the MT engine?
17:46 rubenwardy Minetest Game is a waste of my time because of the massive amount of effort it takes to do anything with it
17:47 rubenwardy as I said earlier, it should be forked to be developed further. There would be two games - one which is a base for modding and maintenance only, the other which actually has some personality
17:48 FeXoR So you aim for a less complete but easier to mod base game?
17:48 rubenwardy no, exactly the same as it is now
17:48 FeXoR ...and that will still be shipped and developed with the engine?
17:49 rubenwardy the eventual aim is for nothing to be shipped with the engine
17:49 FeXoR Sorry, wasn't reading fast enough x)
17:49 rubenwardy you have two users groups pulling Minetest Game in two directions. Splitting it into effectly two games - one for stability/modding, the other as a good base game - helps resolve that conflict
17:49 FeXoR And who will youse your well developed engine then?
17:49 FeXoR Where does your beleave in that game will be developed eventually come from?
17:49 rubenwardy modders and users, as always
17:50 rubenwardy the mainmenu will have a game launch screen where you can download Minetest Game, or any other game
17:50 FeXoR Like you can tell from MTG :D
17:50 rubenwardy well, it's not happening currently
17:50 FeXoR Ah, wait! There's another example: The flare engine!
17:51 FeXoR Yes, and what does make you beleave it will happen in the future? Oo
17:51 rubenwardy An alternative to this is to divorce Minetest Game from the engine
17:51 rubenwardy make it unofficial, get maintainers that aren't necessarily linked with core developers
17:52 rubenwardy doesn't necessarily need to be unofficial
17:52 FeXoR Then you lose the vast majority of player base ... even if only 1% or so can be brought to make meaningfull contributions to the engine or a game that's still not nothing!
17:52 rubenwardy just away from paramat, and less conservative
17:53 FeXoR Yea, I see...
17:53 freelikegnu hmm Flare needs a mod hub
17:53 balirt I guess that would solve the problem  of constantly-growing backwards-compatibility issues preventing engine change
17:53 balirt but there's a very good reason backwards compatibility is so treasured now, and its the majority of the userbase
17:53 rubenwardy another benefit of not packaging MTG with the engine is that it then doesn't need to be tied to engine releases. You can update from within the client, and release more often
17:54 FeXoR I whish you the best of luck.
17:55 rubenwardy MTG isn't working currently
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17:55 Corey[m] it's broken?
17:56 Corey[m] I didn't realize, but then again I run it from source
17:56 FeXoR Yes, so you have an engine that is not used or am I getting something wrong there? :D
17:56 rubenwardy there's NodeCore, IKEA, and MineClone2
17:56 Corey[m] Nah, I've been working on my own base game (NoKore), where I split up default into smaller mods
17:57 balirt he got a point though, if the engine can be developed aggressively AND someone gives users a decent base to jump from, that will be accepted by users as the new "standard"
17:57 Corey[m] so I expect my own stuff to be hella broken, but hearing that the shipped game is broken, is kinda eh
17:57 sfan5 balirt: the need for backwards compatibility doesn't go away with decoupling MTG
17:58 Warr1024 NodeCore I happen to know has very good backwards compat.  I spun up a world not long ago that was from the very early NodeCore era and it works just fine...
17:59 FeXoR I agree sfan5. The player base build up over years on servers is more interested in stability. (Sure at some point a not maintained engine will simply fail to build, too)
17:59 balirt I think that MTG could, in case of a split, if necessary or desired, stay on an old engine version...but you guys have been here longer and probably know better about that
18:00 balirt and if their engine REALLY fails they'll bite the bullet and update
18:00 Warr1024 People are interested in stability, but they're also very interested in heroin, as you can see from the market for it.  That doesn't necessarily mean that's people actually need though.
18:00 balirt look at sorcerykid and a lot of the core community guys here (devs included), that rebase old popular mods if there's just enough desire
18:00 Corey[m] I agree, divorce MTG from the engine and put it on LTS support (for those who need the stability), maintained by the community, then fork it and have an edge version (which isn't shy about breaking things)
18:01 Corey[m] it would be easier with an edge version to work side by side with engine development, so bugs are worked out before official releases
18:01 sfan5 games "staying" on an older version doesn't really make sense since games do not have the choice of which engine you run them with (and even if, you can connect with a 5.3 or future client to a 5.0 server)
18:02 freelikegnu even with "compatability updates" people still run old servers, seems almost pointless
18:02 specing FeXoR: Can you elaborate on the "There is only one mod left and that also contains a lot more bugs like say 10 years ago: Zero-K"?
18:02 specing the "left" part
18:02 rubenwardy How can we (core devs) facilliate the development of a community-led Minetest Game?
18:02 specing springrts can't really be compared to minetest apart from both having a lua api
18:02 freelikegnu rubenwardy: I dunno, let the community have more influence?
18:03 specing In springrts, you don't add addons to games like you do here in minetest
18:03 Warr1024 ruben: establish the bylaws and other framework around deciding what goes in or does not.
18:03 specing and in springrts, there is a lobby system ensuring that everyone has the correct engine version. There is no need for backwards compat
18:03 Warr1024 e.g. figure out how things like nomination and voting works, etc.
18:03 Corey[m] rubenwardy: Move it away from the minetest org, maybe create a new one called minetest-games, pick some volunteers from the community to lead that new org?
18:03 freelikegnu don't punish potential developers with rebase hell?
18:04 fedora117 bylaws will be a quick way to kill development. Just say you want high quality code only.
18:04 Warr1024 I'm thinking more along the lines of stuff like who gets a say in what happens with it and how and where people's voices will be counted.
18:04 freelikegnu well... its up to the Pr developer to keep their code current.. that was a little unfair
18:04 rubenwardy that's the problem with MTG
18:05 rubenwardy MTG devs required the craftguide mod to be rewritten, where the original mod is fine as-is
18:05 Warr1024 the problem with "community" is that figuring out who's part of it and who isn't is a big pain...
18:05 freelikegnu people who take time to make code and post a PR seem like people worth condsidering Warr1024
18:05 Warr1024 alternatively you could simply stop maintaining MTG as a game and establish it as an API specification only, and allow people to produce independent implementations of it that extend it in any way that isn't against the spec.
18:06 FeXoR specing: Do you mean there are other spring engine games played a lot? Or what is broken now that was not boken 10 years ago? (The second: The lobby is broken for me on both linux and windows and takes minutes to check for an update before even attempting to start. The unit motion was working fine (besides units pushed into terrain they couldn't pass) but now you have units that don't attack when attack moving...)
18:06 rubenwardy that's the idea behind the issue FeXoR posted
18:07 Corey[m] freelikegnu: That's a pretty low standard, I'd like to add, those who explain what their code does, what it solves, and why it's worth merging should be considered
18:07 Warr1024 It's really hard to design a system that isn't prone to some kind of abuse.  For example it would not be hard for me to make a PR to gain voting rights into MTG if that's the criteria.  On the other hand, it wouldn't be hard for a cabal of users to block future PRs from getting merged if having one merged is the criteria...
18:07 FeXoR (And the patrol order just breaks at a random point in time, the skirmish AI is quite suicidal, ...
18:07 Warr1024 the best way to do it might be just not to try and to let MTG fragment, and to use a spec to tie it all together instead.
18:08 Warr1024 thus if someone makes an MTG successor that becomes popular enough to control the "market" then they get to decide what the future of MTG is so long as they can maintain that position.
18:08 FeXoR No, specing, the spring lobby doen't only support one engine version. Shall I send you an actual screenshot of it? :D
18:08 freelikegnu Corey[m]: I agree but so many PR's get 95% of the way to merging then fall off the map
18:09 Corey[m] the other option is to have mod creators move away from MTG (primarily default as a dependency) and build smaller base systems that facillate function across different games
18:09 FeXoR Thanks a lot rubenwardy!
18:09 specing FeXoR: you are confusing yourself, I never said that it supports only one version. I said that it ensures that players have the correct one for the match that they want to play.
18:09 FeXoR You sound like you know what you are doing ;)
18:09 Warr1024 I suppose in a way that's what we already have, though, i.e. MTG is just one game among many already...
18:09 Warr1024 Making mods work across games, or at least having mod authors not limit themselves to a single game ecosystem, is really the way to go in the long run anyway
18:09 FeXoR Oh, sorry. I got that wrong specing :/
18:10 FeXoR What is the most common game used?
18:10 specing FeXoR: There are multiple other spring engine games played a lot, and many more actively developed.
18:10 FeXoR second*
18:10 specing FeXoR: I don't know, maybe open the actual lobby and check?
18:10 FeXoR I do, at least once a week ;)
18:11 specing and check the BA and BAR master servers as well
18:11 FeXoR Yes, I did ;)
18:11 FeXoR I like BA
18:11 specing good, so you know which the second most played game is
18:11 FeXoR But 10 years ago there where 100s of players every time of the day.
18:12 FeXoR Now there are maybe 20?
18:12 specing That is true
18:13 FeXoR I meant the second popular minetest game. Sorry for the confusion.
18:13 FeXoR (I just wanted to point out that some projects did basically desintegrate after decoupling the players to much from the core development)
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18:18 specing That has been my observation as well
18:18 specing I think that it happens once the engine/game developers stop playing the engine/game they develop
18:19 FeXoR Yea, that may actually have more impact than the players moving on from a game that develops in a way they might not like :p
18:20 FeXoR Mineclone2 and multicraft are both relatively commen according to the server list.
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18:28 fedora117 @rubenwardy What's stopped you from forking and developing that fork all these years? If it really is better server admins would just install your game by default and work on top of that, right?
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19:13 Lone_Wolf Quite a few of my mods have cross-game compat now. I'm also making an RPG game from scratch (Only borrowed `creative` from MTG), creating engine PRs for some of the things I don't want to work around.
19:14 Lone_Wolf If I could I probably would have borrowed a bunch of nodes from MTG, but all the code is tied together with a pretty restrictive license on top of it. It would be nice if there were a well-organized MIT-licensed base I could take from and do whatever I want with
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19:20 Extex Ok so I have a tool
19:20 Extex And it needs to break a specific in like 5 seconds
19:21 Extex It'll have a special group too
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19:33 Extex Also please ping me when you answer
19:34 sfan5 start a timer to break the tool in the inventory after it was used
19:34 sfan5 you can set some key in the itemstack meta to prevent players from dropping it after use (thus avoiding destruction)
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20:26 Exte Oof lag
20:26 Exte sfan5: well I kinda wanted to use groups and tools
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20:28 Extex Yay I'm Extex again lol
20:47 sfan5 is there something preventing you from implementing that with groups/tools?
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23:48 finnwww I'm not able to open Minetest on Crostini under Chrome OS. It just opens for a sec and then exits with the error "Quit message received". Anybody else have this problem?
23:52 SoylentCow i have a question about minetest forums: when i select pms and try moving them into a different folder or do any other action like delete, it says: The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
23:53 SoylentCow i can move messages one by one from within the message though
23:53 SoylentCow is that like a forum bug, or am i doing something wrong?
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