| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 01:20 |
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| 02:42 |
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| 02:55 |
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| 03:31 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well, it's not using type restriction on its generics lol |
| 04:00 |
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| 04:16 |
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| 04:16 |
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| 05:00 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Neko, I greatly appreciate your distaste for the raw pointers. But the output streams are so deeply ingrained into every facet of the engine, it would take a truly monstrous pr to replace them |
| 05:01 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I'm talking, 9/10 files you come across with an implementation |
| 05:05 |
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| 05:18 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> are you referring to me complaining about our log streaming? |
| 05:19 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> looool, i havent figured out exactly how our logging system works well enough, so i've just been using raw printf calls or iostreams |
| 05:21 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> I was already looking to do the, once thought to be impossible, soon... swiping out a lot of Irrlicht's builtin utilities. Might put on some music and zone out, just replacing shit bit by bit |
| 05:38 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> The only interface you need to logging is to use one of the streams to output (errorstream, warningstream, actionstream, infostream, verbosestream, tracestream) corresponding to the log level you want |
| 05:38 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> additionally, rawstream outputs to everything |
| 05:39 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> should probably not ever use that except for debug prints that you intend to remove |
| 05:40 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> The complexity is due to wanting it to be somewhat fast (each thread has its own local char buffer, so that each operator<< does not require a separate mutex lock and fwrite) |
| 05:40 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> and also so that verbosestream is (almost) zero-cost when verbose logging is disabled |
| 05:41 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> or tracestream more importantly |
| 06:30 |
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| 07:33 |
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| 07:56 |
sfan5 |
nekobit: what would be the practical advantages? |
| 07:58 |
sfan5 |
supporting opengl and opengl es is a solid basis and if apple actually drops opengl they will have to live with the consequences of drastically reduced application availability, because few people have the resources to maintain a special graphics backend just for one platform (nor will we) |
| 07:59 |
sfan5 |
what I don't know is how opengl looks on consoles if we ever want to expand to that in the future |
| 07:59 |
sfan5 |
also note that with the unified opengl3 / gles2 driver we have in irrlicht the "get rid of awful legacy gl code" reason starts to fade |
| 08:00 |
sfan5 |
lastly a question: if we were to use bgfx, what happens to our glsl shaders? we can't afford to maintain multiple variants |
| 08:00 |
nekobit |
opengl support is already ass on Windows, and directX comes out with new versions each time i forget what year it is |
| 08:01 |
nekobit |
macOS? i think thats quite the audience to ignore, esp considering some of our devs |
| 08:01 |
nekobit |
what about Vulkan? |
| 08:01 |
nekobit |
are we maintaining multiple variants? |
| 08:02 |
nekobit |
https://bkaradzic.github.io/bgfx/tools.html#shader-compiler-shaderc |
| 08:02 |
nekobit |
but it sems like some things would need to be ported |
| 08:03 |
nekobit |
its essentially vanilla GLSL tough with some nice changes |
| 08:03 |
sfan5 |
"nice" is relative but that answers that |
| 08:03 |
nekobit |
i really cant objectify why we'd want to keep irrlicht's gpu shit which is probably full of little issues |
| 08:03 |
nekobit |
tons of games are backing and battletesting BGFX from what i see |
| 08:04 |
nekobit |
irrlicht? supertux. Take it or leave it. |
| 08:04 |
nekobit |
*kart |
| 08:04 |
nekobit |
i dont trust a game that makes disney sound effects to justify an outdated graphics library and-then-some |
| 08:05 |
nekobit |
nice isnt relative considering its done to be portable |
| 08:06 |
nekobit |
if you can objectify against bgfx over anything else, than be my guest |
| 08:06 |
nekobit |
but ive dug around it all night, especially with EFL as a stub library, and i genuinely cant see why we couldn't consider it |
| 08:06 |
sfan5 |
not really. I have worked with projects that use shaderc directly without a GLSL dialect and it works fine. |
| 08:07 |
sfan5 |
either way "irrlicht's code is probably bad" is not a good reason. have you read the code of the unified driver? |
| 08:07 |
nekobit |
ive read enough irrlicht code and ive already gotten sick of it mate |
| 08:08 |
sfan5 |
that's a no then |
| 08:08 |
nekobit |
its a no |
| 08:08 |
nekobit |
i mean ive even though of throwing bgfx as an added driver to irrlicht for now |
| 08:09 |
nekobit |
shaders might be a hack for that |
| 08:09 |
nekobit |
but if its stable, and people seem to like it... then we decide further, i suppose, not sure what point i was making? |
| 08:10 |
sfan5 |
"opengl support is already ass on Windows" citation needed btw. vendor drivers provide the implementation and it's just as important for gaming as other apis (vulkan) |
| 08:11 |
nekobit |
for amd gpus |
| 08:11 |
nekobit |
all i can say |
| 08:11 |
sfan5 |
no, for all gpus |
| 08:11 |
nekobit |
pardn me, opengl spport is already ass on amd gpus |
| 08:11 |
nekobit |
sorry, just tired |
| 08:11 |
nekobit |
but if we are already considering axing out irrlicht's gui shit and its mediocre libraries, then.. hard to justify keeping its |
| 08:12 |
nekobit |
im gonna sleep |
| 08:12 |
sfan5 |
oh that. news to me |
| 08:12 |
sfan5 |
as for macOS we have been lucky if we barely have even a single person to look at macOS issues so it's not like (effectively) the platform is super important to us |
| 08:12 |
nekobit |
ruben would like to chat? |
| 08:12 |
nekobit |
and probably many players |
| 08:12 |
nekobit |
its as gross as keeping irrlicht than to justify not caring about macOS users |
| 08:13 |
nekobit |
not that i care about them either |
| 08:13 |
nekobit |
just sayin |
| 08:15 |
sfan5 |
an open source project lives from its contributions and we've barely had a macos dev in the past. if apple now decides that everyone supporting macOS has to invest 40 hours writing a new 3d backend then we will simply not do that. not because we don't like macos or because someone decided not to support them but simply because we CAN'T. |
| 08:15 |
sfan5 |
anyway |
| 08:15 |
sfan5 |
in conclusion: I can very well believe that bgfx is generally better than whatever irrlicht (or we in the meantime) came up with but personally I'd like some concrete arguments for it |
| 08:16 |
nekobit |
with bgfx we wont have to |
| 08:16 |
nekobit |
i dont think anyone wants to |
| 08:16 |
nekobit |
only way to keep them afloat in the case of opengl being dropped (very likely, even if they "lose users", dont forget that x32 was dropped and essentially killed steam), all we would have is ANGLE for that |
| 08:16 |
nekobit |
and ive never used nor can i vouch for ANGLE other than what is written on the box |
| 08:17 |
sfan5 |
there is also a proprietary implementation of GL on Metal https://moltengl.com/ |
| 08:17 |
nekobit |
we talked in 'cord a tiny bit, i want a graphics dev to really vouch for it though |
| 08:18 |
nekobit |
but as i said, we are obviously planning on axing out a lot of irrlicht, its been mentioned far too often, so it all boils down to if we should keep the most mediocre thing that irrlicht does well if we strip it of all its nutrients |
| 08:19 |
nekobit |
gute nacht |
| 08:20 |
sfan5 |
if you want an opinion from other people than me feel free to open an issue |
| 08:21 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> yah will in the morning maybe but let me sleep before i die |
| 08:21 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If you want to use bgfx that's going to need to literally be an entire development 0.Y.0 because that's going to break so many commits |
| 08:21 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> which is my fault, not urs |
| 08:21 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> its gonna break shit fo sho |
| 08:22 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> but we already seem to have a policy on axing old commits |
| 08:24 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I can only imagine the hell it will be to remove the irrlicht pointers |
| 08:24 |
sfan5 |
here's the code I mean by the way https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/irr/src/OpenGL/Driver.cpp |
| 08:24 |
sfan5 |
this is rather new, and different from the mess the OpenGL 1 driver is |
| 08:24 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Let me 👃 |
| 08:26 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/irr/src/OpenGL/Driver.cpp#L1684 |
| 08:26 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> ? |
| 08:27 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> i mean dont think youd ever need that many but just seemed funny hah |
| 08:28 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> What is an scolor |
| 08:29 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Scholar |
| 08:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You're not supposed to use cassert anymore |
| 08:33 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Maybe I should just start firing up prs but it might send me into a void of never ending insanity |
| 08:42 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> There are pointers getting set to 0 instead of null, no docs, uses non standard types, I have been defeated by words |
| 08:52 |
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| 08:53 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I think the non standard types, possibly an easy fix. Just tedious |
| 09:26 |
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| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<andrey2470t> Please anybody re-review the ambient light PR with the new fixes included recently? |
| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<andrey2470t> I would like to try to get it merged in 5.10 |
| 10:23 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> Reminder: 5 days to merge features, then it's feature freeze |
| 11:08 |
MTDiscord |
<theidealist> I hope the feature freeze isn't as long as last time |
| 11:20 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> The goal is to end it in two weeks, as agreed a few months ago, following the new release cycle |
| 11:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it'd be great if someone reviews the animated gltf pr so we can ship animated gltf in 5.10 (and not just static gltf). i can offer to review a pr in return. |
| 11:26 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> I guess we won't be able to enable SDL by default with 5.10, too many things missing |
| 11:27 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> #14964 and #15010 |
| 11:27 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/14964 -- SDL: Use scancodes for keybindings by y5nw |
| 11:27 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15010 -- OS doesn't receive keys captured by Minetest [SDL] |
| 11:28 |
rubenwardy |
:'( maybe december |
| 11:28 |
rubenwardy |
SDL2 for Christmas |
| 11:28 |
Desour |
which december? |
| 11:41 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Zughy> Next one is end of January |
| 13:22 |
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| 14:20 |
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| 16:01 |
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| 16:23 |
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| 16:49 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Rockin' around the SDL. Have a fancy minetest scene |
| 16:55 |
sfan5 |
speaking of feature freeze: #14659 |
| 16:55 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/14659 -- [no sq] Generic IPC mechanism between Lua envs by sfan5 |
| 17:22 |
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| 17:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i think i can look at that tomorrow |
| 18:38 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> ill try to roll my scrollbar fixes tonight maybe |
| 18:38 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> before feature freeze |
| 18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> it will improve trackpad scrolling dramatically |
| 18:42 |
MTDiscord |
<cscscscscscscscscscscscscscscscs> and in general |
| 19:29 |
Krock |
will merge #15244 and #14623 in 15 minutes |
| 19:29 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15244 -- Document performance cost of use_texture_alpha=blend by appgurueu |
| 19:30 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/14623 -- scrollcontainer: Add automatic scrollbar calculation by SmallJoker |
| 19:44 |
Krock |
merging |
| 19:45 |
Krock |
done |
| 19:50 |
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| 19:54 |
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| 19:58 |
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| 22:35 |
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| 22:48 |
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| 22:52 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> sfan5: seems https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/15257 has the same pr linked twice as like conflicts |
| 23:05 |
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