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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2021-03-09

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Time Nick Message
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20:45 MTDiscord <ChaosWormz> seems the voxellands website no directs to a scam site of the win an Iphone variety
20:46 MTDiscord <Flamore> Voxellands is outdated
20:46 MTDiscord <Flamore> I mean discontinued
20:46 MTDiscord <ChaosWormz> I know
20:48 MTDiscord <Jordach> does the irc bridge proper represent this 🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀
20:48 MTDiscord <Jordach> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163533212516474/818948272604971078/Screenshot_2021-03-09_at_20.47.26.png
20:49 * TommyTreasure wonders why #minetest-hub still requires irc members to be voiced, yet allows discord member with no restriction.  hmmmmm, guess logic doesn't apply here anymore
20:50 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> You assume that the Discord side has no restrictions
20:50 TommyTreasure yup, i do
20:51 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Well let it be known: Your assumption is false.
20:51 MTDiscord <Jordach> yeah nah it takes well over a month to unlock it
20:51 TommyTreasure well let it be known that i'm also against multicraft servers being in the announce list for minetest too
20:51 MTDiscord <Jordach> i just use this as a suitable bouncer replacement because i'm s/cheap/lazy/g as all hell
20:52 TommyTreasure so, which of the #minetest-hub operators release the restriction for discord members?
20:53 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It's a bridge, so all restrictions for the bridge are on the Discord side
20:53 TommyTreasure then why not voice all that join this channel?
20:53 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Maybe you didnt read
20:54 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> "It takes well over a month to unlock [this channel]"
20:54 TommyTreasure maybe you shouldn't be a bit more polite
20:54 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Oh my sincerest apologies, I only expect people to read that which others post
20:55 TommyTreasure simple question -- which of the #minetest-dev channel ops gives voice to the discord users?  aks: why did i have to ask one ot the chops to get my voice here?
20:55 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> "It's a bridge, so all restrictions for the bridge are on the Discord side"
20:55 sfan5 I believe that on the Discord (not there myself) you need to be member for some time to get access to this channel
20:55 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Which is to say: -dev channel ops do not control Discord user voice
20:56 TommyTreasure like i said, if that's the case, then there's no reason to not auto voice all irc guests here
20:56 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Ah, indeed, that is a much more specific question
20:56 sfan5 you'd have to ask one of the ops here that
20:56 TommyTreasure thank you.  now you see my question of logic
20:56 MTDiscord <Jordach> most users are still massively intimidated by -dev anyway
20:56 TommyTreasure hmmm sofar, you are one of those  :)
20:56 MTDiscord <Jordach> sips monster
20:57 TommyTreasure actually, i'm more concerned with the multicraft servers taking over the first page of the server list in the minetest client
20:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> aye lad
20:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> give em the HWMNBN treatmet
20:58 TommyTreasure jordach, for what its worth, i was voiced in this channel, on the first day it was created
20:58 MTDiscord <Jordach> same
20:58 sfan5 by multicraft you mean those running the software? or those named "MultiCraft"?
20:58 sfan5 there are only four of the latter
20:58 MTDiscord <Jordach> you forget i'm old as fuck in the MT community
20:59 TommyTreasure sort of. i'm just confused with the listing
20:59 MTDiscord <Jordach> it's also because the MT client sorts them by client count
20:59 MTDiscord <Jordach> rather than say an arbitrary scoring like CDB
20:59 TommyTreasure i went to the multicraft website, and it seems the page doesn't even mention minetest, yet it does mention minecraft
21:00 TommyTreasure so, if i put one of those rolls royce kits on my vw beetle, does it become a real rolls royce?
21:00 TommyTreasure ok, let me ask this a little differently......
21:00 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Its more like parking your rolls royce and vw beetle in the same car lot
21:00 TommyTreasure multicraft is not minetest, correct?
21:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It is a fork
21:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> So, technically yes
21:01 sfan5 @Jordach there is an scoring, client count is just the primary influence
21:01 TommyTreasure then why do i have to pay for server hosting
21:01 TommyTreasure just asking
21:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> You don't
21:01 sfan5 you're skipping a few steps there
21:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Plenty of free services
21:01 TommyTreasure i probably am
21:02 TommyTreasure so, if i have my own computer, port forwaded access, could i set up a multicraft server to allow 99 clients?
21:02 sfan5 sure why not
21:03 sfan5 or well, I'm assuming since MultiCraft is also open-source that that should be possible
21:03 TommyTreasure judging by the website, i need a license code to do that
21:03 TommyTreasure is there something else i'm missing?
21:04 sfan5 where are you seeing that?
21:04 TommyTreasure ok, let me ask this first.  is multicraft.org the official site for multicraft?
21:04 sfan5 no
21:04 TommyTreasure ah, then could you supply me the correct link for it?
21:05 sfan5 the servers on the list link http://multicraft.world/ which just redirects to a github org
21:05 TommyTreasure more specifically, the link to download the multicraft server, or client/server software
21:07 TommyTreasure so is it safe to assume that the multicraft.org is owned by the one that shall not be mentioned?
21:07 sfan5 hah no
21:07 sfan5 it's just a difference software for Minecraft with the same name
21:07 TommyTreasure i was wondering, because of the hosting company for the site
21:08 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> He who shall not be named uses Namecheap
21:08 sfan5 different*
21:08 TommyTreasure cloudfare was always one of his favorites
21:10 TommyTreasure so what is the affiliation of multicraft.org, and multicraft.world?
21:10 sfan5 none
21:10 TommyTreasure unless i'm terribly mistaken, your name is listed on that site as a contributor
21:11 sfan5 on the github repo? yes, because it's a fork of Minetest the contributions I have made to Minetest are also in there
21:11 TommyTreasure ah, my bad.  the github page is where i did see the contributor list.  sorry
21:12 TommyTreasure so, let me ask this question.....  it seems the multicraft engine can allow both v4 and v5 clients. why can mt do the same?
21:12 TommyTreasure or, is that in the works?
21:13 TommyTreasure edit:  why can't* mt do the same
21:14 TommyTreasure and another question......
21:14 DS-minetest There is no minetest with major version 4.
21:14 TommyTreasure does this mean that minetest will be slowly replaced with multicraft
21:15 TommyTreasure ok, so be picky.  every knows that v4 relates to 0.4.x
21:17 TommyTreasure are those not valid questions to ask?
21:18 sfan5 minetest could do the same, dropping support for 0.4.x was a deliberate decision to reduce maintenance overhead, cruft and to be able to fix some fundamental bugs
21:19 TommyTreasure ok, i can accept that. but why develop multicraft to allow both?
21:19 sfan5 and specifically because 0.4 allowed using client-side modding to cheat without servers having a way to prevent that, as long as you provide backwards compatibility you get that back in
21:19 sfan5 not sure if I get your question correctly, the advantage of supporting 0.4 is obvious: higher player numbers due tue more compatible clients
21:21 sfan5 and adding to the the previous point: generally if you keep supporting old clients indefinitely it really holds stuff back because modders cannot make use of new feature
21:21 TommyTreasure my concerns are actually twofold.  first, the multicraft servers in the announce list, block out the rest of the v5.x servers from the initial page, making it very hard for those servers to compete for listing
21:22 TommyTreasure the second, i can only assume that multicraft is a more recent work, and yet it does support both client versions
21:22 sfan5 a more recent work than ... what?
21:22 TommyTreasure minetest
21:22 MTDiscord <y5nw> I'm not sure how "recent work" and "supports both client versions" are related at all
21:23 TommyTreasure honestly, the site for the announce list is servers.minetest.net, not servers.multicraft.net
21:23 DS-minetest more recent than 29 minutes?
21:23 sfan5 both are developed and active today, code-wise multicraft is pretty much the state Minetest was at 0.4.17 with changes
21:23 TommyTreasure come on now, let's be real please
21:23 MTDiscord <y5nw> "Real" as in what?
21:24 sfan5 I don't know what this information would get you however
21:24 TommyTreasure ah, why i parted this channel last august
21:24 DS-minetest very real: π
21:24 TommyTreasure to be totally honest, i don't think its fair to admins to have their servers not be in the first page of the 'minetest' announce list
21:26 sfan5 The server list has never had a policy saying that you couldn't use modified or forked versions of the Minetest engine on it
21:26 TommyTreasure as of 30 seconds ago, almost half of the first page on the minetest client server lists, were multicraft
21:26 sfan5 your correct is still warranted, since servers running the MultiCraft engine have an unfair advantage
21:26 sfan5 concern*
21:27 TommyTreasure what makes it really difficult, is when a guest on my server argues with me that i'm running a multicraft server, when i know its running mt 5.4.0-dev
21:28 sfan5 their client supports connecting to v4 and v5 too?
21:28 sfan5 that'd be news to me
21:28 TommyTreasure i say, let them run what ever client connects, but maybe more thought should be given to the priority of minetest servers being at the top of the announce list
21:29 MTDiscord <y5nw> Then it comes to how the priority is evaluated
21:29 sfan5 oh you mean users might be confused into thinking all servers are multicraft
21:29 TommyTreasure i don't know anything about multicraft, as i would never run it.  i'm too much of an mt diehard
21:29 sfan5 I don't want to discount your experience but that seems a bit far fetched
21:30 TommyTreasure and i've always stressed the importance of using official minetest clients on my servers
21:30 TommyTreasure at my age, i don't have much more time to get into another server software  LOL
21:30 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Its actually not totally far fetched. Most MultiCraft players are children, many of which (from second-hand information) apparently think everything is, in fact, MultiCraft
21:31 sfan5 yeah but we're not talking about multicraft
21:31 sfan5 multicraft clients cannot connect to v5 servers
21:31 sfan5 ...is the last information I know and if that's not correct I'd like to hear more
21:32 TommyTreasure i don't know, but after upgrading a very popular 0.4 server to 5.4, our new guest joins have dropped from 50+ per day, to 1 per day
21:33 sfan5 unsurprising
21:33 MTDiscord <y5nw> I suppose your target group is stuck to 0.4 then
21:33 sfan5 there are a lot of third-party 0.4-based android clients
21:33 TommyTreasure i'm not referring to old users. this is just new joins
21:34 TommyTreasure y5nw, sorry, but i don't know who you are
21:34 TommyTreasure but lets say that the server in reference, was made public in jan 2017
21:35 MTDiscord <y5nw> TommyTreasure: I happen to also play MT for some time. I have not done much in particular though other than playing on a server (not advertising here)
21:35 TommyTreasure it started as 0.4.14, or possibe 0.4.15, and was on 0.4.17.1 unlil last month
21:36 TommyTreasure y5nw, glad to meet you.  i'm only an admin, with very basic coding skills.  that's why i ask so many questions here
21:36 MTDiscord <y5nw> My suspesion is that those who mainly use the official client tend to stay on certain servers instead of wandering off all the time
21:37 MTDiscord <y5nw> So my guess is that most of those who joined your server in the past are multicraft users
21:37 TommyTreasure in answer to that, our guests had plenty of notice of our upgrade, and prior to that, were were constantly being asked when were going to upgrade.  so, i have to disagree with that reason
21:38 TommyTreasure that could very well be, but with 8 or more servers, showing 50+ players, and not being a real minetest server, seems to be more a reason for the other servers having such a low ranking
21:38 sfan5 here's mine: guests you see joining with 0.4.x are random android users using whatever app but one that is surely not called "Minetest"
21:38 MTDiscord <y5nw> That is weird. I wonder how many of those who join the server actually stay.
21:39 TommyTreasure ok, let me put it this way.  last week, this server was 2nd from the bottom on the announce list..  more
21:39 TommyTreasure i joined with 3 accounts, and after 6 hours, it was still 2nd from the bottom
21:39 MTDiscord <y5nw> From my experience it's mostly those who choose to stay on a server that care about the server (incl. upgrades)
21:41 sfan5 if it's at the bottom permanently there's probably something wrong
21:41 TommyTreasure good point, but it doesn't address my concerns of sharing an announce list with a non-minetest game server
21:42 sfan5 it was not supposed to
21:42 TommyTreasure only a guess, but right now, i just counted an assumed 12 multicraft servers out of 17 on the displayed page
21:43 TommyTreasure for the record, i'm using the 5.4.0 minetest client
21:43 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Is there anything stopping someone from creating non-minetest server whos only purpose is to report an artificially high amount of users and uptime and use the name/desc for advertising/spam?
21:43 sfan5 @GreenXenith yes, we'll ban them from the list
21:43 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> So, technically no, other than human intervention.
21:43 TommyTreasure GreenXenith that depends on your point of view, or affiliation with multicraft
21:44 MTDiscord <Jordach> do i look like i've made money with MT
21:44 MTDiscord <Jordach> (there is a valid answer to this strange question)
21:44 TommyTreasure does it look i accused you of that?
21:44 sfan5 TommyTreasure: how large a page is depends on your GUI settings, of the 13 shown for me 10 are running the MultiCraft engine
21:44 TommyTreasure i'm referring to the list in the client, not the web page
21:44 sfan5 yes
21:44 sfan5 that depends on your GUI settings
21:45 TommyTreasure so for you, only 3 of the listings are minetest servers
21:46 TommyTreasure to be totally honest with my list, i need to remove 4 of my favorites from the list
21:47 sfan5 ah good point
21:47 TommyTreasure ok, my settings show 17, but the total isn't the issue. its the over population of multicraft servers in the minetest server list
21:47 sfan5 it's 4/16 MT servers then
21:47 TommyTreasure how closely related are the displayed list and the website?
21:48 MTDiscord <Jordach> the exact same
21:48 MTDiscord <Jordach> it's just a table displaying the contents of a json file
21:48 TommyTreasure ok, so it should be very easy to see that if there are more multicraft servers in the first 20 listings, then do i have a valid concern?
21:49 MTDiscord <y5nw> TommyTreasure: to me the important thing is the "quality" of the user base. Do your players choose to stay on the server, or are these different players?
21:49 sfan5 I said that your concern is valid 23 minutes ago, so I guess that isn't for me to answer
21:49 TommyTreasure keep in mind, that i'm basing my comments on only the first page of the client 'join game' list
21:49 MTDiscord <Jordach> a quick search by checking the provided lua game, 30 servers are multicraft
21:49 MTDiscord <Jordach> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163533212516474/818963805979148298/Screenshot_2021-03-09_at_21.49.20.png
21:50 TommyTreasure sfan5, no offense, but the others are arguing different points of my initial question.
21:50 TommyTreasure so my next question..... more
21:50 MTDiscord <Jordach> that said i do have a special question about minigame servers that behave "different"
21:50 MTDiscord <Jordach> i've been building an Ace of Spades like game with completely random mapgen support
21:50 TommyTreasure is the listing of multicraft servers something i just have to live with, or is this something that will taken under consideration?
21:50 MTDiscord <Jordach> it also means the server fully stops and restarts - wondering if that affects the server list in any way
21:51 sfan5 @Jordach if your question is about ranking: yes, it'll stay at the bottom
21:52 MTDiscord <Jordach> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163533212516474/818964427364892712/Screenshot_2021-03-09_at_21.51.55.png
21:52 MTDiscord <Jordach> taken a snap
21:52 MTDiscord <Jordach> the client seems to rank them by player count anyway
21:52 sfan5 TommyTreasure: this has been brought up before and we (the core team) will listen to the arguments brought forth
21:52 TommyTreasure hmmm, one of my servers shuts down once a day for backup.  is that a ranking issue too?
21:53 sfan5 so far nothing has been done 'against' it has been done, but it's been a while since it was discussed
21:53 TommyTreasure sfan5,  thank you.  i'll ask the question here again in the next month or so
21:53 sfan5 uh
21:53 TommyTreasure to see if my concerns are considered valid, or dropped
21:54 TommyTreasure i'm expecting the latter will be the final answer, and so many core devs are contributors in both programs
21:54 TommyTreasure and so = because so many*
21:54 sfan5 for that it'd first make sense to actually bring attention to it for the rest of the team, they won't know unless they randomly stumble over the chat logs
21:55 sfan5 and for contributors, hold on
21:55 TommyTreasure the list is quite long
21:55 sfan5 because Multicraft is forked from the same codebase and commit history as Minetest, everyone who has contributed to MT (up to a point) automatically shows in the list without having explicitly contributed anything to Multicraft
21:56 TommyTreasure ok, then one last question.....
21:56 sfan5 or shorter: you absolutely cannot count appearing in whatever contributor list as an endorsement
21:57 TommyTreasure since the list is split for the 2 mt versions, why not another split, to keep the multicraft servers below the minetest servers?
21:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> multicraft servers belong, but act on their own volition
21:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> therefore are not really official minetest in any case
21:57 sfan5 that'd be possible of course
21:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> other than sharing a protocol
21:57 TommyTreasure my argument is based on web search engine statistics.  most people won't go further than the first page of results to make their next move
21:58 TommyTreasure nether of the 2 servers i run will probably rank much higher than they currently hold, but it will be a shorter trip to the bottom of the list  :)
21:59 TommyTreasure neither*
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22:28 TommyTreasure GreenXenith  -- in reference to your Its more like parking your rolls royce and vw beetle in the same car lot comment......  so what if i tried to sell that vw as a Rolls Royce?  see the difference?
22:32 MTDiscord <Jonathon> >and specifically because 0.4 allowed using client-side modding to cheat without servers having a way to prevent that, as long as you provide backwards compatibility you get that back in I mean just look at dragonfire, its easy to bypass the restriction and allow csms without the servers say so (granted you can look for certain behavior and ban users on that)
22:33 TommyTreasure Jonathon, my whole issue had nothing to do with the 0.4 minetest releases
22:33 TommyTreasure on a v5 client, the 0.4 clients were grayed out
22:34 MTDiscord <Jonathon> you mean 0.4 servers?
22:34 sfan5 I know that it's easy to bypass the restrictions, but there's a major difference between just reconfiguring the official client a bit and having to know of(!) and download a third-party client
22:34 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and thats because 5.x doesnt backwards support 0.4.x
22:34 TommyTreasure so to make sure there's no mistake in my concerns, please note that it all has/had to do with multicraft servers taking over the minetest listings
22:35 TommyTreasure jonathon, totally different argument though
22:35 TommyTreasure sfan, while you're here.  is it better to get the mt server via tag or branch name?
22:36 TommyTreasure assuming 5.4.0 - stable is what i want
22:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> sfan5: you are correct, unless dragonfire or anyone other client becomes popular you would be right back to square one
22:37 sfan5 makes no difference
22:37 TommyTreasure ok, thanks
22:37 sfan5 I suggest the tag though, you'll know exactly what you get
22:37 TommyTreasure that's what i just did, for both the engine and the game
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