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MinetestBot |
[git] rubenwardy -> minetest/minetest: Update credits (#8162) 568540f https://git.io/fh5mU (2019-02-16T00:41:30Z) |
| 00:44 |
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p_gimeno |
I went to try the valleys mapgen and it placed me at the bottom of a lake. Not a very nice start :) |
| 01:59 |
* p_gimeno |
tries again with the same seed |
| 02:00 |
p_gimeno |
yup, reproducible. Seed = 12343. |
| 02:32 |
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| 02:40 |
p_gimeno |
I like valleys. It reminds me of paramat's riverdev. Is it the only built-in mapgen that creates river water? |
| 03:00 |
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| 03:03 |
paramat |
hm thought we'd fixed valleys spawn, testing |
| 03:03 |
paramat |
yes the only one with sloping rivers and river water |
| 03:14 |
p_gimeno |
it's nice |
| 03:15 |
paramat |
i have a rewrite PR for valleys, maybe that will fix the spawn bug |
| 03:15 |
p_gimeno |
thanks, will check tomorrow |
| 03:17 |
paramat |
confirmed |
| 03:19 |
paramat |
(the spawn bug that is) |
| 03:19 |
paramat |
testing my rewrite ... |
| 03:19 |
Ruslan1 |
paramat i know Violet_T got kick |
| 03:22 |
p_gimeno |
still drowning |
| 03:22 |
paramat |
yes PR has bug |
| 03:22 |
paramat |
however, rare and the mapgen is officially unstable, so not a blocker |
| 03:23 |
p_gimeno |
it's OK, I was just letting you know |
| 03:23 |
paramat |
will attend to it though |
| 03:29 |
Ruslan1 |
paramat hi |
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| 14:28 |
kaeptmblaubaer |
Why do I always get an error message when trying to write in #minetest-hub |
| 14:28 |
kaeptmblaubaer |
"#minetest-hub: Cannot send to nick/channel" |
| 14:31 |
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| 14:32 |
Krock |
you need an account to talk there |
| 14:32 |
Krock |
and voice |
| 14:35 |
kaeptmblaubaer |
I have an account AFAIK |
| 14:36 |
kaeptmblaubaer |
If you mean freenode password |
| 14:36 |
kaeptmblaubaer |
btw Krock why is autocomplete hard because of me |
| 14:36 |
kaeptmblaubaer |
I didn't hack it or such |
| 14:37 |
Krock |
kaeptmblaubaer: because I wanted to autocomplete "kaeza", instead your name popped up first :P |
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kaeza |
You hacker you! |
| 17:02 |
kaeza |
Greetings. |
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| 18:22 |
galaxie |
For signs_lib, is there a limit to how many lines I can input? It appears to crop out after 5 or so lines. |
| 18:22 |
galaxie |
Like when you mouse over the sign. |
| 18:32 |
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Elon_Satoshi |
Calinou: why did you stop working on carbone NG |
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| 18:49 |
Calinou |
it eventually lagged behind minetest_game and I lost interest in playing Minetest (and Minecraft-style games in general), sorry :( |
| 18:49 |
Calinou |
minetest_game also became better lately |
| 18:50 |
Edgy1 |
Can anyone explain this error please?: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/VtUIPjsPnXBTW0HNJGTSSA |
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| 19:13 |
jas_ |
you cannot concatenate a nil value, i suppose. |
| 19:13 |
jas_ |
did you put the wrong skin in? |
| 19:13 |
jas_ |
i dunno these mods, are you trying to make modifications to these mods? or your own mod? or just a crash from regularly using these mods? |
| 19:14 |
jas_ |
i cannot explain it. |
| 19:14 |
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| 19:54 |
cheapie |
Edgy1: Well, I've never heard of this "u_skins" mod, but it looks like it's a bit broken :P |
| 19:54 |
cheapie |
...also, that's the longest I've ever seen a pastebin take to load. |
| 20:02 |
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| 20:05 |
Edgy1 |
lol |
| 20:05 |
Edgy1 |
cheapie, you never heard of u_skins? |
| 20:05 |
cheapie |
Nope, all the servers I play on use player_textures. |
| 20:05 |
Edgy1 |
wow lol |
| 20:05 |
Edgy1 |
most servers today use uskins with unified inventory |
| 20:06 |
Edgy1 |
all of mine except amhi do |
| 20:06 |
Edgy1 |
also i fixed it a bit, i think its working now |
| 20:08 |
MinetestBot |
[git] pauloue -> minetest/minetest: Fix profiler crash by builtin since eea1fda (#8239) 291b244 https://git.io/fh5RN (2019-02-16T20:06:04Z) |
| 20:13 |
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| 20:24 |
sveta |
I'm trying to write English Wikipedia article about minetest at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Minetest, they have issues with notability - looking for published books and reviews or otherwise external sources about it. Those seem not readily available. Any hints? |
| 20:27 |
jluc |
minetest is inccredibly underground |
| 20:28 |
jluc |
considering how nice it is as a piece of software |
| 20:29 |
jluc |
you can provide links to minetest official site and forums and other sites sveta isnt ? |
| 20:32 |
jluc |
not clear why references are lacking |
| 20:32 |
jluc |
Best would be to ask that heliosxeros watchdog sveta is that possible ? |
| 20:34 |
jluc |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Heliosxeros |
| 20:40 |
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MinetestBot |
[git] NathanSalapat -> minetest/minetest_game: Fix sfinv hotbar offset b92f743 https://git.io/fh506 (2019-02-16T20:51:33Z) |
| 20:55 |
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| 21:08 |
sveta |
jluc: ok :) |
| 21:09 |
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| 21:18 |
MinetestBot |
[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Kelp, coral sounds: Add missing 'footstep'. Use quiet 'dig', 'dug' 1ca25ee https://git.io/fh5Eq (2019-02-16T21:18:01Z) |
| 21:19 |
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| 21:27 |
paramat |
MT is often reviewed by websites as one of the best open source games. it's also being used by CERN |
| 21:28 |
* cheapie |
hopes CERN isn't using it to control their particle accelerators or whatever |
| 21:29 |
paramat |
heheh |
| 21:30 |
Xiong |
Has anyone a use case for digilines you'd like to share? I'd like to hear several in brief rather than dissect one. |
| 21:30 |
jluc |
i guess references are needed paramat |
| 21:31 |
cheapie |
Xiong: Like for in-game stuff, right? |
| 21:31 |
jluc |
do you have links stating that CERN is using minetest ? or reviews of minetest ? |
| 21:32 |
paramat |
https://github.com/CERN/CTW |
| 21:32 |
Xiong |
,99cheapie,99, yes. Anything you've built ingame on digilines. |
| 21:33 |
paramat |
MT was best game (somehow) for a popular open source web magazine but can't yet find it |
| 21:33 |
jluc |
did you read that sveta about CERN ? |
| 21:33 |
cheapie |
Xiong: Traffic light controllers, that tic-tac-toe machine, "minetest in minetest", factory automation, bouncing DVD logo, "microwave", digilines noteblock music... |
| 21:34 |
jluc |
that might be in the wikipedia page paramat |
| 21:34 |
jluc |
it says "Opensource.com listed Minetest as one of five best open-source games in 2015" |
| 21:35 |
Xiong |
"minetest in minetest"? |
| 21:35 |
cheapie |
Xiong: A 2D "minetest-like" (barely) block-building game I built inside MT. |
| 21:35 |
cheapie |
Uses an rgblightstone screen, controlled by a Luacontroller via digilines. |
| 21:36 |
Xiong |
Okay. |
| 21:36 |
Xiong |
"microwave"? |
| 21:36 |
paramat |
this might be it https://opensource.com/life/15/12/top-5-open-gaming |
| 21:36 |
Hawk777 |
Xiong: not built yet but on the TODO list: Luacontroller tracks contents of a Digilines chest, when running low on something, sends messages to Lua-controlled Pipeworks tubes to set up a route for items to be sent through a reconfigurable factory to build more of the thing and deliver them to the chest. |
| 21:37 |
cheapie |
A thing that looks like a microwave, and the buttons all work. It'll count down, beep, etc. but not actually cook anything :P |
| 21:37 |
paramat |
so yes that's it |
| 21:37 |
Xiong |
Interesting, 7,99Hawk777,99. |
| 21:38 |
paramat |
although it's 'the' best, number one |
| 21:38 |
cheapie |
Xiong: Here's the "Minetest" thing: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20190216_153733.png |
| 21:38 |
cheapie |
The player is the green dot and the blue is the "sky" :P |
| 21:38 |
Xiong |
Not to slight you, ,99cheapie,99. I do tend to focus on manufacturing. |
| 21:39 |
cheapie |
I've done some manufacturing, but not much as I tend to play on creative servers. |
| 21:39 |
cheapie |
I do have one machine that grows ingredients for pies (from bushes) and cooks them on demand, though, using digilines to configure an autocrafter, drive a touchscreen, and a few other things. |
| 21:40 |
Xiong |
... and I see you've built a keyboard/controller.... |
| 21:40 |
cheapie |
Those buttons are from digistuff: https://cheapiesystems.com/git/digistuff/ |
| 21:41 |
cheapie |
Digistuff adds digilines buttons, "cameras" (fancy player detectors), a dimmable light, noteblock, control panel, touchscreen, piezo beeper thing, piston, and touchscreen. |
| 21:41 |
cheapie |
Also a few other miscellaneous things. |
| 21:41 |
Xiong |
,99cheapie,99, 7,99Hawk777,99; thank you. I'll tell you why I ask, if you like. |
| 21:42 |
cheapie |
Sure :P |
| 21:43 |
Xiong |
I want to see what people do with digilines because I'm unhappy with it. Where's the friction? Where do our ideas align? |
| 21:44 |
cheapie |
What makes you unhappy with it? |
| 21:45 |
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| 21:45 |
Xiong |
Um... maybe my reactions are rooted in habits of thought carried over from real-world engineering. |
| 21:46 |
cheapie |
That's fine, I've never done this sort of stuff IRL so it's interesting to hear what people have to say about it. |
| 21:46 |
Xiong |
Ah... not easy to put in words. One reason I asked: trying to firm it up in my own head. |
| 21:46 |
Hawk777 |
I’m curious to hear what you dislike about it too. |
| 21:47 |
cheapie |
I will admit that the digilines mod by itself just provides (aside from the communication) a few lackluster peripherals and not much else, but that's why other mods exist to add more. |
| 21:47 |
Xiong |
,99cheapie,99, I don't want to offend... but... the game-within-game.... |
| 21:47 |
cheapie |
I know the game-within-game thing is crap, it was a proof of concept :P |
| 21:48 |
Xiong |
7,99Hawk777,99, I should explain better |
| 21:48 |
Xiong |
-- oh, I'm impressed! |
| 21:49 |
cheapie |
Ehh, you'd be less impressed if you tried actually using the controls :P |
| 21:49 |
cheapie |
On a somewhat more practical note, these traffic lights all use digilines: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20190216_154901.png |
| 21:50 |
Xiong |
The proximate cause of my disquiet was seeing that digilines revolves around the mesecons luacontroller. I was hoping digilines had its own controller. I have always detested mesecons and its controller especially. |
| 21:51 |
cheapie |
Those traffic lights actually aren't using a Luacontroller at all. |
| 21:51 |
cheapie |
That control cabinet thing at the left of the image (behind that pedestrian signal) is from my ltc4000e mod. |
| 21:51 |
Xiong |
I didn't think digilines was able to operate without a luacontroller. |
| 21:52 |
cheapie |
It can, yes. |
| 21:52 |
cheapie |
It actually doesn't depend on mesecons at all. |
| 21:52 |
cheapie |
Not having Luacontrollers would limit what you can do with it somewhat, but if you have other mods that can use it for other things then they still work. |
| 21:53 |
Xiong |
I need to see ltc4000e. |
| 21:53 |
cheapie |
https://cheapiesystems.com/git/ltc4000e/ |
| 21:54 |
cheapie |
It's... kinda complicated, but basically it's a traffic light controller for the traffic lights from the streets2 or roads modpacks. |
| 21:54 |
cheapie |
Those traffic lights communicate via digilines, and it's also designed to work with the digilines player detectors and/or "cameras" from digistuff. |
| 21:55 |
Xiong |
Yes. Interesting. |
| 21:56 |
cheapie |
It does emulate part of a Luacontroller internally, but you can't see that as the user since it's just left over from when it used to be a Luacontroller program and not its own mod. |
| 21:56 |
Xiong |
I offer a shaggy dog.... |
| 21:56 |
cheapie |
It might actually be possible to run fw.lua from the ltc4000e mod on a Luacontroller, but I haven't tried that :P |
| 21:57 |
Hawk777 |
Xiong: so if the thing you really dislike is actually Mesecons and not Digilines, then that piques my curiosity to the point of asking the obvious question: why do you dislike Mesecons? |
| 21:57 |
Xiong |
7,99Hawk777,99, perhaps the shaggy dog will shine a light inside my head. |
| 21:58 |
Xiong |
No wait. |
| 21:58 |
Xiong |
Why do I revile mesecons in general and not just the luacontroller? |
| 21:59 |
Hawk777 |
Well, you said you hate both, the controller especially. I’ll take answers for either. |
| 21:59 |
Xiong |
The connection scheme is nonsensical. |
| 21:59 |
Hawk777 |
How so? |
| 22:00 |
cheapie |
I think mesecons is designed to act like plain old logic-level digital signals, with the power supply to everything just being implied. |
| 22:00 |
Xiong |
All the hours I've fiddled with it, I still haven't figured out a simple rule for connecting two blocks. It's whimsy. |
| 22:00 |
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| 22:01 |
cheapie |
Ah, you mean the conduction rule stuff... |
| 22:01 |
Xiong |
,99cheapie,99, I'm willing to wave off power for signalling purposes. |
| 22:01 |
cheapie |
Aside from the torches (which, IIRC, are just legacy nonsense that haven't been removed yet for some reason), I haven't really had any problems with it. |
| 22:01 |
Xiong |
Conduction, connection.... |
| 22:02 |
Hawk777 |
I haven’t really relied on conduction through blocks, I admit. I tend to just use the wires, which look like what they do. |
| 22:02 |
Hawk777 |
I.e. if they look connected, then they are. |
| 22:02 |
Xiong |
??? |
| 22:02 |
cheapie |
I don't think you really even *can* connect through blocks, except buttons and levers. |
| 22:02 |
Xiong |
That's an amazing statement. |
| 22:04 |
Xiong |
I have... say... a piston... and a switch (full block). There ought to be a rational way to connect them. |
| 22:04 |
Hawk777 |
… I would just plop wires in the space between them. |
| 22:04 |
cheapie |
You can put the switch next to the piston, yes. |
| 22:05 |
Xiong |
Ah, but only in a certain way... diagonal. |
| 22:05 |
cheapie |
Seems to work for me, as long as it's on the same level and not on the pusher side, IIRC. |
| 22:05 |
* cheapie |
tries it. |
| 22:05 |
Xiong |
It's just weird. Doesn't fit in my head. |
| 22:06 |
cheapie |
Seems fine to me: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20190216_160554.png |
| 22:07 |
Xiong |
Um... to illustrate... look at the technic cable connectivity. Each unit of cable connects to each of the six nodes orthogonal to the first. |
| 22:07 |
cheapie |
Well, yes, in technic it's generally assumed that you want to connect everything together. |
| 22:07 |
Xiong |
Yes. |
| 22:08 |
cheapie |
That's not generally the case with mesecons, as otherwise it would be very hard to build anything complex. |
| 22:08 |
Xiong |
But the cables don't connect diagonally... either short or long. |
| 22:08 |
cheapie |
Mesecons don't connect diagonally either. |
| 22:09 |
cheapie |
I mean, you could make a mod that adds mesecons-compatible nodes with diagonal rules, but AFAIK nothing that comes with mesecons is like that. |
| 22:10 |
Xiong |
That may be a matter of viewpoint. Rather than hash it out, let's say that if it's possible to be confused about it, that's the issue. |
| 22:10 |
Hawk777 |
Wait a minute, you’re using *technic* as an example of an *intuitive* wiring system? The mod where, for Some Unspecified Reason, certain things, but only certain things (switching stations and battery boxes, but *not* resource processing machines) can only connect to wires underneath them, not horizontally adjacent? |
| 22:11 |
Hawk777 |
I enjoy technic, but I would not call its wiring rules intuitive. |
| 22:11 |
Xiong |
7,99Hawk777,99, technic cable only. The various machines do have weird port plans. |
| 22:11 |
cheapie |
I guess if you start moving stuff up/down, you can get mesecons to do some stuff that could be considered "diagonal" |
| 22:12 |
Hawk777 |
Fair enough. If you want six-sided connectivity, use Mese blocks. Those also connect all six sides, I believe? |
| 22:12 |
cheapie |
Hawk777: They do. |
| 22:12 |
Xiong |
Indeed... at cost. |
| 22:13 |
Hawk777 |
I personally prefer to be able to run a few different wires side by side, which requires them to *not* connect in all directions, so I use insulated wire. |
| 22:14 |
Xiong |
The material cost isn't cheap but worse, you can't see through. In any case, no, I don't think six-way connections are best in signalling. I upheld technic cable as an example of sth I understand. |
| 22:15 |
cheapie |
Xiong: You might want to write a mod adding some custom conductors - mesecons allows mods to add stuff like that, and then you can specify whatever rules you want. |
| 22:15 |
Hawk777 |
I don’t think I yet understand whether it’s the wires or the non-wire-based conduction you find difficult about Mesecons. |
| 22:15 |
cheapie |
(or, yeah, use insulated mesecons) |
| 22:15 |
Hawk777 |
We’re talking about wires now, but earlier you were talking about switches adjacent to pistons, which don’t involve wires at all |
| 22:18 |
Xiong |
I need to make it clear: I'm an old hardware dog. I learned to use a soldering iron before a pencil. I can't imagine having conceptual difficulty connecting a wire to two points. There may be all sorts of mechanical issues in making a solid electrical connection but it's a craft, not a logical headbreaker... trying to connect A to B and C to D without shorting the two wires. |
| 22:20 |
Xiong |
The true real process boils down to: Connect wire to A, connect other end to B. Insulation may be given or you rely on an air gap. |
| 22:21 |
Xiong |
If you try to map this onto MT, there are some obvious issues, no matter how you address them or with what mod. |
| 22:21 |
Hawk777 |
You’re right, it *is* more of a geometry puzzle to get Mesecons wires in the right places and not connecting where you don’t want them to. But to me, that’s just inherent in the nature of a cube-based game. It’s not something about Mesecons, it’s something about Minetest: the fact that every single thing you build is 1×1×1 metre, |
| 22:21 |
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| 22:23 |
Xiong |
Right. And for low-frequency, low-voltage applucations, geometry is utterly irrelevant. |
| 22:23 |
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| 22:24 |
Hawk777 |
Yes. But the point I was making is that this isn’t a Mesecons problem, it’s a cube-based-game problem. If the game is built around cubes, then you have to use cubes to build things, and using cubes to build things means finding space to fit them in, even if the equivalent in real life would be absurd. |
| 22:24 |
Xiong |
So yes, any implementation will run into a... unreality? Simulation failure? Dunno. |
| 22:26 |
Xiong |
Anyway, I doubt it's a matter that can be fought out with rational argument. Mesecons isn't to my taste. I'd rather have even less flexibility, if I could buy the ability to build simple circuits simply. |
| 22:27 |
cheapie |
FWIW, I find it kinda fun to try to compact mesecons stuff into the smallest possible area. |
| 22:27 |
Xiong |
Erm... of course I'd rather have a straightforward *and* |
| 22:28 |
cheapie |
Even if that does mean doing... strange things with the wiring. |
| 22:28 |
Xiong |
... flexible wiring scheme. |
| 22:28 |
Hawk777 |
I honestly have the same frustration. Wire in real life is *tiny*. It’s annoying that it takes up so much space in Minetest. But that’s just Minetest. I don’t complain about it, because I don’t imagine any alternative to Mesecons would likely do any better—it might make different choices regarding connection rules of wires, but fundamentally, it would still be about building something that should be tiny using only huge |
| 22:28 |
Hawk777 |
s. |
| 22:29 |
cheapie |
I think someone did make a mod once where you could route wires however you wanted. Dunno what ever happened to that. |
| 22:29 |
Xiong |
Anyway I'm already settled about connections... worked that out a month ago. |
| 22:29 |
Hawk777 |
What do you dislike about the Luacontroller? |
| 22:30 |
Xiong |
I banged in today about digilines because of the luacontroller. |
| 22:31 |
Xiong |
It's... a lua interpreter... inside a lua program... inside a lua interpreter. |
| 22:31 |
Hawk777 |
That is technically not true. |
| 22:31 |
Hawk777 |
It’s a Lua *sandbox* inside a Lua program inside a Lua interpreter. The Luacontroller doesn’t do any Lua interpretation. Your Luacontroller code is interpreted by the native Minetest Lua. |
| 22:31 |
cheapie |
It actually runs in the same Lua interpreter as everything else in MT, just sandboxed. |
| 22:33 |
cheapie |
I'll admit the sandboxing isn't the most effective, but... well, it usually works :P |
| 22:33 |
Xiong |
Okay. Sandbox inside program inside interpreter. I don't really care how it works but... what it does. I see a box inside a box. |
| 22:34 |
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| 22:34 |
cheapie |
How would you like it to be done instead? |
| 22:36 |
Xiong |
Hey. I worked hard last night, nasty weather, dozens of near-scrapes, ten hours of wet hell. The peak was a customer who got mad when I was busy outperforming my competition. I told him, professionally, "no charge". And he asked "are you serious" |
| 22:36 |
Xiong |
So... I'm tired. Definitely not in a mood to argue. Not here |
| 22:37 |
cheapie |
I'm not even trying to argue that this way is better or anything... I'm trying to figure out what your suggestion even *is* |
| 22:39 |
Xiong |
... to sell my views. Did want to know what digilines applications players had. All I really offer by way of explanation is my opinion that mesecons luacontroller is a horror. Some kids don't like clowns. |
| 22:40 |
Xiong |
"How would you like it to be done instead?" -- we probably differ on "it"... and that comes before "how". |
| 22:41 |
cheapie |
OK, so what would you like to see in place of the Luacontroller? |
| 22:42 |
Xiong |
In theory, I suppose it possible to run a complete emulation of chess or openttd inside MT. Not sure I'm interested. |
| 22:43 |
cheapie |
I mean, if I can figure out what you want, I might be able to direct you towards the appropriate mod(s) if one exists. |
| 22:44 |
Xiong |
,99cheapie,99, I'm not trying to evade you or blow smoke. I'm serious. My ideas are fluid, not fixed. I have several ideas for a controller but the good idea depends on the use of the thing. |
| 22:44 |
Dr_Frankenstone |
Could I get a wiki account on the dev wiki? |
| 22:45 |
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| 22:45 |
Dr_Frankenstone |
Forum name is just DrFrankenstone without any underscore |
| 22:46 |
Xiong |
My first thought is that the prime use of mesecons/digilines or any control scheme is to manage pipeworks and technic. That's a narrow view so I want to hear more. |
| 22:47 |
timers |
question about engine performance w/ nodetimers: does it cost anything, performance-wise, to register an 'on_timer' callback for every node in the game, assuming that in general timers are not actually used (read: started)? |
| 22:50 |
Hawk777 |
Xiong: I guess my perspective is this: the world of Minetest is a huge world, full of stuff. Most of it is static, unless acted on by a human player. A handful of things change that rule and can manipulate the world: pistons, node breakers, node placers, pipes, tubes, etc.. Just like actuators in real life, they need to be controlled somehow. |
| 22:50 |
Hawk777 |
In real life, sometimes the easiest way to control equipment is a fixed-function circuit, and other times it’s a computer (or something similar, like a microcontroller) where you can write code to define the control logic for the equipment. Likewise, Minetest: Mesecons wires and logic gates are fixed-function circuits, while Luacontrollers are programmable; depending on the complexity of the logic you need, either one might be e |
| 22:50 |
Hawk777 |
than the other. |
| 22:51 |
Xiong |
,99cheapie,99, 7,99Hawk777,99, I'm sorry I strayed so far. Thanks for sharing your ideas; they inform me. I didn't mean to ignite controversy. |
| 22:51 |
Hawk777 |
So a Luacontroller adequately fills a particular role: that of a programmable device which can read sensors and fire actuators to manipulate the world in complicated ways, which *could* be done with fixed logic gates, but would be really annoying to do so. |
| 22:52 |
Hawk777 |
No no, I don’t mind at all! |
| 22:52 |
p_gimeno |
<cheapie> I don't think you really even *can* connect through blocks, except buttons and levers. |
| 22:52 |
Xiong |
Argh. Look, I'm sorry... but I just can't let that pass. |
| 22:53 |
Hawk777 |
So a Luacontroller could be used to sequence frame motors to move a building, control routing of items in tubes, turn power switches on and off (I did that, reading the level in a battery box and turning off a switching station to avoid wasting power), open and close big piston-based doors, really whatever you need. |
| 22:53 |
p_gimeno |
I discovered otherwise and I'm very happy about it. Vertical mesecons DO have an use. |
| 22:54 |
Xiong |
7,99Hawk777,99, when you wire gates together, what do you call that activity? |
| 22:54 |
p_gimeno |
cheapie: transmission from bottom to top through a vertical mesecon with a block in the middle, make them suitable for automatic doors |
| 22:54 |
* cheapie |
nods |
| 22:55 |
cheapie |
They'll connect to buttons/levers if you screwdriver them onto the floor too. |
| 22:55 |
Hawk777 |
Xiong: I would call that… building a circuit? Wiring? |
| 22:55 |
Hawk777 |
Why, are you suggesting that I could use the word “programming” there? |
| 22:55 |
cheapie |
(hmm, I wonder who added that functionality :P) |
| 22:55 |
Xiong |
"Programming". |
| 22:56 |
Hawk777 |
You’re absolutely right. I do *not* disagree. Anything, literally *anything*, that a Luacontroller can do, can also be done with logic gates and wires. I totally agree with that. |
| 22:56 |
Hawk777 |
But… it’s also the case that something that can be done with one Luacontroller, which takes up one cube of space, might take hundreds of cubes worth of gates. |
| 22:56 |
Xiong |
In reality, a CPU is just a very big pile of gates. |
| 22:56 |
Hawk777 |
Of course it is. I designed one once (a very simple one, but I did). |
| 22:57 |
Xiong |
So. |
| 22:57 |
cheapie |
p_gimeno: FWIW, you can also screwdriver buttons/levers onto the ceiling, run mesecons over them, and they'll connect. |
| 22:57 |
p_gimeno |
cheapie: I mean a signal (in my case to open/close a door) can travel through a vertical mesecons to a device two blocks above |
| 22:57 |
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| 22:57 |
cheapie |
Yes, that works too, I was just saying that it also works for buttons/levers :P |
| 22:58 |
p_gimeno |
good to know :) |
| 22:58 |
Xiong |
What exists between loose logic chips and a standard desktop machine? |
| 22:58 |
Hawk777 |
Two things. One is size. The other is user interface devices. |
| 22:59 |
Hawk777 |
A desktop computer has gates that are so tiny you can’t even see them, and it comes with a little over a hundred buttons arranged in a nice grid, a few million LCD pixels, and so on. |
| 22:59 |
cheapie |
You could certainly build a fully x86-compatible computer out of basic logic ICs and stuff, it'll just be huge and slot :P |
| 22:59 |
cheapie |
slow* |
| 22:59 |
Hawk777 |
… and speed. Definitely speed. |
| 22:59 |
p_gimeno |
two words: Integrated Circuit. Just think about what these words mean. |
| 23:00 |
Xiong |
Let me rephrase. What machines exist, in conceptual complexity between hardwired switches and Turing-like CPUs? |
| 23:00 |
Hawk777 |
FPGAs? |
| 23:01 |
Xiong |
FPGAs aren't much of a step up but yes. |
| 23:01 |
Xiong |
You might well write a FPGA mod. |
| 23:01 |
Hawk777 |
Well, Mesecons already has an FPGA, albeit a pretty small one. |
| 23:02 |
Xiong |
Dunno. But... now maybe you see my mind. |
| 23:02 |
cheapie |
I've never really liked the mesecons FPGA. Seems like anything I can do with it I can do much, much more easily with a LuaC. |
| 23:03 |
p_gimeno |
Xiong: to answer your question, I've used Mesecons to control carts, trains and doors, and Digilines as a single-node bus to control a multiple stop cart system that works a bit like a lift. Also I made my own Digilines-based mod that introduces an I/O node, https://notabug.org/pgimeno/digiplay |
| 23:03 |
Xiong |
Aha. See... you guys are software jocks. You gravitate to the more complex, full-featured tool. That's okay, it's how you roll. |
| 23:04 |
* Xiong |
looks |
| 23:04 |
Hawk777 |
I’m afraid I still don’t 100% understand what you’re looking for. You said that an FPGA “isn’t much of a step up”. Do you have an example of something that is, if you will, higher-level than an FPGA, but lower-level than a CPU? |
| 23:06 |
Xiong |
Concrptually. |
| 23:06 |
Xiong |
How about a PLC? |
| 23:07 |
p_gimeno |
PLCs are PCs for logic control. They contain CPU, RAM etc. |
| 23:08 |
p_gimeno |
Ladder logic is pretty much new symbols for what Mesecons already does. |
| 23:09 |
p_gimeno |
In fact, the concepts of ladder logic can be translated to Mesecons pretty well. |
| 23:09 |
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| 23:10 |
Xiong |
Right, PLCs are disguised PCs. |
| 23:10 |
Xiong |
Wrong, ladder logic is not new. |
| 23:11 |
JDCodeIt |
Hi All: I see the humidity and biome functions still in the cpp code, but no lua wrappers seem to be in scope when i call minetest.get_humidity(pos) for example - are these no longer supported? |
| 23:11 |
p_gimeno |
Sorry, I didn't want to imply it's new. Replace new with different, that's what I meant. |
| 23:11 |
Xiong |
Okay. |
| 23:15 |
Xiong |
Ladder logic is conceptually simpler that programming a procedural language. And the progression in practice is steady: relays and wires randomly thrown into the cabinet --> relays arranged properly in a rack and wired to a ladder scheme --> the same ladder emulated by Dark Arts... ignored by the schmuck trying to make the line turn out widgets. |
| 23:16 |
Hawk777 |
I admit I’ve never used ladder logic—the extent of my experience is wiring discrete gates, VHDL for FPGAs, and programming in various languages; I’ve never entered that particular corner of programmability. |
| 23:17 |
Hawk777 |
But if ladder logic is a tool you find easy to use, why not use it? Why not make a mod that lets you enter ladder logic and then poke at Mesecons ports or Digilines channels with it? |
| 23:17 |
Hawk777 |
Seems like a reasonable addition to the Mesecons/Digilines ecosystem to me. |
| 23:17 |
Xiong |
I do understand the magnetic draw of the Turing machine, screen and keyboard. |
| 23:17 |
p_gimeno |
I have. The problem with ladder logic in MT is that it is usually omitted how the relay's coil is powered, but in MT that would need wiring as well, which pretty much means yet another mess of wires. |
| 23:18 |
Hawk777 |
Eh, if you omit the need to power a Luacontroller or a logic gate, why can’t you omit the need to power a relay ladder as well? |
| 23:18 |
Hawk777 |
Just assume the power comes From Magic. |
| 23:18 |
Xiong |
Well. The connection/port scheme issue is linked but distinct from the controller issue. |
| 23:19 |
p_gimeno |
nah, mese is a fuel and it has a finite life - but its life is very long. I think all mese will have lost power by 2107. |
| 23:20 |
Xiong |
I don't think physical wiring is practical in a world where only one thing can fit in a meter cube. |
| 23:20 |
Xiong |
Even Technic cable is somewhat absurd. |
| 23:21 |
p_gimeno |
... and that's the gap that Mesecons makes its best to fill :) |
| 23:22 |
Xiong |
But... even a century ago, I believe the trans-Atlantic cable was less than a meter in diameter. Need to look that up. |
| 23:22 |
Xiong |
Yes, 3,99p_gimeno,99. I don't like it. |
| 23:24 |
Xiong |
Please, let me go watch teevee a bit. I probably shouldn't have stirred my brains so soon after $work... while still mushy. |
| 23:25 |
Xiong |
Happy thought: Nothing I do will take anything away from anyone! :) |
| 23:27 |
Hawk777 |
Xiong: I have found this conversation interesting. I certainly don’t begrudge you the time it’s taken. As I said, new mods are good! |
| 23:30 |
p_gimeno |
I have to say, it would be interesting to use a sort of PAL IC in ladder logic :) |
| 23:30 |
p_gimeno |
to program* not to use |
| 23:32 |
Hawk777 |
I read about ladder logic on Wikipedia one time, but it didn’t really make sense. I found it confusing. |
| 23:32 |
Hawk777 |
Then again, Wikipedia tends to be a rather academic definition of a lot of things; perhaps some other introduction would have been more accessible. |
| 23:35 |
Hawk777 |
Reading it again now, it seems not so bad. |
| 23:37 |
p_gimeno |
it's just another way of writing logical circuits alternative to logic gates |
| 23:37 |
p_gimeno |
based on relays |
| 23:39 |
p_gimeno |
It was the industry standard language in PLCs, not sure if that's the case anymore. While I was working for an engineering firm, structured language started to phase it out. |
| 23:41 |
p_gimeno |
structured text* sorry |
| 23:48 |
Hawk777 |
For me, ladder logic is one of those things I know *of*, but have just never been in a situation to use. |
| 23:58 |
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