IRC log for #minetest, 2019-12-26

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01:10	a1fa	how do you get of a horse in mob_horse?
01:42	FriendlyPerson18	a1fa: I don't think a lot of play with that mod since it only currently supported for 4.x instead of the current branch.
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01:55	NathanS21	It's probably shift+rightclick
01:55	NathanS21	same as with the carts
01:56	NathanS21	Looks like just a right click works sometimes as well.
01:56	NathanS21	I assume you are using tenplus1's version of the mod.
01:57	NathanS21	also hi Friendlyperson
01:58	NathanS21	I got your message the other day, but you must close your IRC client, so I was never able to respond.
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03:12	a1fa	FriendlyPerson18: it works on 5.1
03:28	FriendlyPerson18	a1fa: It's does? I thought ContentDB said it only supports verisons lesser of 4.17?
03:31	a1fa	i tested it, and it worked.. just cant get off the horse unless you destroy it
03:56	FriendlyPerson18	a1fa: That's really odd, I don't know why ContentDB rated it for that. Unless because that'sthe sole reason since horses are basically useless with that "bug".
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20:24	Andrey01	why when I defined 'on_rightclick' callback for a node and then clicked it with a wielded item, does that wielded one not set the corresponding node?
20:24	Andrey01	the returning updated itemstack in on_rightclick also doesn`t help
20:35	VanessaE	on_rightclick is also called for the wielded item itsel
20:35	VanessaE	so you may have to have on_rightclick handlers in both the wielded thing and the target
20:42	Andrey01	hmm, what are on_rightclick handlers do I need to have?
20:43	VanessaE	just my term for the code you defined in the callback.
20:48	Andrey01	and also the item def doesn`t have 'on_rightclick' field. How can I then define any handler in it?
20:49	BuckarooBanzai	o/ VanessaE long time no see, what are you up to :)
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20:54	Andrey01	VanessaE
20:59	VanessaE	Andrey01: in that case, I'm wrong.
21:00	VanessaE	BuckarooBanzai: not up to anything of substance. just trying to get by.
21:01	Andrey01	but then how to solve that problem?
21:06	VanessaE	I don't know.
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22:45	Wuzzy	Time for random Internet drama!!! ?
22:46	Wuzzy	So what is the story behind MonTE48 and what happened that caused paramat to say they are the "second most unpleasant user"? o_O
22:47	Wuzzy	does MonTE48 appear in IRC?
22:48	rubenwardy	yes
22:48	rubenwardy	there's some disagreements between paramat and monte
22:48	rubenwardy	the height of which was here: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22725
22:48	rubenwardy	hmmm, big topic
22:49	rubenwardy	this was around the Sat Jun 15, 2019
22:49	rubenwardy	perhaps you should PM paramat/Monte for their sides rather than airing all of this in public?
22:49	Wuzzy	oh monte is probably Multicraft person?
22:49	rubenwardy	yeah
22:50	ronsor	multicraft
22:50	ronsor	sounds illegal
22:51	Wuzzy	why? just from the name?
22:51	rubenwardy	trademark law is mostly bullshit
22:51	Wuzzy	as far i remember its not illegal, or did i miss something?
22:51	rubenwardy	multicraft follows the law in terms of our license and copyright
22:51	rubenwardy	afaik
22:51	ronsor	isn't it on iOS?
22:51	Wuzzy	minetest is not trademarked anyway. and even if it were, it would be like the worst trademark ever ?
22:51	rubenwardy	oh right, except for that
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22:52	Wuzzy	well i'm not a huge fan of multicraft as well.
22:53	Wuzzy	speaking of license. what is the official policy regarding the server list?
22:53	Wuzzy	is there even one? ?
22:53	rubenwardy	what do you mean?
22:53	ronsor	that can't be licensed anyway
22:53	ronsor	it's simple information
22:53	rubenwardy	we mostly let server admins do what they want
22:53	Wuzzy	i mean, which servers will be kicked out from the server list?
22:53	ronsor	that is provided by the serverd themselves
22:53	ronsor	Wuzzy: uhh what?
22:54	rubenwardy	if they're found to be violating copyright and we're served a DMCA, we might have to ban them
22:54	rubenwardy	I'm not sure if that's even a legal obligation given we don't host the content
22:54	ronsor	I can't see you being served a DMCA for that
22:54	rubenwardy	yeah
22:54	Wuzzy	im pretty sure everything OC is banned for life, right? even on serverlist. and that is not copyright related at all
22:54	ronsor	linking to copyrighted material isn't even illegal afaik
22:55	rubenwardy	yeah, OC is the only person banned from the server list afaik
22:55	ronsor	who is "OC"?
22:55	Wuzzy	i believe you will never switch to P2P server list, right?
22:55	ronsor	DHT-based discovery?
22:56	ronsor	is there even a need for that?
22:56	rubenwardy	there's very little benefit
22:56	Wuzzy	well... less centralism = better. old hacker's wisdom
22:56	ronsor	the server list is the only centralized thing
22:57	rubenwardy	and ContentDB
22:57	Wuzzy	and GitHub ?
22:57	rubenwardy	git is decentralised
22:57	Wuzzy	GitHUBBBBB
22:57	rubenwardy	also gitlab.com/minetest/minetest
22:57	ronsor	just push to another repo
22:57	Wuzzy	but yeah git is not central.
22:57	ronsor	host
22:57	Wuzzy	you could just switch in a second to another host should microsoft turn ever turn evil (haha!)
22:58	ronsor	Microsoft hasn't been evil in some time now
22:58	rubenwardy	turn evil
22:58	Wuzzy	thats the joke ?
22:58	Wuzzy	ms is evil because proprietary. thats my simple take on this
22:59	ronsor	I don't see proprietary software as inherently evil. It's just capitalism.
22:59	Wuzzy	so ... Multicraft servers arent banned? interesting
22:59	Wuzzy	OH BOY. here we go again...
22:59	rubenwardy	MS is also evil because it exhibits monopolistic behaviour
22:59	Wuzzy	capitalism != proprietary
22:59	ronsor	rubenwardy: do they still?
22:59	rubenwardy	multicraft isn't banned because we haven't had a reason to ban them
23:00	ronsor	Wuzzy: it's not the same, but proprietary software is easiest to moneyize
23:00	ronsor	*monetize
23:00	Wuzzy	intellectual monopolies are always easiest to monetize, yes
23:01	Wuzzy	i dont deny that you can make a ton of $$$ with proprietay. that doesnt make it any better. my view.
23:01	rubenwardy	I've personally moved over to Gitlab, btw
23:01	ronsor	I use a private host
23:01	ronsor	Wuzzy: what about the web based model
23:01	rubenwardy	I'm considering homelabing it
23:01	ronsor	client's open source but you'll never see the server
23:02	Wuzzy	laugh at me i still use repo.or.cz
23:02	Wuzzy	and git.minetest.land
23:02	rubenwardy	I hate repo.or.cz
23:02	rubenwardy	it's a functional git host, but it misses the point
23:02	Wuzzy	the web interface is shit, but its just a git host, after all
23:03	Wuzzy	what if there's a git host without any web interface at all? just the raw experience? ? is it still hate-worthy?
23:03	rubenwardy	that would probably be better than repo.or.cz
23:03	Wuzzy	the web stuff is just a bonus tacked on top of it
23:03	Wuzzy	maybe it was a mistake to couple interface with git after all...
23:03	rubenwardy	a useful git host should allow you to collaborate affectively
23:03	Wuzzy	it would be better if both are completely decoupled.
23:04	Wuzzy	dont force users to use a particular interface
23:04	ronsor	I like having issues together
23:04	rubenwardy	maybe
23:04	ronsor	that and releases are all I care about outside of the actual git hosting
23:04	rubenwardy	but then wouldn't software like gitlab just be gitd + gitlab?
23:04	Wuzzy	i agree, a bugtracker is an absolute musthave
23:04	rubenwardy	like, gitlab itself is already an interface above a git server
23:05	Wuzzy	I just dislike that you depend 100% on a particular server just for a simple bugtracker and discussion
23:05	Wuzzy	not the smartest design choice, maybe
23:05	rubenwardy	I wish there was a nice standard for copying issues
23:06	rubenwardy	heh
23:06	Wuzzy	hmmm maybe it was mistake from the git people as well? ? they just developed git but ignored the bling bling interface. giving tons of people the chance to invent a million conflicting ways to track issues ?
23:06	rubenwardy	would also be nice to have a cross-host way of making merge requests
23:06	Wuzzy	yeah, issue compability is basically non-existant
23:06	ronsor	Wuzzy: OSS people aren't know for "user-friendly design"
23:06	rubenwardy	like, OStatus for pull requests
23:06	ronsor	rubenwardy: ActivityPub is the latest thing
23:06	ronsor	I've barely played with it though
23:06	Wuzzy	except import-export, but that doesnt really count imo
23:07	rubenwardy	which is the one that mastodon uses?
23:07	rubenwardy	thought that was OStatus?
23:07	rubenwardy	or was it ActivityPub
23:07	rubenwardy	there's one which is new and hip, the other one is old and removed from Mastodon
23:07	ronsor	ActivityPub is used by Mastodon
23:07	ronsor	OStatus is old and removed
23:07	Wuzzy	on the other hand, when i think about it
23:07	rubenwardy	but it would allow making pull requests (hey wuzzy.com, I have a branch at rubenwardy.com/a/b/#thing, plus make a tracker for it)
23:08	Wuzzy	it probably WAS a good decision to NOT add tons of interface bling bling to git itself
23:08	rubenwardy	then it would git remote add rubenwardy.com and do whatever it wants to alert wuzzy of the PR
23:08	rubenwardy	and then use activitypub to share comments and whatever
23:08	Wuzzy	because they then had to worry about a lot of OS ugliness (esp. gui)
23:08	rubenwardy	federated git UIs!
23:08	ronsor	federgit
23:08	Wuzzy	???
23:08	Wuzzy	why does ui need to be federated?
23:09	rubenwardy	sending pull requests, not the UI
23:09	Wuzzy	ah yeah
23:09	Wuzzy	so basically what do we need for the "full experience"
23:09	ronsor	Wuzzy: it's better we do it before the nodejs people get in
23:09	Wuzzy	basically only 3 things
23:09	Wuzzy	AHAHAHAHAHAA
23:09	Wuzzy	oh yeas
23:10	ronsor	or even worse... the PHP people
23:10	Wuzzy	nooooo. don'T say the P word!
23:10	rubenwardy	I wonder if you could make a Gitlab plugin to add this activitypub support
23:11	rubenwardy	https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/issues/30672
23:11	Wuzzy	so 3 things are needed for full experience: git, bugtracker, and discussion (including pull request)
23:11	Wuzzy	the sad thing is that the last 2 things currently depend on server software
23:11	Wuzzy	and if the server doesn't offer them (like repo.or.cz), you're out of luck
23:13	Wuzzy	so yeah, rubenwardy, i totally get why you hate on repo.or.cz. my tip: just ignore the website, look at the git repo ?
23:13	rubenwardy	basically what I do
23:13	Wuzzy	maybe i should even just link to the repo url (but I don't think that's possible. fun fact: repo url and web url are the same iirc)
23:13	Wuzzy	but hey! at least for mcl2 i moved to minetest.land
23:13	rubenwardy	web also contains /w/
23:14	Wuzzy	wiki?
23:14	rubenwardy	repo.blah/w/a/b/ vs repo.blag/a/b.git
23:14	rubenwardy	so, the former only works on www
23:14	Wuzzy	ah
23:14	rubenwardy	the latter works with both
23:14	Wuzzy	GitHub wiki sucks ?
23:14	rubenwardy	which is an issue
23:14	Wuzzy	(just a sidenode)
23:14	rubenwardy	I don't like github wiki tbh
23:15	Wuzzy	yes, right? guys, just use a REAL wiki instead. for real people. ?
23:15	Wuzzy	btw im not a huge fan of github issue system as well. too simplistic imo
23:15	Wuzzy	I absolutely loooove bugzilla ?
23:15	rubenwardy	the github wiki is git-backed at least
23:15	rubenwardy	I need to try bugzilla
23:15	rubenwardy	I'm disappointed with gitlab issues
23:16	rubenwardy	and github
23:16	rubenwardy	gitlab issues are better when you pay gitlab money
23:16	rubenwardy	which sucks
23:16	Wuzzy	because it actually contains one important thing: priority/severity. VERY useful if you have millions of bugs
23:16	rubenwardy	yeah
23:16	Wuzzy	(bugzilla)
23:16	rubenwardy	gitlab contains that too, but in a fairly weird way
23:16	rubenwardy	(you can set labels as having a special meaning of priority)
23:17	Wuzzy	and the sorting/seraching options are a GODSEND. in github you have to fight with this horrible horrible syntax
23:17	Wuzzy	yeah
23:17	rubenwardy	I actually like github's syntax, but wish the UI was better
23:17	Wuzzy	technically you can have prirotiy even in github, but its in a very painful and awkward way
23:18	Wuzzy	on the other hand, i have to admit, simplicity is a plus for the bug reporters
23:18	Wuzzy	because they generally shouldnt answer 100 questions in a compliicated form
23:18	rubenwardy	bug reporters shouldn't be able to set priorities
23:18	rubenwardy	https://rwdy.uk/G6WvE.png
23:19	Wuzzy	well they arent in bugzilla. but it depends on configuration iirc
23:19	Wuzzy	i agree, bug reporters don't set priorities. just tell us what the bug is. we do the rest. simple ?
23:20	Wuzzy	rubenwardy: so is this <bla>::<bla> syntax magic?
23:20	Wuzzy	as in “special meaning”?
23:20	Wuzzy	the quadruple colon, that is
23:20	Wuzzy	double colon? 4 points? ?
23:21	rubenwardy	you can only have one label which begins with X:: at a time
23:21	rubenwardy	so only one priority:: label
23:21	rubenwardy	it's stupid, I hate it
23:21	Wuzzy	thats all?
23:21	rubenwardy	yeah
23:21	rubenwardy	it doesn't make them a priority
23:21	Wuzzy	well thats not really useful ?
23:21	rubenwardy	you do that by clicking a star icon
23:21	rubenwardy	I'd prefer it to be a field in the label itself
23:21	Wuzzy	what do you get for $$$?
23:22	Wuzzy	or dont you even get proper priority/severity even for $$$?
23:22	rubenwardy	sprints, epics, user stories, ...
23:22	rubenwardy	time estimation
23:22	rubenwardy	I guess these are mostly things for businesses
23:22	rubenwardy	but being able to do epics would be useful
23:22	Wuzzy	time estimation you get in bugzilla for free, although i never use it ?
23:22	rubenwardy	do you know this terminology?
23:23	Wuzzy	sprint, as in Scrum?
23:23	rubenwardy	An epic is something like "Add client-side modding". Whereas a user story is an issue the client wants to see, like: "Add client-side lua environment", "Send client-side scripts from server to client"
23:23	rubenwardy	so I'd like epics to categorise other issues
23:24	Wuzzy	ah something like a category
23:24	rubenwardy	yeah
23:24	Wuzzy	or milestone
23:24	rubenwardy	milestone are about releases though
23:24	Wuzzy	and if you commpleted it, you can feel epic? ?
23:24	rubenwardy	lol
23:25	Wuzzy	hmmm not sure what the equivalent on bugzilla would be...
23:25	rubenwardy	the usual thing is - An epic has many user stories, a user story has many tasks, a task is at most 6 hours. You'd then pick up a task at a time and make a merge request for it
23:26	rubenwardy	user stories tend to be user focused, ie: a story of want they want to do, whereas tasks are developer focused
23:26	rubenwardy	this is agile/scrum/whatever
23:26	rubenwardy	I can't keep up with all the BS
23:26	Wuzzy	?
23:26	rubenwardy	I just want to be able to group issues cleanly
23:26	rubenwardy	I could just use labels tbh
23:26	Wuzzy	yeah, sprint, user stories, those are scrum words
23:27	Wuzzy	the word "epic" seems to be GitLab-specific, however
23:27	Wuzzy	never seen it in the wild
23:27	Wuzzy	maybe they just used that word because it sounds ... epic?
23:28	rubenwardy	epic is elsewhere
23:28	Wuzzy	bugzilla has "components" and "products"
23:28	rubenwardy	component being a subsystem?
23:28	Wuzzy	a "product" is basically a software (=Minetest) and a component is ... yes, a subsystem
23:28	rubenwardy	so in Minetest that would be GUI/Formspecs, Script API, ...
23:28	rubenwardy	right
23:28	Wuzzy	i think the definition isn't exact. you can define it to your liking after all
23:29	Wuzzy	but yes, using it for GUI, Scripting, mainmenu etc. makes most sense
23:29	Wuzzy	very very useful for large projects
23:29	rubenwardy	yeah
23:30	Wuzzy	i think milestone and epic still sound rather similar. only difference seems to be that one is linked to a release, the other is not. or did i get that completely wrong?
23:30	rubenwardy	although, I wonder whether pen and paper might be better for my personal projects
23:30	rubenwardy	yeah
23:30	Wuzzy	LOL
23:31	rubenwardy	I currently overuse boards a lot https://rwdy.uk/7Mifm.png
23:31	Wuzzy	well i love bugzilla but only use a small subset of its features. you don't need to use everything. e.g. i never used this time table thing
23:33	Wuzzy	I am not sure if I have ever seen REAL Scrum development in the wild. It's something that everyone seems to be just talking about it but nobody actually uses it. Most of the time "Scrum development" turns out to be some weird variant of it
23:33	Wuzzy	and i dont even know if Scrum, even if followed, would even work.
23:34	Wuzzy	Seems like "agile" is just a buzzword many many people are hyped about but nobody can really agree what it actually means, lol
23:35	Wuzzy	so yeah, I totally get why you "can't keep up with all the BS" ?
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