IRC log for #minetest, 2016-10-31

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00:57	erstazi	Hello all, using Minetest 0.4.14 and my player is acting as if the left mouse button is stuck and keeps hitting. Mouse isn't stuck and tried shutting down and reopening with no avail. Thoughts?
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01:18	erstazi	Had to go back to an old bug. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2770 << It applies to Mac OS X however I am using Debian. Fixed the problem. Sorry for the noise.
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03:36	MinetestBot	[git] lhofhansl -> minetest/minetest: Optionally disable optimization that causes underwater and cave rendeâ€¦ e1842ed https://git.io/vXt7u (2016-10-30T23:35:55-04:00)
03:39	swift110	hmm
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06:15	swift110	i need help installing tutorial on windows 7
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07:32	stiell	Is there any way to disable mouse control of the viewing direction? I'm using a gamepad and would like to have the mouse cursor free at all times.
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08:40	kaeza	stiell, as far as I know, there's no gamepad support in Minetest. so you must be using something like JoyToKey or antimicro
08:40	stiell	kaeza: there is in master. No config support, though, so one has to modify source files.
08:42	kaeza	uh, that's new
08:43	kaeza	so I guess the answer is patch the sources to do what you want :)
08:59	PureTryOut[m]	ooh I was wondering how to get that to work...
08:59	PureTryOut[m]	is any gamepad support? so for example DS4 and DS3 as well as Xbox?
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09:19	JamesTait	Good morning all! Happy Monday, and happy Hallowe'en! ðŸ˜ƒ ðŸ‘» ðŸŽƒ
09:20	PureTryOut[m]	JamesTait (IRC): ooh you're here as well?!
09:23	PureTryOut[m]	are you at every project that has a Lua API? :p
09:23	PureTryOut[m]	or every Minecraft-like related projects that use Lua?
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09:24	JamesTait	PureTryOut[m], it's mostly the Minecraft-like part that qualifies. ðŸ˜ƒ
09:24	PureTryOut[m]	haha ok
09:24	Hijiri	he's not in #lua, even though lua has a lua API
09:24	PureTryOut[m]	good call Hijiri (IRC)
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11:04	MinetestBot	[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest: Lua voxelmanip: Add optional buffer param for 'get param2 data' 70e2df4 https://git.io/vXqZJ (2016-10-31T10:59:38Z)
11:05	MinetestBot	[git] sofar -> minetest/minetest: Core.rotate_and_place: Remove unused call to get_look_pitch() 380a4b6 https://git.io/vXqZU (2016-10-31T10:55:36Z)
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13:56	sfan5	PureTryOut[m]: please tell me you're adding the (IRC) manually
13:56	sfan5	because that looks horrible
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14:13	tailot	hi all, How to convert a map v6 to v7?
14:14	PureTryOut[m]	sfan5 (IRC): lol no. I use the Matrix plugin for Weechat which adds that to the autocompletion
14:14	PureTryOut[m]	you should all just stop using that inferior protocol if you want to get rid of that ;)
14:15	PureTryOut[m]	or I should just use a different Matrix client but meh
14:15	sfan5	that's a pretty shitty design desicion
14:15	sfan5	tailot: you can't
14:15	PureTryOut[m]	I agree
14:15	PureTryOut[m]	I didn't made the plugin though ;)
14:15	PureTryOut[m]	although it's Lua so I could probably change it
14:15	Amadin	Hi all. I need replace on map generation nodes near water, how i can check nodes nearest water?
14:16	tailot	@sfan5 :-(
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14:17	sfan5	tailot: why do you want to do that even?
14:17	PureTryOut[m]	I don't know exactly, but you could look how the farming plugin does it for making soil wet Amadin (IRC)
14:17	Amadin	i mean get nodes names
14:17	tailot	sfan5: add the savannah biome
14:17	Amadin	PureTryOut[m] on map generation?
14:18	sfan5	hm
14:18	sfan5	tailot: you can change the map generator to v7 afterwards but there will be rough "cuts" in the landscape
14:18	PureTryOut[m]	amadin (IRC): eeuh idk on map generation. farming does it when the player hoes the dirt
14:19	PureTryOut[m]	on map generation you're not sure the block next to it even exists yet I would think, but idk anything about map generation tbh
14:19	tailot	sfan5: how to change the generator?
14:19	sfan5	map_meta.txt change mg_name
14:20	tailot	tyy
14:20	sfan5	but don't say i didn't warn you
14:20	sfan5	it won't look nice at places where old and new are next to each other
14:20	Amadin	It possible for mob spawn (mobs:spawn_specific("slimes:lavabig", {"default:lava_source"},{"default:lava_flowing"}, 4, 20, 30, 5000, 8, -32000, -64))
14:20	Amadin	so i think it possible for node placing too
14:21	sfan5	Amadin: that is some mod specific example
14:21	tailot	sfan5: ok thanks
14:21	sfan5	look into the code of the mobs mod how they do it
14:21	Amadin	ok
14:22	PureTryOut[m]	I was about to say, since when does Minetest have a mob API?
14:22	Amadin	mobs-redo
14:22	PureTryOut[m]	about that, why doesn't Minetest have a mob API? has just no one made it yet?
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15:28	Amadin	What mean symbol "#" in loops?
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15:37	rom1504	what loop
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16:04	Calinou	Wuzzy: do you know notable server admins that use More Blocks?
16:04	Calinou	is it stable enough to be released as 1.0.0?
16:04	Calinou	I'm asking because in https://github.com/minetest-mods/moreblocks/issues/50, Debian maintainers would like a stable release for a package
16:04	Calinou	I think it's stable enough to release as 1.0.0, but documentation is lacking
16:05	Wuzzy	!?!?!?!?! DEBIAN? ?!?!?!?!?!
16:05	Calinou	(should be documented on wikiâ€¦ but that can be done for later releases)
16:05	Wuzzy	OMFG hell freezes over
16:05	Wuzzy	Debian is actually packaging a minetest mod. This is the last day. Hell freezes over. Christmas and Easter are on the same day (and Halloween!) Impossible
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16:06	Calinou	Wuzzy: they've been doing so since 2013!
16:06	Wuzzy	I don't know any server admin which uses it. However, I am the wrong person to ask because I am not on many servers around.
16:06	Calinou	but the version of More Blocks they include is from 2013
16:06	Wuzzy	ahhhhh
16:06	Calinou	they never updated it
16:06	Wuzzy	okay, everything is back to normal
16:06	Wuzzy	this is typical Debian xD
16:07	Wuzzy	congrats, this is one of many Debian packages which is seriously out of date
16:07	Wuzzy	hmmm I have not seriously used moreblocks so far, only for fooling around and testing
16:07	Wuzzy	at least I did not encounter crashes
16:08	Wuzzy	I think the circular saw would make more sense as seperate mod
16:08	Wuzzy	the decor nodes seem to be alright.
16:08	Calinou	yeah, it should have been kept as separate mod
16:08	Wuzzy	however, I did not test all the 1000's of special slabs
16:08	Calinou	making More Blocks more modular would be great but I don't have time and all :(
16:09	Calinou	would likely break compatibility too
16:09	Wuzzy	why
16:09	Calinou	we can have aliases but that's about it
16:09	Wuzzy	you forget LBMs
16:10	Wuzzy	i think you'll need an LBM, but it can be easy: just use minetest.swap_node
16:10	Wuzzy	since the block logic stays the same
16:11	twoelk	http://wiki.minetest.net/images/0/02/Modsonservers.png <-as of 30 July 2016
16:11	Calinou	thanks, More Blocks is still quite popular :p
16:11	fireglow	wow, didn't know irc was so popular
16:12	twoelk	ask sfan for newer stats
16:12	Wuzzy	damn
16:13	Wuzzy	i hoped to see hudbars in this list
16:13	twoelk	http://wiki.minetest.net/File:Modsonservers.png <- older versions
16:15	Wuzzy	I hope hudbars will overtake hud one day. :)
16:16	Wuzzy	What is wieldview?
16:17	Calinou	viewing wielditems of other players in the 3D world
16:17	Wuzzy	strange, i cant find the wieldview mod
16:17	Calinou	it's part of the 3D_armor modpack
16:17	twoelk	the table includes counts how many players are on a server that uses the mod so mods used on popular servers wheigh in heavier
16:17	Wuzzy	ah
16:17	twoelk	in the old versions simply the number of servers was counted
16:17	Wuzzy	and where is the raw data?
16:18	Wuzzy	how was the data collected?
16:18	twoelk	forgot, ask sfan5 :-D
16:18	twoelk	its data from the server list
16:19	Wuzzy	Calinou: I don't know if moreblocks is ready for release. But so far I have not found serious issues for a long time. I might need more playtesting.
16:20	Wuzzy	Calinou: Before releasing 1.0.0, you should definitely add screenshot.png (3:2 PNG)
16:21	Calinou	ok
16:21	Calinou	Wuzzy: which dimensions are preferred? 300Ã—200?
16:21	Calinou	I will try making a cool banner :p
16:21	Wuzzy	yes
16:22	Wuzzy	but it can be larger
16:22	Calinou	600Ã—400 then
16:22	Wuzzy	just keep the aspect ratio
16:22	Calinou	so that Retina displays are fine with it
16:22	Wuzzy	but make sure it is a screenshot primarily, please
16:22	Calinou	ah, it must be a screenshot?
16:22	Calinou	which kind of screenshot would it be?
16:23	Wuzzy	in-game of course
16:23	Wuzzy	i suggest to place your blocks all over the place so that as much as possible blocks can be seen
16:23	Wuzzy	take mtg_plus as example
16:24	Wuzzy	or use texture pack screenshots as inspiration
16:24	Wuzzy	Calinou: Guess my favourite block from moreblocks. you have 3 tries. :)
16:24	Calinou	yeah but the blocks need to be recognizable
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16:24	Calinou	I'll probably feature 5-6 blocks or so
16:24	Calinou	super glow glass?
16:25	Wuzzy	no
16:25	Calinou	trap stone?
16:25	Wuzzy	no
16:25	* twoelk	votes for tiles
16:25	Calinou	checkers?
16:25	Wuzzy	no
16:25	Calinou	:('
16:26	Wuzzy	It's the cactus brick.
16:26	Calinou	haha
16:26	Calinou	back when Minetest was so poor in content that we had to use cactus blocks as a dye
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16:29	Wuzzy	hmm I think moreblocks is stable. but please ask other people as well.
16:30	Wuzzy	one thing which bothers me is the super glow glass. as far i know using light level 15 is considered bad practice by core devs atm
16:30	Wuzzy	but i am not sure if it will be fixed later
16:31	Calinou	it was changed to 14 IIRC, not sure
16:31	Wuzzy	Calinou: Did you know that falling nodes can fall through and into trapstones?
16:32	Wuzzy	i dont think Minetest has measures for much customization for blocks like these
16:32	twoelk	wasn't the recipe for the stone with the decorative square on it conflicting with some other mod?
16:32	Wuzzy	oh yeah, recipe conflicts. an endless source of trouble. :(
16:33	Wuzzy	this is mostly minetest's fault because the crafting system is very unflexible
16:33	Wuzzy	but i do not known of which stone are you talking of
16:33	Wuzzy	Stone from Minetest Game can be â€œcraftedâ€ by smelting, i dont see conflicts
16:34	Wuzzy	Calinou: You might want to run a crafting recipe checker on your mod.
16:34	Wuzzy	Also, I recommend luacheck
16:35	Calinou	https://github.com/minetest-mods/moreblocks/commit/ab2c63270f9289de717ccaf0aa21f0b871b7bc78
16:35	Calinou	yes, fixed
16:35	Wuzzy	especially to avoid leaking globals
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16:36	Wuzzy	I spotted one â€œleakedâ€ global variable
16:36	Wuzzy	its gui_slots in circular_saw.lua
16:36	Wuzzy	or does gui_slots come from another mod? then its ok
16:36	Calinou	I doubt it comes from another mod
16:37	Calinou	problem is, should we make such changes close from a release? it might break things
16:37	Calinou	or might break other mods
16:37	Wuzzy	then it should be local. Mods should try to avoid polluting global namespace
16:37	twoelk	uhm the stone crafted by putting 8 stones in the same pattern as crafting an oven. Might be resolved though. Was some protection mod iirc
16:38	sfan5	updated those stats -> http://wiki.minetest.net/File:Modsonservers.png
16:39	Wuzzy	Calinou: Wow!!! moreblocks just hit rank #2
16:40	Wuzzy	Calinou: I can recall a 4Ã—4 receipe for quarter slabs. was it from moreblocks? or am I just mixing things up?
16:42	Wuzzy	Calinou: OK, locale/template.txt is outdated, sorry
16:42	Wuzzy	e.g. All-faces Jungle Tree is missing
16:42	Calinou	intllib is dead anyway
16:43	twoelk	sfan5: no irc, moreores and mobs? interesting
16:43	Wuzzy	Calinou: No.
16:43	sfan5	i just deleted the .csv
16:43	sfan5	one second, twoelk
16:43	Wuzzy	don't let the â€œ0.1.0â€ in the forum thread deceive you.
16:43	Wuzzy	developent actually happens. I have no idea why they dont release for YEARs... :(
16:44	Wuzzy	afaik git version of intllib is fine
16:44	Calinou	it's broken by design
16:44	Calinou	translations should be done client-side
16:45	Calinou	with user preference
16:45	Wuzzy	yes, you are totally right.
16:45	Wuzzy	i have posted an issue about this
16:45	Wuzzy	But until this feature finally comes, people have already translations ready :-)
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16:46	Wuzzy	intllib is fine for singleplayer. just dont use it on server
16:46	Wuzzy	if mod translation appears, it may just need little work. in the best case, all you'd need to do (as modder) is to replace the intllib boilerplate
16:48	sfan5	twoelk: irc 20th, moreores 21th, mobs_animal (highest ranked) 86th
16:48	twoelk	strange
16:50	Wuzzy	sfan: What about hudbars and hbhunger?
16:50	twoelk	the mobs used on servers must be much more fragmented among different mods than I thought
16:50	Wuzzy	sfan5: What about hudbars and hbhunger?
16:51	Wuzzy	sfan5: or do you even have the full list? :)
16:51	sfan5	hudbars 73th
16:52	sfan5	hbhunger 117th
16:52	sfan5	Wuzzy: here's the whole list https://kitsunemimi.pw/i/c30af56f2e825d33.csv
16:52	Wuzzy	thx
16:53	Wuzzy	twoelk: Yes mobs are extremely fragmented. try making a subgame with many different mobs from differents mods. its very hard
16:53	Wuzzy	i hope people will stop forking entire mob apis and instead just extend existing apis
16:54	Calinou	mobs should be in minetest_game, so that people stop making mob mods
16:54	Calinou	:)
16:54	Wuzzy	lol
16:54	Calinou	seriously it's been 5 years we have a mod API
16:54	Wuzzy	Minetest Game is not the answer to everythiing
16:54	Wuzzy	Minetest first needs much improvement of entities
16:54	sfan5	well maybe we should just have one mobs mod that works nicely
16:54	Calinou	everyone and their dog is complaining about the lack of mobs in minetest_game
16:54	sfan5	and other mob mods instead of reinventing the wheel depend on that
16:55	Wuzzy	no, Minetest Game will not stop multiple mob apis from existing
16:55	Wuzzy	different mobs apis have different goals, this is OK
16:55	Wuzzy	what I just dislike is that people fork an entire API just for adding one mob and don't even change the API
16:56	Wuzzy	the first step is a clear seperation of API and mobs
16:57	Wuzzy	the earliest attempt was mobapi, but this mod got forgotten somehow
16:57	Wuzzy	Luckily, now even Mobs Redo has a seperation.
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16:57	Wuzzy	you can now just use the Mobs Redo API and are not forced to use the default mobs
16:57	Wuzzy	this is good
16:58	Wuzzy	but the more serious problem is engine support
16:58	jin_xi	lol, as if it was possible to have a mob mod working nicely ^
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16:58	sfan5	what's the engine missing?
16:58	Calinou	more optimization :P
16:58	Krock	and kittens
16:58	Calinou	more prediction possibilities
16:58	Calinou	(knockbackâ€¦)
16:59	Wuzzy	there need to be many engine improvements before decent mobs become even possible. First of all, entities are very buggy, especially at high speeds. collision boxes cannot be rotated. there is no knockback
16:59	Wuzzy	yeah, and more prediction possibilities, right
16:59	Calinou	rotated collision boxes make no sense
16:59	Calinou	cylinder boxes would though
16:59	Calinou	but cylinder boxes are not really needed
16:59	Calinou	this is a voxel game, not ARMA 3
16:59	Krock	does irrlicht even have native support for round shapes?
16:59	Wuzzy	what about cars?
16:59	Calinou	I think so
16:59	jin_xi	Krock: wut
16:59	jin_xi	ofc
16:59	Calinou	we're talking mobs here
16:59	Calinou	not cars
17:00	Calinou	mobs don't even need to collide with other mobs or players, see Minecraft
17:00	Wuzzy	cars are implemented as entities, of ccourse
17:00	Calinou	a simple "push out" mechanic can be provided though
17:00	Krock	lol, then it's simply not implemented into Minetest. Open an issue!!!!
17:00	Wuzzy	i dont care about minecraft
17:00	Wuzzy	IIRC for all points i mentioned there are issues
17:01	Calinou	make your own voxel game with Godot :]
17:01	jin_xi	an idea i had in the back of my head now for a while is this: let mt create a second, simpler mesh which only cares about solidness of nodes and is optimized for use with collision detection for mobs and particles and the like
17:01	Calinou	so few new open source game projects nowadays :(
17:01	Wuzzy	OK lets throw years worth of work away and start at 0. lol
17:02	Calinou	jin_xi: possible, but not in the spirit of a voxel game
17:02	jin_xi	why not?
17:02	jin_xi	that mesh follows the nodes of the 'real' one
17:02	Calinou	also such boxes can't be rotated by design
17:02	Calinou	there's a big problem if you start rotating boxes according to player/entity input
17:02	Wuzzy	Calinou: We have meshnodes. Sacrilege!!! Heresy1!!1
17:02	Calinou	a player might penetrate an entity's box and inverselyâ€¦
17:02	Krock	Wuzzy, minetest is already 0. :P
17:02	Calinou	it's up for people to use meshnodes right, Wuzzy :P
17:02	Wuzzy	mini-lol
17:03	Wuzzy	hmmm what may help to clear up the mobs jungle is to write down a list of mods and dependencies
17:03	jin_xi	i just think it would be nice. actually i should look at it again as i already have it working for particles but so far have only generated such collision meshes on demand
17:03	Wuzzy	i think some people already did in the wiki. the page is just outdated...
17:04	jin_xi	but maybe it would be simple enough to just do that when genning meshes anyway
17:04	Wuzzy	i think if i would implement new mobs, i would just use Mobs Redo's API.
17:04	Wuzzy	but i am not sure yet.
17:04	jin_xi	this would mean you could use irrlichts collision detection, which works nice and for all shapes and meshes
17:04	Calinou	Wuzzy: a well-put voxel game could make Minetest well obsolete actually
17:05	Calinou	the "melting pot" aspect of Minetest is often criticized :P
17:05	jin_xi	well mt melts my pot for shure
17:05	Wuzzy	Minetest does not neccessary mean melting pot. it depends on what the community does with it.
17:06	Wuzzy	create a carefully designed subgame and ignore all existing mods. it is possible already
17:06	Wuzzy	:P
17:07	Wuzzy	I think the â€œmelting potâ€ criticism does not really apply
17:08	Calinou	the user interface of Minetest leaves a lot to be desired though, most of it is C++ :(
17:08	Calinou	compare this to modern proprietary games
17:08	Wuzzy	yes, the UI sucks ass
17:08	Wuzzy	but "it's C++" is not an argument
17:08	Calinou	Doomsday has excellent UI, it's C++
17:09	Calinou	but in Minetest, have fun getting your PRs merged :)
17:09	Calinou	Doomsday has a leader, Minetest doesn't, too
17:09	PureTryOut[m]	Amadin: about the # in loops: putting # in front of a table gives the size back. so in loops it is used to make sure the loop goes as far as the list goes, and not any further
17:10	PureTryOut[m]	Calinou: the interface is in Lua though
17:10	twoelk	maybe all old one mob mods should be converted for mobs-redo (such as santa) and the old mods chucked into the old mods bin, eh area.
17:10	PureTryOut[m]	sure it's in the core instead of in a mod, but it's Lua
17:10	Wuzzy	one big problem I have with the Minetest community and Minetest itself that I feel like usability is greatly ignored or even frowned upon.
17:10	Wuzzy	It seems Minetest gravitates towards developers instead of actual players
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17:10	twoelk	and then the more complicated stuff of the better mobs mods added to mobs-redo
17:11	PureTryOut[m]	Wuzzy: I agree :/
17:11	Wuzzy	twoelk: good idea, but this implies that Mobs Redo is the best mobs mod. I have not evaulated all mobs mods so far. But nobody is stopping you to convert. :)
17:11	Calinou	PureTryOut[m]: the GUI itself (theming) is done in C++
17:11	Calinou	Irrlicht doesn't offer a lot in its default GUI system sadly
17:11	PureTryOut[m]	that's why I think something like the main menu should be done in mods, a UI mod perhaps. so that other developers can make it user-friendly, instead of having to edit the core itself
17:11	twoelk	then a nice api docu written and an attack on mt-core started bashing the mobs api at all devs
17:12	PureTryOut[m]	Calinou: huh idk then
17:12	Calinou	<Wuzzy> one big problem I have with the Minetest community and Minetest itself that I feel like usability is greatly ignored or even frowned upon.
17:12	Calinou	hence: make your own
17:12	Calinou	I'm sure it would be worth the effort actually, judging the multiplayer Minetest userbase :P
17:12	Wuzzy	if i remember there are some C++ libraries for easy GUIs
17:12	jin_xi	enjoy your wontadd
17:12	Wuzzy	mygui for example
17:12	Wuzzy	hahahhhahahahaha
17:12	Calinou	Wuzzy: they're either ultra bloated or too limited
17:12	Wuzzy	Sad :-(
17:13	PureTryOut[m]	Calinou: create your own :D
17:13	Wuzzy	minetests formspec system needs more widgets
17:13	Calinou	PureTryOut[m]: I have game development plans with Godot, so maybe
17:13	Krock	Wuzzy, hehe.. thumbs war in pull #4703
17:13	Wuzzy	I think we could write 10000 sentences starting with "Minetest needs" xd
17:13	Wuzzy	unsurprisingly for a â€œ0.â€ version
17:14	PureTryOut[m]	lol
17:14	PureTryOut[m]	Minetest needs to give mods the ability to listen to keypresses
17:14	Wuzzy	already possible. kinda
17:14	PureTryOut[m]	then implement the default controls in a mod, and move the button naming issue to there :p
17:14	Wuzzy	omg NO!
17:14	Calinou	yeah, there's also the problem of forever 0.x
17:15	Calinou	I'd also actually assume the Minecraft clone aspect
17:15	Hijiri	revolution is permanent
17:15	Wuzzy	one thing I really hate is the â€œit can be done in a mod, therefore no core supportâ€ argument xD
17:15	Krock	Hijiri, we need your thumbs in pull 4703
17:16	Wuzzy	it is sometimes justified but i think it is used often as a lame-ass excuse
17:16	Calinou	there could be a compatible fork of Minetest
17:16	PureTryOut[m]	well some stuff should be done in a mod tbh, but right now I find it vague what should and what not
17:16	Calinou	like Freeminer in its early days
17:17	PureTryOut[m]	Calinou: https://github.com/avamander/minefix
17:17	Calinou	but it's always tricky to maintain an up-to-date fork
17:17	PureTryOut[m]	Minitest was promising originally, but abandoned
17:17	Wuzzy	Oh god, so many thunbs up for Aux1
17:18	Wuzzy	Please please please dont rename the Use key to Aux1. What have I started?
17:18	PureTryOut[m]	I'd love Minetest to be a perfect Minecraft clone
17:18	PureTryOut[m]	Wuzzy: I couldn't care less what it's called in code, but in user interface, god no Aux1
17:18	Wuzzy	Yes.
17:18	Calinou	yeah, "Aux1" means nothing
17:18	PureTryOut[m]	for gods sake developers, stop trying to make this game nonappealing to non-technical players
17:19	PureTryOut[m]	s/game/engine, otherwise devs will get angry with me :p
17:19	Wuzzy	Welcome into my world
17:19	Wuzzy	Here's the issue: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4703
17:19	Wuzzy	oops, PR
17:19	Calinou	PureTryOut[m]: the advanced settings menu is bad too, and basic settings menu lacks things like mouse sensitivity or display gamma
17:19	Calinou	(which Minecraft has! and makes perfect sense, even Quake 1 had those)
17:19	PureTryOut[m]	yap
17:20	PureTryOut[m]	that's why I would love client-side modding to be merged. I hope it eventually gets support for changing the interface from a mod, so we can fix it ourselves :p
17:20	Wuzzy	why is the advanced settigns menu bad? it has some bugs but in general I think it is good
17:20	Wuzzy	it was a long needed addition
17:20	twoelk	nope, please no mc clone, steal everything good from mc and create something better with all the goodies from WOW, GTA, Die Siedler, Chess and (insert own favorite game)
17:21	Wuzzy	Yes :D
17:21	PureTryOut[m]	wait is advanced settings different from normal settings?>
17:21	Wuzzy	"steal" the good stuff, ignore the bullshit
17:21	Wuzzy	and maybe add own ideas
17:21	Wuzzy	thats how many games are actually made XD
17:21	Calinou	Minecraft has a lot of good ideas honestly
17:21	PureTryOut[m]	I'm gonna "steal" everything from Minecraft. using Minetest people can just extend that :p
17:22	PureTryOut[m]	so yeah Calinou if you're any good with Lua, come help us out https://github.com/avamander/minefix :D
17:22	Calinou	not really good in Lua, sorry
17:22	PureTryOut[m]	you can learn though!
17:22	Calinou	I brought Godot up because it's very easy to use
17:22	Calinou	it has its own language, GDScript, which is Python-like
17:22	Calinou	but with 200 lines of code you can create full games
17:22	PureTryOut[m]	meh I like Lua :p
17:23	Calinou	writing game logic in C++ makes little sense today :p
17:23	Calinou	lots of devs do it in C# now with Unity for example
17:23	Wuzzy	what is the argument for that?
17:23	Calinou	ease of writing?
17:23	PureTryOut[m]	ugh C#
17:23	Calinou	ease of debugging
17:23	PureTryOut[m]	well at least .NET core seems a bit promising, but god no Mono
17:23	Calinou	recent Mono is ok
17:24	Calinou	it's MIT-licensed now
17:24	Wuzzy	but its C# and .NET, this means trouble for GNU/Linux
17:24	PureTryOut[m]	in my experience Mono works like shit on Linux systems
17:24	Hijiri	when will we get a decent game engine for haskell
17:24	Calinou	all the .NET + Linux problems seem made up to meâ€¦
17:24	Wuzzy	I don't trust Mono, Microsoft has its fingers in it
17:24	Wuzzy	no, I speak from experience
17:24	PureTryOut[m]	and yeah screw Microsoft :p
17:24	Calinou	still, Godot is going to support C# optionally and that's a good decision overall
17:24	PureTryOut[m]	it's probably part of their EEE technique
17:24	twoelk	PureTryOut[m]: go here "http://wiki.minetest.net/List_of_Subgames" press the sorting on the "type" column and scroll to mc-clones for severall attempts of mc-clones
17:24	Calinou	C++ is not, though, it seems
17:24	Wuzzy	mono is shit. if you want cross-platform support, avoid .NET and C#. sorry but its true :(
17:25	Krock	s/Microsoft/Micro$oft/
17:25	Calinou	Wuzzy: Java is better then?
17:25	Calinou	well, we could bind Go to Godot
17:25	Hijiri	with java you don't need to emulate windows syscalls at least
17:25	Wuzzy	In terms of cross-platform support, Java is definitely better.
17:25	Calinou	Java's font rendering on Linux is not something you want to see for example
17:25	Calinou	or the GUI in general
17:26	Calinou	also, Java is Oracle :)
17:26	Calinou	and Go is Google :)
17:26	Wuzzy	i dislike this â€œlet's all program in <generic new hipster programming language> because its coolâ€ thinking
17:26	PureTryOut[m]	twoelk: thanks! interesting
17:26	twoelk	I'm for NQC
17:26	Wuzzy	I call it â€œHype-driven developmentâ€. :D
17:27	Hijiri	haskell has been around since the early 90s
17:27	Calinou	Wuzzy: did you ever write C++ and found it pleasing?
17:27	twoelk	its all about bricks anyways
17:27	Hijiri	let's all program in that
17:27	Calinou	I doubt it, not even C++14 makes it nice to write
17:27	Wuzzy	I see it like this: Use the programming language which suits your needs best and has resonable support (i.e. not obscure, no licensing/compat issues, etc)
17:28	Calinou	still, any statically-typed, threadable language could be bound to Godot
17:28	Calinou	this includes Rust, Go, Nim, Java, C#
17:28	Wuzzy	Every programming lanaguages has its quicks. part of learning programming is getting used to them
17:28	Calinou	writing game logic in a low-level language is more often than not self-hurting
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17:29	Wuzzy	I heard Unity3D is not the only game engine. xD
17:29	Calinou	well, UE4 uses C++, a lot of people bitch about it and want something simpler
17:29	Calinou	which is why Unreal.js is a thing
17:30	Wuzzy	I think C++ is a reasonable programming language. Java, too.
17:30	Calinou	complete lack of a package manager = reasonable to you? :/
17:31	Wuzzy	what are you talking about?
17:31	Calinou	there is no established standard for C++ package management. that sucks a lot
17:31	Wuzzy	a package manager is not part of programming languages
17:31	Calinou	it is part of its ecosystem
17:31	Calinou	and it's often make or break for people, see npm :)
17:31	Wuzzy	i would count this under "auxaliarry tools"
17:31	Calinou	the tooling is pretty important in choosing a language :P
17:32	Wuzzy	well, if it doesnt suit your needs, dont use it. :P
17:32	Wuzzy	as I said, use the language which best suits your needs
17:32	Wuzzy	also, what exactly do u mean with "package manger" in regards to programming language?
17:32	Calinou	which is, not C++
17:33	Calinou	something that installs dependencies for you when you want to compile a library or a software
17:33	Wuzzy	something like Pacman, APT, .deb packages?
17:33	Calinou	(no, apt-get is not one of them)
17:33	Calinou	(because Windows)
17:33	Wuzzy	0install?
17:33	Wuzzy	why do packagae managers have to be language-specific, anyway?
17:33	Calinou	MSYS2 is the closest, along with Cygwin, but that doesn't support MSVC
17:34	Wuzzy	for script languages i can almost understand it
17:34	* twoelk	wished someone made a Minetest plugin for this : https://bitbucket.org/lloigor/eihort
17:34	Calinou	people in system package managers aren't reactive enough, that's why
17:34	Wuzzy	Calinou: For Debian, true. For Arch Linux: not really true. :=)
17:34	Calinou	not everyone uses Arch, sorry
17:35	Wuzzy	yeah. it sucks that Debian packages suck so much
17:35	Wuzzy	its more a community problem
17:36	Wuzzy	anyway, i have learned 1 thing: when entering a project, it is best to just deal with the programming languages which are already used and stop bitching about how your faaviourite langauge is superiour :D
17:36	Wuzzy	The only exception is PHP, of course. :D
17:36	Calinou	that's true
17:36	Calinou	I find PHP is perfectly acceptable in what it does
17:36	Calinou	it's easy to write terrible PHP, but you can write good PHP too
17:36	BrandonReese	Come on, why is everybody downing PHP :)
17:37	Calinou	it's also relatively fast
17:37	Calinou	(PHP 7)
17:37	Calinou	(and soon, PHP 8 with a JIT)
17:38	twoelk	a minetest plugin for this https://github.com/Captain-Chaos/WorldPainter
17:38	twoelk	would be nice
17:38	fireglow	sounds nice
17:39	twoelk	as minetest lacks possabilities of designing maps
17:39	Wuzzy	every language has its flaws, but PHP is exceptional for being fractally broken and poorly designed.
17:39	Wuzzy	https://wiki.theory.org/YourLanguageSucks#PHP_sucks_because
17:39	Wuzzy	http://www.phpsadness.com/
17:40	Wuzzy	:D
17:40	Calinou	ok, what do you suggest then?
17:40	Calinou	JavaScript where everything breaks every 3 months?
17:40	Calinou	Python where you can bake your coffee while the pages load?
17:40	Calinou	Ruby where the last developer in your team died?
17:40	Calinou	:\|
17:40	Wuzzy	xD
17:40	Calinou	there is no real alternative
17:40	Calinou	Go/Rust have a too small community in Web development, while fast, it's not practical either
17:41	Hijiri	haskell for web dev imo
17:41	Wuzzy	haskell is a cool language. i personally like it. what makes me sad that there are not many libs to choose from. especially for game development :(
17:42	Calinou	I don't get why people like Haskell, really
17:42	Hijiri	yeah, if you want to do games in haskell you will probably be stuck with some bindings that are at best a step up from the C bindings
17:42	Calinou	it's the vim of programming languages
17:43	Hijiri	I can feel clever and program in line noise
17:43	Hijiri	oh wait, perl has that niche already
17:44	Wuzzy	Hedgewars is funny. It is programmed in 4 languages. XD
17:44	Wuzzy	Haskell for server, C++ (with Qt) for the main menu, Pascal for the game engine and Lua for scripting
17:44	Hijiri	I think haskell makes the barrier to abstracting things out very low, and also it's not dynamically typed
17:44	Hijiri	refactoring is usually very nice
17:46	Wuzzy	Anyway. Just because Minetest is C++ does not mean making a good GUI is impossible
17:46	Wuzzy	btw is mygui really bloated? i dont know much about it
17:46	Wuzzy	but probably no chance to convince devs of using mygui anyway xD
17:48	* twoelk	mentions XUL and runs to watch from a distance what happens
17:49	jin_xi	crickets
17:52	Calinou	Wuzzy: MyGUI is part of the OGRE family, so yeah
17:52	Krock	ogre is an asshole
17:52	Krock	sorry, offtopic :3
17:52	twoelk	well his best friend is an ass, so ...
17:53	Krock	twoelk, "ogre you asshole" is a music group
17:53	Krock	google finds things I never knew :3
17:54	twoelk	well the other does shreckliche music .D
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20:27	hoodedice	MinetestBot!
20:27	MinetestBot	hoodedice!
20:27	hoodedice	sfan5, where is Minetestbot's chan?
20:28	sfan5	##minetestbot
20:28	garywhite	MinetestBot!
20:28	MinetestBot	garywhite!
20:34	DI3HARD139	Is anyone else having issues with the updated IRC mod crashing server instance?
20:40		PinkKitty joined #minetest
20:40	PinkKitty	hi
20:41	PinkKitty	how do ichange my nickname
20:42	sfan5	on IRC? using /nick your_new_nick_here
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21:14	xordspar0_	Is it possible to render blocks in different shapes (e.g. tetrahedrons) with a mod?
21:16	thePalindrome	Yeah
21:16	thePalindrome	You just need to use the "mesh" render type
21:16	PureTryOut[m]	or nodebox
21:18	xordspar0_	Sweet, thanks!
21:18	MinetestBot	[git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest_game: Add fuel slot to furnace listring d92034e https://git.io/vXmy3 (2016-10-31T14:17:38-07:00)
21:18	Calinou	nodeboxes don't allow non-AABB shapes
21:18	Calinou	(axis-aligned bounding box)
21:18	Calinou	so, use a meshnode
21:18	Calinou	and supply your own mesh in .obj, .b3d, .x, or .md2 format
21:19	Calinou	(preferred format is .b3d, then .obj, then .x
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21:19	PureTryOut[m]	ooh different type of shape sorry ;)
21:22	MinetestBot	[git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest_game: Xpanes: Use opaque texture for top+bottom of iron bar (#1357) 56d6eae https://git.io/vXmSe (2016-10-31T14:20:26-07:00)
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21:40	sofar	xordspar0_: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12005
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22:49	dat_	Minetest complains regarding 'Failed to load and run /home/thomp/.minetest/mods/mobf_core/mobf/init.lua'. However, the file is present and readable. I'm a bit mystified. Being new to minecraft, I'd be grateful for any suggestions...
22:51	thePalindrome	Does it mention any syntax errors?
22:51	dat_	...belay that last request for suggestions... I see that minetest provides a stack trace w/some details regarding the issue...
22:51	dat_	Apologies...
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22:56	PureTryOut[m]	s/minecraft/Minetest
22:58	transhuman	hi! will minetest run in a browser?
22:58	sfan5	no
22:59	sfan5	dat_: usually when you get that message the problem is the and run part, not the load part
23:03	thePalindrome	transhuman: It's possible to use asm.js or something of that ilk, but I highly recommend you don't
23:03	thePalindrome	Minecraft's "browser mode" was actually the same as the "desktop mode"
23:03	transhuman	ok thanks for your help
23:04	thePalindrome	Any other questions?
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23:12	dat_	sfan5: thanks - you hit the nail on the head
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23:49	twoelk	is the voxelands website down?

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