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| 10:03 |
deltasquared |
is there a way to adjust the camera offsets for minetest's 3D modes? I'm currently tinkering with some DIY head-mounted displays and have been trying out sidebyside mode with it. |
| 10:04 |
deltasquared |
for a 5" display panel it works quite well but at 7" the inter-pupil distance seems off. can't focus on it and keep seeing double. |
| 10:04 |
deltasquared |
(one could argue why don't I move the panel further away, well, I wanted the increased FOV...) |
| 10:10 |
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| 10:27 |
ANAND |
deltasquared: player:set_eye_offset might be of help to you |
| 10:34 |
deltasquared |
ANAND: I do believe that's just a singular camera. if I move it left/right it affects both views in a 3d mode. |
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ANAND |
Oh sorry, I misunderstood |
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| 12:10 |
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| 12:10 |
jas_ |
hi |
| 12:11 |
* jas_ |
is suddenly reminded of per-player fov overrides |
| 12:11 |
jas_ |
that got merged, right? |
| 12:12 |
jas_ |
i tried the android build of minetest, to see if 3d mode worked, and for my phone it did not. :( i wasn't super disappointed. if it did work, there could be a sub-game made specifically for VR mode. |
| 12:12 |
jas_ |
game* |
| 12:12 |
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| 12:15 |
ANAND |
jas_: Yes, the FOV PR has been merged |
| 12:15 |
deltasquared |
I think per-player FOV override was a bit of a mistake considering my use case above for instance... if the server can force change it, it would be somewhat disorienting for a player using a HMD to play the game. |
| 12:15 |
ANAND |
(yay :D) |
| 12:16 |
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| 12:16 |
deltasquared |
in that same sense, being able to yank a player's head around suddenly is also somewhat questionable |
| 12:16 |
deltasquared |
(even if only virtually) |
| 12:16 |
deltasquared |
I may have to patch that out of my client if I proceed with this HMD experiment. |
| 12:16 |
jas_ |
so that's a job for the mod, or game. that's why i suggested a VR-centric game |
| 12:17 |
jas_ |
the server really mandates all the examples you say, so. if the game doesn't suddenly jerk the player, all should be well. |
| 12:17 |
nepugia |
I don't think allowing such stuff to be set serverside is a good idea anyway |
| 12:17 |
jas_ |
like, why would you set mouse sensitivity server-side? |
| 12:17 |
jas_ |
why? you wouldn't. leave my FOV along! haha |
| 12:18 |
deltasquared |
to be fair, it's always a balance |
| 12:18 |
deltasquared |
I think if it's used to "scope in" on a weapon for instance, then fine |
| 12:18 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, yes, but such stuff doesn't make sense serverside either |
| 12:18 |
deltasquared |
however, there should be a user-side override for if the server decides to be a douche. |
| 12:19 |
ANAND |
nepugia: I'd agree with you, if SSCSMs were a thing :) |
| 12:19 |
nepugia |
alternatively, dont play on the server |
| 12:19 |
nepugia |
ANAND, sscms? i use spcms for server provided, i wonder what the ss stands for :P |
| 12:20 |
ANAND |
Server-sent |
| 12:20 |
nepugia |
and since csm exist spcsm shouldnt be that far away |
| 12:20 |
ANAND |
Means the same thing though :) |
| 12:20 |
nepugia |
indeed |
| 12:20 |
ANAND |
I really want to believe you when you say that it isn't far away :D |
| 12:20 |
deltasquared |
I think SSCSMs are a bad idea for separate reasons... |
| 12:20 |
deltasquared |
mostly to do with software freedom principles |
| 12:21 |
ANAND |
But I'm afraid no core dev does |
| 12:21 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, explain |
| 12:21 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: it's like javascript. I should have the right to not execute code that I do not wish to. |
| 12:21 |
nepugia |
well... you do in all instances, you control the code on your computer anyway |
| 12:22 |
deltasquared |
what I'm saying is that servers ought to be prepared for clients to refuse to execute SSCSMs. |
| 12:22 |
nepugia |
I wouldnt not implement spcsm just because one potential implementation could be shitty |
| 12:22 |
jas_ |
but some games (and hence servers) will depend on the presence of certain CSMs |
| 12:22 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, simple solution, kick the client :) |
| 12:22 |
jas_ |
and if they're not found, the server can then kick the player. |
| 12:22 |
nepugia |
some gamemodes will simply Not work without them |
| 12:22 |
ANAND |
^ |
| 12:22 |
deltasquared |
if that is the case, then so be it, but the user needs to have that choice |
| 12:23 |
nepugia |
sure |
| 12:23 |
jas_ |
have a choice as to whether to play the game? |
| 12:23 |
jas_ |
some aspects of any game are client-side |
| 12:23 |
ANAND |
Clients would be allowed to opt out of it, there's been discussion regarding this, IIRC |
| 12:23 |
nepugia |
some mods could work in a degraded mode i suppose |
| 12:23 |
deltasquared |
right, I have nothing against the server saying "then nope, you're out" |
| 12:23 |
nepugia |
still, more effort for modders :D |
| 12:23 |
ANAND |
But if SSCSMs are critical to the gameplay, the server could just kick non-conforming clients, as jas_ said |
| 12:23 |
deltasquared |
ANAND: I have no issue with this |
| 12:23 |
jas_ |
and nepugia, simultaneously heh |
| 12:24 |
nepugia |
I do need spcsm for some nicer UI anyway ... |
| 12:24 |
deltasquared |
if that becomes an issue it becomes a problem the game can't solve anyway, so it's beyond the scope of the game |
| 12:24 |
deltasquared |
(as in, mods requiring SSCSMs and the user objects, that's a design issue, can't fix that) |
| 12:24 |
jas_ |
the game is comprised of the mods |
| 12:24 |
jas_ |
why would the game not work with its mods? you're talking about a server operator? |
| 12:25 |
jas_ |
because if a server operator adds a non-comforming mod to their game, then that's that |
| 12:25 |
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| 12:25 |
deltasquared |
that's not to say I object to SSCSMs entirely - they have awesome potential. but the choice must be present. |
| 12:25 |
jas_ |
the choice is always present |
| 12:25 |
jas_ |
don't connect to the server, if you don't trust it |
| 12:26 |
jas_ |
but to be fair, there's like 500 options for disabling CSM |
| 12:26 |
jas_ |
and precisely zero for sending scripts to the client. |
| 12:26 |
jas_ |
talk about "should have a choice" hehe |
| 12:29 |
nepugia |
Garrys mod was nice :'( |
| 12:29 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: oh? did that have server side sent scripts? |
| 12:29 |
nepugia |
Indeed it did |
| 12:29 |
deltasquared |
once again don't get me wrong as a modder they have such awesome potential, not least being non-laggy custom tool logic and so forth |
| 12:29 |
nepugia |
you could check SERVER and CLIENT to check on which side you were on, and terminate accordingly |
| 12:30 |
nepugia |
I was about to implement a whole inventory system and looting system in gmod with a nice ui, and then those **** changed their EULA to a consumer-hostile bullshit license |
| 12:31 |
deltasquared |
by "those ****" I assume you mean facepunch studios? |
| 12:31 |
deltasquared |
(I don't live that far away from their offices...) |
| 12:31 |
nepugia |
also never seen so many spelling mistakes in a EULA |
| 12:31 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, <insult> :) |
| 12:31 |
nepugia |
Just a bit angry about it, you know... |
| 12:32 |
nepugia |
oh well, i reckon they will get problems with the GDPR with that EULA sooner or later |
| 12:34 |
deltasquared |
software freedom does seem to be a thing that riles up people who care about it. for good reason of course. (I myself just now had trouble containing myself on the SSCSMs issue. they're a bit of a double edged sword.) |
| 12:35 |
nepugia |
Well, they will have to be disabled-by-default at the start anyway, maybe use that as a setting? |
| 12:35 |
deltasquared |
as in, they would be opt-in initially? |
| 12:35 |
deltasquared |
first I heard of it... |
| 12:35 |
nepugia |
gmod had a nice thing that specified how much content you wanted to download from servers (from the source engine). with "map only" "sound and textures" and "all content" |
| 12:35 |
nepugia |
maybe minetest could do that similar, and possible with a per-server overide |
| 12:36 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, well, that is how you implement features no? :) |
| 12:36 |
nepugia |
on the develop branch i mean, i highly doubt that the first iteration will be that fun |
| 12:36 |
deltasquared |
right, so you could locally control the scripts that executed? pick your own version and be satisfied it Respects Your Freedom™? |
| 12:37 |
nepugia |
eh, i'd rather say execute this script or not, and then tell the server about it maybe? |
| 12:37 |
nepugia |
rewriting scripts is infeasible to verify on the serverside, and some server people are really scared of people cheating |
| 12:38 |
nepugia |
in any case, i do think that the boat here is different to javascript, because there it isnt at all required, here it kinda is, for some mods anyway |
| 12:41 |
deltasquared |
I personally would be fine if there was an option to allow me to use a local version of the script, which, funnily enough, is basically existing CSMs. but it appears that the core devs aren't willing to trust pure CSMs to the same degree. |
| 12:41 |
deltasquared |
which is BS, because that's the DRM fallacy. ultimately the client can send whatever it damn pleases, how it reached that conclusion is irrelevant |
| 12:43 |
nepugia |
I coded my gmod server mod with an api and dont trust clientside code, yeah, but allowing arbitrary csms is a different design |
| 12:43 |
nepugia |
it emphasises apis between server and client, rather than coherent mods in itself |
| 12:43 |
nepugia |
Gmod had a setting to allow csms on the server, and a setting for the client to refuse server code |
| 12:44 |
deltasquared |
the former seems a bit of a misfire. the client could always conceal the fact it runs CSMs. |
| 12:44 |
deltasquared |
(another thing I've always thought of doing if it became an issue) |
| 12:45 |
nepugia |
Well, yeah... but those are "evil hacked clients" you know? :) |
| 12:45 |
nepugia |
and valve thinks they can find people using those with their VAC anti cheat |
| 12:46 |
deltasquared |
there's another problem with SSCSMs as well... it forbids future alternate implementations. |
| 12:46 |
nepugia |
I sure am happy that i dont get banned on mt for "cheating" especially since i can trigger the "nep moved too fast" thing if i want |
| 12:46 |
deltasquared |
or at the very least significantly raises the barrier |
| 12:46 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, it does not |
| 12:46 |
nepugia |
that is just plain bs, js doesn't prevent new js from ebeing written either |
| 12:46 |
deltasquared |
like what if I want my own client written? at that point, code in the client is indistinguishable from CSMs, because at that point I could make it do whatever I like |
| 12:47 |
deltasquared |
(ok, now I am conflating server-sent and non-server-sent CSMs, but I still think my last point is important in itself) |
| 12:47 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, there is certain network traffic the client generates... and then those that the mods generate |
| 12:47 |
nepugia |
those are different, and are threated differently, even if you could generate all of them from C++ if you wanted |
| 12:48 |
nepugia |
and do your "what if i", i say "so what" |
| 12:48 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: again, if the server decides it will not serve me because of that, then again that is a problem that the game can't solve. that's a case of me complaining about my freedoms to the server op. |
| 12:48 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, .... any? |
| 12:49 |
nepugia |
i honestly dont see what you tried to respond to with that |
| 12:49 |
nepugia |
if you dont like a server dont play on it |
| 12:49 |
nepugia |
if you want to get code, /any/ code that makes the server what it is changed you have to complain any way |
| 12:49 |
nepugia |
regardless of whether it is gameplay specific or you just dont like how the code looks |
| 12:51 |
deltasquared |
no, it's a case of I'll play anyway and I'll disable what I don't like. if the server doesn't like *that* that's their problem. |
| 12:51 |
nepugia |
Not really no |
| 12:51 |
deltasquared |
assuming it's detectable for specific "I don't like X, that's turned off" |
| 12:52 |
nepugia |
whether your client becomes non-conformant or not doesnt change what the server sends |
| 12:52 |
nepugia |
and just plain kicking you for beeing non-conformant is an option |
| 12:53 |
nepugia |
also, if there /ISNT/ a nice way to just specify "this client doesn't like mods and will plug its ears" then modders will go through great lengths to try and detect that at runtime with bullshit in luaspace |
| 12:53 |
nepugia |
so to me, just specifying 'im out' is a lot better than trying anything else |
| 12:53 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: hence what I said about being detectable. a client could always fake acceptance of an SSCSM; if it's really important for gameplay, the onus is then on the server component to kick the player if they don't recieve some kind of packet they expect. |
| 12:53 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, then you just have to guard every network call, that sucks |
| 12:53 |
nepugia |
and you kick people for your own broken code |
| 12:53 |
nepugia |
in all cases, a bad solution |
| 12:54 |
nepugia |
so don't pretend to accept it if you dont |
| 12:54 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: you should be doing that anyway! don't trust the network. |
| 12:54 |
nepugia |
you just make the game worse for everybody :) |
| 12:54 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, no, freenode shouldnt ban me because i suspended the network |
| 12:54 |
nepugia |
laptop* |
| 12:54 |
nepugia |
they should timeout... gracefully |
| 12:54 |
nepugia |
you know, like minetest already does? |
| 12:54 |
deltasquared |
I meant guard every network call, not the kicking part |
| 12:55 |
nepugia |
you don't need to guard them really, unless you mean for bad data |
| 12:55 |
nepugia |
but that isnt modders domain anyway |
| 12:55 |
deltasquared |
more the general case of not trusting clients. |
| 12:55 |
nepugia |
that should have been done by the engine a long time ago |
| 12:55 |
nepugia |
Yes... but that doesn't have anything to do with server provided mods... |
| 12:56 |
nepugia |
honestly at this point i'd just say replicate exactly what gmod did and call it a day :P |
| 12:56 |
nepugia |
(well, not exactly, but that system worked just fine) |
| 12:57 |
deltasquared |
I think what I'm trying to get across, is that a) people may well do my suggestions above and b) not for nefarious reasons either, but rather because they value their software freedom. |
| 12:58 |
nepugia |
No, intentionally lying about your intentions isnt about software freedom |
| 12:58 |
nepugia |
If you dont like it simply dont execute it |
| 12:58 |
nepugia |
(and be kicked for it, if it is essential to have) |
| 12:59 |
jas_ |
you can do tons of stuff with lua modding to manage connections/clients/players |
| 12:59 |
jas_ |
plus server settings |
| 12:59 |
jas_ |
and manage the settings via lua too, which is also fun |
| 13:00 |
jas_ |
i dunno what you're trying to restrict, but i bet you can do it |
| 13:00 |
jas_ |
my favorite setting is `enable_strict_protocol_checking' or some such, i don't use it tho |
| 13:00 |
jas_ |
i use disable_anticheat = true, but i still see NoCheat stuff in the log, so i guess that's a separate thing |
| 13:01 |
jas_ |
and can act on it in minetest.register_on_cheat |
| 13:01 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: hmm. I guess at the end of it a mod "really" needing an SSCMS is again a design or possibly political problem. so I guess perhaps saying NAK to the server is better then. (assuming the choice is there, which it really should be.) |
| 13:01 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, just tell the server that "okay, then im out" |
| 13:01 |
jas_ |
mod's don't need server sent CSMs, the server does. |
| 13:02 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: I'd rather it be "I'm not going to do that, what are you gonna do about it" |
| 13:02 |
nepugia |
mark mods that /neeed/ clientside code as essentiall for that purpose and done |
| 13:02 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, why? it's plain capability checking |
| 13:02 |
nepugia |
if your client does not support the execution of essential clientside mods then it shouldnt connect |
| 13:03 |
jas_ |
if the server wants the client to run a script, it has to tell them the URL where to get it. there's no option for the convienence |
| 13:03 |
nepugia |
jas_, you what? |
| 13:03 |
jas_ |
the client user may want to click ok to download the script, instead of having to follow a url |
| 13:03 |
nepugia |
what are you even talking about |
| 13:03 |
nepugia |
minetest doesnt use https as a transport |
| 13:03 |
deltasquared |
jas_: I'm fairly certain SSCSMs would be sent the same way as current mod resources. |
| 13:03 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: so then it'd need to be either "this server has no CSMs", "this server has optional CSMs", or "this server has mandatory CSMs and gameplay will break otherwise". |
| 13:03 |
nepugia |
or /anything/ that has a valid URI scheme |
| 13:03 |
jas_ |
currently, if you - as a server - want a client to run a particular CSM, you have to direct them to it, and they have to download it |
| 13:04 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, yes |
| 13:04 |
nepugia |
jas_, no |
| 13:04 |
nepugia |
jas_, you just send it to them... |
| 13:04 |
jas_ |
SSCSM is sending the script automatically from the server to the client. this is for convienence |
| 13:04 |
jas_ |
you cannot |
| 13:04 |
nepugia |
yes, one can |
| 13:04 |
jas_ |
because this debate rages on |
| 13:04 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: that is the current situation. he's talking about what we have right now. |
| 13:04 |
deltasquared |
not what we're going towards with SSCSMs |
| 13:04 |
jas_ |
and the ability for the server to send scripts to the client for the client to execute simply does not exist |
| 13:04 |
jas_ |
at least, not in this reality |
| 13:04 |
nepugia |
We were talking about the situation that will be the entire time, why change the topic now... |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
sounds right in line to me |
| 13:05 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: don't look at me, maybe they think it'll never happen? |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
my point is, it's not a matter of paranoia. |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
it's a matter of convenience. |
| 13:05 |
nepugia |
there exists /NO/ way for csm and ssm to communicate at this time, so they mostly are pointless |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
yes there is |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
mod channels |
| 13:05 |
deltasquared |
actually I was working on that |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
!mod sneakjump csm |
| 13:05 |
MinetestBot |
jas_: There are no results for this query :( |
| 13:05 |
deltasquared |
(not mod channels, they suck) |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
hold on i made a mod for this |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
so? |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
they still qualify |
| 13:05 |
jas_ |
you said /NO/ way |
| 13:05 |
nepugia |
not really |
| 13:06 |
jas_ |
oh |
| 13:06 |
jas_ |
ok |
| 13:06 |
nepugia |
There is no way to specify that i need to talk to a clientside mod for the purposes of prediction and stuff |
| 13:06 |
nepugia |
for example, that certain code gets called /clientside/ for on_dig |
| 13:06 |
jas_ |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=22683 |
| 13:06 |
jas_ |
!title |
| 13:06 |
MinetestBot |
jas_: [csm] sneakjump 100 - Minetest Forums |
| 13:06 |
jas_ |
then there's a link to the SSM there, and they do indeed communicate |
| 13:07 |
nepugia |
and no, calling on_dig serverside to mod channels does not count, that just triples the latency (while in reality latency prevention was the goal here) |
| 13:07 |
jas_ |
it would be /nice/ if i could send the client script to the client, from the server |
| 13:07 |
jas_ |
that's all i'm saying, adding to the conversation |
| 13:07 |
jas_ |
thank you very much |
| 13:07 |
|
jas_ left #minetest |
| 13:07 |
nepugia |
That is only one tiny aspect of spcsm, and indeed a hard dependency |
| 13:10 |
deltasquared |
on a completely tangential topic, I wonder how far one could go with SSCMSs if they were restricted to something essentially like how bpf is used in the linux kernel right now... |
| 13:10 |
deltasquared |
provably halting and can't breach the host program because everything is statically checkable. |
| 13:11 |
deltasquared |
more of a security thing than a software freedom one in that case. |
| 13:11 |
deltasquared |
you'd be limited to hooks of the type "action happens -> produce response" though. |
| 13:12 |
nepugia |
Make a non-turing complete language if you want that i suppose |
| 13:12 |
nepugia |
i don't know bpf, i only know pf and that is a firewall |
| 13:12 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: bpf is more like a vm bytecode, so a language would be easier to write I suspect :) |
| 13:12 |
nepugia |
deltasquared, "cant break the host programm" is not something you can verify |
| 13:13 |
nepugia |
breach* |
| 13:13 |
deltasquared |
nepugia: not for turing complete programs, no. the kernel can do it for bpf so there is precedent. |
| 13:13 |
nepugia |
the kernel cant do it there either |
| 13:13 |
deltasquared |
well nobody has managed to break it so far... |
| 13:13 |
nepugia |
it can check it for /some/ cases |
| 13:14 |
nepugia |
but if anything all those nice spectre exploits show you that hardware may not behave in the way the code suggests/or intends to |
| 13:14 |
deltasquared |
I mean sure there will always be a bug at some point. I was getting at the fact that for normal programs it's intractable; for a specially designed non-turing-complete machine, it's merely hard |
| 13:14 |
nepugia |
non-turing complete stuff for some point would be interesting, for example exactly for prediction of node placement and such |
| 13:15 |
deltasquared |
oh yeah, for certain. it's the stuff it'd be good at. |
| 13:15 |
deltasquared |
hmmmm... I wonder if it'd be possible to generate an array containing mesh triangles from such a hook |
| 13:15 |
deltasquared |
(though that gets into trouble with loop checking I guess) |
| 13:17 |
deltasquared |
there's always the "easy" way of enforcing loop bounds. inject a timeout into the loop condition so that past N loops it is forced to stop with a failure return value. |
| 13:17 |
deltasquared |
getting into abstract CS here... |
| 13:18 |
nepugia |
i don't mind :P |
| 13:18 |
nepugia |
anyhow, nice discussion, i will try to get some time into my haiku patch now |
| 13:19 |
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| 13:20 |
deltasquared |
two things that always get me riled up... having to execute arbitary code someone else sent, and assuming that was already yielded, the potential security/sandboxing implications. :) |
| 13:20 |
nephele |
(but am still here, but from haiku yaaay) |
| 13:20 |
nephele |
security is hard |
| 13:20 |
nephele |
sandboxing is hard |
| 13:21 |
deltasquared |
aye, good job I don't have a day job doing that. I'd probably have thrown something by now. |
| 13:21 |
nephele |
Just throw linux namespaces at it and pray" they are kernel devs, surely that is secure" |
| 13:21 |
deltasquared |
unless it's user namespaces |
| 13:21 |
deltasquared |
"where is your god now" |
| 13:22 |
nephele |
try to derail any security discussion into a "why minix3 > linux" discussion or a "fuchsia > linux" discussion :P |
| 13:22 |
deltasquared |
bah, linux > any of those on hardware support grounds and therefore actually getting used. >:D |
| 13:23 |
nephele |
But but haiku runs on /my/ computer :) |
| 13:23 |
nephele |
surely it will be the bestest soon(tm)... like with hardware acceleration :D |
| 13:24 |
nephele |
Although... nothing but linux runs on my laptop, and still provides me with backlight control :( |
| 13:24 |
nephele |
With errm, sensitive eyes that is a bit of a problem :) |
| 13:28 |
deltasquared |
to solve my original question from earlier about inter-pupil distance, I'm considering buying a purpose built HMD instead which can be adjusted... |
| 13:29 |
deltasquared |
turns out you can get the htc vive HMD alone (no controllers etc) for about 100 bucks or so |
| 13:29 |
deltasquared |
as I don't have neither the playspace nor games supporting tracking input, this is not a problem for me :) |
| 13:32 |
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| 13:34 |
nephele |
the valve index can adjust the pupil-distance |
| 13:34 |
nephele |
with a hardware dial i think |
| 13:36 |
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| 13:36 |
deltasquared |
nephele: it's newer though, so I wouldn't have much look getting just the HMD unit. |
| 13:36 |
deltasquared |
*luck |
| 13:37 |
deltasquared |
like discounted. |
| 13:37 |
nephele |
You can get just the unit sure, but discounted i do doubt it too :D |
| 13:37 |
nephele |
(why would anyone want to sell valve hardware? :P /s) |
| 13:39 |
Ingar |
maybe the Epic store will get hardware and give it away for free |
| 13:41 |
nephele |
lol |
| 13:41 |
deltasquared |
nephele: according to the ifixit teardown, the htc vive's headset also is a mechanical adjust |
| 13:41 |
deltasquared |
just a threaded rod with a knob. simples |
| 13:41 |
nephele |
I mean, it has to be mechanical at some point :D |
| 13:42 |
deltasquared |
aye, I was checking it wasn't some dumb software driven system is all |
| 13:42 |
deltasquared |
seeing as I'll be using it on linux with pretty much nothing aware the display is special |
| 13:43 |
deltasquared |
(well, bar minetest in sidebyside mode...) |
| 13:43 |
nephele |
I mean, at some point it has to have a motor to do the physical moving :) |
| 13:43 |
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| 13:43 |
deltasquared |
nephele: no motors in the vive, all manual adjust |
| 13:43 |
nephele |
can always try to hijack that |
| 13:44 |
deltasquared |
including one for adjusting the distance the lenses are from the eyes, which is neat |
| 13:44 |
nephele |
deltasquared: ah, well if it was software you could still hijack motors :D |
| 13:44 |
deltasquared |
nephele: I'd rather not hack it if need be, I'd rather it just works as dumb hardware for now. |
| 13:44 |
nephele |
yeah |
| 13:45 |
CWz_ |
hey deltasquared |
| 13:45 |
deltasquared |
seems according to thit at least http://doc-ok.org/?p=1763 , it just appears as a regular display to xrandr for instance. |
| 13:45 |
deltasquared |
(that example uses nvidia binary drivers but the principle should be the same.) |
| 13:45 |
nephele |
it is just a regular display :/ |
| 13:45 |
deltasquared |
nephele: well actually it's two, just made to look like one |
| 13:45 |
deltasquared |
I needed to check there wasn't weirdness there too |
| 13:46 |
nephele |
X11 does that too, so whatever ;) |
| 13:46 |
nephele |
Probably better that the software there does it rather than X11, i always get terrible overlaps in X11 (like window decorations on the other monitor and stuff) |
| 13:46 |
MinetestBot |
[git] programmerjake -> minetest/minetest: Fix unwanted detaching when damage = 0 7603215 https://git.io/JeCqA (2019-10-05T13:45:05Z) |
| 13:46 |
deltasquared |
nephele: that's one desktop across two screens, not two physical oled panels made to look like one screen. :P |
| 13:47 |
deltasquared |
that's a point... the display is oled. I will have to be very careful |
| 13:47 |
deltasquared |
no chat or HUD elements at all |
| 13:47 |
deltasquared |
else I'll get burn-in o.o |
| 13:47 |
deltasquared |
rip me |
| 13:47 |
nephele |
You worry too much about burn in :D |
| 13:47 |
deltasquared |
still, I'd rather not push it |
| 13:47 |
nephele |
but if you want, just make it wobble a bit if you move around |
| 13:47 |
nephele |
valves index doesn't have oled |
| 13:47 |
deltasquared |
to be fair I find the hotbar and chat to look distracting in 3d mode |
| 13:48 |
nephele |
i do like oled though |
| 13:48 |
deltasquared |
they always appear at a fixed distance so it looks wrong |
| 13:48 |
nephele |
deltasquared: probably want something like a hotbar attached to your hand or something |
| 13:48 |
nephele |
vr stuff yay |
| 13:48 |
deltasquared |
nephele: that's what minecraft vr does IIRC. |
| 13:48 |
nephele |
thats what most vr games do |
| 13:48 |
deltasquared |
nephele: yeah, but I was thinking of the closest example. :P |
| 13:48 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Warr1024 -> minetest/minetest: Merge pull request #8166 from Warr1024/fix7020 ad96df1 https://git.io/JeCqp (2019-10-05T13:46:57Z) |
| 13:48 |
nephele |
but a HUD in a "you are in a helmet" sort of fashion would be fun |
| 13:48 |
deltasquared |
(comparing minecraft to minetest, I have committed sin father) |
| 13:49 |
nephele |
yeah, one is good, and the other is gpl |
| 13:49 |
nephele |
:P |
| 13:49 |
deltasquared |
careful, you'll get hit by thunder for that! xD |
| 13:50 |
nephele |
I wanted to read up on BMessage anyway |
| 13:53 |
deltasquared |
nephele: ... ah, they're samsung amoled panels! ok, that makes me relax a little |
| 13:53 |
deltasquared |
I've had my s5 for ages with an amoled panel and it's never had burn-in, despite constant persistent UI elements from android |
| 13:54 |
deltasquared |
it's about smartphone density as well. ~440dpi. |
| 13:58 |
nephele |
I liked my S5 |
| 13:58 |
nephele |
sadly i destroyed it, oh well |
| 13:59 |
nephele |
Personally i dont want a htc vive because the pixel density is too little for my taste |
| 13:59 |
nephele |
tried it at a demo once |
| 13:59 |
nephele |
asked whether it was the low-res dev kit, was told that it was the consumer one :/ |
| 14:00 |
deltasquared |
nephele: it's denser than the current display I'm using in a google cardboard compatible headset. that one only gives me 400x480 per eye, and I can't even see all of it. |
| 14:01 |
nephele |
that it is i suppose |
| 14:01 |
nephele |
but for me either way a reason not to have a vr headset atm |
| 14:01 |
nephele |
i do hope that valve index will be to my satisfaction, but i would want to try that before buying it too :) |
| 14:03 |
deltasquared |
what do you think of the index controllers? assuming linux would at least be able to read the input data, I think that idea is dope. |
| 14:03 |
deltasquared |
I'd like to know how exactly it senses fingers. |
| 14:03 |
nephele |
I like the design, wanted to buy one of those 8 years ago... there were similar ones before |
| 14:04 |
nephele |
but those looked more like borg hands than the sneaker valve one with laser tracking, and didnt have any sense of pressure |
| 14:04 |
nephele |
I lost the link to time though :( |
| 14:05 |
nephele |
(also lost a link about how to properly do multitouch form like 15 years ago, and that is much better than current multitouch... but that video had like 300 views so finding it again will be difficult... :( ) |
| 14:09 |
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| 15:15 |
* deltasquared |
puts in the order for the htc vive HMD |
| 15:15 |
deltasquared |
fingers crossed... |
| 15:16 |
VanessaE |
fun/ |
| 15:16 |
deltasquared |
hey VanessaE |
| 15:17 |
VanessaE |
hi |
| 15:32 |
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| 15:38 |
jluc |
’ |
| 15:38 |
jluc |
je pige pas : |
| 15:38 |
jluc |
le filedset de saisie de l'url d'un forum est en display:non |
| 15:39 |
jluc |
mais ça saisit qd mm une valeur (saisie, bien avant, dans un autre formulaire) |
| 15:39 |
jluc |
je pense que c'est l'autocomplétion des formulaires par un plugin chrome |
| 15:39 |
jluc |
mais dans la console |
| 15:40 |
jluc |
document.getElementById('url_site') |
| 15:40 |
calcul0n |
heu, t'es sur d'être sur le bon chan ? :) |
| 15:41 |
jluc |
ah non zut |
| 15:41 |
jluc |
dsl |
| 15:45 |
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| 15:46 |
Krock |
jluc: il y a un channel français -> #minetest-fr |
| 16:08 |
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| 16:17 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Fix warnings in guiButton.h dde0628 https://git.io/JeCOf (2019-10-05T16:15:26Z) |
| 16:32 |
nepugia |
Is there a technical reason why textures only allow a restricted charset in their names, and have to have a file extension? |
| 16:34 |
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| 16:36 |
Calinou |
nepugia: maybe so Irrlicht can detect their type? I don't know |
| 16:36 |
Calinou |
(also, why is this an issue?) |
| 16:37 |
Calinou |
it's considered good practice to make files have an extension and restrict their names to a sane charset for compatibility |
| 16:37 |
nephele |
that might explain the second restriction but not the first :) |
| 16:37 |
nephele |
compatibility with what? MS-DOS? |
| 16:37 |
Calinou |
many, many applications which don't handle spaces and special characters well |
| 16:37 |
Calinou |
including on Linux |
| 16:37 |
Calinou |
even uppercase characters can be troublesome if you're not strict, due to Windows case sensitivity |
| 16:37 |
nephele |
If apps don |
| 16:38 |
nephele |
't support utf-8 they should be fixed :/ |
| 16:38 |
nephele |
Linux also has case sensitivity if you want |
| 16:38 |
nephele |
but uppercase chars arent banned |
| 16:38 |
nephele |
but instead for example : is banned, |
| 16:39 |
Calinou |
I meant case insensitivity |
| 16:39 |
nephele |
which i discovered only after having trouble for like half an hour to figure out why my textures werent working |
| 16:39 |
nephele |
Calinou: yeah, ext4 has that too, optionally |
| 16:39 |
Calinou |
":" isn't allowed on Windows, which is probably why |
| 16:39 |
Calinou |
that bit me a few times already |
| 16:39 |
nephele |
it isn't? |
| 16:39 |
Calinou |
yeah |
| 16:39 |
nephele |
I thought only \ wasn't allowed huh |
| 16:40 |
sfan5 |
no that's on linux |
| 16:40 |
nephele |
no, / is on linux |
| 16:40 |
sfan5 |
well you get what I mean |
| 16:40 |
Calinou |
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1976007/what-characters-are-forbidden-in-windows-and-linux-directory-names |
| 16:40 |
sfan5 |
windows has problems with many more, namely: * . " / \ [ ] : ; | , |
| 16:41 |
sfan5 |
though I'm not sure [] should be in that list(?) |
| 16:41 |
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| 16:41 |
nephele |
Wouldn't it make most sense to ban solely the offending characters? |
| 16:41 |
nephele |
Also file extensions are annoying because i may want to have my textures be .png files, but someones texture pack may choose another format |
| 16:42 |
nephele |
And windows supports files without extensions just fine, so i dont really see any issues there for compatibility |
| 16:42 |
Calinou |
I think texture packs detect alternate extensions automatically, or I thought they did |
| 16:42 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 16:42 |
Calinou |
well, the issue is that on Windows, it will ask you which application should be used to open the file *every time* |
| 16:42 |
Calinou |
it's not MIME type-aware, unlike other OSes out there |
| 16:43 |
nephele |
maybe macos? linux usually just goes searching for magic :P |
| 16:44 |
nephele |
I wonder if dofile() refuses to read files that are invalid on windows too |
| 16:44 |
rubenwardy |
If you miss out the extension in minetest, it detects it automatically |
| 16:45 |
nephele |
rubenwardy: that isnt my file name though, that to me is a wierd inconsistency |
| 16:45 |
rubenwardy |
Lua does the same thing |
| 16:45 |
rubenwardy |
As does python |
| 16:45 |
rubenwardy |
Inferring extensions |
| 16:45 |
nephele |
what? |
| 16:46 |
nephele |
It just opens a different file? |
| 16:46 |
rubenwardy |
require("a") could be a.lua or a/init.lua |
| 16:48 |
nephele |
eh, that seams wierd.... |
| 16:48 |
nephele |
i would expect that to open a file called a (assuming that require opens files) |
| 16:51 |
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| 16:51 |
`ani` |
this is shit? |
| 16:52 |
Krock |
no |
| 16:52 |
Krock |
this is Patrick |
| 16:53 |
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| 16:53 |
Krock |
relevant http://images.wikia.com/cardfight/images/8/85/No-This-Patrick-Meme-Template.jpg |
| 16:53 |
* nepugia |
digs out this is patrick sparta remix |
| 17:20 |
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MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest_game: Use background9 for backwards compatibility 1c413ed https://git.io/JeC33 (2019-10-05T15:55:42Z) |
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| 20:57 |
kurtzmusch |
are there any attempts at making underliquids nodes? |
| 20:57 |
kurtzmusch |
i was browsing through the issues tagged 'feature request' and couldnt find any |
| 20:57 |
kurtzmusch |
was there any attempt at doing this? |
| 20:58 |
kurtzmusch |
example: a stair node without an air bubble |
| 21:02 |
calcul0n |
the v5 has underwater plants which seem to do that |
| 21:02 |
calcul0n |
no idea how they are implemented though |
| 21:08 |
kurtzmusch |
in a hacky way |
| 21:15 |
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| 21:15 |
Pie-jacker875 |
hey would it be useful for anyone here to know that I get like <10fps on my RX 5700 XT |
| 21:16 |
Pie-jacker875 |
performance was fine on my R9 390 |
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| 22:25 |
hisforever |
Hi I have my own internet connection now. for a screenshot in Mt. is there a way to haide the inventory slots? |
| 22:26 |
kurtzmusch |
F1 |
| 22:26 |
kurtzmusch |
or some F key |
| 22:26 |
kurtzmusch |
i dont remebmer wich |
| 22:27 |
hisforever |
Kurtzmusch: thanks |
| 22:28 |
hisforever |
it was f1 my friend |
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