| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 03:40 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/65 sigh |
| 03:50 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> That is quite a downgrade. |
| 03:50 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> It's going to make it harder for people to contribute to the wiki. |
| 03:50 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> now that is funny |
| 03:51 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> >harder have to annoy people to get access, which can take years. then wait forever for each page to load, etc |
| 03:52 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Access is a big problem. But I have worked with a wiki that had a built-in edit feature before, and that one was neither slow nor hard to get access on. |
| 03:52 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> So I think the access and the performance is an independent issue from the built-in edit feature. |
| 03:53 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> this(your wiki experience) is irrelevant, im literally talking about the previous wiki |
| 03:53 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I'm not complaining - a working wiki with actual content is an upgrade overall. |
| 03:54 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> comparing to what was there before to what is there now is an upgrade |
| 03:54 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> It's not irrelevant, because one example is enough to prove that a fast solution with built-in edit exists. So I do question why we require editing on GitHub. There are superior wikis. |
| 03:54 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> But yes, comparing to what there was before we definitely have an upgrade all things considered. |
| 03:55 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I don't think Wuzzy necessarily disagreed with that, either. He was concerned only with the method of editing the wiki - he didn't say that the project as a whole was a downgrade. |
| 03:55 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> And I agree with him that making a PR to make a wiki change seems strange. |
| 03:56 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Conjecture: It isnt a wiki. |
| 03:59 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> The data provided by the original wiki frankly didn't belong on a wiki. |
| 03:59 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> This is moving towards being documentation rather than a random compilation of notes |
| 04:00 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> just going to drop the only cms like thing ive seen for github pages https://github.com/pages-cms/pages-cms |
| 04:01 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> We could set up the pages-cms thing at any time then, probably. |
| 04:01 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Getting the actual documentation written is first priority. |
| 04:02 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> (If we determine its worth it) |
| 04:02 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> this, massively |
| 04:03 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> And it's still GitHub, so we probably wouldn't retain Wuzzy as a contributor anyway. |
| 04:03 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> wuzzy isnt that much of a zealot. they still make issues and occasional pr |
| 04:03 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Phew. |
| 04:04 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> not to mention its git backed, so they could send patches 🤷 |
| 04:08 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> on an unrelated note, im suprised there isnt a ci action for https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/40 or something |
| 04:08 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> given how popular hugo is |
| 04:13 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> might be able to use hugo in a go project and call https://github.com/gohugoio/hugo/blob/master/parser/frontmatter.go to check |
| 04:14 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Does GitHub MD fall under the XML format? 🤔 |
| 04:15 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> .....what? |
| 04:15 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> No, that makes no sense. Markdown doesn't have XMl tags. |
| 04:16 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> It looks like frontmatter.go only supports YAML, TOML, JSON, and XML. |
| 04:16 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> yes, and? |
| 04:17 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> So maybe I'm confused about how the content is generated, because we write it in Markdown. So it's unclear to me how we can check the frontmatter if the pages are written in Markdown, and the parser doesn't support it. |
| 04:17 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> > Provide front matter using a serialization format, one of JSON, TOML, or YAML. https://gohugo.io/content-management/front-matter/ |
| 04:18 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Ah, so we will specify the front matter in another format, very good. |
| 04:19 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I see. You just put the JSON/TOML/YAML right in the Markdown document. |
| 04:20 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> yeah, markdown doesnt have data structures, variables, etc |
| 04:21 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> most tooling does "front matter" as a header section |
| 04:21 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> see astro for example: https://docs.astro.build/en/guides/markdown-content/#dynamic-jsx-like-expressions |
| 05:00 |
|
MTDiscord joined #minetest-docs |
| 09:36 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> lol |
| 09:37 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> well to be fair if you're a moderator on a wiki and it just disappears one day and is replaced by something else without you knowing it may cause tensions |
| 09:38 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> (I still have little patience for wuzzy's concern trolling though) |
| 09:47 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> wait he made a forum thread too: https://forum.luanti.org/viewtopic.php?p=441212#p441212 |
| 10:49 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> We cant catch a break https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/19#issuecomment-2550963873 |
| 10:51 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> "Wow, this project that started mere days ago looks terrible!" |
| 10:53 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> We should also figure out terminology and purpose quickly ... it really isnt a wiki |
| 10:55 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> That thread being (until ROller replied) exclusively Wuzzy, Blockhead, Linuxdirk, and Desour makes the most amount of sense it could ever make. |
| 10:56 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I should probably ignore it like every other forum thread for my own sanity |
| 11:00 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> (Clarification: Nothing against those 4 people being in the thread; they simply share the same passions for certain aspects of software) |
| 11:29 |
|
Blockhead256 joined #minetest-docs |
| 12:06 |
|
Desour joined #minetest-docs |
| 12:23 |
Desour |
I take that as a compliment I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 12:27 |
Desour |
I really hope this movement leads to better doc, and not just a new unfinished, not used project, and wasted work. but we'll see in a few months, I guess :) |
| 12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> FWIW, I appreciate your ability to see value in things and focus on important aspects when others are focusing on esoteric negatives |
| 12:29 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Also, second important clarification: My "Wow, this project [...]" was in reply to ROller linking the forum thread, not Desour's GitHub reply ... I temporarily forgot Discord replies dont show up on IRC |
| 12:30 |
Desour |
I was part of the forum thread though |
| 12:31 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> You weren't the one complaining about flaws in a 3-day-old project :^) |
| 12:36 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I apologize if it sounded like I meant any ill towards you, Desour ... I am increasingly frustrated by people's unwillingness to try new things and subsequent impatience when said new things arent perfect immediately. You were the most reasonable on the forum thread by far, I am mostly just disappointed at Wuzzy's impatience and obstinance. |
| 12:42 |
Desour |
don't worry, I have (as of now) nothing against people directly complaining about me. also, you could read Wuzzy's constructively, as things to improve to get more acceptance from different people. if you see impatience, it just means that the end result is important for that person. I'm sure wuzzy is aware that things will still change more than a bit |
| 12:43 |
Desour |
(at least that's me projecting my feeling to others, thinking of when I do the same kind of early criticism) |
| 12:44 |
Desour |
s/read Wuzzy's/read Wuzzy's remarks |
| 12:45 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I do consider the points as things to improve, but I see his method of delivery as impatient ("what just happened?!" "same mistake AGAIN?? WTF") but maybe thats just me. |
| 12:46 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> To be fair, some things should have been clearer before we started adding stuff (like a clear statement on the page itself about plans and changes) |
| 12:48 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> We had the same problem here too, actually. Lesson learned: Set expectations clearly with both the contributors and users |
| 12:50 |
Desour |
yep, communication is key |
| 12:50 |
Desour |
and an official mission statement and end goal vision is still missing, right? |
| 12:51 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> An issue is open for that |
| 12:51 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/64 |
| 12:53 |
Desour |
yeah, I've seen that, just wanted to be sure I didn't miss something else, and talk bullshit :) |
| 12:55 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I dont think it was expected to be needed this early, as the immediate goal was migrating the dev wiki, then merging the other wiki to some extent, then fleshing out the long term plan ... but some things happened out of order and we neglectied public notices so ... :] |
| 12:55 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> -i |
| 13:56 |
rubenwardy |
migrating the dev wiki is straightforward and doesn't require a mission/goal statement |
| 13:56 |
rubenwardy |
when you start merging other wikis and adding new docs you need to decide what the aim of the subdomain is. What's in scope and what isn't |
| 13:56 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Exactly, and that 'when' happened before we did that ;p |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Read through this thread, the forum thread, and the new posts on the GH repo. I do think Wuzzy and others have a point, and yes the tone is very strong, but I advocate responding with patience and reminders that this project is very new and not yet "official" (which I've done, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!)  I take it Wuzzy has a history of stuff like this, I won't get into that 😉  I do think we should re-open |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/65 with a better title and have said as much in the issue itself. Moving away from GitHub is very possible and would be a good learning experience for me, we should at least experiment with it and see if critical features are irreplaceable, like GitHub Actions. |
| 14:42 |
Blockhead256 |
I don't want to speak for Wuzzy, but I don't think he'd mind nearly as much if it were on Codeberg instead |
| 14:47 |
Blockhead256 |
I'm trying to go through the IRC archive for this channel and there's dead discord image link after dead discord image link, not great |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> how far back are you going? Happy to look and see if those images are relevant or decorative |
| 14:50 |
Blockhead256 |
2024-12-14, a bunch of people sharing screenshots and drafting things |
| 14:51 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Migrating from github is just about the last concern right now, and frankly that's an org level decision |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I agree it's low priority, but it should remain on the backlog until a decision has been made. Makes sense that we store the DLO wiki on GH since other repos are stored on GH, but surely there is a way to hook into other mirrors, even if it's janky. I guess I just don't feel like the issue got the attention it deserved |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> And your response isn't quite accurate-- it already replaced the developer wiki |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> OK, good to know. This was done very recently, I assume? And all the relevant content has officially been migrated? |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> This project has been public for like 4 days |
| 14:54 |
Blockhead256 |
I can't speak officially, but I would see nothing of value has been lost |
| 14:56 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> It only went public once wsor moved the dev wiki contents to it, afaik |
| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> blockhead, most of the images aren't super relevant. Some decorative images, some silly ones, some images of lists of filenames, and some pictures of sample admonitions/notices (hugo-notice). The notices are the only relevant images I'd say but they haven't been fully incorporated into the repo AFAIK and if they have been, you can just find them on dev.luanti.org itself 🙂 |
| 14:58 |
Desour |
FYI, we already have an org on codeberg (<https://codeberg.org/luanti-org>) |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Wonder how much effort it would take for a chat bridge to re-upload files to a different file host before sending the message |
| 14:58 |
Desour |
putting one repo there, while the others are still on github wouldn't be that bad imo |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> It's public, but is it "official"? If we're considering this the new official, "default" location of docs, it does seem valuable to make some announcement. We may want to hold off until we're sure the new experience is as good as the old one, I can't speak on that side |
| 14:59 |
Blockhead256 |
thank you for looking into it Mark. I guess it's discord blocking access from browsers that aren't logged in |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> It is officially the dev wiki replacement but not yet officially the docs replacement |
| 15:00 |
Blockhead256 |
I think I'm gonna keep this project inside my luanti source tree under docs/dev.luanti.org, that way it'll be grepable just like the lua_api.md |
| 15:00 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> No problem Blockhead. Sounds good Green. Gonna go to work for the day, I'll check back at lunchtime 🙂 |
| 15:00 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> Discord didn't like people using it as a file host so media tokens outside discord expire quickly these days |
| 15:02 |
Blockhead256 |
funny thing is, I am actually signed into a discord account, it just won't apparently fetch it correctly unless I'm in-app |
| 15:42 |
|
Desour_ joined #minetest-docs |
| 16:31 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yep, they have started adding some funny tokens; i assume the client adds them to the discord CDN URLs, so outside of discord they'd just be missing |
| 17:12 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/blob/master/hugo.toml#L1 shouldn't this be dev.luanti.org |
| 17:14 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> it should be |
| 17:14 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> the CI script seems to override it anyways though |
| 17:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> dev.minetest.net resolves to dev.luanti.org for me. this seems problematic. was it the plan to shut down the dev wiki immediately? |
| 17:35 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> yes? |
| 17:35 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> wsor imported all of the contents of the old dev wiki into this one |
| 17:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well that explains why wuzzy is commenting on an unfinished product |
| 17:50 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> why does wuzzy think the site uses HTML frames |
| 17:50 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> I looked at the page source expecting old HTML gore and just saw correctly used semantical HTML elements |
| 21:27 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> I think a Luanti-specific stylesheet would go a long way in making the new site look more official and less default. I'll see if I can setup an a11y test framework as well. Â Not sure why Wuzzy thinks it uses frames, hopefully they clarify |
| 21:45 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> @luatic re #65: This project is moving away from being a wiki, so hard disagree on direct push access for known contributors. I'm already skeptical of direct push for us as it is. |
| 21:46 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> And we should probably come up with requirements and purpose for being on the Docs Team |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> was looking at the template, noticed it supports partials. in particular layouts/partials/docs/inject/content-before.html which is Before page content. if this has access to the front matter variables, could possibly use it to inject that as a title onto the page |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> relating to whatever issue number im to lazy to find right now |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> probably mess around with it tonight |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> also considering bumping the main sections max-width up to 100rem from 80rem |
| 22:42 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> It seems the docs team is mostly in agreement with #19 (docs merge) but we really need to attend to the mission statement and specifics surrounding that. |
| 22:46 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I am going to form a concise outline of what #19 intended on the mission statement issue (#64) in a couple hours (I need to take advantage of this decent weather) |
| 23:39 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> so you can do it, but it puts the markup outside of the article which is very much so not ideal |
| 23:39 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1319086577766629457/image.png?ex=6764ae9b&is=67635d1b&hm=5295c4beb6657e13be03cfc5e081f438a6fcb1cd7c6834130f7bc79ce74237e4& |
| 23:39 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> additionally you have to recreate the hover style for the pound style showing up since that only works within content |
| 23:57 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> thoughts? https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/67 |
