| Time |
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| 01:20 |
Pilcrow |
hello, #minetest! |
| 01:21 |
VanessaE |
hi. |
| 01:23 |
Pilcrow |
is there a way for a minetest mod to create a new directory? I know io.open can create files, but I'm tossing around an idea that could potentially make a LOT of files, and I'd like to keep them seperated out - in a directory within the world folder - if possible... |
| 01:24 |
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| 01:24 |
Pilcrow |
hello est31 :) |
| 01:28 |
Pilcrow |
I mean, I know I could do something like os.execute("mkdir " .. dirname), but that comes with its own problems. plus, does os.execute even work any more? I know there were some security changes talked about. not sure if they were implemented. |
| 01:29 |
est31 |
they arent merged yet |
| 01:29 |
est31 |
so what do you exactly want to do? |
| 01:32 |
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| 01:35 |
Pilcrow |
est31: well, I've been thinking about making a certain mod that will potentially create a LOT of seperate files (io.open, etc). I'd like my mod to create a directory within the world folder, and then create the new files in there. it's just an organisation thing; if there's no easy way to do this, I can make do without... |
| 01:36 |
est31 |
every file allocates around 4 kb |
| 01:36 |
est31 |
know what you do :) |
| 01:36 |
est31 |
and no, there is no better way than os.execute |
| 01:36 |
est31 |
currently |
| 01:37 |
est31 |
what exactly are those files for Pilcrow? |
| 01:43 |
Pilcrow |
est31: basically my idea is to create something like a simplified version of minecraft's ME system (from the Applied Energistics mod). I want to make a server node you can fill with hard drive items. these hard drives should be percieved to "contain" items (i.e. if someone steals a drive and sticks it in their own server, they have your items). |
| 01:43 |
Pilcrow |
since, afaik, there's no way to store metadata within an inventory item, I want the drives to each have a unique ID and a file associated with that id (I'm planning to register the drives as tools so that a wear value can be used as the id)... |
| 01:45 |
est31 |
you are abled to set metadata |
| 01:45 |
est31 |
https://github.com/minetest-technic/technic/blob/master/wrench/init.lua |
| 01:45 |
est31 |
^ thats a good example |
| 01:46 |
est31 |
I'd suggest to do that instead of creating files |
| 01:47 |
Pilcrow |
but only a node can have metadata, right? you can't make, for example, a chest item that is opened/accessed from within your inventory and doesn't need to be placed as a node... right? |
| 01:48 |
Pilcrow |
hmm, I just looked at your link. maybe I'm wrong. |
| 01:53 |
Pilcrow |
But I also have another reason for doing it as files: I want the servers to be accessed remotely by terminal nodes that may not even be in the same chunk (compare to the storage boxes in the pokemon games, with the server being at bill's house or something). This means that the server node, and any drives therein, may not actually be in a loaded chunk. In order to still be able to change the files, I think I'd need a detached inve |
| 01:55 |
Pilcrow |
Which would mean saving into files in order to prevent the loss of all those detached inventories on server shutdown... |
| 01:58 |
est31 |
still I suggest making one single table |
| 01:58 |
est31 |
s/still/then/ |
| 01:58 |
RealBadAngel |
items can have meta too |
| 01:58 |
est31 |
which is saved on server shutdown |
| 01:59 |
RealBadAngel |
many technic tools use items meta to store data |
| 01:59 |
RealBadAngel |
metadata can be a table, able to store anything |
| 02:00 |
RealBadAngel |
with items you dont have to worry about saving/loadin your data |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
..but you have to worry about /clearobjects and related |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
better to store the meta in a node instead, and use it to call forth whatever entities you need. |
| 02:01 |
RealBadAngel |
only then item is on the ground |
| 02:01 |
RealBadAngel |
*when |
| 02:01 |
RealBadAngel |
same applies to dropped node btw |
| 02:02 |
Pilcrow |
RealBadAngel: est31 already pointed out the fact that items can have metadata, by linking me to the wrench in technic. Still, thanks for your input. As stated, there's more than one reason I am thinking to use files. Though using one table, as est31 suggests, might be best anyway. |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
engine has big problems with entities again lately |
| 02:03 |
est31 |
ghost entities bug is ols |
| 02:03 |
est31 |
old* |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
indeed. |
| 02:04 |
RealBadAngel |
pilcrow, you can also try this: https://github.com/minetest-technic/datastorage |
| 02:04 |
RealBadAngel |
it allows to save player related data in single file (per player) |
| 02:05 |
Pilcrow |
although, since items can have metadata, I will probably end up storing the drive ids as metadata within the items, rather than using a wear value (since certain things may apply extra wear and screw up the drive) |
| 02:05 |
est31 |
weird stuff |
| 02:05 |
est31 |
what do I need to enable too to get pvp working? |
| 02:05 |
est31 |
i have set enable_pvp = true |
| 02:05 |
est31 |
something else too? |
| 02:06 |
est31 |
damage is enabled |
| 02:06 |
VanessaE |
that's all you should need |
| 02:06 |
est31 |
and yet when players punch each other, nothing happens |
| 02:06 |
VanessaE |
jeez |
| 02:08 |
Pilcrow |
RealBadAngel: that datastorage mod looks like it'd be very useful for this project. thanks! :) |
| 02:09 |
Pilcrow |
just a random question related to that link though: does depends.txt even need to exist if it's blank? :P |
| 02:11 |
VanessaE |
no. |
| 02:11 |
VanessaE |
if you don't depend on any other mods (not even default), you can omit depends.txt entirely if you want. |
| 02:13 |
Pilcrow |
VanessaE: that's what I thought, thanks. I was just confused for a minute; the file exists in the datastorage mod RBA just linked, but it contains only whitespace... :P |
| 02:17 |
Pilcrow |
anyways, I'm bookmarking the technic wrench and datastorage pages for future reference. I'm still in the planning stages for this mod at the moment, but hope to have something to show for it soon. I've actually thought about this mod quite a bit; I even put placeholder functions for it into my hoverbot mod, which was started much earlier... the currently useless "Send item to DigiBank" and "Retrieve item from DigiBank" commands we |
| 02:33 |
Pilcrow |
speaking of hoverbot, VanessaE, I've stopped trying to modify or use the mesh for now, as my heat problems keep getting worse in the other laptop (it often shuts down when I'm trying to edit the model), and I still haven't gotten Blender to work in this one. I'm sticking with the nodeboxes until I have money for some thermal paste... :\ |
| 02:33 |
VanessaE |
damn |
| 02:34 |
VanessaE |
well a tube of AS-5 is only about $8 or so |
| 02:34 |
Pilcrow |
$8 is a lot for someone with no job; I need to save all I can for gas and cat food, lol. |
| 02:35 |
Hijiri |
what about the bloodthirst of heatsinks |
| 02:35 |
VanessaE |
oh heh |
| 02:35 |
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| 02:35 |
Pilcrow |
Hijiri: um.. what? |
| 02:35 |
Hijiri |
i-it's a meme |
| 02:36 |
Pilcrow |
Hijiri: heh, not one I've ever heard, but ok. :P |
| 02:37 |
Hijiri |
it's not usually worded like that |
| 02:37 |
Hijiri |
heatsinks have been known to give people cuts |
| 02:37 |
Pilcrow |
ahh. that's what you meant. |
| 02:37 |
* Pilcrow |
is slow tonight :P |
| 02:39 |
exio4 |
hi |
| 02:40 |
Hijiri |
hi |
| 02:40 |
Pilcrow |
hello exio4! |
| 02:40 |
Pilcrow |
huh. I think newegg is having problems. it won't load for me. :P |
| 02:42 |
exio4 |
how is everything going Pilcrow / Hijiri |
| 02:42 |
Hijiri |
it has been going sleepy |
| 02:42 |
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| 02:44 |
Pilcrow |
exio4: eh, some bad things have been going on for me, but I'm getting through it. on a positive note, I'm finally starting on a mod I've been thinking about forEVER... :P |
| 02:44 |
exio4 |
sad thing for both |
| 02:44 |
exio4 |
today I woke up at like 4:30AM |
| 02:45 |
Pilcrow |
exio4: today *I* woke up at like 4:30PM! :P |
| 02:45 |
exio4 |
rude |
| 02:46 |
Pilcrow |
but, I also went to bed around 8AM... |
| 02:47 |
* Pilcrow |
miiight be nocturnal... :P |
| 02:48 |
exio4 |
I went to around 7PM |
| 02:50 |
Pilcrow |
wow. I haven't gone to bed that early since middle school! |
| 02:52 |
Pilcrow |
even in high school, I'd usually go to bed around 10 or 11 (and get up at 7AM; the bus came at 7:45)... |
| 02:52 |
exio4 |
that's because you are not a lazy ass |
| 02:53 |
Pilcrow |
exio4: no, I am definitely a lazy ass, lol. just also a night person. The sunlight! it BURNS! haha |
| 02:54 |
exio4 |
did I ever say I did anything at day? |
| 02:54 |
exio4 |
I also woke up at 11AM yesterday |
| 02:54 |
Pilcrow |
:P |
| 02:54 |
Pilcrow |
"are you ready to get up at the crack of noon?" -- Jack Black |
| 02:55 |
VanessaE |
"We leave at dawn! .... Noonish." -- John Candy |
| 02:55 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 02:55 |
exio4 |
it's also late |
| 02:56 |
Pilcrow |
only 10pm here. |
| 02:56 |
exio4 |
I think it's nearly midnight here |
| 02:56 |
exio4 |
I don't know |
| 02:57 |
exio4 |
I just assume it is late if I am tired |
| 02:57 |
Pilcrow |
heh. |
| 02:57 |
Pilcrow |
if I did that... it'd always be late. :P |
| 02:58 |
exio4 |
I like you |
| 02:58 |
exio4 |
Pilcrow: I am not tired _ALL_ the time |
| 02:59 |
exio4 |
just past 1PM and before 11AM |
| 02:59 |
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| 03:01 |
Pilcrow |
right now, my tiredness is on the back-burner, as I sit here trying to decide if my "hungry" is stronger than my "lazy" yet... |
| 03:02 |
Pilcrow |
^ does this happen to everybody? :P |
| 03:02 |
VanessaE |
yep |
| 03:02 |
VanessaE |
all. the. time. |
| 03:02 |
VanessaE |
usually lazy wins :) |
| 03:06 |
Pilcrow |
lol. Sometimes "obsessed with <insert project name here>" wins out over all, though. I once was working on a linux project all day and then a friend came over and I passed out in front of them. Turns out I hadn't eaten or drank anything in about 12 hours. I wasn't trying to starve, just didn't even notice... :P |
| 03:09 |
VanessaE |
that's me with homedecor of late. |
| 03:09 |
VanessaE |
wish I could go 12 hours without eating or drinking. maybe I'd finally lose this weight :P |
| 03:16 |
Pilcrow |
VanessaE: jeez. I just looked at homedecor. Looks like you've been making about one commit per hour. Seems like a lot of work... :P |
| 03:16 |
VanessaE |
Pilcrow: heh, well not quite THAT busy but yeah, I've been busting ass on it :) |
| 03:17 |
VanessaE |
thankfully, the vast majority is done |
| 03:18 |
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| 03:18 |
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| 03:18 |
Pilcrow |
well, I just saw the fact that you've personally made 11 commits in the last 11 hours (and kilbith has done a lot in that time as well). So yeah... @_@ |
| 03:20 |
Pilcrow |
(oh, my mistake; kilbith has done 1 commit in that 11 hour timeframe. still, a lot of work has been done) |
| 03:22 |
VanessaE |
a lot of what's been done lately is thanks to kilbith's help either directly or indirectly |
| 03:24 |
Pilcrow |
yeah, I figured that. not trying to belittle anyone's work... :) |
| 03:24 |
Pilcrow |
speaking of homedecor, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger, doesn't it? not that that's a bad thing; it's one of the better 'big' mods to have installed, anyway... |
| 03:25 |
Pilcrow |
s/mods/modpacks/ |
| 03:25 |
* Pilcrow |
remembers when it used to be a single monolithic mod... :P |
| 03:26 |
VanessaE |
actually, |
| 03:26 |
VanessaE |
it has shrunk significantly in total size |
| 03:26 |
VanessaE |
kilbith and I went through and put it on diet :) |
| 03:27 |
VanessaE |
something like 300 textures dropped in the past ~3 months |
| 03:27 |
Pilcrow |
oh really? did you get rid of nodes, or just simplify things? |
| 03:27 |
VanessaE |
simplifying things, eliminating redundancy, using mesh nodes where possible to improve texture usage, etc. |
| 03:29 |
Pilcrow |
ah. I didn't actually check the file sizes; I meant bigger in node-count, lol |
| 03:29 |
VanessaE |
oh heh not really |
| 03:29 |
VanessaE |
it's probably a wash |
| 03:30 |
VanessaE |
2+node-sized mesh eliminates redundant "head"/"tail"/"bottom"/"right" etc nodes, then some new unique node is added later |
| 03:30 |
VanessaE |
etc |
| 03:30 |
VanessaE |
the whole pack is 10MB now |
| 03:31 |
VanessaE |
(not including git history) |
| 03:31 |
Pilcrow |
oh. yeah. didn't even think about that. perhaps I should've just said more useful, rather than bigger. ;) |
| 03:31 |
FreeFull |
VanessaE is secretly a 1mx1mx1m block |
| 03:31 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 03:32 |
VanessaE |
wow. 3 MB of textures, 2.6 MB of models |
| 03:32 |
VanessaE |
another 1.6 MB of "extra fonts" for signs_lib |
| 03:34 |
FreeFull |
I wish I could play Android Minetest on my tablet without the screen randomly turning black and then the app eventually closing |
| 03:34 |
VanessaE |
no idea about that, FreeFull |
| 03:35 |
technomancy |
developing on android is a huge PITA; I'm not surprised they have a harder time finding hackers to improve it vs the PC version |
| 03:36 |
FreeFull |
At least anyone can develop for Android, for iOS you need OS X |
| 03:36 |
technomancy |
sure; could be worse |
| 03:38 |
Pilcrow |
Yeah I have my own gripes with Android Minetest, too. Wish I could play it on my nVidia Shield and actually use the built-in gamepad. Speaking of which, is there any support in minetest for pc game controllers and the like yet? i.e. using a joystick to turn the camera? |
| 03:38 |
VanessaE |
nope, don't think so |
| 03:38 |
FreeFull |
I don't think there is any built in support at all |
| 03:38 |
FreeFull |
Although you can use software to translate joystick input into mouse movement |
| 03:39 |
FreeFull |
I don't think PC Minecraft has any support either |
| 03:40 |
Pilcrow |
well, I know there was some discussion about usb gamepads when the remappable keyboard controls were implemented, but it was all future-talk. maybe some day... |
| 03:43 |
MinetestBot |
[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest: Mapgen v5/6/7: Cleanup node resolver and aliases 02805af http://git.io/vUu8Z (2015-05-12T04:40:53+01:00) |
| 03:43 |
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| 03:47 |
Pilcrow |
whelp, time for food. |
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VanessaE |
bbl |
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| 04:14 |
MinetestBot |
[git] est31 -> minetest/minetest: is_player() is no player-only function b4c3ff6 http://git.io/vUu0w (2015-05-12T05:52:49+02:00) |
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| 06:24 |
TheWild |
hello |
| 06:24 |
TheWild |
are we still messing with licence problem of gsmapper? |
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Thron |
Hi all, what is the BEST IRC client for androind phones? |
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| 08:28 |
TenPlus1 |
Hi folks |
| 08:29 |
TenPlus1 |
would using swap_node be technically faster than add_node since it doesn't touch metadata ??? |
| 08:30 |
nore |
I think it isn't |
| 08:30 |
TenPlus1 |
was just curious since metadata in node was kept... |
| 08:32 |
TenPlus1 |
:) always looking for ways to speed up things ... |
| 08:41 |
TenPlus1 |
cya |
| 09:09 |
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| 09:09 |
JamesTait |
Good morning all; happy International Nurses Day! 😃 |
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* CWz |
thinks Redcrab server is down for good. both worlds are gone |
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| 13:34 |
ADFENO |
Hi, how do I reference all nodes or entities from a given mod? Is "modname:*" enough? |
| 13:34 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 13:34 |
RealBadAngel |
like defaut:wood for example |
| 13:35 |
ADFENO |
Let me see... Could I reference all itens from default mod as "default:*"? |
| 13:36 |
RealBadAngel |
not so easy |
| 13:36 |
RealBadAngel |
you should get list of all registered nodes and browse it |
| 13:37 |
ADFENO |
I'm trying to use "PlzAdm"'s clean mod to clear all entities from Simple Mobs [mobs]. |
| 13:38 |
ADFENO |
I have tried to open the server and do /clearobjects, but the server times out everytime, and I'm forced to terminate it (not to kill it, just terminate). |
| 13:42 |
sfan5 |
ADFENO: just wait until some time and try to connect later |
| 13:43 |
ADFENO |
Oh, thank you very much.... :D |
| 13:43 |
sfan5 |
the /clearobjects command keeps doing it's work even when you time out |
| 13:43 |
ADFENO |
Hm... |
| 13:45 |
ADFENO |
OK... (so good to know that, now I can sleep well), :D |
| 13:45 |
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| 13:45 |
ADFENO |
Thank you, thank you very much.... I must be going now... Bye... :D |
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CWz |
does minetest use TCP or UDP |
| 13:51 |
sfan5 |
udp |
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| 14:23 |
technomancy |
so if I'm making a toy OS for computers in minetest, is it completely tacky if files don't have permissions but only directories do? |
| 14:24 |
MinetestBot |
[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Default/mapgen: Add mapgen aliases for sandstone brick and sandstone brick stair, to enable sandstone dungeons ab4485f http://git.io/vU2U0 (2015-05-12T16:23:09+02:00) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] Novatux -> minetest/minetest_game: Fix problems with TNT 4bd1094 http://git.io/vU2ce (2015-05-12T16:53:04+02:00) |
| 14:53 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest_game: Make TNT respect on_blast, implement on_blast for some nodes 8bc8dd6 http://git.io/vU2cv (2015-05-12T16:32:52+02:00) |
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Sokomine |
sometimes it's annoying if some variables are local.... |
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* twoelk |
looks out of the window and thinks thinks the weather is annoying - it should be apple blossom weather not rainy wind |
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* Sokomine |
nods to twoelk |
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Krock |
c'mon forum moderators, there's some work to do |
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TheWild |
minetest.line_of_sight(pos1, pos2, stepsize) wtf? |
| 17:26 |
TheWild |
If you could do better math, devs, you could get rid of stepsize you know? |
| 17:28 |
exio4 |
Calinou: you are everywhere aren't you |
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Megaf |
!server Megaf |
| 17:52 |
MinetestBot |
Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 0/6, 0/2 | Version: 0.4.12-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 7ms |
| 17:52 |
Megaf |
o/ |
| 18:12 |
exio4 |
RealBadAngel: I can understand your thoughts on threading, multithreading is so painful in C++ that I wouldn't want it either |
| 18:13 |
Calinou |
viva Go/Rust :p |
| 18:13 |
exio4 |
lol Go |
| 18:14 |
exio4 |
Calinou: Go has a crappy static type system, and it doesn't help that much when it comes to multithreading |
| 18:14 |
exio4 |
but yeah, green threads are cool |
| 18:18 |
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| 18:19 |
exio4 |
Calinou: any reason to prefer Go? |
| 18:19 |
Calinou |
I don't know |
| 18:22 |
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| 18:26 |
est31 |
go has a garbage collector |
| 18:27 |
est31 |
which makes it a NIH of java |
| 18:28 |
est31 |
but yea threading is better |
| 18:28 |
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| 18:28 |
Calinou |
Go is native, though… |
| 18:28 |
est31 |
and that |
| 18:29 |
est31 |
but still garbage collectors require you to have tons of RAM |
| 18:29 |
est31 |
so its ok for companies like google who have their whole index in RAM |
| 18:30 |
est31 |
but not for devices where its RAM-critical |
| 18:31 |
Krock |
do memset on any pointer variable then it can use very much ram |
| 18:31 |
est31 |
? |
| 18:37 |
exio4 |
est31: garbage collector alone doesn't mean that |
| 18:38 |
est31 |
exio4, why? |
| 18:38 |
exio4 |
est31: and you could still have deterministic resourceswith a GC |
| 18:38 |
exio4 |
est31: how why? |
| 18:39 |
exio4 |
est31: having a garbage collector basically means you can rethink lots of things, and add lots of sharing when needed, too |
| 18:39 |
est31 |
exio4, have you read that blog post about garbage collectors on the mobile? |
| 18:40 |
est31 |
its basically mostly about gc on low ram environments |
| 18:40 |
exio4 |
which kind of garbage collectors were tried, and which kind of ... ah, well |
| 18:40 |
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| 18:40 |
exio4 |
I am pretty sure using a garbage collector with 32kb of ram available isn't going to end that well |
| 18:40 |
est31 |
exio4, http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/ |
| 18:41 |
exio4 |
ah, that post |
| 18:41 |
exio4 |
garbage collectors aren't slow by default |
| 18:41 |
exio4 |
just sayin' |
| 18:41 |
Calinou |
people should use FastClick.js |
| 18:42 |
exio4 |
people shouldn't use JS at all |
| 18:42 |
Calinou |
JS is love, JS is life |
| 18:42 |
exio4 |
JS is crap |
| 18:42 |
exio4 |
est31: that doesn't say anything |
| 18:42 |
exio4 |
est31: having a crappy language doesn't mean a GC is evil |
| 18:43 |
est31 |
gc is evil everywhere |
| 18:44 |
est31 |
why is JS crap |
| 18:44 |
exio4 |
because it's uni/dynamic typed, has weak typing, and forces you to do stupid things? |
| 18:45 |
est31 |
you mean === ? |
| 18:45 |
exio4 |
garbage collection sure is evil if you need hard-real-time-constraints on resources and memory (aka microcontrollers) |
| 18:45 |
exio4 |
est31: I am talking about the language as a whole, it's a bunch of nice concepts in a sea of stupid dumb things |
| 18:46 |
est31 |
exio4, still though, it has adoption, and very fast implementations |
| 18:46 |
Calinou |
dynamic typing makes stuff easier, especially for newcomers |
| 18:46 |
exio4 |
it doesn't |
| 18:46 |
exio4 |
it just means you don't catch errors |
| 18:46 |
Calinou |
did you take a look at ES6? |
| 18:47 |
Calinou |
https://babeljs.io/ to convert ES6 to ES5 (transpiler) |
| 18:47 |
exio4 |
but I will agree, a dynamic typed language to a stupid static type system is a fair fight where dynamic typed language wins |
| 18:47 |
exio4 |
transpiler is such a hipster word, too |
| 18:47 |
exio4 |
dude, it's just a compiler |
| 18:48 |
Calinou |
:D |
| 18:48 |
exio4 |
Calinou: ES6 doesn't offer anything worth it, AFAIK |
| 18:48 |
exio4 |
it's just adding silly things like "real" OOP to a language where OOP is the least thing it needs |
| 18:48 |
Calinou |
it makes the language much better, and makes CoffeeScript obsolete |
| 18:49 |
exio4 |
Javascript is obsolete tech still being used by people thinking it's cool and by the fact that you are forced to use it if you want to be a webdev |
| 18:49 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Novatux -> minetest/minetest: Add code to support raillike group names 75622c3 http://git.io/vUVsN (2015-05-12T20:48:55+02:00) |
| 18:49 |
exio4 |
node.js though, please, that doesn't need to exist |
| 18:49 |
exio4 |
Calinou: have you ever _tried_ to learn to program with a decent typed type system? and how long did it take to you to learn "to program" from scratch? |
| 18:50 |
Calinou |
I still haven't finished |
| 18:50 |
exio4 |
Calinou: how many months of "programming" did you need before you could say "I can write, somewhat, code that works and I can understand"? |
| 18:50 |
Calinou |
exio4, Node.js is async |
| 18:50 |
LittleJoe |
you never finish XD |
| 18:50 |
Calinou |
makes it very useful in some scenarios |
| 18:50 |
exio4 |
being async is really cool obviously |
| 18:50 |
est31 |
^ |
| 18:50 |
exio4 |
specially when that's just a library in your language |
| 18:50 |
Calinou |
which languages are better than JS to you? you really think Web pages should use C or Go? |
| 18:51 |
exio4 |
no, anything with a decent type system would do it |
| 18:51 |
exio4 |
Calinou: how long have you been programming |
| 18:52 |
Calinou |
maybe 5 years now |
| 18:52 |
TheWild |
should be: node.js is async (don't confuse with multithreading) |
| 18:52 |
exio4 |
Calinou: if you learn a whole new paradigm, you should expect not to learn it in a whole day, but maybe have to learn stuff for a whole year or so |
| 18:52 |
Calinou |
it takes 10 years to be a “good programmerâ€â„¢ :P |
| 18:52 |
exio4 |
TheWild: it's also not even concurrent |
| 18:52 |
exio4 |
Calinou: it doesn't |
| 18:52 |
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| 18:52 |
exio4 |
Calinou: you can be a good programmer after 5 years, or a shitty programmer after 25 |
| 18:53 |
exio4 |
TheWild: green threads are a decent solution for concurrency |
| 18:53 |
exio4 |
TheWild: guess what, Node.JS doesn't offer you green threads |
| 18:53 |
Calinou |
I don't spend 8 hours a day learning programming, that's all |
| 18:53 |
Calinou |
it's more a hobby currently, than a job |
| 18:53 |
Calinou |
I still wrote More Blocks :D |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:54 |
Calinou |
Lua is cool, but I understand it doesn't get bigger |
| 18:54 |
exio4 |
Calinou: which languages with static types do you know/have heard of (and tried to learn)? |
| 18:54 |
exio4 |
Calinou: my guesses are going to be languages with type systems that don't even try to infer things by default, right? |
| 18:55 |
exio4 |
Calinou: or languages without proper 'generics' or parametric polymorphism |
| 18:55 |
exio4 |
Calinou: also, with subtyping, which is extremely complicated |
| 18:55 |
Krock |
-> brainfuck |
| 18:55 |
est31 |
lol |
| 18:55 |
exio4 |
I said static types |
| 18:55 |
Krock |
you can make static stuff with brainfuck.. maybe |
| 18:55 |
est31 |
brainfuck is an assembler language |
| 18:56 |
est31 |
its no high level programming language |
| 18:56 |
* Krock |
shuts up |
| 18:56 |
exio4 |
Krock: do you know what it means to be "static" typed in this context? |
| 18:56 |
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| 18:57 |
Krock |
exio4, "int", "float",they're static |
| 18:57 |
exio4 |
Krock: ('a -> 'b) -> 'a list -> 'b list // (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] |
| 18:58 |
exio4 |
polymorphic types! yay! |
| 18:58 |
Krock |
dafuq |
| 18:58 |
exio4 |
polymorphic types is basically "for all a, this has type something" |
| 18:58 |
exio4 |
that means |
| 18:59 |
exio4 |
forall a. [a] -> [a] can unify with the types |
| 18:59 |
exio4 |
[Int] -> [Int] |
| 18:59 |
exio4 |
[Double] -> [Double] |
| 18:59 |
exio4 |
etc |
| 18:59 |
exio4 |
that also means the implementation can't do stupid things like first-element + second-element |
| 18:59 |
exio4 |
because it has to work on ANY type, [Bool] too, and what does it even mean to have + in Bool? |
| 19:00 |
Krock |
there might be some special situations... |
| 19:00 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Novatux -> minetest/minetest_game: De-duplicate code in doors mod in make_on_blast 81259e9 http://git.io/vUVlY (2015-05-12T20:55:46+02:00) |
| 19:00 |
exio4 |
Krock: like? |
| 19:00 |
nore |
<exio4>('a -> 'b) -> 'a list -> 'b list <-- yay! OCaml! |
| 19:01 |
exio4 |
ML syntax, yeah |
| 19:02 |
Krock |
exio4, good question. I know too less about those types but if you want to debug a bool, just output it :3 |
| 19:02 |
exio4 |
Krock: we have typeclasses for thatQ! |
| 19:02 |
exio4 |
Show a => (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] |
| 19:03 |
exio4 |
Krock: also, "printing" is a side-effect :p |
| 19:03 |
Krock |
God, please spare me from that |
| 19:08 |
MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Build and link gmp correctly on MSVC ecc514f http://git.io/vUVBO (2015-05-12T21:07:46+02:00) |
| 19:08 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Novatux -> minetest/minetest_game: Copy pos before giving it to on_blast because it can modify it; also remove a debug print that had nothing to do here aaa6c26 http://git.io/vUV47 (2015-05-12T21:03:02+02:00) |
| 19:11 |
exio4 |
est31: 'Fewer objects created mean less-frequent garbage collection, which has a direct impact on user experience.' |
| 19:12 |
exio4 |
est31: some garbage collectors are heavily optimized for things like 'short-term objects', and makes the posibility of "allocating" gigabytes of data per second extremely cheap |
| 19:12 |
est31 |
so exio4 you want to have a language where you cant create objects? |
| 19:15 |
exio4 |
Still not convinced? Let’s ask an actual Garbage Collection engineer. Who writes garbage collectors. For mobile devices. For a living. You know, the person whose job it is to know this stuff. |
| 19:15 |
exio4 |
that doesn't link to something that relates to what he is quoting |
| 19:15 |
est31 |
so? |
| 19:16 |
exio4 |
he linked to a post where the dude actually works on the concept of a garbage collector that doesn't suffer from the quote |
| 19:16 |
est31 |
ah ok |
| 19:16 |
est31 |
bad |
| 19:17 |
exio4 |
it's like |
| 19:17 |
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| 19:17 |
exio4 |
"A is bad, see this" |
| 19:17 |
exio4 |
link talks about "here's a 'solution' to A" |
| 19:17 |
exio4 |
(I know I know, you can't easily "solve" the problem, but still) |
| 19:18 |
est31 |
still gc can come in at bad moments |
| 19:18 |
exio4 |
est31: having a language where manual-ish management of resources is easy is what we want, not basically being "OMG IT SUCKS, LET'S REMOVE IT" |
| 19:18 |
exio4 |
est31: easy and correct, checked by our compilers |
| 19:18 |
est31 |
exio4, so you like rust then? |
| 19:19 |
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| 19:19 |
exio4 |
probably, haven't played with it that much |
| 19:19 |
exio4 |
est31: another thing |
| 19:19 |
exio4 |
garbage collectors are a fancy thing that _suffer_ from the fact that you can mutate things |
| 19:19 |
est31 |
how do you mean that? |
| 19:20 |
est31 |
you certainly have to mutate things |
| 19:20 |
est31 |
I mean OOP is all about that |
| 19:20 |
est31 |
(when we're in a java context) |
| 19:20 |
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| 19:20 |
exio4 |
generational garbage collection needs a hack to work with mutable data |
| 19:20 |
est31 |
interesting, tell me more |
| 19:21 |
exio4 |
as it assumes "new things" can only reference old things, and that old things can only be referenced by "older things" |
| 19:21 |
exio4 |
when you break that, the GC has to work harder |
| 19:22 |
est31 |
I guess there are multiple approaches to GC |
| 19:22 |
exio4 |
est31: there are |
| 19:23 |
est31 |
all of them share that weakness? |
| 19:24 |
exio4 |
it depends a lot on how they handle objects |
| 19:24 |
exio4 |
lemme try to find one of the original papers on generational GC |
| 19:32 |
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| 19:32 |
exio4 |
est31: http://web.media.mit.edu/~lieber/Lieberary/GC/Realtime/Realtime.html |
| 19:32 |
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| 19:32 |
exio4 |
est31: and http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.41.5815 |
| 19:34 |
est31 |
ah thanks |
| 19:35 |
est31 |
so according to that abstract, what you said affects mostly "generational gc" |
| 19:36 |
exio4 |
yes |
| 19:36 |
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| 19:37 |
exio4 |
the JVM has a generational gc, and most languages now go with those. as the logic behind them is pretty much "what applies to real world" |
| 19:37 |
exio4 |
having lots of mutable data means you need to deal a lot with corner-cases of it, though, it's still an improvement |
| 19:39 |
exio4 |
est31: if you want to see a small example of a generational GC being extremely fast, I have some example HS (microbenchmark) code that basically generates lots of garbage and also keeps data |
| 19:40 |
exio4 |
CPU time: 5.62s |
| 19:40 |
exio4 |
547,534,344 bytes allocated in the heap |
| 19:40 |
est31 |
still I wonder how you dislike dynamic typing on one hand and like gc on the other |
| 19:41 |
est31 |
I mean it requires people to know gc in order to be efficient |
| 19:41 |
exio4 |
guess the GC time (in %) and the real maximum "allocated memory at one moment" |
| 19:41 |
exio4 |
est31, those concepts are totally unrelated |
| 19:42 |
est31 |
whats bad about dynamic typing |
| 19:42 |
Jordach |
tl;dr exio is a troll |
| 19:42 |
exio4 |
that you can't assume anything about the code? |
| 19:42 |
exio4 |
and that you basically suffer from being forced to have TDD if you want to have shit that works? |
| 19:42 |
exio4 |
(TDD taken to an extreme, as needed for dynamic typing, is basically crap) |
| 19:44 |
est31 |
javascript hasn't been invented to run codebases with millions of lines of code |
| 19:44 |
exio4 |
(a small side-note, dynamic typing just means you can't easily refactor lots of code, unless you're kamikaze) |
| 19:44 |
est31 |
its been invented to play around with websites |
| 19:44 |
proller |
weekly lang comparsion evening 8) |
| 19:44 |
Jordach |
inb4 <PilzAadam> java best lang |
| 19:45 |
exio4 |
est31: most languanges weren't designed with more than "we need something working tomorrow" POVs |
| 19:45 |
exio4 |
if they were designed at all |
| 19:45 |
exio4 |
I am talking about Python, PHP, Javascript, [...] |
| 19:45 |
est31 |
I agree js more evolved than it was designed |
| 19:45 |
Jordach |
really? you're comparing tools that do the same function |
| 19:45 |
exio4 |
it has a small subset designed decently |
| 19:46 |
est31 |
exio4, ? |
| 19:46 |
est31 |
dont say asm.js |
| 19:46 |
exio4 |
est31: no, I am talking about having high order functions and basically some parts of it's way to do OOP, and whatnot |
| 19:46 |
exio4 |
but it's basically things disliked by the modern hipster that prefer ES6 classes |
| 19:47 |
exio4 |
prefers* |
| 19:47 |
est31 |
so you say js is good dependent on which features you use? |
| 19:47 |
exio4 |
no |
| 19:47 |
exio4 |
I am saying a relatively small subset of JS is decent, and I already said it previously |
| 19:48 |
exio4 |
it's a few good things in a sea of broken things |
| 19:48 |
est31 |
most languages are that way |
| 19:48 |
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| 19:48 |
est31 |
who wants to use wchar these days |
| 19:48 |
exio4 |
wut? |
| 19:49 |
est31 |
its a c type |
| 19:49 |
exio4 |
I know, but I am talking, how is it related? |
| 19:49 |
est31 |
perhaps it made sense at the time it was introduced, but now its just obsolete by unicode |
| 19:49 |
est31 |
its a bad language feature |
| 19:49 |
exio4 |
unicode doesn't specify any particular encoding? |
| 19:49 |
est31 |
every lang has that |
| 19:50 |
est31 |
those* |
| 19:51 |
exio4 |
has what? :p |
| 19:51 |
est31 |
bad features |
| 19:51 |
est31 |
ugly ones |
| 19:51 |
exio4 |
ah, obviously |
| 19:52 |
exio4 |
languages aren't perfect |
| 19:52 |
exio4 |
I am pretty sure we want something that doesn't suck that badly though |
| 19:55 |
TheWild |
goto |
| 19:56 |
exio4 |
goto makes sense in a language where you don't have tail-recursion |
| 19:56 |
exio4 |
:> |
| 19:56 |
est31 |
you mean arbitrary deep tail recursion? |
| 19:57 |
exio4 |
ehm, "arbitrary deep"? |
| 19:57 |
est31 |
c does have methods and such, so it knows the concept of recursion |
| 19:57 |
est31 |
however, the stack grows |
| 19:57 |
est31 |
every invocation |
| 19:58 |
exio4 |
est31: well, yeah, TCO is what I meant |
| 19:58 |
est31 |
with goto, the stack doesnt grow |
| 19:59 |
exio4 |
http://draketo.de/light/english/recursion-wins |
| 20:02 |
est31 |
TCO is a feature of the implementation, not the language |
| 20:02 |
est31 |
of course the lang can say "implementations must support TCO" |
| 20:02 |
exio4 |
the language may force a complaint implementation to support TCO |
| 20:03 |
exio4 |
if the spec doesn't allow you to rely on recursion, it means you can't write code that uses it and doesn't fuck up on "other compiler/interpreters" |
| 20:04 |
est31 |
depends on whether you write for a compiler or for a language |
| 20:05 |
exio4 |
yeah, but if it is just an optimization, that means you can't rely on it either |
| 20:06 |
exio4 |
because "oops, compiled without certain optimization, and now the code doesn't work after 130ms" |
| 20:07 |
est31 |
whatever |
| 20:07 |
exio4 |
http://draketo.de/light/english/free-software/tco-debug#sec-4 |
| 20:08 |
exio4 |
the only way to rely on an 'optimiation' that changes the asymptotic complexity that bad (from linear to constant), is that the specification of your language or your compiler ALWAYS do it, which normally isn't the case, |
| 20:09 |
est31 |
so then dont use TCO in c |
| 20:09 |
est31 |
and use loops instead |
| 20:09 |
exio4 |
that gets you to the first link |
| 20:09 |
est31 |
ah sorry not TCO but tail recursion |
| 20:09 |
exio4 |
Tail Call Optimization includes the tail recursion optimization |
| 20:10 |
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| 20:10 |
exio4 |
TCO is basically ``return f(x);'' can be replaced with a goto |
| 20:10 |
est31 |
yes but tail recursion optimization != tail recursion |
| 20:11 |
exio4 |
being tail-recursive if your language doesn't do TCO is pretty much useless |
| 20:11 |
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| 20:11 |
est31 |
so, that page basically sais that a simple for loop with an if is more complicated than throwing gazillions of modules and python-own concepts at a trivial problem? |
| 20:12 |
exio4 |
? |
| 20:12 |
exio4 |
it's an argument against modularity, in some sense |
| 20:12 |
est31 |
http://draketo.de/light/english/recursion-wins |
| 20:12 |
exio4 |
"a tail-recursive function isn't trivially converted into a loop" |
| 20:13 |
est31 |
modularity isn't always good |
| 20:13 |
exio4 |
? |
| 20:13 |
exio4 |
he is giving a small example of how a for loop is overly complicated in some sense |
| 20:13 |
exio4 |
and also harder to reason about |
| 20:14 |
exio4 |
and how it relies on lots of implicit state |
| 20:14 |
est31 |
that for loop is very easy to understand |
| 20:14 |
est31 |
the other code is just a lot of "use this cool python module" |
| 20:14 |
exio4 |
? |
| 20:14 |
est31 |
use-modules : srfi srfi-71 |
| 20:14 |
exio4 |
... ? |
| 20:15 |
est31 |
and then this senseless string-take |
| 20:15 |
exio4 |
; first get SRFI-71: multi-value let for syntactic support for what I |
| 20:15 |
exio4 |
; want to do |
| 20:15 |
exio4 |
est31: string-take and string-drop are pretty clear |
| 20:15 |
est31 |
yes |
| 20:15 |
exio4 |
take N characters from a string |
| 20:15 |
exio4 |
or drop N chars from a string |
| 20:15 |
exio4 |
and that is not a python module |
| 20:15 |
exio4 |
it's just a multi-valued let |
| 20:15 |
exio4 |
instead of doing let A = B; let C = D; let E = F; it is let A = B; C = D; E = F |
| 20:16 |
est31 |
ah I see |
| 20:16 |
est31 |
ok some sugar here |
| 20:16 |
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| 20:16 |
exio4 |
he said that in the comment |
| 20:16 |
est31 |
but still that sugar inside " for letter in text: " is in fact really cool |
| 20:16 |
est31 |
so he abandons it |
| 20:17 |
est31 |
and makes the code much more harder to read |
| 20:17 |
est31 |
also why is there that linebreak between process-text and : res |
| 20:17 |
est31 |
its just stupid code |
| 20:17 |
exio4 |
that's just his syntax |
| 20:17 |
exio4 |
you don't need that specific syntax |
| 20:18 |
exio4 |
and if what you're worrying about is that the syntax is too complicated.. |
| 20:18 |
exio4 |
I am talking about the semantics of it |
| 20:18 |
exio4 |
not if (a b) looks nicer than :a , b or not |
| 20:19 |
est31 |
I still dont like it |
| 20:19 |
est31 |
also, its not optimal |
| 20:19 |
exio4 |
what isn't optimal? |
| 20:19 |
est31 |
because there are two calls to string-take |
| 20:19 |
est31 |
which means extra overhead |
| 20:19 |
est31 |
it doesnt make it clearer at all |
| 20:19 |
est31 |
horribly ugly code |
| 20:20 |
exio4 |
that is not "production-code", it was code for showing a case where a for loop means relying on an implicit state change between loop calls |
| 20:20 |
exio4 |
est31: there shouldn't be "more" string-take calls than the ones in the loop |
| 20:21 |
exio4 |
est31: also, separate string-take 1; string-drop 1 is obviously not "lovely" as it could be, but it can be easily reduced to (x,xs) = some-"less-obvious-function-while looking-at-the-code-if-you-don't-know-the-languag-of-the-whole-paradigm" |
| 20:22 |
est31 |
state change based parsers are simple to understand |
| 20:22 |
exio4 |
are they? |
| 20:22 |
exio4 |
surely, if those are the ones you have used and know about |
| 20:22 |
exio4 |
it's obviously harder to learn than to use something you already kno |
| 20:22 |
exio4 |
w |
| 20:23 |
exio4 |
I have to go afk for a little bit |
| 20:23 |
est31 |
you know that method stuff is ok and nice |
| 20:23 |
est31 |
but the moment you want to change something about your parser, you get into problems |
| 20:24 |
est31 |
what you basically did is use the language's stack for simulating the " stack |
| 20:24 |
exio4 |
there's no language stack used |
| 20:24 |
est31 |
also works well for ( and { and such |
| 20:25 |
est31 |
I mean the " case is simple by just having one level you can go down |
| 20:26 |
est31 |
the command to go up is basically " again |
| 20:27 |
est31 |
yeah I agree it basically boils down to what you've learned and what you are accustomed |
| 20:40 |
exio4 |
est31: no, there's no go up or go down there |
| 20:40 |
exio4 |
est31: there's no nesting |
| 20:40 |
exio4 |
it's either 0 or 1 level |
| 20:40 |
exio4 |
being inside a string, or not |
| 20:40 |
exio4 |
a thing that could be helpful to catch there, is the \ |
| 20:41 |
exio4 |
inside a string you "escape" the next character |
| 20:41 |
exio4 |
that's a special condition that needs a little bit of care in the for loop |
| 20:41 |
exio4 |
in the tail recursive 'loop', it's just an if and recursing with the next "two characters away" instead of the next one |
| 20:43 |
exio4 |
ohh, neat |
| 20:43 |
exio4 |
I just realized this was a FSM |
| 20:43 |
exio4 |
(+ extra work) |
| 20:43 |
exio4 |
being inside a string, or not, being different functions |
| 20:45 |
exio4 |
encoding finite state machines with different tail-recursive function isn't a new thing either :D |
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| 20:57 |
TheWild |
minetest.line_of_sight seems to be poorly done - it accepts stepsize what isn't always perfect since it sometimes misses the nodes when line crosses their corners. |
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| 21:01 |
TheWild |
A nice implementation would be to calculate line-and-plane crossing points and then bring proper node positions. |
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| 21:05 |
TheWild |
No big idea for today that does not involve floating point multiplications/divisions, maybe tommorow. |
| 21:05 |
TheWild |
I'm sure it can be chopped down into just integer comparisions and additions |
| 21:06 |
TheWild |
especially if you're concerned about performance |
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| 22:10 |
kahrl |
est31: the way I read that article, it seems like the point is that once a parser gets more complicated, it should be split into lexer and parser |
| 22:11 |
kahrl |
which of course you can do in both an iterative and a recursive variant, so that distinction doesn't really matter |
| 22:15 |
MinetestBot |
[git] est31 -> minetest/minetest: Fix compiler warning about sign comparison b70e67d http://git.io/vUw1h (2015-05-13T00:04:30+02:00) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Default/mapgen: Add sandstone alias for sandstone biome detection dd34dff http://git.io/vUwQT (2015-05-12T23:31:38+01:00) |
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| 22:55 |
exio4 |
kahrl: the idea is that if it you do something (in this specific case, as an example) with a naive "loop", you end with somewhat complex (as-in, having to carry more mutable state on your head) algorithm than if you did it with a tail-recursive function, as the changes in the state are going to be explicit and also mean you can lookahead if needed, and/or do similar fancy things |
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| 23:10 |
kahrl |
exio4: well, I think he should have a used a different example because here he just ends up making a simple thing more complex than it needs to be |
| 23:18 |
exio4 |
yeah, I think that example isn't that nice |
| 23:18 |
exio4 |
if it was more concrete |
| 23:19 |
est31 |
yes, the example is bad |
| 23:25 |
exio4 |
well, is it? |
| 23:27 |
Hijiri |
which example? |
| 23:28 |
Hijiri |
(sorry I wasn't here for the conversation) |
| 23:28 |
est31 |
yes, I agree a for loop that spans thousands of lines has to be split up |
| 23:29 |
est31 |
even hundreds |
| 23:29 |
est31 |
but that example is too simple |
| 23:29 |
est31 |
then he throws this weird package in |
| 23:31 |
exio4 |
"weird package in'? he didn't? |
| 23:32 |
est31 |
that let a = b : c = d : e = f stuff |
| 23:32 |
exio4 |
Hijiri: http://draketo.de/light/english/recursion-wins |
| 23:32 |
exio4 |
est31: that's just syntatic sugar |
| 23:32 |
est31 |
its just not related to that issue at all |
| 23:32 |
exio4 |
the syntax is not related at all |
| 23:32 |
exio4 |
talking about syntax in a semantics discussion doesn't make sense either |
| 23:32 |
est31 |
I mean sure, he can install it in his own package if he wants |
| 23:32 |
exio4 |
it's his own syntax |
| 23:33 |
Hijiri |
exio4: thanks |
| 23:33 |
est31 |
but if he can't even write a blogpost without that package, then he's clearly a syntactic sugar junkie |
| 23:33 |
exio4 |
wtf? |
| 23:33 |
exio4 |
it's an alternative syntax for a lispy language |
| 23:33 |
exio4 |
the idea was that his code _works_ after you pass it thru the 'compiler' |
| 23:34 |
est31 |
usually when you talk about language features, you use a mostly "vanilla" configuration, not the one you're most comfortable with |
| 23:34 |
exio4 |
est31: ? |
| 23:34 |
est31 |
If he just even used pseudocode |
| 23:35 |
est31 |
so thats my first point |
| 23:35 |
exio4 |
would it have been better if he wrote that example code in Haskell? |
| 23:35 |
exio4 |
that's not a point |
| 23:35 |
est31 |
the second point is what kahrl said |
| 23:35 |
exio4 |
that's being annoying about unfamiliar syntax |
| 23:35 |
est31 |
does haskell even have something procedural as for loops? |
| 23:35 |
exio4 |
no, it doesn't |
| 23:35 |
exio4 |
I am not talking about the python code |
| 23:36 |
exio4 |
but the "tail recursive" code |
| 23:36 |
est31 |
that makes it even worse |
| 23:36 |
est31 |
when I read it I have the feeling that that person wants me to convince to use that sugar package |
| 23:37 |
est31 |
"look how convenient" |
| 23:37 |
exio4 |
?? I hope you are trolling |
| 23:37 |
exio4 |
that's not even close to the point he is discussing |
| 23:43 |
est31 |
no this time its serious |
| 23:44 |
est31 |
its like "and while we're on it, let's use ABC, which is completely unrelated" |
| 23:44 |
exio4 |
he wrote it in a language that supported the feature he was talking about |
| 23:45 |
exio4 |
I find that somewhat related |
| 23:45 |
est31 |
both were python |
| 23:45 |
est31 |
so why does he have to include that package? |
| 23:45 |
exio4 |
no, the second one isn't.. |
| 23:45 |
exio4 |
PPS: This example uses wisp-syntax for the scheme-examples to avoid killing Pythonistas with parens. |
| 23:46 |
exio4 |
http://draketo.de/light/english/wisp-lisp-indentation-preprocessor |
| 23:47 |
exio4 |
est31: are you still serious? |
| 23:47 |
est31 |
ah I see scheme |
| 23:54 |
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| 23:57 |
est31 |
what are "parens" |
| 23:57 |
Hijiri |
(((()))) |
| 23:57 |
est31 |
ah |
| 23:59 |
clever |
[] brackets |
| 23:59 |
clever |
{} braces |
| 23:59 |
est31 |
for me its "parenthesis" but nvm |
