| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 02:11 |
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| 03:54 |
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| 05:00 |
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| 07:40 |
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olliy joined #minetest-hub |
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| 11:30 |
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Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
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_Xenon joined #minetest-hub |
| 17:29 |
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DS-minetest joined #minetest-hub |
| 19:33 |
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homthack joined #minetest-hub |
| 19:58 |
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Conradish006 joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:45 |
MTDiscord |
<ChaosWormz> seems the voxellands website no directs to a scam site of the win an Iphone variety |
| 20:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> Voxellands is outdated |
| 20:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> I mean discontinued |
| 20:46 |
MTDiscord |
<ChaosWormz> I know |
| 20:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> does the irc bridge proper represent this ?????? |
| 20:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163533212516474/818948272604971078/Screenshot_2021-03-09_at_20.47.26.png |
| 20:49 |
* TommyTreasure |
wonders why #minetest-hub still requires irc members to be voiced, yet allows discord member with no restriction. hmmmmm, guess logic doesn't apply here anymore |
| 20:50 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> You assume that the Discord side has no restrictions |
| 20:50 |
TommyTreasure |
yup, i do |
| 20:51 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Well let it be known: Your assumption is false. |
| 20:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> yeah nah it takes well over a month to unlock it |
| 20:51 |
TommyTreasure |
well let it be known that i'm also against multicraft servers being in the announce list for minetest too |
| 20:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i just use this as a suitable bouncer replacement because i'm s/cheap/lazy/g as all hell |
| 20:52 |
TommyTreasure |
so, which of the #minetest-hub operators release the restriction for discord members? |
| 20:53 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> It's a bridge, so all restrictions for the bridge are on the Discord side |
| 20:53 |
TommyTreasure |
then why not voice all that join this channel? |
| 20:53 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Maybe you didnt read |
| 20:54 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> "It takes well over a month to unlock [this channel]" |
| 20:54 |
TommyTreasure |
maybe you shouldn't be a bit more polite |
| 20:54 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Oh my sincerest apologies, I only expect people to read that which others post |
| 20:55 |
TommyTreasure |
simple question -- which of the #minetest-dev channel ops gives voice to the discord users? aks: why did i have to ask one ot the chops to get my voice here? |
| 20:55 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> "It's a bridge, so all restrictions for the bridge are on the Discord side" |
| 20:55 |
sfan5 |
I believe that on the Discord (not there myself) you need to be member for some time to get access to this channel |
| 20:55 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Which is to say: -dev channel ops do not control Discord user voice |
| 20:56 |
TommyTreasure |
like i said, if that's the case, then there's no reason to not auto voice all irc guests here |
| 20:56 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Ah, indeed, that is a much more specific question |
| 20:56 |
sfan5 |
you'd have to ask one of the ops here that |
| 20:56 |
TommyTreasure |
thank you. now you see my question of logic |
| 20:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> most users are still massively intimidated by -dev anyway |
| 20:56 |
TommyTreasure |
hmmm sofar, you are one of those :) |
| 20:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> sips monster |
| 20:57 |
TommyTreasure |
actually, i'm more concerned with the multicraft servers taking over the first page of the server list in the minetest client |
| 20:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> aye lad |
| 20:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> give em the HWMNBN treatmet |
| 20:58 |
TommyTreasure |
jordach, for what its worth, i was voiced in this channel, on the first day it was created |
| 20:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> same |
| 20:58 |
sfan5 |
by multicraft you mean those running the software? or those named "MultiCraft"? |
| 20:58 |
sfan5 |
there are only four of the latter |
| 20:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> you forget i'm old as fuck in the MT community |
| 20:59 |
TommyTreasure |
sort of. i'm just confused with the listing |
| 20:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> it's also because the MT client sorts them by client count |
| 20:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> rather than say an arbitrary scoring like CDB |
| 20:59 |
TommyTreasure |
i went to the multicraft website, and it seems the page doesn't even mention minetest, yet it does mention minecraft |
| 21:00 |
TommyTreasure |
so, if i put one of those rolls royce kits on my vw beetle, does it become a real rolls royce? |
| 21:00 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, let me ask this a little differently...... |
| 21:00 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Its more like parking your rolls royce and vw beetle in the same car lot |
| 21:00 |
TommyTreasure |
multicraft is not minetest, correct? |
| 21:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> It is a fork |
| 21:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> So, technically yes |
| 21:01 |
sfan5 |
@Jordach there is an scoring, client count is just the primary influence |
| 21:01 |
TommyTreasure |
then why do i have to pay for server hosting |
| 21:01 |
TommyTreasure |
just asking |
| 21:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> You don't |
| 21:01 |
sfan5 |
you're skipping a few steps there |
| 21:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Plenty of free services |
| 21:01 |
TommyTreasure |
i probably am |
| 21:02 |
TommyTreasure |
so, if i have my own computer, port forwaded access, could i set up a multicraft server to allow 99 clients? |
| 21:02 |
sfan5 |
sure why not |
| 21:03 |
sfan5 |
or well, I'm assuming since MultiCraft is also open-source that that should be possible |
| 21:03 |
TommyTreasure |
judging by the website, i need a license code to do that |
| 21:03 |
TommyTreasure |
is there something else i'm missing? |
| 21:04 |
sfan5 |
where are you seeing that? |
| 21:04 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, let me ask this first. is multicraft.org the official site for multicraft? |
| 21:04 |
sfan5 |
no |
| 21:04 |
TommyTreasure |
ah, then could you supply me the correct link for it? |
| 21:05 |
sfan5 |
the servers on the list link http://multicraft.world/ which just redirects to a github org |
| 21:05 |
TommyTreasure |
more specifically, the link to download the multicraft server, or client/server software |
| 21:07 |
TommyTreasure |
so is it safe to assume that the multicraft.org is owned by the one that shall not be mentioned? |
| 21:07 |
sfan5 |
hah no |
| 21:07 |
sfan5 |
it's just a difference software for Minecraft with the same name |
| 21:07 |
TommyTreasure |
i was wondering, because of the hosting company for the site |
| 21:08 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> He who shall not be named uses Namecheap |
| 21:08 |
sfan5 |
different* |
| 21:08 |
TommyTreasure |
cloudfare was always one of his favorites |
| 21:10 |
TommyTreasure |
so what is the affiliation of multicraft.org, and multicraft.world? |
| 21:10 |
sfan5 |
none |
| 21:10 |
TommyTreasure |
unless i'm terribly mistaken, your name is listed on that site as a contributor |
| 21:11 |
sfan5 |
on the github repo? yes, because it's a fork of Minetest the contributions I have made to Minetest are also in there |
| 21:11 |
TommyTreasure |
ah, my bad. the github page is where i did see the contributor list. sorry |
| 21:12 |
TommyTreasure |
so, let me ask this question..... it seems the multicraft engine can allow both v4 and v5 clients. why can mt do the same? |
| 21:12 |
TommyTreasure |
or, is that in the works? |
| 21:13 |
TommyTreasure |
edit: why can't* mt do the same |
| 21:14 |
TommyTreasure |
and another question...... |
| 21:14 |
DS-minetest |
There is no minetest with major version 4. |
| 21:14 |
TommyTreasure |
does this mean that minetest will be slowly replaced with multicraft |
| 21:15 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, so be picky. every knows that v4 relates to 0.4.x |
| 21:17 |
TommyTreasure |
are those not valid questions to ask? |
| 21:18 |
sfan5 |
minetest could do the same, dropping support for 0.4.x was a deliberate decision to reduce maintenance overhead, cruft and to be able to fix some fundamental bugs |
| 21:19 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, i can accept that. but why develop multicraft to allow both? |
| 21:19 |
sfan5 |
and specifically because 0.4 allowed using client-side modding to cheat without servers having a way to prevent that, as long as you provide backwards compatibility you get that back in |
| 21:19 |
sfan5 |
not sure if I get your question correctly, the advantage of supporting 0.4 is obvious: higher player numbers due tue more compatible clients |
| 21:21 |
sfan5 |
and adding to the the previous point: generally if you keep supporting old clients indefinitely it really holds stuff back because modders cannot make use of new feature |
| 21:21 |
TommyTreasure |
my concerns are actually twofold. first, the multicraft servers in the announce list, block out the rest of the v5.x servers from the initial page, making it very hard for those servers to compete for listing |
| 21:22 |
TommyTreasure |
the second, i can only assume that multicraft is a more recent work, and yet it does support both client versions |
| 21:22 |
sfan5 |
a more recent work than ... what? |
| 21:22 |
TommyTreasure |
minetest |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> I'm not sure how "recent work" and "supports both client versions" are related at all |
| 21:23 |
TommyTreasure |
honestly, the site for the announce list is servers.minetest.net, not servers.multicraft.net |
| 21:23 |
DS-minetest |
more recent than 29 minutes? |
| 21:23 |
sfan5 |
both are developed and active today, code-wise multicraft is pretty much the state Minetest was at 0.4.17 with changes |
| 21:23 |
TommyTreasure |
come on now, let's be real please |
| 21:23 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> "Real" as in what? |
| 21:24 |
sfan5 |
I don't know what this information would get you however |
| 21:24 |
TommyTreasure |
ah, why i parted this channel last august |
| 21:24 |
DS-minetest |
very real: π |
| 21:24 |
TommyTreasure |
to be totally honest, i don't think its fair to admins to have their servers not be in the first page of the 'minetest' announce list |
| 21:26 |
sfan5 |
The server list has never had a policy saying that you couldn't use modified or forked versions of the Minetest engine on it |
| 21:26 |
TommyTreasure |
as of 30 seconds ago, almost half of the first page on the minetest client server lists, were multicraft |
| 21:26 |
sfan5 |
your correct is still warranted, since servers running the MultiCraft engine have an unfair advantage |
| 21:26 |
sfan5 |
concern* |
| 21:27 |
TommyTreasure |
what makes it really difficult, is when a guest on my server argues with me that i'm running a multicraft server, when i know its running mt 5.4.0-dev |
| 21:28 |
sfan5 |
their client supports connecting to v4 and v5 too? |
| 21:28 |
sfan5 |
that'd be news to me |
| 21:28 |
TommyTreasure |
i say, let them run what ever client connects, but maybe more thought should be given to the priority of minetest servers being at the top of the announce list |
| 21:29 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> Then it comes to how the priority is evaluated |
| 21:29 |
sfan5 |
oh you mean users might be confused into thinking all servers are multicraft |
| 21:29 |
TommyTreasure |
i don't know anything about multicraft, as i would never run it. i'm too much of an mt diehard |
| 21:29 |
sfan5 |
I don't want to discount your experience but that seems a bit far fetched |
| 21:30 |
TommyTreasure |
and i've always stressed the importance of using official minetest clients on my servers |
| 21:30 |
TommyTreasure |
at my age, i don't have much more time to get into another server software LOL |
| 21:30 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Its actually not totally far fetched. Most MultiCraft players are children, many of which (from second-hand information) apparently think everything is, in fact, MultiCraft |
| 21:31 |
sfan5 |
yeah but we're not talking about multicraft |
| 21:31 |
sfan5 |
multicraft clients cannot connect to v5 servers |
| 21:31 |
sfan5 |
...is the last information I know and if that's not correct I'd like to hear more |
| 21:32 |
TommyTreasure |
i don't know, but after upgrading a very popular 0.4 server to 5.4, our new guest joins have dropped from 50+ per day, to 1 per day |
| 21:33 |
sfan5 |
unsurprising |
| 21:33 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> I suppose your target group is stuck to 0.4 then |
| 21:33 |
sfan5 |
there are a lot of third-party 0.4-based android clients |
| 21:33 |
TommyTreasure |
i'm not referring to old users. this is just new joins |
| 21:34 |
TommyTreasure |
y5nw, sorry, but i don't know who you are |
| 21:34 |
TommyTreasure |
but lets say that the server in reference, was made public in jan 2017 |
| 21:35 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> TommyTreasure: I happen to also play MT for some time. I have not done much in particular though other than playing on a server (not advertising here) |
| 21:35 |
TommyTreasure |
it started as 0.4.14, or possibe 0.4.15, and was on 0.4.17.1 unlil last month |
| 21:36 |
TommyTreasure |
y5nw, glad to meet you. i'm only an admin, with very basic coding skills. that's why i ask so many questions here |
| 21:36 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> My suspesion is that those who mainly use the official client tend to stay on certain servers instead of wandering off all the time |
| 21:37 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> So my guess is that most of those who joined your server in the past are multicraft users |
| 21:37 |
TommyTreasure |
in answer to that, our guests had plenty of notice of our upgrade, and prior to that, were were constantly being asked when were going to upgrade. so, i have to disagree with that reason |
| 21:38 |
TommyTreasure |
that could very well be, but with 8 or more servers, showing 50+ players, and not being a real minetest server, seems to be more a reason for the other servers having such a low ranking |
| 21:38 |
sfan5 |
here's mine: guests you see joining with 0.4.x are random android users using whatever app but one that is surely not called "Minetest" |
| 21:38 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> That is weird. I wonder how many of those who join the server actually stay. |
| 21:39 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, let me put it this way. last week, this server was 2nd from the bottom on the announce list.. more |
| 21:39 |
TommyTreasure |
i joined with 3 accounts, and after 6 hours, it was still 2nd from the bottom |
| 21:39 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> From my experience it's mostly those who choose to stay on a server that care about the server (incl. upgrades) |
| 21:41 |
sfan5 |
if it's at the bottom permanently there's probably something wrong |
| 21:41 |
TommyTreasure |
good point, but it doesn't address my concerns of sharing an announce list with a non-minetest game server |
| 21:42 |
sfan5 |
it was not supposed to |
| 21:42 |
TommyTreasure |
only a guess, but right now, i just counted an assumed 12 multicraft servers out of 17 on the displayed page |
| 21:43 |
TommyTreasure |
for the record, i'm using the 5.4.0 minetest client |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Is there anything stopping someone from creating non-minetest server whos only purpose is to report an artificially high amount of users and uptime and use the name/desc for advertising/spam? |
| 21:43 |
sfan5 |
@GreenXenith yes, we'll ban them from the list |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> So, technically no, other than human intervention. |
| 21:43 |
TommyTreasure |
GreenXenith that depends on your point of view, or affiliation with multicraft |
| 21:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> do i look like i've made money with MT |
| 21:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> (there is a valid answer to this strange question) |
| 21:44 |
TommyTreasure |
does it look i accused you of that? |
| 21:44 |
sfan5 |
TommyTreasure: how large a page is depends on your GUI settings, of the 13 shown for me 10 are running the MultiCraft engine |
| 21:44 |
TommyTreasure |
i'm referring to the list in the client, not the web page |
| 21:44 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 21:44 |
sfan5 |
that depends on your GUI settings |
| 21:45 |
TommyTreasure |
so for you, only 3 of the listings are minetest servers |
| 21:46 |
TommyTreasure |
to be totally honest with my list, i need to remove 4 of my favorites from the list |
| 21:47 |
sfan5 |
ah good point |
| 21:47 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, my settings show 17, but the total isn't the issue. its the over population of multicraft servers in the minetest server list |
| 21:47 |
sfan5 |
it's 4/16 MT servers then |
| 21:47 |
TommyTreasure |
how closely related are the displayed list and the website? |
| 21:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> the exact same |
| 21:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> it's just a table displaying the contents of a json file |
| 21:48 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, so it should be very easy to see that if there are more multicraft servers in the first 20 listings, then do i have a valid concern? |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<y5nw> TommyTreasure: to me the important thing is the "quality" of the user base. Do your players choose to stay on the server, or are these different players? |
| 21:49 |
sfan5 |
I said that your concern is valid 23 minutes ago, so I guess that isn't for me to answer |
| 21:49 |
TommyTreasure |
keep in mind, that i'm basing my comments on only the first page of the client 'join game' list |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> a quick search by checking the provided lua game, 30 servers are multicraft |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163533212516474/818963805979148298/Screenshot_2021-03-09_at_21.49.20.png |
| 21:50 |
TommyTreasure |
sfan5, no offense, but the others are arguing different points of my initial question. |
| 21:50 |
TommyTreasure |
so my next question..... more |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> that said i do have a special question about minigame servers that behave "different" |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i've been building an Ace of Spades like game with completely random mapgen support |
| 21:50 |
TommyTreasure |
is the listing of multicraft servers something i just have to live with, or is this something that will taken under consideration? |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> it also means the server fully stops and restarts - wondering if that affects the server list in any way |
| 21:51 |
sfan5 |
@Jordach if your question is about ranking: yes, it'll stay at the bottom |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163533212516474/818964427364892712/Screenshot_2021-03-09_at_21.51.55.png |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> taken a snap |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> the client seems to rank them by player count anyway |
| 21:52 |
sfan5 |
TommyTreasure: this has been brought up before and we (the core team) will listen to the arguments brought forth |
| 21:52 |
TommyTreasure |
hmmm, one of my servers shuts down once a day for backup. is that a ranking issue too? |
| 21:53 |
sfan5 |
so far nothing has been done 'against' it has been done, but it's been a while since it was discussed |
| 21:53 |
TommyTreasure |
sfan5, thank you. i'll ask the question here again in the next month or so |
| 21:53 |
sfan5 |
uh |
| 21:53 |
TommyTreasure |
to see if my concerns are considered valid, or dropped |
| 21:54 |
TommyTreasure |
i'm expecting the latter will be the final answer, and so many core devs are contributors in both programs |
| 21:54 |
TommyTreasure |
and so = because so many* |
| 21:54 |
sfan5 |
for that it'd first make sense to actually bring attention to it for the rest of the team, they won't know unless they randomly stumble over the chat logs |
| 21:55 |
sfan5 |
and for contributors, hold on |
| 21:55 |
TommyTreasure |
the list is quite long |
| 21:55 |
sfan5 |
because Multicraft is forked from the same codebase and commit history as Minetest, everyone who has contributed to MT (up to a point) automatically shows in the list without having explicitly contributed anything to Multicraft |
| 21:56 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, then one last question..... |
| 21:56 |
sfan5 |
or shorter: you absolutely cannot count appearing in whatever contributor list as an endorsement |
| 21:57 |
TommyTreasure |
since the list is split for the 2 mt versions, why not another split, to keep the multicraft servers below the minetest servers? |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> multicraft servers belong, but act on their own volition |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> therefore are not really official minetest in any case |
| 21:57 |
sfan5 |
that'd be possible of course |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> other than sharing a protocol |
| 21:57 |
TommyTreasure |
my argument is based on web search engine statistics. most people won't go further than the first page of results to make their next move |
| 21:58 |
TommyTreasure |
nether of the 2 servers i run will probably rank much higher than they currently hold, but it will be a shorter trip to the bottom of the list :) |
| 21:59 |
TommyTreasure |
neither* |
| 22:21 |
|
sturm__ joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:28 |
TommyTreasure |
GreenXenith -- in reference to your Its more like parking your rolls royce and vw beetle in the same car lot comment...... so what if i tried to sell that vw as a Rolls Royce? see the difference? |
| 22:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> >and specifically because 0.4 allowed using client-side modding to cheat without servers having a way to prevent that, as long as you provide backwards compatibility you get that back in I mean just look at dragonfire, its easy to bypass the restriction and allow csms without the servers say so (granted you can look for certain behavior and ban users on that) |
| 22:33 |
TommyTreasure |
Jonathon, my whole issue had nothing to do with the 0.4 minetest releases |
| 22:33 |
TommyTreasure |
on a v5 client, the 0.4 clients were grayed out |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you mean 0.4 servers? |
| 22:34 |
sfan5 |
I know that it's easy to bypass the restrictions, but there's a major difference between just reconfiguring the official client a bit and having to know of(!) and download a third-party client |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> and thats because 5.x doesnt backwards support 0.4.x |
| 22:34 |
TommyTreasure |
so to make sure there's no mistake in my concerns, please note that it all has/had to do with multicraft servers taking over the minetest listings |
| 22:35 |
TommyTreasure |
jonathon, totally different argument though |
| 22:35 |
TommyTreasure |
sfan, while you're here. is it better to get the mt server via tag or branch name? |
| 22:36 |
TommyTreasure |
assuming 5.4.0 - stable is what i want |
| 22:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> sfan5: you are correct, unless dragonfire or anyone other client becomes popular you would be right back to square one |
| 22:37 |
sfan5 |
makes no difference |
| 22:37 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, thanks |
| 22:37 |
sfan5 |
I suggest the tag though, you'll know exactly what you get |
| 22:37 |
TommyTreasure |
that's what i just did, for both the engine and the game |
| 23:01 |
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