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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2022-04-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:37 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Or consider documenting it:)
00:39 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^this
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12:21 erle celeron55 in voxel.cpp, line 117, there is c = 'a' + (light-10). however, light is an u8 and c is a char. why did you write it that way? also, does this intentionally truncate the result of 'a' + (light - 10) or does this just never come up in practice?
12:24 rubenwardy Wtf
12:24 erle ?
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13:05 MTDiscord <savilli> I didn't read the code, but I bet that 0 <= light <= 15
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14:33 celeron55 hmm
14:33 celeron55 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
14:33 celeron55 why is Bitstream Vera listed in there
14:33 celeron55 it's not included here, right? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/tree/master/fonts
14:34 celeron55 or am i blind
14:36 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> wasn't it one of the old bitmap fonts?
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15:35 MTDiscord <FatalError42> celeron55 are you aware of the game in violation of minetest's license (i.e. there's no reference to your copyright of it, or its licensing) being uploaded and sold for money? Its also in violation of a number of other licenses
15:36 MTDiscord <FatalError42> Its called "makeworld" its on itch.io
15:38 celeron55 "the game"? i would guess there are tens of those
15:39 MTDiscord <FatalError42> Probably
15:40 MTDiscord <FatalError42> The maker is actually in this discord
15:40 MTDiscord <FatalError42> Lmk if you want me to ping him or something
15:40 MTDiscord <FatalError42> You're the only one who can really do anything
15:40 MTDiscord <FatalError42> Bc you're the license holder
15:41 ROllerozxa FatalError42: excuse me this is IRC
15:41 MTDiscord <FatalError42> Oh its dev irc
15:41 MTDiscord <FatalError42> Whoops
15:42 ROllerozxa anyways I don't think there would be any actions c55 could take when enforcing the Minetest license against the project, the only proper license violations would be of the CC-BY-NC-SA used by one or two mods in the game.
15:44 ROllerozxa there is no modified source code to publish and while he might not be giving proper attribution to the Minetest engine the binary is still clearly labelled as "Minetest".
15:46 MTDiscord <FatalError42> No, the license doesnt exist, its being distributed unlicensed
15:46 MTDiscord <FatalError42> He violated it by ya know... removing it
15:46 MTDiscord <FatalError42> 🤷
15:47 celeron55 the most i can do is a DMCA takedown request and that will result in them adding the license file. worth the time? no
15:48 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> I maintain that it's better to encourage fixing the licensing than making legal challenges anyway
15:49 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> I haven't really been paying much attention though
15:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I think people mostly just don't license properly because they fundamentally misunderstand licensing.
15:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The license file says a bunch of stuff you're not allowed to do with the thing, or things you must do, so people think they can just delete the file and then they don't have to do those things anymore XD
15:50 MTDiscord <FatalError42> I cant even find the license file in mt's file tbf
15:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean, they're right, they don't have to do those things anymore, but they also can't use the software at all anymore either.
15:54 celeron55 it's not that complicated though
15:56 celeron55 it's like you found a cake while walking to somewhere. if there's no piece of paper on it saying what you are allowed to do with it, don't touch it
15:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I don't think your analogy works because the reasons are different, i.e. your first thought wouldn't be "this is probably somebody else's" as much as "who the fuck leaves a cake just sitting in the middle of the sidewalk"
15:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also, if there WERE a piece of paper on the cake saying what I'm allowed to do with it, outside of some specific contexts I probably wouldn't touch it anyway for a lot of the same reasons :-D
15:59 celeron55 well, if you think you should sell someone's FOSS software as-is for money, finding FOSS software is just as absurd as finding a cake
16:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Selling FOSS for money is not inherently wrong.  You justify the price with the value you add.  If you're just selling the software unmodified, you have to find other ways to add value, and it makes it hard to add a lot of value.  But there are completely FOSS projects that are available at-cost on e.g. app store platforms, and what you're paying for is convenience, trust, and the feeling that you're contributing something to the
16:01 MTDiscord creator.
16:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I guess part of the idea behind FOSS though is that if we COULD live in a world where you could just walk down the sidewalk and have free cake, wouldn't you want to?  :-D
16:03 MTDiscord <Warr1024> On some level, FOSS licensing is a workaround for the bug wherein FOSS isn't the default.
16:04 celeron55 well, the problem with FOSS is that people are incredibly bad at judging value
16:05 celeron55 with basically just a few marketing tricks you can get people to pay for something they'd have never even looked at
16:05 celeron55 and not just a little money
16:05 celeron55 think cars or houses
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16:17 erle <Hugues Ross> I maintain that it's better to encourage fixing the licensing than making legal challenges anyway
16:18 erle note that longer licenses can point out exactly what has to be done to be compliant again
16:19 erle FatalError42 is it this game? https://itch.io/t/2008516/makeworld-released-
16:20 erle i look at it https://harsh-lakhan.itch.io/makeworld
16:20 ROllerozxa yeah that's the game
16:21 erle there is a report link
16:21 erle i clicked it
16:22 erle and they explicitly have “uploader not authorized to distribute” and a free text field
16:22 erle FatalError42 how do you *know* that this game is minetest reskinned? can you provide me a link to the binary?
16:24 erle the screenshots (?) have a LOT of blur, which i have never had in minetest
16:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> IIRC somebody actually bought a copy so they could download it, and then inspected the contents.
16:25 erle i clicked on the ”more” and it says “LicenseGNU Lesser General Public License v2.1 (LGPL)”
16:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It contained a lot of different MT stuff, including some that were licensed under non-commercial terms only.
16:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's a compilation including like a couple thousand mods or something.
16:26 Zughy[m] celeron55: Minetest NFTs
16:26 rubenwardy ban
16:27 erle according to their own post here the author has gotten 5 downloads. at 4 dollars each, that makes 20 dollars for collecting a lot of mods. i doubt that comes out to more than minimum wage in any developed country.
16:27 erle https://harsh-lakhan.itch.io/makeworld/devlog/363669/14-days-after-launch
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16:29 erle Warr1024 that someone can just upload their copy if the game is LGPL 2.1 lol
16:29 erle if → of
16:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, the way I see it, if they're only charging like $5 a copy, it's not implausible that someone would be willing to pay that just for the convenience of getting a pre-packaged compilation all in one download.
16:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's really just the few non-commercial-restricted mods in there that are the problem; if they just remove those, and comply with the rest of the licenses (more or less just not deleting the license files, really) then it's not really all that "wrong"
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16:40 celeron55 yes it's fine, and now go do yours at just $2 a copy
16:40 erle Warr1024 lack of attribution is an issue though
16:40 celeron55 you don't even have to make anything, just take it and lower the price, and do a bit of marketing
16:40 erle sell it for 3,89$
16:41 erle well, my german locale shines through again
16:41 Pexin minegeld
16:42 erle <FatalError42> The maker is actually in this discord
16:42 erle FatalError42 ping that person and we can explain to him the situation
16:43 erle but maybe in #minetest and not here, unless the shader thing they did is something they want to contribute
16:43 erle i think she blur is some shader stuff?
16:43 erle the
16:44 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> I'm not sure if they're aware of the specific NC issue, but they've been told about licensing issues in general and said they'd work to resolve them
16:44 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> I haven't really been paying attention to the discord though
16:45 erle FatalError42 btw, anyone who has contributed to minetest or the bundled mods can do something about a license violation.
16:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Is that blur a shader, or is it a filter applied in photoshop after taking the screenshot?  :-)
16:45 ROllerozxa the shader stuff is a paid reshade shader that's included if you pay a bit more for the game
16:45 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> ^
16:46 erle what is a “paid reshade” type of shader? i have never heard of that
16:46 ROllerozxa whether he has permission to use that shader as well is up for debate though... >.>
16:46 erle is this some 3d industry term?
16:46 erle oh lol
16:46 erle you mean it is bought and resold
16:47 ROllerozxa erle: reshade is a thing for windows that allows you to inject opengl or directx to add custom shaders in games, usually proprietary ones
16:47 erle oh
16:47 erle thanks
16:48 erle celeron55 btw, i am not interested in the difference between char and u8 in particular, i can look that up. i just wondered why that code was written that way back in 2012.
16:50 erle Warr1024 ROllerozxa the shader effect reminds me of this, which i find very cute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_faking
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18:34 sfan5 just found out the Minetest snap is still on 5.4.1, guess we can't keep recommending that on the website either
18:38 celeron55 erle: if you read the adjacent lines you can see it's converting the light value to hexadecimal. and as you were already answered by other people, the light value is a 4 bit value, it cannot be too large
18:39 celeron55 it's utilizing the fact that in ascii digits and letters are consecutive characters
18:39 celeron55 (alphabetically)
18:47 sfan5 the flatpak on the other hand is up-to-date and doesn't have the bug where locales don't work
18:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I used to use the snap, switched to flatpak, and yeah, the experience is much better.
18:57 erle celeron55 oh, now i get it. thanks!
18:59 erle it's another “the type of the variable is more broad than what is ever stored in it” situation. i seem to trip over those a lot.
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19:03 celeron55 you could make some convoluted or slow types to limit the range but it's not worth it
19:03 celeron55 or add some & 0x0f in there, which wouldn't be slow or convoluted but eh, it's just not needed
19:03 sfan5 I propose we beautify the code by replacing 'u8 light' with 'unsigned light:4' everywhere
19:08 erle a simple assertion would have spared me the headscratching here
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19:11 erle celeron55 thank you for answering. i go off researching bit fields ;>
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19:35 v-rob[m] `unsigned light:4` isn't C++y enough.  Gotta do `std::bitset<4> light` for all local variables
19:39 MTDiscord <gpcf> The paid minetest thing above includes advtrains, which is under AGPL. shouldn't this be a pretty blatant violation of our copyrights, since we aren't credited anywhere?
19:39 MTDiscord <gpcf> (and the distributor of that modpack claims that his modpack is under LGPL)
19:40 erle gpcf report it using the ”report” link at the bottom if you are affected
19:41 erle sfan5 would it be “unsigned int light : 4” though?
19:41 sfan5 `unsigned` is a valid type
19:41 erle i learn so much today
19:41 sfan5 in C at least, but I'm pretty sure C++ does not diverge from this
19:42 erle > types can be modified using the keywords signed, unsigned, short, and long. When one of these type modifiers is used by itself, a data type of int is assumed
19:43 MTDiscord <gpcf> reported
19:58 erle sfan5 i think bit fields can only be used inside structured data types, or am i missing something here?
19:59 sfan5 true
19:59 sfan5 you can always declare an inline struct
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20:16 x2048 (which would always use at least 32 bits anyway, I guess)
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21:42 v-rob[m] Hmm, inline structs would be some beautiful code: `struct { unsigned amount: 4 } light = {5}; light.amount = 6;` kind of stuff everywhere.
21:42 v-rob[m] Would have made a great April Fools PR
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