| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:14 |
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Tuxedo[Qyou] joined #minetest |
| 00:19 |
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Hirato_ joined #minetest |
| 00:29 |
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ANAND joined #minetest |
| 00:30 |
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Hirato joined #minetest |
| 00:34 |
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puzzlecube joined #minetest |
| 01:03 |
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_Mis_Nanina_ joined #minetest |
| 01:04 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Hello |
| 01:04 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Fuck |
| 01:04 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Jshshwjhsbshsgsb ajgsbs |
| 01:04 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Ushsbajahsbshjhbjdbhkgd sjhudbgyhubdrbrcehbucefuihebvfef |
| 01:06 |
Xiong |
_Mis_Nanina_, I don't recall your nick. Please be so good as to show just a bit of coherence. I don't want to rush to conclusions. May we be of service? |
| 01:07 |
GreenDimond |
No we may not - they have already left. |
| 01:08 |
diemartin |
RIP |
| 01:08 |
Xiong |
Well GreenDimond, I'm calling it drive-by nut. |
| 01:09 |
Xiong |
Sincerely, I don't like to make snap judgements. |
| 01:09 |
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Ruslan1 joined #minetest |
| 01:11 |
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_Mis_Nanina_ joined #minetest |
| 01:11 |
Xiong |
Well. Let me tell where I'm at. I've played through a game: 5.0.0, v7, technic with plenty of trimmings. I've got to the stage of running multiple overlapping quarries. I see no need whatever for the reactor. |
| 01:11 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Hello |
| 01:12 |
GreenDimond |
Ah, she has returned. |
| 01:12 |
GreenDimond |
Good luck, Xiong. |
| 01:12 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Um hello |
| 01:12 |
diemartin |
Greetings. |
| 01:13 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
GreenDiamond let me tell you somthing*It s like somthing for a nexxrsd in English |
| 01:13 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Greetings,dieemartin |
| 01:14 |
hecks |
Forget about TLS, irc needs breathalyzers |
| 01:14 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Has anyone seen a picture of dying irc from lovekittys |
| 01:15 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Heck’s |
| 01:15 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Hecks |
| 01:15 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
HELLO |
| 01:16 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Then if I kinda get that taxtixom from |
| 01:16 |
Xiong |
Welcome back, _Mis_Nanina_. It's not clear to me how your question can be answered. |
| 01:17 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Um I know but I’m I have to tell you somthing |
| 01:17 |
Xiong |
This chan is about the game, Minetest. Most discussion is somewhat technical. |
| 01:18 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Xiang I got a sr |
| 01:19 |
Xiong |
If you're new to IRC... most channels are more or less confined to a narrow topic. There are several that welcome general discussion. |
| 01:21 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Yeah I’m kinda new...One time I was in a bossy irc I got bullied and then kicked kicked and I got banned so I think I like this one more then the other one but the tactisom will get bad if I can’t control myself so I know capture the flag I played it’s like minecraft 0.1 |
| 01:21 |
Xiong |
Ah... also, not to denigrate but merely to inform... as odd and pedantic as it may seem, most IRC users are somewhat careful about spelling, although many shortcuts are used. |
| 01:22 |
Xiong |
We might be more helpful if you put your... comments? in context. |
| 01:23 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Ah ah ah ah ah NO......That channel is BAD I never knew but this girl name Veronica she is a meanie so my name is |
| 01:23 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
And what do you mean context? |
| 01:23 |
Xiong |
Which "that channel"? This is ##minetest. |
| 01:25 |
Xiong |
Well. Context is information already known to your audience. You link your new thoughts to old ones. |
| 01:25 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Oh.Taht bossy channel is called #CutieMinetezsBullys and the boss was.....GreenDiamond..And my name is Naskita and nick name Nanina....So please don’t talk to GreenDiamond,Xinong |
| 01:26 |
Xiong |
Okay, that's context. |
| 01:26 |
VanessaE |
GreenDimond is a well-respected participant here, _Mis_Nanina_. |
| 01:27 |
VanessaE |
whatever problem you have with him or the channel he runs, please do not discuss it here. |
| 01:27 |
GreenDimond |
Perhaps now is the time to make that "snap judgement" - this is fake. |
| 01:27 |
Xiong |
_Mis_Nanina_, I'm not the boss here and please don't take what I say in any sort of authoritative voice. This channel is definitely not for resolution of disputes in that channel. |
| 01:28 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Ooh um how how do you do the red name like VanessaE |
| 01:28 |
Xiong |
Also not for that. |
| 01:29 |
VanessaE |
_Mis_Nanina_: my name probably turned red because I turned on channel operator mode. |
| 01:29 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Um I’m getting. A little scared |
| 01:29 |
Xiong |
I'm about the most liberal adult when it comes to topic. But even I think it's out of the box. |
| 01:30 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Um How do you do that VanessaE the operator mode. |
| 01:30 |
VanessaE |
you don't. |
| 01:31 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Wait I will leave for 2 mine. |
| 01:31 |
Xiong |
-- anyway -- As I said, I've about run current game to the end. I have observations and I face a decision. |
| 01:34 |
Xiong |
First, great improvements have been made in core and in most of the many mods I've loaded up. Tip of the hat to VanessaE, who has ironed out many kinks both internal to mods and mismatches among them. I do see a lot of hard work over the past five years. |
| 01:35 |
|
LadyPyle joined #minetest |
| 01:35 |
LadyPyle |
Hello |
| 01:36 |
GreenDimond |
Greetings |
| 01:36 |
VanessaE |
LadyPyle: Official RC1: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=22078 -- daily builds: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3837 (Linux) or https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=17439 (Windows) |
| 01:36 |
VanessaE |
in case you wondered why you couldn't get back on my servers. |
| 01:36 |
diemartin |
No Android 5.0 yet? :-( |
| 01:36 |
VanessaE |
nope |
| 01:36 |
GreenDimond |
Stu has 5.0 Android builds |
| 01:36 |
VanessaE |
oh |
| 01:37 |
VanessaE |
oh right, I've used one of hie |
| 01:37 |
GreenDimond |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=21526 |
| 01:37 |
VanessaE |
his |
| 01:37 |
VanessaE |
derp |
| 01:37 |
* VanessaE |
adds that link to her topic |
| 01:37 |
diemartin |
He does? Thanks GreenDimond. |
| 01:37 |
Xiong |
However, the technic stack, all the way down to core engine, is riddled with bugs, playability issues, and useless features. I've patched a couple and had decided how to patch several more. It's a long list. |
| 01:38 |
VanessaE |
thanks, GD. :) |
| 01:39 |
Xiong |
VanessaE, will RC1 client run on your servers? Or must the client be updated nightly? |
| 01:39 |
VanessaE |
it will run. |
| 01:39 |
VanessaE |
but RC2 is in the works already, just FYI. |
| 01:40 |
|
LadyPyle__ joined #minetest |
| 01:40 |
Xiong |
And... we expect RC1 client to fail on RC2 server? |
| 01:40 |
VanessaE |
nah |
| 01:40 |
VanessaE |
anything 5.0.0 from rc1 on up should be cross-compat with everything else from that point on. |
| 01:41 |
VanessaE |
(5.0.0 did get a protocol change some time long before rc1 came out, but that's irrelevant now) |
| 01:41 |
diemartin |
Rc1 has some showstoppers IIRC |
| 01:41 |
VanessaE |
yeah |
| 01:41 |
VanessaE |
but they're being fixed. |
| 01:42 |
|
_Mis_Nanina_ joined #minetest |
| 01:44 |
Xiong |
Thanks. I have to say, semver makes this kind of question unnecessary. *sigh* |
| 01:45 |
Xiong |
I do want to try your server but Android is a straitjacket. Updating is messy and maintaining multiple executables is a nightmare. |
| 01:46 |
Xiong |
Let me catch up my summary. I want input. |
| 01:48 |
Xiong |
My third comment is that technic still seems like a solution in search of a problem... or a marathon without a finish line (or even a paper cup of Gatorade). Fun stuff but to what end? |
| 01:49 |
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puzzlecube1 joined #minetest |
| 01:50 |
Xiong |
By the time you have quarries running, you already have tools sufficient to mine large quantities of anything you desire... if not, you won't have quarries running. |
| 01:50 |
hecks |
I agree, but the problem is with the rest of the game; technic provides a decent tech tree at least |
| 01:50 |
hecks |
technic would be much better with VAOs |
| 01:51 |
hecks |
I'd have more fun with technic if it were capable of making machines that can dig their own tunnels, but even with frames the quarries are too limited for that. |
| 01:51 |
Xiong |
hecks, technic has a great tech tree. Outstanding. Poorly planned but... dunno, 73% rational. |
| 01:52 |
GreenDimond |
use digtron for tunnels |
| 01:52 |
GreenDimond |
really good mod |
| 01:52 |
hecks |
The problem is that there's still no "game" in "minetest game" and clobbering dozens of mods together will not create that game out of thin air |
| 01:52 |
Xiong |
Noticed digtron. May try it. |
| 01:52 |
hecks |
and any game you try to create with one mod will have a problem playing well with existing mods |
| 01:52 |
Xiong |
hecks++ |
| 01:53 |
hecks |
The only solution is to subgame from scratch and borrow ideas from mtg mods, treat them as an example. |
| 01:53 |
Xiong |
Although I don't require a game with defined goal. I enjoy open-ended toys. |
| 01:53 |
hecks |
I enjoyed it too until bugs ate my frameship |
| 01:54 |
hecks |
one of those days, if anyone's gonna get off their arse and do VAOs it'll be me |
| 01:54 |
Xiong |
My last point is just that technic, on its own, goes nowhere. |
| 01:54 |
Xiong |
VAOs? |
| 01:55 |
hecks |
Movable, rotating node chunks that don't suck. |
| 01:55 |
hecks |
The feature that everyone talks about and nobody wants to work on. |
| 01:55 |
Xiong |
"Frames"? |
| 01:56 |
hecks |
Frames provide similar functionality but they suck. |
| 01:56 |
Xiong |
Okay well. |
| 01:56 |
hecks |
I want my ships to turn, and I need VAOs for that. |
| 01:57 |
Xiong |
Not to imply any link... |
| 01:57 |
hecks |
VAOs done right will require an overhaul of the whole world system and that's why nobody is doing them. |
| 01:58 |
Xiong |
I'm not looking to create another tier of complexity for complexity's sake... either by extending technic or through another mod. |
| 01:59 |
Xiong |
I think the appropriate route... offramp... from success in technic should be thematic, aesthetic, and social. |
| 02:00 |
hecks |
Sending a self propelled nuke at someone is a wonderful goal for a game of technic, at the moment. |
| 02:00 |
Xiong |
Let me... backfill here. |
| 02:02 |
Xiong |
Technic, IMO, must be considered together with mesecons and pipeworks. Last time I was in, digilines wasn't up; recently VanessaE jumped it well forward. |
| 02:04 |
hecks |
There's already a problem with this mod combo; technic requires power, while mesecons "just work". |
| 02:05 |
Xiong |
I think mesecons is a nasty smelly pile of what the dog ate. I blame nobody here for this. My understanding is that mesecons is an imitation of a MC feature. So we've just copied a bad design. I wish to bulldoze the mess. Perhaps digilines is a win; I'll have to try. |
| 02:05 |
hecks |
Mesecons already provide a lot of useful nodes, redundant with some of technic's stuff. Maybe the issue is that technic does not override the mesecons nodes. |
| 02:06 |
hecks |
Xiong, you said something very crucial here |
| 02:06 |
hecks |
> My understanding is that mesecons is an imitation of a MC feature. So we've just copied a bad design. I wish to bulldoze the mess. |
| 02:06 |
Xiong |
hecks Not sure why the power issue. Signals don't usually consume much power; industrial machines do. |
| 02:06 |
hecks |
replace "mesecons" with just about anything there |
| 02:06 |
Xiong |
Well wait. |
| 02:07 |
hecks |
and the power issue is that node breakers, placers, pipeworks filters, etc. do not require power |
| 02:07 |
Xiong |
Pipeworks isn't perfect but it's damn good, both on it's own and supporting technic. |
| 02:07 |
hecks |
I can make a seed-sieving machine without as much as an LV power source. This is the problem. |
| 02:08 |
hecks |
Mese is just too damn magical 8) |
| 02:08 |
Xiong |
Well. Issue. |
| 02:09 |
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DI3HARD139 joined #minetest |
| 02:09 |
Xiong |
I object to other aspects. But I agree that when mesecons starts digging nodes, it's no longer merely blinky lights and turning heavy machinery on... and shouldn't do that. |
| 02:10 |
Xiong |
But... as I say, I wish to doze mesecons right off the table. |
| 02:11 |
hecks |
iirc my frameship required no power to move and keep the lights on |
| 02:11 |
Xiong |
And yes, in my view, technic itself needs an overhaul anyway. I'm only happy with the P in PMT. |
| 02:12 |
Xiong |
Ideally, everything electrical should consume power. |
| 02:13 |
Xiong |
I'm an EE, so I tend to get emotional about this. I try to relax. |
| 02:13 |
hecks |
...mesecons have no resistance |
| 02:14 |
Xiong |
Well, trchnic cable doesn't, either. In fact the whole model is weird. |
| 02:15 |
hecks |
neither do technic cables, and heat, and holy mackerel, how could you implement accurate nuclear fuel production and yet forget about that |
| 02:15 |
Xiong |
I keep looking at the switch saying "1500 W in, 0 W out" and scratching my head. It's impossible. |
| 02:16 |
hecks |
todo: general purpose spatial simulation api for things like heat, pressure, electric current, etc |
| 02:16 |
Xiong |
Yes yes haha reactor cooling a little puddle around the core! And P has liquid pumping now, yes? |
| 02:16 |
hecks |
even something as simple as power getting weaker with cable distance would make me happy |
| 02:17 |
hecks |
that reminds me, does stepping on a broken HV wire kill you in technic? |
| 02:17 |
Xiong |
Well yes. I'm willing to accept simplification. Hey we do that IRL. |
| 02:18 |
Xiong |
What? |
| 02:18 |
hecks |
I want to fry mobs with electric fences :) |
| 02:18 |
Xiong |
Look carefully. A cable end is itself insulated. |
| 02:18 |
hecks |
ha |
| 02:19 |
hecks |
What else... wind generator only looks at the presence of 10-ish nodes under itself, which may be underground for all it cares |
| 02:19 |
Xiong |
Accept simplification. For playability and for a simulation that doesn't require a Cray. |
| 02:19 |
hecks |
would it be that hard to actually check the surroundings |
| 02:20 |
Xiong |
Okay yes. More details. I agree with your general drift, hecks. |
| 02:20 |
hecks |
and I do believe I've done shenanigans with water turbines; flowing water is a thing, maybe the engine doesn't let us check for it but it should |
| 02:21 |
Xiong |
The windmill is so silly it's disabled by default. |
| 02:21 |
hecks |
speaking of water, a frameship emerging from water is a cool sight and actually looks like it should |
| 02:22 |
hecks |
oh yeah, water, why doesn't water brick my electrical devices |
| 02:22 |
Xiong |
The hydro is reasonable. Water doesn't really flow, after all. VanessaE recently fixed the adjacency issue. |
| 02:23 |
Xiong |
Because they're insulated? |
| 02:23 |
hecks |
Even when they're not, like bare mesecons? |
| 02:23 |
hecks |
todo liquids overhaul |
| 02:23 |
Xiong |
We already threw M under the bus. |
| 02:24 |
hecks |
speaking of mesecons, I've been thinking of a cooler way to design electronics ingame, using inventory grids |
| 02:24 |
Xiong |
Please. Details details. |
| 02:25 |
Xiong |
I'm trying to tie all my musings together with the results of play. I mentioned a decision. |
| 02:26 |
hecks |
Not much to talk about here; you'd use an inventory the way you place gates in the world with mesecons; you'd get a PCB node with the stuff in its metadata |
| 02:27 |
Xiong |
Is the current state of technic so... jammed into a corner... that one must start over? Or can it be reworked? And recall I have issues with other elements of the stack. |
| 02:28 |
hecks |
Yes, one must start over. But go down that road and you'll soon see that minetest game itself is broken, and you'll want to get rid of that as well. |
| 02:29 |
hecks |
And then you'll be doing your thing from scratch, and you'll notice that the engine is pretty broken too |
| 02:30 |
Xiong |
There comes a point in every longterm project when it resembles the end of a game of Jengo blocks... coated in library paste. More effort goes into keeping the thing from falling apart than into adding another block; and nobody wants to touch the melted semisolid goo in the center. |
| 02:31 |
hecks |
Yup, but sooner or later it must be done; or else the competition will eat you |
| 02:32 |
Xiong |
Now some guys have gotten their hands dirty with 5.0.0. It truly is a real basic improvement. |
| 02:32 |
hecks |
Not really. |
| 02:32 |
Xiong |
Hey. It runs on my phone now. |
| 02:33 |
Xiong |
Who is the competition? |
| 02:33 |
hecks |
Yes, it's all mobile phones and content databases now... |
| 02:33 |
hecks |
meanwhile the engine is choking at every step and begging for mercy |
| 02:34 |
hecks |
and the competition would be anyone doing a more modern voxel engine; if they provide a lua api that can potentially run mtg's mods, minetest is minetoast |
| 02:35 |
Xiong |
If there's an API to a more serious language, burnt toast. |
| 02:35 |
Xiong |
Although legacy support is always a sell. |
| 02:36 |
Xiong |
The trouble with a new engine running legacy mods is, this cripples engine design. |
| 02:36 |
hecks |
no, lua is fine, and legacy support is the only thing keeping minetest alive; and possibly the thing killing it |
| 02:37 |
hecks |
Imagine trying to fix vectors in minetest now |
| 02:37 |
hecks |
Technically a version bump to 5.0 warrants it perfectly, but try PRing that and see what happens |
| 02:38 |
Xiong |
Well, let's agree to disagree on Lua. I'd rather use PHP... and that I do not like. |
| 02:39 |
hecks |
A voxel engine running Mono would be somewhat scary for minetest |
| 02:40 |
hecks |
even though lua is more than good enough for the task, some tech just sells better |
| 02:41 |
Xiong |
Let's say that good engine design requires API support for multiple languages. The range of tasks addressed by mods is very broad. Lua for kid stuff, a serious interpreter for middle stuff, and some flavor of C for demanding stuff. |
| 02:42 |
hecks |
luajit fits the "serious interpreter" slot just fine |
| 02:42 |
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qzo joined #minetest |
| 02:43 |
hecks |
ffi works in mt, i've tried it |
| 02:43 |
Xiong |
The point isn't which languages are supported but the API itself. If you model, say, water differently, the mod with the watermill breaks. |
| 02:44 |
hecks |
The point would be to take over the users in one sweep; if the engine was better, forking the few incompatible mods wouldn't be a problem. |
| 02:45 |
Xiong |
You see it as a hostile takeover? |
| 02:45 |
hecks |
That could happen. |
| 02:45 |
hecks |
All you'd need is a a lua lib that emulates core and minetest game. |
| 02:46 |
Xiong |
In my mind, new users are going to be mobile users.Dunmo about overlap. |
| 02:46 |
hecks |
If someone came and took the mobile users, that would be a net benefit for MT. |
| 02:46 |
hecks |
At any rate, minetest is not in a good shape at the moment. |
| 02:47 |
Xiong |
I'm not a hostile person. I'm not interested in burning MT to smell the napalm. |
| 02:48 |
hecks |
Me neither. |
| 02:50 |
Xiong |
Well, then there's really no need to plan to suck users away. I envision a new userbase. Um... could be money in it. But I won't tolerate the bloodsucking I see in big commercial efforts. |
| 02:51 |
hecks |
Bloodsucking is already happening on the mobile side. Android port was a mistake. |
| 02:51 |
Xiong |
Not sure I care too much to encourage dozens of crappy independent servers. Yes, stuff based on open source must be open source. But there's no need to foment the chaos. |
| 02:52 |
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| 02:52 |
Xiong |
Eh? |
| 02:52 |
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| 02:53 |
hecks |
I've heard of some sleazy forks of MT for android |
| 02:54 |
Xiong |
I see a lot of obvious crap voxel games in Play Store. Are they all shitty hacks of MT? |
| 02:54 |
hecks |
Many of them are |
| 02:54 |
hecks |
and also off on a tangent; if MT didn't suck you'd have major issues with greedy servers |
| 02:55 |
hecks |
releasing my subgame alone would trigger a torrent of terrible servers |
| 02:56 |
Xiong |
My notion is to run a standard server and take in reasonable cash. Run a decent server costs money. So long as the good clean stuff is cheap, expensive crap can go hang. |
| 02:59 |
Xiong |
Not to wander OT but by way of illustration: I've been playing Event Horizon for three years. It's freemium, no ads. There's no pressure to IAP; they're there if you wanna but the game is perfectly playable without. I've spent about $25 over those three years... and it's working. Development is steady and good. |
| 03:01 |
Xiong |
Generally, when a major version rolls out, I buy a box of sth for $5, whether I want it or not, just to feed the dog. |
| 03:02 |
Xiong |
This is sane and reasonable... and the dev has a player for life. |
| 03:04 |
Xiong |
OTOH, I've occasionally dipped into the big commercial games when I had a few excess shekels. And after being fleeced out of $20 in a week, (a) never considered putting in another dime; and (b) soon quit. |
| 03:06 |
Xiong |
The greedy model may make mire money, dunno. But it reeks and I want no part of it. |
| 03:08 |
Xiong |
Anyway... running a standard server eases development considerably. Others can run servers if they like but if you can count on your environment, you're not chasing shadows. No obligation to fix every issue filed by a guy running a Commodore 64. |
| 03:15 |
Xiong |
hecks, I see an issue with Mono. |
| 03:15 |
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| 03:18 |
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NaskitaSumber joined #minetest |
| 03:18 |
hecks |
Oh, I didn't mean it as a suggestion. It's just that if someone wanted to make a popular voxel engine, they'd get a lot of modders with that. C# is kinda popular right now. |
| 03:18 |
NaskitaSumber |
Hello |
| 03:18 |
NaskitaSumber |
Heckss |
| 03:19 |
NaskitaSumber |
tpr usus |
| 03:19 |
NaskitaSumber |
Hello |
| 03:20 |
|
Wiki joined #minetest |
| 03:21 |
Xiong |
hecks, is that what I think it is? |
| 03:21 |
Guest39087 |
Hello |
| 03:21 |
hecks |
Yes it is |
| 03:21 |
Guest39087 |
Hello |
| 03:21 |
Guest39087 |
I’ll change my username |
| 03:22 |
rubenwardy |
Java > C# |
| 03:22 |
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Foz joined #minetest |
| 03:23 |
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_Mis_Nanina_ joined #minetest |
| 03:24 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Hello |
| 03:24 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Hello #minetest.Is anyone here? |
| 03:24 |
Xiong |
Anything tainted by the dead hand of Redmond, I won't touch. |
| 03:25 |
_Mis_Nanina_ |
Why.I gotta change my account to VeneziaT |
| 03:30 |
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NaskitaT__ |
Annacara? |
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| 03:40 |
Xiong |
Great. My IRC client just went over the falls in a barrel. |
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| 04:15 |
Xiong |
I believe I'm back. |
| 04:16 |
cheapie |
Xiong: No, you're still not here :P |
| 04:17 |
VanessaE |
no, you're over there ------> |
| 04:18 |
Xiong |
Thanks, cheapie. I'll be sure to let me know that next time I run into me. If I do. |
| 04:18 |
VanessaE |
just FYI, that NaskitaT__ person tried to log into my nickserv ID... |
| 04:20 |
Xiong |
,99VanessaE,99, being which was the primary cause of my panic, attempting to bulkhead my position... finding my client's dev took a powder (?)... and installing another client. |
| 04:20 |
* Xiong |
exhausted |
| 04:22 |
Xiong |
,99VanessaE,99, what do you think about all of this? You and I talked, hecks and I talked. I've said more than enough. |
| 04:23 |
VanessaE |
I have no opinion. |
| 04:24 |
hecks |
I said mine too; write better mods |
| 04:24 |
Xiong |
9,99hecks,99, I want to pick up that thread in a minnit. |
| 04:26 |
Xiong |
,99VanessaE,99,your opinion means much. If you no longer care what happens to MT, it's a giant redwood falling in the forest with everyone listening. |
| 04:27 |
VanessaE |
it's not that. I just don't have any opinion. |
| 04:28 |
Xiong |
I don't mean to be pushy. I'm an opinionated guy. I can't visualize not having one. |
| 04:28 |
VanessaE |
think of it as being offered your favorite food but having no appetite. |
| 04:30 |
Xiong |
hecks and I are similarly (if not identically) dissatisfied with the current state. No doubt, any change will annoy or inconvenience someone. I wouldn't like that to be you. |
| 04:31 |
VanessaE |
that's just it |
| 04:31 |
VanessaE |
the engine and community are ... kinda in upheaval right now |
| 04:32 |
VanessaE |
I just don't have enough information to form an opinion. |
| 04:32 |
Xiong |
hecks, you had much to say about the core... and I agree somewhat. Are you saying you're willing to work with it? |
| 04:32 |
hecks |
Rephrase your question |
| 04:33 |
Xiong |
Erk. Perhaps I can satisfy two ears with one word. |
| 04:33 |
hecks |
I think the core is a big friggin' mess with a lot of potential, that mtg sucks because it's communist knockoff minecraft and minecraft was never good |
| 04:33 |
Xiong |
,99VanessaE,99, 9,99hecks,99, the word is "mint". |
| 04:34 |
VanessaE |
... |
| 04:34 |
hecks |
and I'm sticking around because I've sunk some time into this thing and there's no mature competitor around |
| 04:35 |
hecks |
If something in the engine pisses me off enough, I'll try to fix it |
| 04:35 |
Xiong |
I'm thinking about reworking MT more inline with user expectations... especially mobile users but still serving desktop/laptoppers. |
| 04:35 |
hecks |
You don't need to, it's already like that |
| 04:36 |
VanessaE |
...and last time someone said they were gonna do that, it didn't end well. |
| 04:36 |
Xiong |
I see issues drag on for months, years... suspended on legacy excuses. Time to fish or cut bait. |
| 04:37 |
Xiong |
Dunno about last time. Tell me. |
| 04:37 |
VanessaE |
no need. |
| 04:38 |
Xiong |
Well, if there's any similarity and that thing went badly, I'd as soon not step in the same poo. |
| 04:38 |
VanessaE |
suffice it to say every time someone decides MT is going the wrong direction, they fork it, try to develop, and the fork just dies off. a certain aged "programmer" with a fetish for the illegal is just the most recent example (and he doesn't even have a legit fork) |
| 04:39 |
hecks |
Do you mean the guy who was sending the fake links? |
| 04:39 |
VanessaE |
some that come to mind that just simply died off are voxelands, blockplanet, minetest++, ... |
| 04:39 |
VanessaE |
I dunno about fake links, but that would fit his M-O. |
| 04:40 |
VanessaE |
but that's offtopic. |
| 04:40 |
Xiong |
Okay that comes back to the vibe 9,99hecks,99 gave me. I don't think starting from scratch is wise; and forking core is too much work. |
| 04:40 |
hecks |
I wouldn't try to fork core, I'd like it fixed |
| 04:40 |
VanessaE |
Xiong: if you think MT needs work to that extent, open issues, make PRs, help the devs by testing existing PRs, etc. |
| 04:41 |
Xiong |
I'm too old to think in terms of big projects. I like to think far ahead but get there in small stages. |
| 04:42 |
VanessaE |
that doesn't mean you can open an issue for things like "this texture looks like ass" or "such-and-such modding API call is-ambiguous/needs-feature-foo/doesn't-work", etc etc |
| 04:43 |
VanessaE |
can't* |
| 04:43 |
Xiong |
,99VanessaE,99, the general plan is to consolidate patches so "mint" isn't dependent on the whims of old dogs protecting their turf. I thought I aired this issue. |
| 04:44 |
VanessaE |
don't. just don't. |
| 04:44 |
VanessaE |
that's still an attempt to fork. |
| 04:44 |
Xiong |
Oh yes. |
| 04:44 |
VanessaE |
that's the very last thing minetest needs right now. |
| 04:45 |
Xiong |
Just as you've forked a dozen mods and made them work together. |
| 04:45 |
VanessaE |
that's a bit different. |
| 04:45 |
VanessaE |
I actually haven't done that much to them |
| 04:45 |
VanessaE |
and for the most part, any changes I've made, I've contributed upstream. |
| 04:46 |
Xiong |
Well. If the dog won't eat the food, time to get a new dog. What else can be done? |
| 04:46 |
VanessaE |
(not counting some stuff my modpack build script does to alter a few mods on-demand) |
| 04:46 |
hecks |
If that's the last thing MT needs, then the core devs kinda need to loosen up a little if someone wants to do their job |
| 04:47 |
VanessaE |
if the dog won't eat the food, you figure out why, and fix THAT issue (bitter? too sweet? he has bad teeth and can't chew? stomach upset?) |
| 04:47 |
Xiong |
I agree that, in general, patches should always be offered upstream. |
| 04:48 |
hecks |
the one time I tried PRing what was essentially a bugfix, the experience was less than stellar |
| 04:49 |
Xiong |
But... the analogy wears thin. Obviously I've given up on the idea of persuading the old guard. I can continue to make PRs but I won't do the work unless I have a place to put it. |
| 04:49 |
hecks |
That made me much less motivated to rebase that one, or contribute the things I've done since |
| 04:49 |
Xiong |
9,99hecks,99++ |
| 04:49 |
Xiong |
My thought exactly. |
| 04:50 |
hecks |
to put it into perspective, the PR was in limbo for so long that now it needs a rebase |
| 04:50 |
Xiong |
I'm too old to babysit grandpa. All my grandpas are dead. |
| 04:50 |
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| 04:51 |
kaeza |
~karma hecks |
| 04:51 |
ShadowBot |
kaeza: Karma for "hecks" has been increased 1 time and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 1. |
| 04:51 |
hecks |
and it was in limbo because a certain core dev did not understand vector math or how CPUs work |
| 04:51 |
hecks |
and because "oh no this will break compat in 0.1% of cases" even though 5.0 is for breaking |
| 04:51 |
hecks |
"We're not paid for this shit" works both ways |
| 04:52 |
Xiong |
Fine and decent to wheel the chair over to the window and leave a plate and a fork. He's gonna need to hire help if he needs spoonfeeding. |
| 04:53 |
Xiong |
There I go into analogy again. Sorry! |
| 04:54 |
hecks |
The application is not trivial to build, and enforces strict code guidelines which happen to be the exact opposite of my habits. It's also a mess. |
| 04:55 |
VanessaE |
spotted the spaces-to-indent guy! :) |
| 04:55 |
Xiong |
Plainly, I'm neither willing to sweettalk devs who snort at me like an admiral to a swabbie... nor wait for them to re-have the idea themselves and write their own fix. |
| 04:55 |
hecks |
Nope, tabs 4 wide all day every day |
| 04:55 |
hecks |
Having to put up with extra brueaucracy on top of this is very deflating |
| 04:55 |
Xiong |
? |
| 04:56 |
hecks |
no, the difference is mt not spacing inside parentheses and using look_mom_im_a_hacker_case which infuriates me to no end |
| 04:56 |
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| 04:57 |
Xiong |
I'm agnostic about this stuff in a distributed dev community. You cab run it all through a prettyprinter. |
| 04:57 |
hecks |
which takes less time than telling someone to fix it |
| 04:57 |
Xiong |
Me, I dislike CaMelS. |
| 04:58 |
hecks |
not a dealbreaker for me but please don't add more crap on top |
| 04:58 |
Xiong |
? |
| 04:59 |
Xiong |
I say one underbar in an identifier is fine; two maybe okay. Three is a sign you've lost your scope... or fear to do so. |
| 05:00 |
hecks |
I mean about code style, and bad code; I can deal with it as long as I'm not being interrogated over a few float muls like it's 1992 |
| 05:00 |
Xiong |
Well there ya go. |
| 05:01 |
hecks |
My back can only take so many straws |
| 05:01 |
Xiong |
And... me too. |
| 05:01 |
GreenDimond |
Ha |
| 05:01 |
GreenDimond |
its funny because we're talking about code style |
| 05:01 |
GreenDimond |
camel case ;p |
| 05:01 |
GreenDimond |
what an unintentional pun |
| 05:02 |
GreenDimond |
Ill show myself out |
| 05:02 |
hecks |
I considered writing MyBack but that would be just horrible |
| 05:02 |
GreenDimond |
myBack |
| 05:02 |
hecks |
oh whatever |
| 05:02 |
GreenDimond |
camel case that LooksLikeThis is so much worseThanThis |
| 05:03 |
hecks |
for me it's TypeAndFunction, variableAndField, look_mom_im_a_hacker, _PLEASE_KILL_ME |
| 05:03 |
Xiong |
They don't get paid to maintain. I don't get paid to test, fix, test (rinse repeat), submit PR. I'm not hostile; I'd rather walk from the fight. |
| 05:04 |
GreenDimond |
_ is only valid in some cases |
| 05:04 |
GreenDimond |
usually like __this |
| 05:04 |
VanessaE |
hecks: you forgot one: aLLMyVoWeLSaReSMaLL |
| 05:04 |
hecks |
no VanessaE, I forgot sz_ShittyMicrosoftCode |
| 05:05 |
hecks |
or actually lpsz_YouKnowWhatIMean |
| 05:05 |
GreenDimond |
butHaveYou_seenThis |
| 05:05 |
hecks |
if I have, it must've been winapi too |
| 05:05 |
GreenDimond |
camel_Score |
| 05:05 |
GreenDimond |
oh god what have I done |
| 05:05 |
Xiong |
Oh yes, warts! These are ungood. Another reason to favor languages with type sigils. |
| 05:05 |
hecks |
you've done perfectly normal javascript code |
| 05:07 |
Xiong |
Now all this casing is squeezing another shaggy dog from me. |
| 05:09 |
Xiong |
Perl has a good test harness, with an ok() you can call if the test should succeed and even not_ok() if it should fail. |
| 05:10 |
hecks |
Lua's error is good enough since Importing Is Execution in lua |
| 05:11 |
Xiong |
A perler sent me his test script (to instruct me in the Right Stuff)... in which he defined his own calls directly to the harness, overriding ok() and its many flexible friends. He named these ok(), OK(), and Ok(). |
| 05:12 |
hecks |
I can imagine this is perfectly normal to a perler |
| 05:12 |
Xiong |
Okay? |
| 05:13 |
hecks |
After all, perl's entire purpose is to interpret any gibberish as a valid program |
| 05:17 |
Xiong |
Nobody should commit such stuff to a disk file. I appreciate flexibility when it stays in the buffer. |
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| 05:18 |
hecks |
what if it's a ramdisk |
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| 05:20 |
Xiong |
So much for the new client. :( |
| 05:22 |
Xiong |
So yeh haha but I jyst want to mine, process, and build without my environment ripping open its belly to strangle me with its fecal spaghetti. |
| 05:27 |
Xiong |
So ,99VanessaE,99 you have put your finger on the hinge point. MT devs, at least in core and technic, seem neither to want to fix long-standing issues nor accept NIH fixes. We can PR all day but I see no alternative to a fork. And you're very right that this is a step usually regretted. What solution don't I see? (It's easy for me to not see.) |
| 05:40 |
hecks |
forking or replacing a mod is not a big deal, for your kind of problems, just making the mods you want would be enough |
| 05:41 |
hecks |
a better tech mod would be very welcome and mtg mods are pretty trivial to make (but hard to maintain) |
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| 06:12 |
Wikiwide |
Horses (see whinny? ) spawn where grass is. Where do other animals spawn? |
| 06:18 |
Sveta |
I'd like to check the source, but I can't find it in a web page |
| 06:22 |
Wikiwide |
And does Minetest by default include rabbits, or is there a mod for that? |
| 06:25 |
Emerald2 |
I think I've seen rabbits before, from a mod. |
| 06:25 |
Emerald2 |
Oh yeah and we used to feed them lava orbs and they'd turn homicidal. :D |
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| 06:26 |
Wikiwide |
Did they get red eyes and sharp horn, as well? ;-) |
| 06:26 |
GreenDimond |
Red eyes, yes |
| 06:26 |
GreenDimond |
and sharp pointeh teeth |
| 06:27 |
Emerald2 |
Do you remember which mod that was, GD? |
| 06:28 |
GreenDimond |
mobs_animal |
| 06:31 |
Wikiwide |
Black bunny? ;-) Or Al-mi'raj? |
| 06:34 |
Wikiwide |
Where do the rabbits spawn?.. I think there is mobs_animal installed already, but need to check. |
| 06:37 |
Emerald2 |
afaik rabbits spawn on grass along with sheep, cows and horses. Boars in savannah. |
| 06:38 |
Wikiwide |
Any special conditions?.. Need to check whether mobs_animal is installed. |
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| 07:20 |
Xiong |
Yes 9,99hecks,99; modding is the thin edge of the wedge: the thinnest is patching existing mods. I'd like to talk about replacing some... I'm a big believer in collaboration as a counterweight to ego. And yes that's where to start. |
| 07:22 |
Xiong |
I also believe in planning ahead... maybe overplanning: always a risk. I think it's wise to sketch out the way ahead. Better than going full speed into a dead end. |
| 07:23 |
Xiong |
For instance, I need to see what digilines can do, how much of it overlaps mesecons. |
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| 07:26 |
Xiong |
For another, check Joe's TechPack: https://github.com/joe7575/techpack/wiki and https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19784 |
| 07:27 |
Xiong |
Looked good at first but it's very rough. I still wonder if it might be a better jumping-off point. Haven't been able to make it run yet! |
| 07:30 |
Emerald2 |
Wikiwide, I don't think so? |
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Xiong |
? |
| 08:41 |
Xiong |
I remember the cute lil bunnies... tasty eating. I want to say dirt-with-grass also. Not as common as sheep. |
| 09:11 |
Xiong |
Okay, I guess I know one reason I ignored digilines before; it deps on mesecons. So definitely not a replacement. |
| 09:14 |
Xiong |
I have yet to figure out a general, reliable rule for attaching two nodes with mesecons. Technic can be a bit funky but it's just a matter of learning which faces contain dummy ports, which pipeworks, and which cable ports. That can be fixed with better textures. |
| 09:14 |
Xiong |
Ah well. |
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| 15:13 |
Elon_Satoshi |
hello! |
| 15:13 |
Elon_Satoshi |
I just noticed that carbone NG hasn't been changed since 2015 :/ |
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JDCodeIt |
Hi All, I wondered if there was a plan to create some utility function in the system - like vector extras, but including some missing lua functions - e.g. deep copy of a table with metadata |
| 15:32 |
JDCodeIt |
I see a lot of modders copying big blocks of code with def's and just changing a few entries to make a subtle change, but this could be a lot less code with deep copy, and easier to maintain |
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MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Slippery: Do not apply when swimming (#8198) ba5a9f2 https://git.io/fhHp5 (2019-02-10T16:04:04Z) |
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adventure |
https://github.com/minetest/minetestmapper/issues/71 ... wondering if anyone knows what my problem is. |
| 16:07 |
sfan5 |
sounds like a bug in the postgres backend |
| 16:18 |
adventure |
I've added a comment with a backtrace obtained by running under gdb and then interrupting before the program crashes. |
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adventure |
Running this command: "SELECT posX, posY, posZ FROM blocks;" in the psql prompt uses 51% memory and crashes as well. Looking in the SQLite implementation, this command seems to have some limiting on it? I'm not very familiar with SQL. |
| 16:34 |
adventure |
(I'm trying to test the indivual database commands from psql to see if they work or not.) |
| 16:35 |
sfan5 |
maybe psql just stores whatever data is asked for way too inefficiently |
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adventure |
I don't think the data is ever getting to psql or minetestmapper. The function DBPostgreSQL::execPrepared isn't returning to caller. I'm pretty sure the problem could be the statement itself, just based on my limited knowledge. |
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adventure |
Just found https://github.com/adrido/minetest-mapper-cpp ... "Optionally, avoid reading the block list from the database (dramatically speeds up generating maps of small parts of large worlds)" ... here's hoping it works. |
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argyle77 |
Hi! If there are errors or omissions in the minetest developers wiki, is it possible for me to edit it? |
| 18:12 |
Krock |
... don't leave man |
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MinetestBot |
paramat: Feb-10 14:10 UTC <Fixer> does that grass grow in snowy forest beaches? https://i.imgur.com/tZcQ8rn.png |
| 19:30 |
MinetestBot |
paramat: Feb-10 14:11 UTC <Fixer> another screen https://i.imgur.com/2yJAymn.png |
| 19:30 |
MinetestBot |
paramat: Feb-10 14:12 UTC <Fixer> coords of v7 location https://i.imgur.com/vm997qG.png |
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paramat |
!tell hecks your PR is delayed due to lack of core dev time and feature freeze, not because of my review, i've had no objections to it since 25 sept. you're making an excessive fuss about it, it's normal for core devs to have issues with a contribution and other core devs will do this too, so please don't focus on me, please? =) |
| 20:20 |
MinetestBot |
paramat: yeah, yeah |
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rubenwardy |
~karma Ruslan1 |
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ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Ruslan1 has neutral karma. |
| 20:23 |
rubenwardy |
... |
| 20:23 |
rubenwardy |
~karma rubenwardy |
| 20:23 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Karma for "rubenwardy" has been increased 2 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 2. |
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entuland |
noice |
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entuland |
~karma entuland |
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ShadowBot |
entuland: entuland has neutral karma. |
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| 21:39 |
MinetestBot |
[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Beds: Do not require red wool to craft beds 7f68777 https://git.io/fhQfE (2019-02-10T21:38:58Z) |
| 21:47 |
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| 22:03 |
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| 22:37 |
kaeza |
Remind me, is there an option to show the crosshair on Android? |
| 22:38 |
cheapie |
Not sure if there are any mesecons devs in here, but the ltc4000e does a similar thing to the new "lightweight interrupts" (that is, it uses node timers to time things in an emulated Luacontroller) but supports multiple interrupts being set at once. My code is here if anyone wants to look at it and/or try to integrate something like it into mesecons: https://cheapiesystems.com/git/ltc4000e/tree/init.lua#n233 |
| 22:39 |
cheapie |
To put it simply, I shove all the pending interrupts into the node metadata, and then set a node timer for when the next one should fire. |
| 22:39 |
Ruslan1 |
Am I doing anything wrong |
| 22:41 |
GreenDimond |
No, Ruslan1, someone was just checking peoples' karma is all. |
| 22:41 |
GreenDimond |
kaeza: Not in 0.4.17.2, 5.0.0 should though. |
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| 22:43 |
Ruslan1 |
Ok |
| 23:03 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Consistent HP and damage types (#8167) ffb17f1 https://git.io/fhQJh (2019-02-10T23:03:26Z) |
| 23:04 |
kaeza |
GreenDimond: cannot find anything in this build (stu's latest, 3fce27e). |
| 23:09 |
GreenDimond |
kaeza: You're right. The PR wasnt merged and was removed from the 5.0.0 milestones recently. |
| 23:09 |
kaeza |
:/ |
| 23:10 |
kaeza |
Thanks anyway. |
| 23:14 |
kaeza |
GreenDimond: can you link to the issue? |
| 23:14 |
kaeza |
Er, PR. |
| 23:14 |
GreenDimond |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7865 |
| 23:20 |
kaeza |
Thanks again. |
| 23:47 |
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