| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:38 |
Zughy[m] |
meeting reminder in less than 24 hours |
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| 17:38 |
Krock |
22 minutes until meeting |
| 17:43 |
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| 18:01 |
Krock |
It is time. Desour Zughy[m] sfan5 rubenwardy |
| 18:02 |
rubenwardy |
here |
| 18:03 |
Krock |
> Where should we post next meetings notice? (Zughy) |
| 18:03 |
Krock |
(slowly ramping up) ideas? |
| 18:04 |
Krock |
this is IMO a step back but I suppose we cannot do much else than to use the Discussions alternative |
| 18:04 |
Desour |
maybe put all that belong to one major version into a separate article? |
| 18:05 |
rubenwardy |
? |
| 18:05 |
Krock |
I think it's about the GitHub teams page that is about to shut down in May |
| 18:05 |
Desour |
i.e. one wiki page for 5.7, one for 5.8 and so on |
| 18:05 |
Desour |
ahh |
| 18:06 |
Krock |
the changelog is fine as-is |
| 18:06 |
Krock |
s/changelog/meetings wiki/ |
| 18:07 |
Guest54 |
you could always make a repo with markdown/rst/asciidoc files and use that? |
| 18:07 |
Krock |
teams pages were handy to core devs about upcoming meetings and to discuss security issues |
| 18:07 |
rubenwardy |
https://github.com/minetest/discussions/discussions |
| 18:08 |
Krock |
both are not suited for GitHub Discussions |
| 18:09 |
Krock |
well I don't know. perhaps #minetest-staff will be again more used for such things? |
| 18:09 |
rubenwardy |
Ok, I've moved it from team discussions to a private GitHub discussions repo |
| 18:10 |
Krock |
hmm |
| 18:10 |
Krock |
I see. |
| 18:10 |
rubenwardy |
ah cool https://github.com/orgs/minetest/discussions |
| 18:11 |
rubenwardy |
it's basically the same but stored in a different place |
| 18:11 |
Krock |
it's a more convenient layout |
| 18:16 |
Krock |
rubenwardy: do you see anywhere who has got read access to this page? |
| 18:16 |
rubenwardy |
I added MTE + MTG + triagers |
| 18:16 |
Krock |
alright |
| 18:17 |
rubenwardy |
it's based on https://github.com/minetest/discussions/settings/access |
| 18:17 |
rubenwardy |
https://rwdy.uk/2dgnr.png |
| 18:17 |
Krock |
404 on my side, as well as the page itself when trying to access without cookies |
| 18:17 |
rubenwardy |
yeah guess it requires admin privs |
| 18:17 |
Krock |
404 is a bad error for this but I guess that's for security |
| 18:18 |
Guest54 |
well, otherwise you'd be able to infer if something was there |
| 18:18 |
Krock |
that's the purpose of error 403. as long you cannot see or change anything it does not matter |
| 18:18 |
Krock |
moving on |
| 18:18 |
Krock |
> Complaints about connected glass changes - changes the meaning of glasslike_framed_optional and there's no way for texture packs to control it. |
| 18:19 |
Krock |
was there any consensus about this yet? |
| 18:19 |
Guest54 |
it's not only that, it doesn't work for anything not 16×16 |
| 18:19 |
Krock |
I've seen a few suggestions to let texture packs decide but for an upcoming release that's out of reach |
| 18:20 |
Krock |
"does not work" is solely due to the nature of the frame thickness |
| 18:20 |
Desour |
Guest54: mods should test nodes with that drawtype with the setting on and off, so 16x16 not working is irrelevant here |
| 18:20 |
Desour |
non-16x16* |
| 18:21 |
Guest54 |
Krock it is not necessarily due to the frame thickness, some glasslike textures have fuzzy frames that work perfectly with the non-frame rendering, but would need something like a 9-slice connected glass to work with the frame one. |
| 18:21 |
Desour |
if someone uses a texture pack, they can also change the setting. |
| 18:22 |
Krock |
how many people have complained about this so far? 2? |
| 18:22 |
Guest54 |
Desour we can agree on “should” all we want, it doesn't change that the default settings used to work and now they don't and no remedy is given to server or game devs who explicitly used this for “if you have a texture pack that works with it, enable it” |
| 18:25 |
Guest54 |
Krock maybe “how many people have complained from the ones who tested this more than whoever approved that change” would be a better metric |
| 18:25 |
Desour |
we could just revert the change and open the issue again, so complainers will shut up |
| 18:25 |
Guest54 |
also note that the people who wanted connected glass the most dislike the frames |
| 18:25 |
Guest54 |
they want something more like optifine |
| 18:26 |
Guest54 |
i.e. frameless (9-slice?) |
| 18:27 |
Krock |
well tbh I am getting tired of this discussion. usually there would be a few core devs around to give inputs to approve/disapprove but today it's dry as ever |
| 18:27 |
Krock |
I'd be in for reverting. Opinions, Desour, rubenwardy ? |
| 18:28 |
Guest54 |
would it help if i provide all the previous issues across different projects regarding the thing? (where it was always rejected) |
| 18:28 |
Guest54 |
like, to evaluate the arguments |
| 18:28 |
rubenwardy |
I don't feel to strongly either way, just as long as a decision is made |
| 18:28 |
Krock |
Guest54: feel free to put them into #8290 |
| 18:28 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8290 -- Enable Connected Glass By Default |
| 18:30 |
Krock |
there's also some IRC discussion which I no longer can find |
| 18:33 |
Guest54 |
i am not logged in to github right now (i need to dust off a machine for it, will do soon), but here is the mtg discussion about framed obsidian glass as default (rejected): https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1547 |
| 18:34 |
Guest54 |
and here is the discussion for separating glasslikes into framed and not framed in mtg: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2434 and here is another one https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2326 |
| 18:34 |
Guest54 |
in general, it seems it comes up every few years and is rejected (except this time) |
| 18:35 |
Guest54 |
the arguments are also the same every time and everyone agreed using optionally connected glass in many mods by default was a mistake … |
| 18:35 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy krock would it help if i volunteer to make an additional glasslike drawtype that is more like optifine? |
| 18:36 |
Krock |
I like the current frames, though. |
| 18:36 |
Krock |
not that it would prevent you from adding another mode, ofc. |
| 18:36 |
Guest54 |
i would just add it so that people who want the connected glass can have it like optifine. i *think* PrairieWind is one of them, am i right? |
| 18:37 |
Guest54 |
also Zughy[m] do you have an opinion as a texture creator? soothing32 sure does look different connected (i.e. largely invisble except for the frames) |
| 18:38 |
Desour |
the current connected glass looks good. a separate type should not replace the current one. such a new drawtype would probably not be high priority => you can implement it of course, but don't expect it to be merged fast |
| 18:39 |
Guest54 |
Desour i was more asking “if i pledge to make a connected glass drawtype to end the discussion once and for all in the future, would that convince anyone today to change the default back?” |
| 18:39 |
Desour |
(with fast I mean minetest-speed fast, so weeks or months) |
| 18:39 |
Guest54 |
i have been offline for months, i can wait |
| 18:42 |
Zughy[m] |
Non connected glass is just ugly imho |
| 18:47 |
Guest54 |
it's a question of taste, but generally it depends on your texture pack really. the handpainted style for example does not work connected as I see it, regardless of frame length. anyways, i doubt anyone is interested in the details of glasslike rendering much rn, because otherwise someone else would have complained much more than me. |
| 18:47 |
Guest54 |
is there any other topic? |
| 18:50 |
pgimeno |
what are development versions and feature freezes for, if not to revert changes that turn out to cause trouble, so they can be examined better in a latter iteration? |
| 18:51 |
Krock |
based on the discussion from https://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2023-03-26#i_6067064 I now revert #13242 |
| 18:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> tbh, it seems just one person is very vocally whining, is there anyone else who has raised concerns? |
| 18:51 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13242 -- Enable connected glass by default by PrairieAstronomer |
| 18:52 |
Guest54 |
that confuses me also, i thought reverting/disabling something that causes several problems at once before a release was business as usual (see shadows, debug info) |
| 18:52 |
Krock |
@Jonathon That's also what I think but I'm getting tired of this |
| 18:53 |
Guest54 |
Jonathon, you can try all matter of texture packs with it yourself. the argument is not “(non-)connected glass as more beautiful”, it is “the defaults used to work with everything and now they don't”. |
| 18:56 |
Guest54 |
besides, contentdb should probably lint texture packs so that they do provide a usable special tile for connected glass, because if they are not, it's even uglier (try 7px with connected glass, it's arguably the fault of the texture pack author though) |
| 18:57 |
Krock |
> 5.7.0 release |
| 18:57 |
rubenwardy |
looks like it's just particle spawner stuff remaining |
| 18:57 |
Krock |
right |
| 18:58 |
Krock |
if it is wanted, I can reduce the modified code lines to keep the patch shorter |
| 18:58 |
Guest54 |
in case anyone wants to implement ”proper” connected glass (i.e. frameless, with good creative texture support), 2 days ago someone pointed out in an issue that you need like 46 textures in minecraft to give the texture artist full creative control, so i was wrong about the 9-slice it seems |
| 18:58 |
Guest54 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11546#issuecomment-1491504600 |
| 18:58 |
Krock |
but compatibility is generally easily tested by using clients only a few commits apart |
| 18:59 |
Krock |
so if you have some inputs on these PRs it would be great to share them |
| 18:59 |
Guest54 |
Krock can i help compat testing somehow? if so, where are the instructions? |
| 19:00 |
Guest54 |
regarding release, i may have found a crash on a corrupted texture file, but i can't reproduce right now (something something me writing the wrong bits by accident, i was also able to crash sxiv doing that). would this hold up your release? if not, i'll not hurry about reproducing it. |
| 19:00 |
Krock |
Guest54: instructions are here #13199 |
| 19:00 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13199 -- Particle spawner tween properties for old fields are not sent to clients |
| 19:00 |
Guest54 |
thx |
| 19:00 |
Krock |
the [png issue is already fixed FWIW |
| 19:00 |
Guest54 |
no, another crash |
| 19:01 |
Guest54 |
simply a malformed file because i messed something up, but i seem to have gotten rid of that file using ”git clean” or so by accident |
| 19:02 |
Guest54 |
i.e. most i can say right now is “if you fuzz all texture loaders, you'll get a crash”, which isn't much (and also hard to do on short notice since the unit tests for irrlichtmt are gone) |
| 19:02 |
Guest54 |
i'll report back when i have it |
| 19:03 |
Krock |
great, thanks. |
| 19:04 |
Krock |
is there anything else to discuss? |
| 19:04 |
Krock |
urgent PRs, issues? |
| 19:09 |
Desour |
should we do something about https://github.com/orgs/minetest/discussions/57 before the release? |
| 19:09 |
Krock |
sfan's idea is good. I can submit a patch for that |
| 19:10 |
Krock |
should be rather trivial |
| 19:10 |
Guest54 |
maybe it's the wrong time to ask, but why do yo uhave private development discussions anyways? is this a sensitive topic, security or so? |
| 19:10 |
Desour |
Guest54: yes |
| 19:10 |
Krock |
this one in particular: yes. |
| 19:11 |
Guest54 |
i see thx |
| 19:22 |
rubenwardy |
the MTG fix is https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/3022 |
| 19:23 |
rubenwardy |
Guest54: private discussions are used for security discussions before they're made public, and for meeting notices (Which are also posted here) |
| 19:31 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy why does that fix not just strip STX and ETX? (i assume those to be the problematic bytes) |
| 19:31 |
luk3yx |
Guest54: I believe it was because there wasn't any reason for them to accept other control codes |
| 19:32 |
rubenwardy |
Guest54: not sure why you're asking me rather than @luatic |
| 19:32 |
Guest54 |
well as long as it's not on an engine level … \0 i understand though |
| 19:32 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy oh sory |
| 19:32 |
MTDiscord |
<rubenwardy> @Lars |
| 19:32 |
luk3yx |
I did ask about them blocking DEL |
| 19:32 |
luk3yx |
<Lars> I'm blocking it because it's an ASCII control character and there's no reason to use those |
| 19:33 |
luk3yx |
<Lars> Why would you want DEL in a formspec field? |
| 19:35 |
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| 19:35 |
Guest54 |
ig as long as utf-8 mostly passes through, i'd not be worried about breakage |
| 19:36 |
appguru |
yeah, I'm preferring to be overly cautious here |
| 19:36 |
Guest54 |
i mean this only affects mtg, so i can still have a “unicode book” with all the control codes, right? no harm done. |
| 19:37 |
appguru |
yeah, this is a MTG PR |
| 19:37 |
appguru |
C0 control codes have no place in "text" |
| 19:37 |
appguru |
(that said, of the C0 control codes, I only know that \0 and \27 can cause Minetest to behave funny; the former for obvious reasons, the latter because of color & translation escape codes) |
| 19:37 |
Krock |
uuuh I cannot reproduce this issue. pasting more than approx. 200 KB on my system does not work |
| 19:38 |
appguru |
It's not (just) about pasting |
| 19:38 |
appguru |
Modified clients and netcat can be used to send malicious input just as well |
| 19:38 |
appguru |
You'll probably have to modify your client (e.g. to take the first char of your msg and repeat it 8 million times) to reproduce this |
| 19:39 |
Guest54 |
modified clients definitely already do send formspecs to exploit stuff. in mcl2 the formspec for ender chests was only sent to the client when the chest was opened – some funny people just submitted the formspec results without ever having seen the form, using a CSM. |
| 19:43 |
Guest54 |
Krock here is a template for sending whatever you want that fleckenstein once wrote to do what i just described, you might be able to pre-fill it or so? https://github.com/dragonfireclient/enderchest/blob/master/init.lua |
| 19:45 |
Krock |
#13380 |
| 19:45 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13380 -- Limit formspec fields to 640K by SmallJoker |
| 19:46 |
Guest54 |
Krock does this matter for inventory formspecs of shulkers full of shulkers? |
| 19:46 |
Krock |
item stacks are not formspec fields |
| 19:47 |
Guest54 |
so this is only “no one should copypaste the entire history of mankind into a book” ig? |
| 19:48 |
Krock |
well.. my system did not allow to paste a bit more than 200 KiB anyway |
| 19:48 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy would you maybe give me a download of cdb so i can try some semgrep things? e.g. looking for wrong usage of string:find() with last parameter not plain (that can go crashy fast) or finding dupes. i'll report what i find of course and how i fonud it. |
| 19:50 |
Guest54 |
Krock i'd ask cora or some other admin of a server what's the longest legit formspec input they had instead of just eyeballing it. i mean … a sane limit might just be a lot slower. in the other block game i believe you can put 319200 bytes in a book (79800 characters × 4 bytes because lol astral plane), but i obv did not test that. |
| 19:51 |
Guest54 |
lower, not slower |
| 19:51 |
rubenwardy |
feels like it would be best to do that using the ContentDB API |
| 19:51 |
Guest54 |
rubenwardy obviously, i just want to experiment to see if it is worth it |
| 19:51 |
rubenwardy |
download all packages I mean |
| 19:52 |
Guest54 |
tbh i didn't think it would be appropriate to just download HUGE amounts of data without asking you |
| 20:05 |
Desour |
Krock: chat is already size-limited to 64ki due to packet serialization, right? |
| 20:05 |
Krock |
depends in which direction you look at it |
| 20:06 |
Krock |
client --> server should already be limited |
| 20:06 |
Krock |
well "should". I cannot tell for sure |
| 20:07 |
luk3yx |
There's a chat_message_max_size setting that limits client to server chat messages |
| 20:08 |
Krock |
yet another somewhat useless setting that could be replaced by a hard limit f 500 characters |
| 20:08 |
Guest54 |
Krock do unit tests for the network packet handling exist? |
| 20:09 |
Krock |
yes |
| 20:11 |
sfan5 |
@luatic can you fix this in MTG https://i.imgur.com/koDjSyg.gif |
| 20:16 |
Krock |
oh my god. entirely unplayable |
| 20:16 |
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| 20:17 |
Desour |
yeah, "1/0" is past-the-end |
| 20:39 |
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| 20:47 |
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| 21:11 |
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| 21:13 |
Zughy[m] |
why the fuck "connected glass" has been reverted? |
| 21:24 |
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| 21:44 |
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| 21:45 |
kilbith |
because of the prick called erlehmann |
| 21:45 |
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| 21:47 |
rubenwardy |
which window has glass behind it? https://rwdy.uk/vpmlb.png |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<RisingLeaf> is it possible to determine? |
| 21:50 |
rubenwardy |
it's not |
| 21:52 |
Pexin |
as intended. which demonstrates it should be determined by the server. as such, changing the default optional mode is a bit pointless at least. |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> I think that glass nodes should have some sort of "impurities" in that case |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> like glass scratches |
| 21:58 |
Pexin |
normal glass already does |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> but it also has the ugly outline |
| 22:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Seems like glasslike_framed_optional was a mistake. I ended up deprecating it myself in my own game. |
| 22:07 |
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