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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2022-08-01

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10:11 Zughy[m] Hello, I need more power on GH if you want me to actually manage every issue. I can't move them, I can't rename them, I can't edit comments. Yes, I know that the next step means I can also push to master, but I also think you know me well enough to know I won't ever do that
10:22 Zughy[m] also, reminder that in a few months the roadmap should be discussed again, as in October it will have been two years since the first one was created (#10461). To make life easier for everyone, this could happen after 5.7 is out
10:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10461 -- Roadmap Brainstorm
10:23 Zughy[m] (the issue was created in October, then it took almost a year to have the roadmap, June 2021)
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10:46 MTDiscord <luatic> Not that I have any say in this, but I'd be fine with you pushing to master as long as you stick to stuff you can properly review (which likely excludes most C++ stuff).
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12:06 * kilbith handles the power to Zughy to ban erleshit
12:21 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: Calm the fuck down
12:21 MTDiscord <luatic> erle has different priorities than you (and probably most of the core devs), I get it
12:21 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> do we have a way to tell the commit has at wich irrlitch is supposed to build with the 5.5.1 minetest release?
12:21 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> *hash
12:22 MTDiscord <luatic> no need for a ban though, erle is definitely still a net plus
12:23 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> I'm testing some AppImage builds for me to test RC/Dev versions but I failed to compile tag 5.5.1 with irrlitch master
12:23 rubenwardy the release says it
12:23 rubenwardy use 1.9.0mt5
12:24 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> got it, thanks!
12:32 MTDiscord <wwar> #12610
12:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12610 -- Cant pickup cart
12:32 MTDiscord <wwar> if anyone cares to decrease the number of issues ^
12:34 rubenwardy sounds like it should be made possible to sneak then long tap
12:34 MTDiscord <wwar> yes it should and already made an issue :)
12:35 MTDiscord <wwar> #11404
12:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11404 -- Android: Can't use sneak/aux while digging or punching
12:35 rubenwardy right, helpful to point out the duplicate
12:35 rubenwardy found it
12:36 MTDiscord <wwar> > right, helpful to point out the duplicate removing carts IS possible in android
12:37 MTDiscord <wwar> so the other issue is not really a bug
12:37 rubenwardy what the issue says isn't necessarily what the issue is about
12:37 kilbith rubenwardy: do you read my feedbacks on CDB?
12:37 MTDiscord <wwar> > what the issue says isn't necessarily what the issue is about i thought it was about picking up carts
12:38 MTDiscord <wwar> anyway, it will be a lot better to tweak the way long tapping works
12:38 rubenwardy the user had an issue picking up carts. The cause is due to that bug. So if the previous issue didn't exist, I would have changed the title of the carts issue to "Can't use sneak/aux while digging or punching"
12:38 MTDiscord <wwar> alright
12:38 rubenwardy kilbith: I drafted a reply but didn't finish writing
12:48 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> Would it worth sending a Pull Request to get AppImage build as part of the CI in Github repo? I spent a few time doing it in a way that seems to be reasonable to share upstream instead of keeping an unofficial repo for it.
12:50 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> I can prepare a PR with the adjusted scripts if needed: https://github.com/ronoaldo/minetestclient
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13:04 sfan5 there's an app image build on gitlab ci IIRC
13:04 sfan5 just nobody ever uses them
13:08 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> oh, well, there is indeed one at Gitlab CI. it is a bit hard to find if you're not familiar with the Jobs UI but it is there indeed - so no need to duplicate that. I was a good learning anyway \o/
13:09 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> I do find AppImage an easy to grab-and-go, specially useful for new Linux users. Packaged versions from Distros (Debian, Ubuntu) are outdated, and with the single file download it is an interesting option as a canonical/universal release.
13:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Universal sure, but canonical ... that'd be the snap, right?  😏
13:11 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> definitely!
13:12 schwarzwald[m] sfan5: Lies, all lies! I use the AppImage lol.
13:14 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> Yeah, I use the Bitwarden (with auto-updates using appimagelauncher from Debian) and it works like a charm. It is the upstream default Linux packaging too.
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13:34 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> There seems to be an issue with the current Gitlab AppImage - the same I faced when trying to build on my machine. It uses on Ubuntu Bionic to fetch dependencies, and it is almost a decade old.
13:35 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> The mismatch of the Ubuntu version causes some issues like not having all the .so dependencies or not in the correct versions as used during the build stage, or having too old libs in place and causing it to crach when open: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/ef26cb87/
13:36 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> schwarzwald[m]: what .AppImage you use? Or do you use it on Ubuntu itself?
13:38 MTDiscord <luatic> Ronoaldo: Bionic Beaver is 18.04 and "only" 4 years old, meaning LTS is about to expire?
13:38 MTDiscord <luatic> Or were you referring to the machine whan you stated "and it is almost a decade old"?
13:38 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> oh, my bad - I tought it was 14 something and rounded up 2 yesr
13:38 MTDiscord <luatic> ah I see
13:39 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> then I'm not sure why the AppImage file don't launch properly on my Debian 11 host
13:39 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> It complains about Open GL drivers and I tought it was about either opengl .so or perhaps it is mesa on host?
13:40 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> I also think that there needs to be a directive to fix the missing system-wide folders - after that, my .appimage build worked.
13:40 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> Specifically the path_mappings directive: https://github.com/ronoaldo/minetestclient/blob/main/AppImageBuilder.yml
13:40 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> I used Debian to match my host build but it should work just fine on .AppImage
13:45 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> I'll test on a VM to make sure it is not something with my host OS.
13:54 schwarzwald[m] Ronoaldo: I downloaded the AppImage from the Minetest downloads page I think, and I use it on Debian 11. I haven't updated it in quite a while, so it's possible there's a problem only in the newer version.
13:57 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> thanks! I failed to find it on the site download. I did found an unofficial build on forums; since the github don't have the sources/log of the build, I went cautious on that one.
14:03 rubenwardy the minetest readme doesn't say how to install xinput
14:03 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> xinput indeed is missing from the AppImage file as well.. perhaps that is the issue?
14:03 rubenwardy what's the package on ubuntu?    libxcb-xinput-dev and xinput?
14:04 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> on bionic I think it is libxi-dev and libxi6 https://packages.ubuntu.com/bionic/libxi6
14:05 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> From the source package: https://packages.ubuntu.com/source/bionic/libxi
14:05 rubenwardy aga
14:05 rubenwardy *aha
14:05 rubenwardy that is in the list
14:05 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> I guess it is missing from here, right? https://gitlab.com/minetest/minetest/-/blob/master/AppImageBuilder.yml
14:06 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> include: directive do not mentions that one.
14:10 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> it "just worked" on a Ubuntu 18.04 vm fresh install
14:15 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> It failed the same way on Ubuntu 22.04 (I also had to manually install lib Fuse - it was not a download and run experience as I expected it to be).
14:20 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> https://imgur.com/a/pb0Yn5v
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14:23 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> Nice, Github artifacts only work for authenticated users, not for guests 😕
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15:50 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> yeah, appimage is still messy (at least to what I could understand of it). build on Debian, don't run on Ubuntu. And vice versa!
15:50 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> so not as portable as I was thinking
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15:53 sfan5 "Github artifacts only work for authenticated users, not for guests 😕" yes, that's a reason not to use githubs CI
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16:08 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> so far I managed to have either it working on Debian11+Ubuntu22.04 or on Ubuntu18.04 - not able to build/test any appimage working on all options
16:08 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> all options = all three
16:10 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> Regardless of the version combo, the seg fault is consistently preceeded by this 'Irrlicht: OpenGL driver version is not 1.2 or better.'
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16:31 MTDiscord <Jordach> oh for gods sake, what noise source is Minetest actually using
16:31 MTDiscord <Jordach> it's not reference Perlin
16:35 schwarzwald[m] Who knows, it might be a custom noise algorithm!
16:44 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> Whenever I read noise I immediately think about someone screaming at the PC to make the noise and generate the world 😛
16:54 Calinou that could be a valid source of entropy
16:54 Calinou (like how generating a GPG key requires you to move the mouse around)
17:03 kilbith we could actually drop Perlin noise and adopt std::mt15537 alongside with std::uniform_{int,random}_distribution
17:03 kilbith bonus: you use the STD; cons: it breaks the maps
17:04 kilbith s/D/L
17:04 kilbith * std::19937
17:06 schwarzwald[m] Is Mersenne Twister really a drop-in replacement for a noise algorithm? Perlin noise smooths out the gradients by interpolating between adjacent points in the noise map IIRC.
17:06 MTDiscord <Jordach> i'm in the depths of mapgen and noticed heinous issuews
17:07 MTDiscord <Jordach> like how 3d noise is heinously inefficient in terms of CPU time
17:07 schwarzwald[m] Jordach is dug too greedily and too deep.
17:07 MTDiscord <Jordach> not too deep
17:07 MTDiscord <Jordach> found out even the C++ implementations are a garbage fire
17:08 MTDiscord <Jordach> i might write an interface for Lua that gives access to reference perlin noise as well as engine
17:08 schwarzwald[m] By reference perlin noise you mean the reference implementation as defined by the spec?
17:11 MTDiscord <Jordach> yes
17:11 MTDiscord <Jordach> what we have has axial issues
17:11 MTDiscord <Jordach> certain mapchunk regions have gridding
17:11 schwarzwald[m] That's awesome - that you're adding a good Perlin noise implementation, not that we have issues.
17:12 MTDiscord <Jordach> it is quite amusing that the more i dug into the C++ mapgen the more cockroaches i found
17:12 schwarzwald[m] If anybody knows why we didn't use a regular Perlin noise in the first place, I want to hear it lol.
17:14 schwarzwald[m] Jordach, if you reach the deepest possible depth in a Minetest world at a specific set of coordinates that vary slightly due to undefined behavior, you find where the mapgen code is sealed up in mossy cobble, and the walls covered with an inch thick layer of giant cockroaches.
17:15 schwarzwald[m] And the game will crash because it can't handle all those entities at once.
17:15 MTDiscord <Jordach> spoiler alert 10s of thousands of lua objects don't bother the server
17:16 MTDiscord <Jordach> the suspiciously high limit doesn't get upset that mucch
17:18 schwarzwald[m] Ah. Well, the legend has to take some poetic license.
17:20 schwarzwald[m] If we make sure the new noise implementation doesn't have undefined integer overflow that would also fix some cases detected with the current noise code.
17:21 MTDiscord <Jordach> it's not like s32 exists
17:21 schwarzwald[m] Why do we use s32 instead of std::int32_t BTW?
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17:21 MTDiscord <Jordach> it's signed
17:22 schwarzwald[m] They both are signed.
17:22 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> what is s32? ¬¬
17:22 schwarzwald[m] std::uint32_t would be equivalent to Irrlicht's u32 type.
17:23 schwarzwald[m] I'm curious why we use Irrlicht integer types in general, when the STL provides fixed width integer types even since C++11.
17:24 rubenwardy Irrlicht was created before C++11
17:24 rubenwardy same for Minetest
17:24 rubenwardy they should replaced by STL types
17:25 schwarzwald[m] A fair enough reason! I had a phobia of using STL types because it looked like we preferred Irrlicht's. xD
17:26 MTDiscord <Jordach> if we use irrlichts it means we have consistency and during the rip out procedure a handful of #typedefs will fix any older code
17:26 sfan5 s16 is defined to be int16_t
17:26 sfan5 replacing any types in existing code is pointless busywork
17:31 rubenwardy oh right. s16 is better than int16_t then
17:31 rubenwardy I typedef/using int16_t to s16 in my own projects
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17:32 MTDiscord <luatic> schwarzwald: When Jordach says "the server" he means "his server, when run in singleplayer mode or only with a couple clients"
17:33 MTDiscord <luatic> 10s of thousands of entities generate abhorrent amounts of traffic
17:33 MTDiscord <luatic> and practically everything related to them is linear if not quadratic time
17:33 MTDiscord <luatic> apparently Jordach's Ryzen can somewhat cope, but that doesn't mean that many entities are even remotely efficient
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18:29 MTDiscord <exe_virus> They could be better, a lot better
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19:16 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> server-only builds now require the custom irrlitch right?
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19:18 MTDiscord <x2048> Using irrlichtmt is the safest option
19:19 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> irrlichtmt is required now
19:19 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> for server builds
19:24 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> thanks!
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19:32 MTDiscord <Jordach> i've implemented a standalone reference version of perlin because i'm trying to find out why minetest's noise implementation is so slow
19:33 MTDiscord <Jordach> 80^3 noise samples should not be taking 10ms on a modern Ryzen CPU
19:33 MTDiscord <Jordach> it's perlin without octaves etc
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19:38 MTDiscord <Jordach> whatever is struggling to be -O3'd i'd like to find out
19:47 MTDiscord <Ronoaldo> probably a dumb question but this is without relying on disk i/o right?
20:08 MTDiscord <Jordach> yes
20:09 MTDiscord <Jordach> i'll probably hook up the reference perlin to mods that want the initial perlin paper version as a way to test if minetest's noise is actually right
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22:02 rubenwardy can settingtypes.txt readable names have () in them?
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23:00 ShadowNinja Regarding mapgen noise: We could look into using Simplex noise.  We used to avoid it for patent reasons, but the patent apparently expired earlier this year.
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23:21 Zughy[m] can anyone with a mac confirm #12507 please ?
23:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12507 -- Plus key does not detect on macOS
23:21 Zughy[m] same with #11791
23:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11791 -- Shift-click in inventory not working
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23:59 MTDiscord <Jordach> good news, my reference implementation works flawlessly

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