| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:19 |
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ivanbu joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:22 |
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| 00:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> https://pbfcomics.com/comics/skub/ |
| 01:35 |
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| 02:28 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> has anyone tried to integrate mumble ever? VOIP would be really cool |
| 03:26 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> https://discord.gg/MMSzNztX |
| 03:43 |
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| 03:50 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> that's not integrated. |
| 03:50 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I'm well aware it exists, I just think it should be built in |
| 04:00 |
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| 04:36 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> > Zughy[m]: give me one example of crypto not turning into speculative assets/scam |
| 04:37 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> like people who are using crypto to send money to their family in Russia because international network cut off their banking system entirely despite their whole family don't even support Putin and his decision to begin with? |
| 04:37 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> but dually it's used for crime, so take your pick |
| 04:38 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> crimes other then scams, that is |
| 04:38 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> you could always just send cash though lol |
| 04:40 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> that's not specific to crypto, you can also use cash for crime |
| 04:41 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> cash is much more traceable, and is harder to send across the globe |
| 04:42 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> the point is just to make people realize that crypto is not just purely for crime, there are people who are using crypto for legit transaction |
| 04:42 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> it's just a different medium |
| 04:43 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I understand your point |
| 04:43 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> it's not just sending it to family, but I hear it's used also to donate to charities and funds certain particular autorotation governments would like you to not |
| 04:44 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163566800633906/1029253077640958012/unknown.png |
| 04:44 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> that feeling when authoritarian auto-corrects to autorotation |
| 04:46 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I wonder if Russia can ever be free :/ |
| 04:46 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> though now I wonder what are they doing related to crypto with minetest .. how would that relates |
| 04:46 |
MTDiscord |
<MNH48> is it like 'play to earn' type of servers? |
| 04:47 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> not super worth looking into tbh |
| 04:52 |
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| 06:44 |
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| 06:44 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> @Benrob0329#2047 Minetest took Hable's tonemapping operator, which is one of the most used 'filmic look' operators. |
| 06:46 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> We could add more or conjure some parametric curve. It does not go more that that usually |
| 06:55 |
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| 07:00 |
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| 10:52 |
Zughy[m] |
<MTDiscord> "<MNH48> like people who are..." <- They said the same thing about Pakistan and about El Salvador (in this last stance it was the president itself pushing for bitcoin). Didn't end well |
| 10:53 |
Zughy[m] |
Also, you wouldn't put kids on servers revolving around money speculation. Hell, you wouldn't allow gambling, why should you allow cryptos? |
| 10:55 |
Zughy[m] |
But that's actually a weak argument, you could say internet is not for kids (and I'd agree). Back to the main point: why are we allowing shitty servers about speculation of an internet (web 3) that goes against MT principles? |
| 11:21 |
sfan5 |
what are these principles and where do I find them? |
| 11:26 |
sfan5 |
regarding the example of gambling: I don't know, is that our responsibility to police? |
| 11:33 |
MTDiscord |
<GoodClover> Gambling sounds like something Google Play wouldn't like (unless you're using their in-app transactions) |
| 11:34 |
MTDiscord |
<GoodClover> But I guess that's have to be obvious gambling, like actual casino games |
| 11:36 |
sfan5 |
if you have an app that can connect to arbitrary sources of content I don't think you can really be held accountable for contents |
| 11:43 |
sfan5 |
what I feel is missing is a concrete reason or advantage of getting rid of that server from the list |
| 11:56 |
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| 12:04 |
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| 12:25 |
celeron55 |
"shitty server" isn't a usable argument because there are many shitty servers that aren't banned |
| 12:26 |
celeron55 |
so is the question then, should crypto-themed servers be banned specifically? |
| 12:26 |
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| 12:26 |
celeron55 |
the basis for that needs to be something else than "i don't like crypto" |
| 12:28 |
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| 12:28 |
celeron55 |
there are probably two possible reasons, 1) crypto is illegal in some places, so it could save some users from doing illegal things, 2) crypto is too close to gambling |
| 12:28 |
celeron55 |
dunno |
| 12:28 |
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| 12:29 |
celeron55 |
i'd rather base such a decision on an actual european law or recommendation or something |
| 12:51 |
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| 13:31 |
Zughy[m] |
It's "shitty" because of what it followed, not because it sucks just because it exists |
| 13:50 |
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| 13:56 |
Zughy[m] |
Anyway, sfan5: it seems to me that Minetest embraces what is called web0: https://web0.small-web.org/ |
| 13:56 |
Zughy[m] |
For sure it's the furthest thing from a capitalistic model. |
| 13:56 |
Zughy[m] |
About web3: https://vimeo.com/677162808 |
| 14:09 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> There is a lot of hype about web3, a lot of expectation about what it will be. The basics of the technologies it is supposed to be based on seem to be really good. But people can and do make a lot of scams with it feeding off all that hype. That doesn't mean that web3 is bad, just that it has been used for bad things. Much like the rest of the internet... |
| 14:10 |
hmmmm |
i don't really see any issue with a gambling-themed MT server... it's not like they're using real money and young kids are going broke |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> Well, it seems one server is using real money, as above |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> Well, with crypto |
| 14:11 |
hmmmm |
either way not our job to police |
| 14:12 |
hmmmm |
it's unfortunate for sure, but raising awareness of the negatives is better than telling people they can't have it |
| 14:12 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> It is our job to police to some extent, but it is better if that extent is only at a minimum necassary |
| 14:13 |
hmmmm |
bit of my sociopathic streak going on... what if we 'regulate' the MT casinos and demand a cut of their transactions in order to fund MT development :D |
| 14:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I've seen scant evidence that "real money" is involved in the crypto MT server. At most, a rumor that some guy "made like $20" or something. But getting real money out, if possible at all, would be convoluted, and I haven't heard anything about putting real money in. |
| 14:13 |
hmmmm |
harharhar |
| 14:13 |
rubenwardy |
I'm more concerned at the suspicious number of players |
| 14:13 |
hmmmm |
crypto is fungible |
| 14:14 |
hmmmm |
doesn't matter whether it had been traded in a game or in a chat room or in person, it's currency that can be exchanged for fiat |
| 14:14 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> ruben, what if there was a minetest.conf option for servers to opt out of using player count in serverlist rankings |
| 14:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> We could demand a percentage from servers, but I'm not sure how much minegeld it takes to fund development 😏 |
| 14:15 |
hmmmm |
if you live an acetic lifestyle like myself you should be able to get by on $100/mo for groceries |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> Not in many US cities |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> Anyhow, offtopic |
| 14:16 |
hmmmm |
definitely |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Crypto is supposedly fungible, but I'd like to hear more evidence first that this MT server is actually connected to a larger market before I could say it's fundamentally different from any other in-game currency. You could easily pay somebody real-money in exchange for in-game items, and that would be basically impossible for us to regulate too. |
| 14:17 |
hmmmm |
i was meaning to ask about the LuaVoxelManip FFI PR, what happened there? |
| 14:18 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> I think that until we get complaints about illegal behavior, we should let servers do what they like. Or, we risk the serverlist splitting up. |
| 14:19 |
hmmmm |
in any case I'm not terribly afraid of the gambling server, because kids are the vulnerable ones needing protection, and they'd have a difficult time finding an onramp under 18 (you need to be 18+ for the major cc brokers iirc) |
| 14:20 |
hmmmm |
if younger kids know how to and go through all the trouble of getting an unregulated, KYC-less on-ramp then they're probably smart enough to know not to gamble all their money away |
| 14:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> We could make the server list highly relaxed, just a dump of what's available, and users do what they like with it. We could make it highly curated, and encourage others to run alternatives with different curation to offer the desired level of user freedom. What we're doing right now is sort of in between, where we don't filter the list, but we DO heavily SORT it; our scoring metric has a big effect on where traffic gets driven for |
| 14:24 |
MTDiscord |
the bulk of users who aren't necessarily searching for something specific. |
| 14:25 |
hmmmm |
didnt realize there was a recommended sorting mechanism, is there a doc for this? |
| 14:25 |
Zughy[m] |
MisterE @MisterE:libera.chat: watch the video and you'll probably change your mind about web3 |
| 14:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> We send the list to clients pre-sorted by an internal score metric. I don't know about "documentation" per se, but since the serverlist is itself open-source, you can read the source of exactly how the score is calculated. |
| 14:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If we want to be really laissez faire (which sounds fine to me) then I think it would be better to significantly reduce the caps on score factors, and probably add in some kind of noise factor so that the list is returned with slightly (or maybe even significantly) different sorting for each user. |
| 14:27 |
hmmmm |
was trying to cheat and get somebody to link me to it lol |
| 14:28 |
Zughy[m] |
Also, AFAIK that list can be easily manipulated, showing a fake number of players to everyone |
| 14:28 |
hmmmm |
the only thing i really care about with the scoring algorithm is whether it bases part of the score on the level of traffic |
| 14:28 |
hmmmm |
yup |
| 14:28 |
hmmmm |
activity level ought to be one sorting method, not baked into the default imo, you're cutting off new servers |
| 14:29 |
Zughy[m] |
Another option is to have a curated list of recommended server, but that requires manpower |
| 14:29 |
Zughy[m] |
*servers |
| 14:29 |
hmmmm |
i feel like for the first month or so a new server should be given a bit of a boost to encourage growth |
| 14:42 |
sfan5 |
hmmmm: https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/blob/218f8d9bc5b2b4e7edf21e731a53cbca8377783d/server.py#L394-L434 |
| 14:43 |
hmmmm |
ye thanks i found it too, but i wouldn't try to make any changes here since i am 'hands off' mt right now |
| 14:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Curated lists are already possible. All you have to do is run your own serverlist. In fact, you don't have to run the whole thing, you can run a proxy that just pulls and caches the main server list and applies your own sort and filter logic. |
| 14:44 |
rubenwardy |
I did that in like 2014 |
| 14:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> hmmmm, I do appreciate your advocacy though that the serverlist should not just be making already-popular servers more popular and increasing the obscurity of already-obscure ones though :-) |
| 14:45 |
rubenwardy |
ContentDB has "Featured" packages, where editors can highlight packages to be shown on the homepage |
| 14:46 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
The serverlist is not run by "The Elders of Minetest", but a private endeavour, right? So it's up to the maintainer to make up rules and enforce them. I'd suggest to make the implicit rules more explicit. |
| 14:46 |
sfan5 |
hmmmm: we'll take suggestions :) |
| 14:48 |
hmmmm |
affirmative action works best when applied to simple problems like the MT server list imho |
| 14:49 |
hmmmm |
yeh I may as well make a PR |
| 14:49 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
If the forumw as not in the state it is, I'd suggest if you want a more curated list, then add a link to the forum thread to the list, where people can easily take a look or give feedback or even contact the owner. |
| 14:52 |
rubenwardy |
I think that the serverlist should promote servers that are run well, with something unique and a history of staying around |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The first and third are feasible via automated metrics, but that "something unique" strongly suggests human curation of a promoted list. |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Maybe the strategy with the serverlist should be along the lines of making it easier to choose custom curation options, then. |
| 14:55 |
rubenwardy |
I have been wondering about adding server reviews to contentdb, but I don't want to deal with :-1: THEY BANNED ME as 99% of the time the "unjustified" ban was justified |
| 14:56 |
rubenwardy |
more filtering options, server banners/images, and a link to their website could help servers stand out more without missing |
| 14:56 |
rubenwardy |
-without missing |
| 14:57 |
AliasAlreadyTake |
What is the purpose of the server list? How do other games deal with the same problem? |
| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<LandarVargan> You can search the review for banned and queue it for moderation :P |
| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't feel like the "Featured" thing in CDB has been living up to what I had hoped for it, i.e. we don't really review or cycle through things regularly enough and even with extensive criteria, it still feels rather ad-hoc. I would want to see CDB Featured flags become more objective and consistent before we expand it to other systems. |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'd be careful about copying what other games do, because I think fairness and objectivity are major goals of this project that may not apply to other projects, e.g. commercial games may be more focused on making the game look good and sell more copies, not necessarily to make the server-hosting experience rewarding. |
| 15:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Re: server reviews, we could just search for "👎 they banned me" and turn them all into "👍 actively moderated" 😏 |
| 16:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> the featured thing never really was fully finished either, i think? the plan was to have them also featured in the "main menu rewrite" if that ever happens. |
| 16:12 |
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| 16:43 |
rubenwardy |
that would need to be a difference feature |
| 16:43 |
rubenwardy |
that's what it was intended to be, but it ended up being a random highlight |
| 16:49 |
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| 17:19 |
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| 17:36 |
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| 17:58 |
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| 19:46 |
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