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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2023-07-25

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Time Nick Message
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11:47 rubenwardy GitLab pipelines are failing due to missing IrrlichtMT https://gitlab.com/minetest/minetest/-/jobs/4735582126
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13:38 celeron55 what's the current core developer opinion about github? (curious, no plans)
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14:01 nrz our userbase it installed here, we have workflows and it seems to work
14:03 celeron55 yes, that's the big positive side. my status with it is, i'm waiting for microsoft accounts to be forced upon us and then we quit (to codeberg, i guess)
14:03 Zughy[m] I think it'd be fair asking to the core team in general. My two cents here: #12324
14:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12324 -- Eventually move to a free git platform
14:04 pgimeno non core dev here, but I'm all for the move to codeberg - I'm already there in fact
14:05 celeron55 Zughy[m]: yeah of course, i take answers from anyone anyway so didn't word that right
14:05 pgimeno also, wasn't Minetest banned from Google Play because of a copyright violation or something like that? was that ever solved?
14:09 rubenwardy I've already moved my stuff to GitLab (although with the CI limitations I wouldn't recommend moving there. Codeberg looks like the best bet for Minetest)
14:10 rubenwardy We've already essentially lost some contributors, including pgimeno, due to using GitHub
14:10 celeron55 pgimeno: i collected and sent them a (big) bunch of authorship and licensing information during a long email thread, trying to comply with their ridiculous requirements, and a week after the deadline google lifted the ban and asked the app to be reuploaded
14:11 pgimeno ok, I was concerned that Minetest could end up being banned from Github for similar reasons
14:11 rubenwardy GitHub is a lot better at handling DMCAs than Play Store is
14:11 rubenwardy they even log all of them in an open repo
14:11 rubenwardy but yeah, there's potentially a conflict of interest
14:11 celeron55 the copyright trolls hired by mojang (=m$) have also tried to harrass me by trying to get the dns provider to drop the domain. however, they're doing their job nicely and just forward the stuff to me without acting on it
14:12 celeron55 it's of course not a secret who the provider it is: it is name.com
14:12 celeron55 -it
14:13 celeron55 i'm not aware of any known history of them pandering to stuff like this which is partly why i chose them
14:15 celeron55 pgimeno: i suspect mojang/m$ didn't respond to google at all and google tried to give them more time. but this is just my suspicion
14:16 rubenwardy *tracer/appdetex, not mojang
14:17 rubenwardy to be precise
14:17 celeron55 well of course. but i would expect them to forward my stuff, or be instructed to just not care
14:18 celeron55 there's no transparency to this at all, it's kind of stupid
14:19 rubenwardy yeah. I suspect that in most cases, the recipient gives up. So they probably rely on that
14:19 celeron55 anyway. there's a clear way out of github. compared to that, there's no clear way out of dns, for example
14:20 celeron55 of course github could make it harder to export the repos elsewhere. it would be good to be aware of the possible added work if they decided to make automatic exports impossible
14:20 rubenwardy I have a recent backup of the repo and issues on GitLab
14:23 celeron55 but MT is on good foundation via having the domain and spreading on multiple platforms
14:23 celeron55 btw, the website could be a nice guinea pig to move to codeberg, if their pages system has the needed features
14:24 nrz at the end celeron55 will host minetest core on its openbsd with gitea
14:24 nrz ūüėĄ
14:25 Zughy[m] AFAIK Codeberg allows an easy migration from Github, but I've never tried really
14:25 celeron55 i mean, if someone wants to have a go with moving the website, i don't have anything against it. it doesn't take part in dev and user workflows like the engine, game and tool repos do
14:26 celeron55 and the direct hosting makes it a possible target for m$
14:27 celeron55 i haven't read the github pages rules, but they are probably stricter than for regular repos
14:27 Zughy[m] About the website: on the long run, it'd be nice to redesign it so to make it more appealing. I don't know if this complicates the matter with GH
14:27 Zughy[m] but hey, main menu first
14:29 rubenwardy different skills, different people could do each
14:29 celeron55 all i can say to any redesigns is: yes please just go for it if you're interested, all of our designs are either bad or have become dated due to new trends over the years
14:30 Zughy[m] rubenwardy: I don't see professional artists (or wants to be) in this community ūüĎÄ
14:30 celeron55 if something is bad enough, you don't need to be an artist to improve it 8-)
14:30 rubenwardy also design and art are different
14:31 Zughy[m] *I don't see professional designers
14:31 celeron55 maybe, maybe not. with enough minimalism there's not a lot in between
14:32 celeron55 (don't hire an *artist* to make a minimalist *design*, though. it won't work)
14:38 ROllerozxa having a carousel or even some kind of video at the top instead of the boring MTG cave background would be an improvement
14:38 rubenwardy just make CDB the homepage
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14:39 ROllerozxa heh yeah basically
14:42 ROllerozxa though, having some large button on the home page that's like "browse the Minetest content available!" that points to CDB would be good, I know it's already linked in the navbar but it should be as visible as possible
14:48 ROllerozxa (and the features-blog-gallery sections could use reshuffling, preferably there should be some screenshots at the top before you get to the dry players-developers feature list business pitch)
14:49 celeron55 definitely allocate a space on the front page for some dynamic contentdb stuff
14:50 celeron55 the simplest would probably be to add an api to contentdb to fetch a random background and replace the cave with that
14:51 celeron55 i can't imagine that being difficult
14:52 celeron55 carousel... i don't know, just press f5 8)
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15:03 Desour hi, I just wanted to say that I support moving to codeberg
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15:51 nore personally, I'm used to github (and I use it for work) but I don't mind moving to another platform
15:52 nore we also have the option to self-host, but I'm not sure we want to go down that road
15:52 celeron55 it's too expensive both in time and money
15:54 celeron55 if anyone hasn't read about codeberg, i suggest you do. it's kind of special
15:54 MTDiscord <warr1024> I use GitLab myself, but it's been on my personal todo list for a while to setup mirrors on a bunch of other popular free hosting platforms.  Any free host can become enshittified with very little notice, so having established backups would be ideal.  It helps though that I only use the git features, not the lab ones, so I have very little lock-in.
15:56 celeron55 https://docs.codeberg.org/getting-started/what-is-codeberg/#what-is-codeberg-e.v.%3F
15:56 celeron55 >Codeberg can be considered as community-owned
15:59 nrz like github before sold ūüėĄ
15:59 celeron55 it's funny, honestly the looming codeberg future feels a bit like the looming github future felt in 2010-2011 when minetest source was hosted on bitbucket
16:00 celeron55 codeberg being community owned is the largest differentiator here. a community owned non-profit is unlikely to sell
16:02 celeron55 (back then bitbucket didn't support git. can you believe?)
16:06 celeron55 for a while gitlab was somewhat enticing, but not enough
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16:16 MTDiscord <warr1024> I started on gitorious, back in the days before they became GitLab.  When they first got renamed, the future looked bright, but as of right now, it sort of just feels like a relatively minor difference from GH.  They're a bit less closed than GH, but not a lot.  They're also a bit slower/clunkier than GH, but not a lot.  It's basically Diet GitHub.
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17:21 celeron55 i'm not sure if any for-profit company can compete with github
17:22 celeron55 the sale to an unethical buyer is going to happen some day
17:22 celeron55 so it's essentially the same
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19:07 v-rob I would not mind using something other than GitHub.  The primary reason that all of my stuff is still on GitHub because I just haven't taken the time to find something else and migrate.
19:07 v-rob If other people are all-in for us migrating, then I say go for it.
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19:41 sfan5 i've never bothered to reply to #12324 but basically there's lots of reasons to stay with github and the fears of the time when MS bought github haven't really materialized
19:41 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12324 -- Eventually move to a free git platform
19:43 jonadab I mean, the thing about git is, the public repository is just a distribution mechanism.  Any active dev will have 100% of the data and can push to any public repository at any time, so if anything _happens_ to the existing one, it's a minor blip.
19:44 jonadab In fact there's no particular reason not to have multiple public repositories.  The NetHack devs push to github and to nethack.org for example.
19:45 jonadab In fact I think they have it set up so that happens automatically.
19:45 MTDiscord <wsor4035> have/had that with gitlab
19:46 jonadab I used to have a codebase hosted on Gitorious; when that died, moving to github was not difficult.
19:47 jonadab This is all in reference to the repo itself of course.  If you're using github's other features, that could be another matter.
20:26 MTDiscord <warr1024> Minetest uses GitHub.  That's both Git and Hub.  The git stuff would be pretty trivial to mirror elsewhere, and we could change which platform is "central" and which ones are mere mirrors at basically any time.  The "hub" stuff is trickier though.  Issue tracking and PRs are not a part of git itself; while they're common enough, there can be some legwork in converting from one platform to another.  Stuff like CI is IIRC even moreso
20:26 MTDiscord not trivially portable, and capabilities vary between platforms.
20:27 MTDiscord <warr1024> I've avoided the hub/lab stuff in github/gitlab and ... well, it's had mixed results.  I think it can work for an individual who does all their own issue triage and stuff, but for a larger team, the tools really make a difference for coordination.
20:42 jonadab Pull requests are not particularly important to migrate.  The actual _pulls_ (if they happen) will be in the git history no problem.  The requests...  if the pull happens, then it's moot, and if the pull doesn't happen, there's usually a reason.
20:42 jonadab The issue tracker... could be a bigger issue.
20:42 jonadab Dunno what CI is in this context.
20:44 jonadab It's all kind of theoretical for the moment, as there's no indication I'm aware of that anything is going to happen to github in the near term.  Though it doesn't hurt to think a little about what if.
20:56 v-rob If I had to give a guess given Minetest's inertia, we'll only move to another platform if/when GitHub starts imposing bad restrictions.
20:56 v-rob But if we stay, I'm not particularly worried for the present, and if we move, I'm totally fine with that.
21:02 MTDiscord <warr1024> It's probably worth at least a few people going through some exercises to make sure that we could move if we want to, because when those bad restrictions happen, we might not have much notice (or we might misestimate how bad restrictions are actually going to be and only discover they ARE bad when they come into force).  But yeah, beside that, I don't expect to see much movement on this.
21:22 v-rob I think someone tested out migrating Minetest's issues to GitLab.  Don't know who it was or how it went.
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22:32 MTDiscord <luatic> jonadab: Pull requests are particularly important to migrate, esp. the reasons why they weren't pulled yet (i.e. the code review and the discussion).
22:47 MTDiscord <warr1024> Actually, pull requests that were outright rejected (not just not "yet") are valuable too.  I often find myself pointing back to old closed stuff to say "your suggestion was already proposed, attempted, and it failed, and the reasons are documented here."  Successfully pulled PRs and closed issues are also valuable, because not all of the reasoning behind the decisions made end up making it into the commit messages or code comments.
22:48 MTDiscord <warr1024> In a way, the "product" that the Minetest team is making should be considered to encompass all recorded public artifacts and discussion, including the issues, PRs, comments, and probably at least some segments of the -dev IRC logs.
22:50 MTDiscord <warr1024> In a way, the GPL requires distribution of code in a "preferred form for editing" and we've sort of taken for granted that that means "human-readable source code", but in a way the "preferred form" is an evolving standard and it's come to encompass things like commit history, at least, if not already issue trackers and other discussion, because these are the circumstances under which development actually happens.  It'd not just be a
22:50 MTDiscord shame to leave behind any of that due to platform move compatibility issues, but it would really be disruptive to the whole mission...
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