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| 12:13 |
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| 12:15 |
IhrFussel |
Hello guys...so I'm not really against local map saving but did you ever think about the fact that it makes copying "foreign personal property" possible? I mean we could argue if MT buildings/projects have a "copyright" but what if I want to promise my users that their work is THEIR work and nobody has the right to copy/steal it without permission? |
| 12:15 |
IhrFussel |
I think you ignored that side of things |
| 12:15 |
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| 12:15 |
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| 12:15 |
VanessaE |
copyright only applies to distributing copies. |
| 12:16 |
VanessaE |
not to making a copy. |
| 12:16 |
Shara |
I've known some players, and some server owners, who get extremely unhappy if anyone copies their buildings. |
| 12:16 |
VanessaE |
and DO NOT USE the word "steal" |
| 12:16 |
VanessaE |
there's no theft involved - no one is deprived of anything tangible (as if a map file is, to begin with) |
| 12:17 |
IhrFussel |
It is stealing if I work on something on a server for a few weeks or even MONTHS...just for someone to come and enable local map saving and taking it... I have no clue what the person will use it for... maybe just personal use on their PC...but it's also possible to upload it to their own server/another server |
| 12:18 |
VanessaE |
Shara: can't really be stopped, and if someone wants to sue a player for it, good luck proving damages :P |
| 12:18 |
|
IhrFussel was kicked by VanessaE: IhrFussel |
| 12:18 |
VanessaE |
yeah, "steal" in reference to copyright infringement crosses the line with me. |
| 12:18 |
Shara |
Sure, let's lose a real issue that actually has caused players to leave MT, under a debate about whether the wording "steal" is appropriate. |
| 12:19 |
VanessaE |
well you can of course yell at the devs to hide that feature behind some server-dictated limiter. that would be reasonable, but you know the rule: |
| 12:19 |
VanessaE |
"If I can see it, I can copy it." |
| 12:19 |
Shara |
I couldn't less about the definition attached to the action, but I'm noting players do get upset if a building they invested huge amounts of time in gets casually copied onto another server. I've had players build on my server then find their buildings were copied. I've seen what it can do. That part is real. |
| 12:20 |
Shara |
care less* |
| 12:20 |
Shara |
I don't have any issues with local map saving though, since on the other side of things it can also allow a player to save their own work if a server is shutting down |
| 12:21 |
VanessaE |
the definition matters because it has legal consequences. whatever the devs do to regulate the saving feature, it's still a matter of copyright law if the player whose work was copied has a problem wiht it. |
| 12:21 |
VanessaE |
with* |
| 12:22 |
Shara |
Yes, but that would then be for the owner of copyright to enforce or not |
| 12:22 |
VanessaE |
yeah |
| 12:22 |
Shara |
Same way someone could redistribute one of my or your mods in a way that breaks the license |
| 12:22 |
Shara |
We are not going to go yell at the devs over it. (We might yell at the forum mods to please remove a thread distributing it, but that's about it) |
| 12:22 |
VanessaE |
yes, but then you or I would have legal remedies if we wanted to pursue that. |
| 12:23 |
VanessaE |
of course, you and I have good reputations in the Minetest community, so such force wouldn't be necessar |
| 12:23 |
VanessaE |
y |
| 12:24 |
VanessaE |
yeah, poking at forum moderators to remove infringing threads and/or ban users can help. |
| 12:24 |
Shara |
Well, this should generally not come down to reputation. At least where mods are concerned since there should be something that easily proves who made a thing available first. It would get harder if it was a dispute between players for who built someting. |
| 12:25 |
Shara |
If someone copies your work to another server, idealy you should be able to talk to the other server owner, but in practice they often don't care, or would have been involved in helping. |
| 12:25 |
VanessaE |
my point is that there's no point in complaining about the feature existing, because it already existed in a "hacked" client before it became standard. |
| 12:25 |
VanessaE |
there's a reason come people call IP "Imaginary Property" instead of "Intellectual Property", after all. |
| 12:26 |
VanessaE |
some* |
| 12:26 |
Shara |
Also why the hell did you kick Fussel? That was uncalled for. |
| 12:26 |
VanessaE |
I mean, the recording industry has been bitching about this exact same issue since the first home recording devices hit the market. |
| 12:27 |
VanessaE |
I kicked him because he was trolling. |
| 12:27 |
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| 12:27 |
Shara |
He believes in this stuff, and is entitled to his belief on the topic even if you don't agree with him. |
| 12:28 |
VanessaE |
"steal" or "infringe" is not a belief. it's a term codified in federal law. |
| 12:28 |
IhrFussel |
You seem to have a completely different definition of "stealing" in your mind... if a player takes an owned item by another player is is 100% stealing, because it belonged to that other player |
| 12:28 |
VanessaE |
IhrFussel: if player A takes something from player B, leaving player B with nothing, that is stealing. |
| 12:28 |
IhrFussel |
As soon as a player creates/obtains something it is THEIRS... that is how I see it |
| 12:29 |
VanessaE |
if player A copies something from B, no theft took place. B still has his something. |
| 12:30 |
IhrFussel |
But player A now has copied player B's work and can do whatever they like with it...even though player A never gave permission or a license to do that...that is like taking code from github with no license..it's rude |
| 12:30 |
Shara |
Loss of exclusivity can be argued. |
| 12:30 |
VanessaE |
"steal"/"theft" requires, by definition, that the owner of that thing be deprived of it or of their rightful use of it. copying does not do that. THAT is why there is a legal distinction. |
| 12:30 |
Shara |
So can abuse of a license (just because I don't literally post a license on something I made, doesn't mean you can assume one) |
| 12:31 |
Shara |
Lack of license should generally be taken to mean you don't know the rights of use, therefore should ask before using. |
| 12:31 |
Shara |
Of course by makign a thing public, it can be assumed private use won't be any issue. But adding something onto another server isn't private use. |
| 12:31 |
IhrFussel |
What? Piracy is exactly that: A COPY of something someone else owns AFAIK |
| 12:31 |
VanessaE |
IhrFussel: your kind of thinking is why some works made in the 1920's are STILL under legal copyright, despite having long since passed any reasonable limit for entering the Public Domain. |
| 12:33 |
VanessaE |
IhrFussel: your kind of thinking is why a work released today won't enter public domain until some decades after the author's death, instead of say 20 or 30 years after release. |
| 12:33 |
IhrFussel |
Even though there i no money/profit involved on my server I still think it counts as theft ... I would welcome a feature that lets server owners toggle local map saving per player...that way server owners can control who exactly copies stuff from the map |
| 12:33 |
VanessaE |
it ain't theft, and it never will be. |
| 12:34 |
IhrFussel |
It is theft on my server and will be punished...as far as items are concerned |
| 12:34 |
VanessaE |
Shara: I believe loss of exclusivity has been argued in court before, but I couldn't tell you for sure how it panned-out. |
| 12:34 |
IhrFussel |
Copying buildings may not be exactly "theft" but unauthorized usage of a work |
| 12:34 |
VanessaE |
IhrFussel: I repeat, for the third or fourth time: it is only theft if the owner is deprived of their item or their rightful use of it. period. |
| 12:35 |
Shara |
Well I'd certainly call license issues with anyone including any of my buildings in mods without checking the actual license with me first. I thinkt he issue of not knowing the license is actually the main one. |
| 12:35 |
ChimneySwift |
woah. Map saving has many unarguable benifits. being able to save my own work to a machine I control is nothing but great, it sucks when stuff gets lost. removing the feature because some players used it to copy builds of other players would be a huge shame, regardless of whether or not being able to do so should be allowed |
| 12:35 |
Shara |
ChimneySwift: no worries, I agree with you completely. I wouldn;'t build on any server tha disallowed me that |
| 12:35 |
VanessaE |
Shara: and you'd be well within your rights to do so. |
| 12:36 |
VanessaE |
(re: license) |
| 12:36 |
IhrFussel |
Nobody is talking about removing it...I request an optional control server-side... players who are trusted can then get granted the permission to copy the map |
| 12:36 |
VanessaE |
this world needs to move beyond all this MINE MINE MINE!!!!! bullshit. :_/ |
| 12:36 |
VanessaE |
:-/ |
| 12:36 |
Shara |
Fussel, that is still an issue. Plus players can simply copy by building things block by block elsewhere (I have seen this done) |
| 12:37 |
VanessaE |
Shara: that's actually the norm in minecraft. |
| 12:37 |
VanessaE |
plan out large structures on many sheets of graph paper |
| 12:37 |
Shara |
I don't much care about MC either way, but it does mean it's pointless to remove local map saving or make it optional |
| 12:37 |
ChimneySwift |
though I would argue that's much less of an issue |
| 12:38 |
ChimneySwift |
because by copying block for block, you're still spending a lot of effort |
| 12:38 |
ChimneySwift |
I could copy a massive build with mapsave in a few minutes |
| 12:38 |
VanessaE |
as far as I'm concerned, if you build on a public server, you're opening your building up to be copied by someone else. Deal with it. |
| 12:38 |
Shara |
VanessaE: I've previously had people join both my server and another server, and copy a building on my server, block by block, using the original as a reference... then the original builder got massively upset when they went around telling people it was their design |
| 12:38 |
ChimneySwift |
^^ |
| 12:39 |
Shara |
VanessaE: same could be argued with any other content, and we don't say license violations are fine there |
| 12:39 |
VanessaE |
Shara: yeah, but the problem there is not the act of copying the building -- it's the claims later made by the copying user. |
| 12:39 |
Shara |
If someone makes a mod and does not state the license, you don't then decide you get to pick whatever license you want for it. |
| 12:39 |
ChimneySwift |
true |
| 12:40 |
Shara |
But people seem to assume different rules apply to schematics |
| 12:40 |
IhrFussel |
Just because something is public doesn't mean you can use it for whatever you like...German law for example forbids the RECORDING of the public chat because not everyone talking there agreed to it (and couldn't possibly agree to it as they newly join and start chatting) |
| 12:40 |
Shara |
This was why MTG recently started to include license info for schematics as well |
| 12:40 |
VanessaE |
Shara: I don't think so. Attack the invalid claims, not the act that facilitated them. |
| 12:40 |
Shara |
VanessaE: Which part don't you agree with?> |
| 12:41 |
Shara |
Fussel, pop-up at start on first join... by clicking AGREE you agree to recording of chat. Solved. |
| 12:41 |
VanessaE |
IhrFussel: not even the same thing. recording a public chat is generally governed under wiretapping laws. |
| 12:41 |
ChimneySwift |
it's quite likely that copying a build would fall under fair use in the majority of cases as well. |
| 12:42 |
IhrFussel |
Nope not that easy...in German law you cannot give away your copyright...I think that even applies to the entire EU...either you allow someone to use your work or it's illegal by definition |
| 12:42 |
VanessaE |
Shara: if someone copies a building to another server? oh well, sucks to be you (that is, the original builder). The guy who copied it then goes around claiming HE is the original? THAT crosses the line. |
| 12:43 |
Shara |
I very much doubt any MT player would attempt to take legal action over a copied building anyway, but that doesn't really mean everything is fine. I'm personally not hugely bothered by it, but I do understand why some people would be. |
| 12:43 |
ChimneySwift |
it's be like people getting mad for you copying an image off Google instead of maticulously copying the image pixel by pixel and uploading that copy (severe over exaggeration in hindsight XDD) |
| 12:43 |
VanessaE |
in the US, copying the design of a real building is legal infringement -- but under trademark law, not copyright, iirc. |
| 12:43 |
Shara |
ChimneySwift: that's the point - the player doesn't care about the method of copying. And methods of copying still exist even if you could disable local map saving |
| 12:44 |
Shara |
I've seen more players get upset as a result of block by block copying than I have seen abuse of local map saving to move a building to a server (because that would require admin involvement) |
| 12:44 |
IhrFussel |
In German law even the duplicate from scratch is forbidden I think...your work must not look the exact same as the original...but not sure on that |
| 12:45 |
Shara |
German law is unbelievably excessive in a lot of areas (I sadly know this from experience) |
| 12:45 |
VanessaE |
ChimneySwift: you know the nyan cat in Minetest? the original author got upset over it, despite it clearly being fair use. Nevertheless, I created the one that was there for the past couple years, until its complete removal. I use the original as a general guide, but I didn't copy the look. Hell, what I made looked way better imho :) |
| 12:46 |
VanessaE |
(I created it in response to that upset) |
| 12:46 |
ChimneySwift |
well then my argument does work, you don't get in trouble for shifting a piece of music from one device to another, so why should you get in trouble for shifting a build from one server to another? |
| 12:46 |
Shara |
public vs private |
| 12:47 |
VanessaE |
ChimneySwift: I don't see a reason for it, when it's far easier to deal with the ongoing authorship claims than the already-commit act of copying |
| 12:48 |
IhrFussel |
"In order to prevent an impairment of the creation, an author can take measures against the disfigurement of the work. It is irrelevant whether the change objectively represents an improvement, because the respective original is considered the best possible result." |
| 12:49 |
VanessaE |
bottom line, you simply cannot stop the copying from happening, so you have to plan for it to happen, and deal with the results rather than the act. |
| 12:49 |
IhrFussel |
Not sure if an exact copy also falls under that...sounds more like a copy with some changes here and there |
| 12:50 |
Shara |
Anyway, I get to debate legal idiocies way too often for work, and don't want too much of my spare time taken up by such things, so back to mod testing :P |
| 12:50 |
ChimneySwift |
lol |
| 12:51 |
VanessaE |
IhrFussel: in US copyright law, there is verbiage in there about transformative works still belonging to the original author - if the transform was automated/formulaic, like copying a file and doing brightness/contrast, auto-white-balance, or even filtering it to make it look like it was painted onto some other material. |
| 12:53 |
ChimneySwift |
I think we all understand why some people wouldn't want their builds copied, but I have to agree with Vanessa here, we can't stop the copying and any attempt to stop it might make it worse, so it's best to work around it, by not caring, or asking permission, or providing attribution at least |
| 12:54 |
VanessaE |
IhrFussel: but on the other hand, if I were to, let's say look up Persistance of Memory (that melting-clocks painting), and then build a LEGO representation of it in three dimensions, *I* would legally hold the copyright on my representation of it, because no copying took place. |
| 12:54 |
Shara |
Hmm.. standing at the top of a carpathian mapgen mountain at night, waiting for a thunderstorm to start. This is more what MT should be about :P |
| 12:54 |
VanessaE |
Shara: that'll only happen if Vigo is around ;) |
| 12:54 |
ChimneySwift |
if anyone here wants to copy builds you can feel free to go and copy all my builds off hometown without permission XDDD |
| 12:54 |
Shara |
Huh? |
| 12:55 |
Shara |
It has happened. It is happening now. But I don't know who Vigo is. |
| 12:55 |
VanessaE |
Shara: Ghostbusters II, Vigo the Carpathian was the big bad in that one. |
| 12:55 |
VanessaE |
also, what thunderstorm? some mod? |
| 12:55 |
Shara |
Ahh |
| 12:55 |
Shara |
Th egame I'm working on. |
| 12:55 |
VanessaE |
ah |
| 12:55 |
Shara |
Doing weather system tests. |
| 12:56 |
VanessaE |
I don't suppose it's something that can be separated-out ...ahem... and copied? ;) |
| 12:56 |
Shara |
And I use the carpathian mapgen for all my testing of the game because... it just kind of looks awesome |
| 12:56 |
Shara |
Probably. |
| 12:56 |
Shara |
But all the biome related parts would need to be adjusted |
| 12:57 |
Shara |
Most of the things for this game are being created specifically for it. |
| 12:57 |
ChimneySwift |
have you come up with anything for that loot mod for it yet? |
| 12:58 |
Shara |
ChimneySwift: not yet. If you want to work on one please let me know :D |
| 12:59 |
ChimneySwift |
well, it's likely I will be making a fairly extensive one based around an API, I'm brainstorming with my friend who is about a million times better at textures than me. idk when though :/ one of us could get busy |
| 13:00 |
Shara |
If it's done well enough I'd be interested in including it in this |
| 13:00 |
Shara |
Or at l;east a modified version of it that removes any MTG related bits. |
| 13:02 |
ChimneySwift |
well, the idea is to do it well, and completely overridable, I guess I'll know if it's any good XD |
| 13:02 |
Shara |
Feel free to PM me if you want to chat about ideas any time. |
| 13:02 |
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| 13:03 |
ChimneySwift |
sure! right now though my bed is calling me.... oh wait I'm already in bed |
| 13:03 |
Shara |
Hehe :D |
| 13:13 |
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| 13:42 |
rdococ |
hehe |
| 14:38 |
rdococ |
IIRC stands for "if internet relay chat" |
| 14:51 |
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| 15:00 |
longerstaff13-m |
hi |
| 15:07 |
benrob0329 |
I may or may not have moved all my projects from BSD to Apache 2.0 |
| 15:08 |
rubenwardy |
why not MIT |
| 15:08 |
rubenwardy |
jokes |
| 15:09 |
benrob0329 |
One thing is MIT, because its not something substantial enough to feel the need to take credit for it. |
| 15:38 |
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| 15:53 |
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| 15:59 |
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| 16:04 |
Fixer |
did not read all the above, but some server owners dislike map capturing... |
| 16:07 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: can you get rid off that scrollbar? https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/35757396/47261957-5b2eb680-d48f-11e8-8dc1-abc933fdddf0.png |
| 16:10 |
rubenwardy |
Minetest sucks |
| 16:10 |
rubenwardy |
:D |
| 16:42 |
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| 16:50 |
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| 17:09 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: yes |
| 17:09 |
Fixer |
sadly |
| 17:09 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: also, notice no pics in that screenshot |
| 18:06 |
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| 18:30 |
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| 18:33 |
Andrey01 |
hi, why does this method not set animation of player default.player_set_animation(clicker, "sit", 30) ? '30' is a frame of sitting start of player (5.0.0 version i use). |
| 18:35 |
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| 18:35 |
Andrey01 |
ah, no, '30' is speed of animation, i seem to mix up it |
| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
use player_api |
| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
not default |
| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
player_api.set_animation iirc |
| 18:38 |
Andrey01 |
ok |
| 18:38 |
Andrey01 |
is that function deleted? |
| 18:38 |
rubenwardy |
it's aliased |
| 18:50 |
nerzhul |
hi |
| 18:51 |
rubenwardy |
oh ahi |
| 19:05 |
Andrey01 |
here`s a question: you added stratum ore for 5.0.0, when i was testing this dev version i did not find this ore and also nothing mentioned about it in minetest_game folder |
| 19:06 |
rubenwardy |
it's a type of ore placement |
| 19:06 |
rubenwardy |
apparently not used in MTG |
| 19:14 |
IhrFussel |
It slows down ore generation by a lot AFAIK |
| 19:16 |
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| 19:17 |
IhrFussel |
Or I'm confusing it with another ore type |
| 19:17 |
paramat |
you are |
| 19:17 |
paramat |
vein ore is intensive due to 3D noise |
| 19:18 |
paramat |
stratum is moderate, depending on whether it uses 0, 1 or 2 2D noises |
| 19:20 |
Andrey01 |
it doesn`t work all the same, i wrote: clicker:set_animation({x=81, y=81}), remaining params are optinal, 81th frame is frame of player sitting, but it nothing changes, why? |
| 19:22 |
Andrey01 |
and why are params of the table named 'x' and'y'? |
| 19:22 |
Andrey01 |
should be named |
| 19:27 |
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| 22:21 |
ChimneySwift |
default is likely overriding the animation, there's a function to stop default from changing player animations iirc |
| 22:53 |
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